219 réponses à ce sujet

[Necrotron]

Sarevok Synder wrote...

I don't believe in the no-win scenario.

Me neither, but apparently Bioware does.  And their artistic vision is to make sure that crushing despair is the final outcome of this series.

[Oldbones2]

someguy1231 wrote...

That depends on what you mean by "win".

*SPOILERS for major games ahead!*

Red Dead Redemption - John Marston dies. You can't avoid this.
Halo Reach - The squad dies and the planet is glassed. You can't avoid this.
Halo 3 - Master Chief is stranded in space. You can't avoid this.
God of War 3 - Kratos (probably) dies. You can't avoid this.
Planescape Torment - The Nameless One dies (permanently). You can't avoid this.
LA Noire - Cole dies. You can't avoid this.

"Winning" a game need not require that the player character live, or the game's ending is happy. The difference with all these games, compared to ME3's, is that their endings make sense.

Red Dead Redemption - John Marston dies. You can't avoid this. - never played, but dont you get your revenge or something?
Halo Reach - The squad dies and the planet is glassed. You can't avoid this. - Your objective was never to save Reach
Halo 3 - Master Chief is stranded in space. You can't avoid this. - AFTER you saved the galaxy
God of War 3 - Kratos (probably) dies. You can't avoid this. - After you destroy the gods (revenge) and give new hope to the world
Planescape Torment - The Nameless One dies (permanently). You can't avoid this. - Which you knew was going to happen, you were just trying to stop the transcendant one.
LA Noire - Cole dies. You can't avoid this. - And so does the villain.

[The Protheans]

There needs to be a way to win and lose.
Not a middle ground where you get nothing.

[PaxtonFetel]

In ME3 has already killed millions, destroyed dozens of planets, thousands turned into slaves of the reapers. Die friends Shepard. But BW this is not enough and it all ends up crap.

[Sarah_SR2]

Back in the old days of 1 coin 1 play arcade games, the game always ended with GAME OVER. No matter what you did, however well you played and no matter how great you became at a game, you always had to lose your last life at some point. Even if that meant giving up all your remaining lives as the arcade was about to shut. Losing was just a part if the game back then but some of us took longer to lose than others... )

[someone else]

....ugh - this thread disgusts me. "Winning" is such a machismo, chauvinistic concept - really we all need to learn that success, achievement, a sense of individual fulfillment are just the poisonous excretions of our western, racist, male-dominated imperialist culture.

The sooner we learn to accept total and unquestioned equality, that no resolution is a good resolution, and that the consequences of our actions are best determined by those whom the majority have decided really know what is best for us, the sooner we can stop arguing and attempting to think for ourselves.

...no wonder it was the OP's dad (an old, unregenerate male, no doubt) who came up with this absurd idea in the first place.

Modifié par someone else, 16 avril 2012 - 12:36 .

[Lavits75]

someguy1231 wrote...

That depends on what you mean by "win".

*SPOILERS for major games ahead!*

Red Dead Redemption - John Marston dies. You can't avoid this.
Halo Reach - The squad dies and the planet is glassed. You can't avoid this.
Halo 3 - Master Chief is stranded in space. You can't avoid this.
God of War 3 - Kratos (probably) dies. You can't avoid this.
Planescape Torment - The Nameless One dies (permanently). You can't avoid this.
LA Noire - Cole dies. You can't avoid this.

"Winning" a game need not require that the player character live, or the game's ending is happy. The difference with all these games, compared to ME3's, is that their endings make sense.

Red Dead Redemption - John Marstons son kills the agent that killed his father. You get revenge, you're satisfied.
Halo: Reach - The squad dies, but you get Cortana off world and save humanity in the long run. You sacrifice yourself for the bigger picture, you feel satisfied.
Halo 3 - Master Cheif gets stranded in space but saves humanity and ends the war. He's coming back for a forth game, you feel satisfied
God of War 3 - Kratos dies but kills the gods, exacts revenge, and the world has hope. You feel satisfied.
Planescape Torment - Nameless One dies but the Transcendant One is stopped. You feel satisfied.
LA Noire - Cole gives his life stopping the villain. You feel satisfied.

Mass Effect 3 - Due to space magic, the galaxy is cut off, the races are stranded, and earth is destroyed. Your love interest is trapped on a planet after he/she betray you and ran away with the rest of your "loyal" crew. Shepard dies no matter what. You..... want to kill yourself.

See the difference?

[Shep1287]

Alibenbaba wrote...

You can lose and still win.

Interesting sentence. It is an unfamiliar type of victory! For me, I would be lying if I didn't feel some sense of accomplishment reaching the end of ME3 or the end of ME2 for that matter. Is that enough to claim it as a win though? ME2 did have a more fuller finish to it than ME3 where you knew the fate of your commarades, for example. But not knowing creates mystery. As long as some kind of emotional response is given it's a win win for the creator. I would get ME4 if it came out. Anyone?

Modifié par Shep1287, 16 avril 2012 - 01:19 .

[halbert986]

the only way to win is not to play

[MaxMcKay]

DoctorCrowtgamer wrote...

We can go on about video games as art and if Bioware lied and all this other stuff but I think my dad said it best when talking about this the other day when he said..."there has to be a way to win in a video game".

No matter what you do in Mass Effect you end up losing in some form or another and video games at their most basic are things people play to have fun and win with. A video game that gives you no way to win is pretty pointless in the end.  I mean it's not like a movie or a book where you are watching someone else do all the work,you are doing the work and the reason you keep playing is to beat the game.

I think

"there needs to be a way to win in a video game" sums everything up nicely.

Anyone else agree?

It's not artistic enough anymore :innocent:

[AeonOfTime]

It sums it up pretty nicely indeed.

Granted, you can save the universe from the reaper threat, which is a victory. So why does the end feel like a big "GAME OVER" sign? If I want drama, I'll watch a Hollywood movie with a similar crappy end.

If I play a game, I expect to be able to win it without a shadow of a doubt. Simple, really.

[ChickenMan77]

halbert986 wrote...

the only way to win is not to play

Yep, pretty much the WOPR got it right

[FS3D]

MaximizedAction wrote...

"there needs to be a way to win in a video game"

This one goes right into my signature. Beautifully short sum up of the ME3 ending.

Yeah that's going in my sig too.

[BDelacroix]

mass perfection wrote...

"Boss fights makes it feel to video gamey"

Yea, that one was some funny logic.  Like the day my boss said to me I look at the ** computer too much.

I'm a computer scientist.  My job is to look at computers.  I get paid to do it.

[FS3D]

someone else wrote...

....ugh - this thread disgusts me.

Good for you. You don't get anything for that. Other people feel differently, and you invalidating their feelings with this tripe of yours doesn't change their right to feel as they do.

"Winning" is such a machismo, chauvinistic concept

What?! Are you really playing the sexism card here?

I just want to know I'm really reading this nonsense.

really we all need to learn that success, achievement, a sense of individual fulfillment are just the poisonous excretions of our western, racist, male-dominated imperialist culture.

There's something seriously wrong with you if you think that being successful at something is a bad thing. It's not "western", "racist", or "male-dominated" if women, people of different ethnicities and cultural backgrounds also value being successful in different ways.

You're sickeningly vile to state that there is something wrong with wanting to succeed at something... And in any event... This is a GAME. The point of a GAME is to ESCAPE REALITY in an interactive medium. Part of ESCAPING REALITY is to satisfy the ego's need for success and fulfilment. Every human being on the planet has an ego, and that includes you, whether you want to acknowledge that fact or not.

The sooner we learn to accept total and unquestioned equality-

Unfortunately, people do not have equal capabilities and equal drive, so this is pretty much impossible. I much prefer a meritocracy where people are reqarded based on their abilities and what they do for society.

that no resolution is a good resolution

This is flat out wrong. If you are given two choices, one of them being to kill everyone off in order to stop... Say... Prostitution, and the other being to provider a better level of sex education to people in order to minimise risks... These two choices are not equal, and the education one is preferable, and most definitely GOOD compared to killing off the entire species to deal with a problem.

and that the consequences of our actions are best determined by those whom the majority have decided really know what is best for us

Really? What about individual freedom? I'm not a Libertarian Fundamentalist by any stretch of the imagination, but neither am I a communist.  People have a right to try to do well in their own lives, and what you appear to be suggesting is that this is somehow wrong.

You are wrong for making such a suggestion.

the sooner we can stop arguing and attempting to think for ourselves.

Thinking for yourself? Really? This is internally inconsistent with the statements you made arguing against "western" ideals and "success".

...no wonder it was the OP's dad (an old, unregenerate male, no doubt)-

An ad hominem attack combined with an appeal to ridicule. Congratulations, you just lost the argument.

who came up with this absurd idea in the first place.

The only thing that's absurd is your disgusting attitude in attacking people who value achievement and success.

[MinatheBrat]

halbert986 wrote...

the only way to win is not to play

^This. Yay! I'm not the only one who's seen that movie! LOL Totally went thru my head in wopr's voice.

[The Night Mammoth]

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

DoctorCrowtgamer wrote...

We can go on about video games as art and if Bioware lied and all this other stuff but I think my dad said it best when talking about this the other day when he said..."there has to be a way to win in a video game".

No matter what you do in Mass Effect you end up losing in some form or another and video games at their most basic are things people play to have fun and win with. A video game that gives you no way to win is pretty pointless in the end.  I mean it's not like a movie or a book where you are watching someone else do all the work,you are doing the work and the reason you keep playing is to beat the game.

I think

"there needs to be a way to win in a video game" sums everything up nicely.

Anyone else agree?

You clearly didn't play Mass Effect 3. Or at least the Mass Effect 3 I played.

Because, in the Mass Effect 3 I played, the Reapers were destroyed.

If you choose the red door. Choosing that of course means you kill EDI and genocide the Geth. 

Ergo, we won.

You won. My Shepard failed to achieve his goal. 

That's what the entire story was about, regardless of attraction to squadmates and whatnot. The point of this trilogy was to defeat the Reapers...and they were defeated. Or at least can be, with one option.

Try again.

Ultimately, yes. 

The mechanisms through which you achieve that goal are debatable in their necessity. 

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 16 avril 2012 - 02:17 .

[rfalzar]

DoctorCrowtgamer wrote...

Eain wrote...

It's a quote that, while truthful, won't appeal to a man who cuts bossfights because they feel too video-gamey. Bioware was more interested in creating an interactive story than an actual game, and while I applaud that effort, that also meant they should've used someone with actual writing talent as a lead writer.

If Bioware wants to make art then why don't they just make CGI movies?  As I said it's the fact that you do all the work that makes it so winning needs to at least be an option in video games.  If you can't win why do the work?

If Bioware wanted to make art they would've kept the vision that Mr. Karpyshyn had for the game instead of rewriting it and making a lot of the foreshadowing in ME2 null. Simple as that.

[Drimberly]

somtimes when I play ME I just think...why? and go off to slice up some unholy fiends elsewhere..

[warrior256]

I have no problem with there being ending where you lose or you win but at a high cost. I just think there should be the OPTION of being able to triumphantly crush the reapers and be declared the savior of the galaxy. Right now I get the feeling that my character just put Hitler to shame in the evilness scale. He destroyed Galactic civilization and probably caused the death of billions of innocent people. How is that uplifting or inspiring?

[warrior256]

someone else wrote...

....ugh - this thread disgusts me. "Winning" is such a machismo, chauvinistic concept - really we all need to learn that success, achievement, a sense of individual fulfillment are just the poisonous excretions of our western, racist, male-dominated imperialist culture.

The sooner we learn to accept total and unquestioned equality, that no resolution is a good resolution, and that the consequences of our actions are best determined by those whom the majority have decided really know what is best for us, the sooner we can stop arguing and attempting to think for ourselves.

...no wonder it was the OP's dad (an old, unregenerate male, no doubt) who came up with this absurd idea in the first place.

This board is hardly the place for your communist talk buddy. If you want to talk about politics then go to a board discussing politics. When you are ready to talk about Mass Effect then feel free to come back. By the way, God bless the West!