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A lot of this is OUR fault.


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#1
Mordimor

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We all sit here and whine and groan about how Bioware doesn't consider or listen to its fans enough, and that most of the problems with ME3 are because of that.

However, I think that the case is just the opposite; Bioware listens to us, and they listen to us too much.  Have any of us stopped to think that the ending we got, the absense of a final boss fight, and several other unfavorable changes made to the Mass Effect series could be directly attributed to us?

Think about it: countless people complained about the Mako, trash loot system and bland planetside exploration in ME1.  Lo and behold, all those things were taken out of ME2;  They replaced the loot system with an upgrade system and took out planetside exploration altogether in favor of short, shoot-em up sidequests.  They tried to introduce an improved version of the Mako and planetside exploration in the form of the Hammerhead, and people shot that down too.  And wouldn't ya know, the Hammerhead makes no appearance in ME3.  And now we are complaining that the series is too linear and action oriented and that it has abandoned its RPG roots.  Haha.

Now we have the subject of the absence of a final boss in ME3.  People are crying for Harbinger, wondering where he went and why he doesn't play a more important role in the game, and why we didn't fight him at the end of ME3.  He is not anywhere to be found because people complained about him in ME2!  They said he destroyed the sense of mysticism and awe in the Reapers, and his one liners became a joke among the community.  Likewise, people complained about the Saren/Sovereign confrontation in ME1 and the Human Reaper Larva in ME2.  There was so much negative feedback about all of this stuff.   

So why the hell are we so surprised that we don't have a final boss fight in ME3?!  Why are we wondering where Harbinger went?  We ****ed and moaned about Harbinger in ME2 and the final boss fights of both games, so Bioware took them out.  They listened to our feedback, and took the stuff out that we didn't like.  Bottom line.  They thought they were doing the right thing!  and now here we are ripping them a new hole and whining because these things are absent.  WE DID THIS TO OURSELVES. 

This could even be said about the ending; perhaps they were sick and tired of responding to fans' complaints and making so many changes to their creation because of negative fan feedback that they just threw up their hands and said, "to hell with it, we're doing it our way, and they can just deal with it."  If this is the case, the plan backfired, and it wasn't a good way to do things, but could you really blame them?

This is why I will have to agree with Ray's request for constructive criticism.  Most of us simply freak out and throw out insults about content we don't like, or make fun of it, and trash talk Bioware.  Think about what it must feel like as a developer to listen to that;  to know that your fans hate the content that you spent countless hours developing for them.  It probably feels like crap.  So I could totally see them just scrapping those concepts in future titles to avoid the same kind of fan backlash in the future.  It makes total sense.  However, if we were to offer constructive criticism, citing the problems with said content and stating HOW THOSE THINGS CAN BE IMPROVED, things would be different.  Maybe the series would have been more catered to our interests if we wouldn't be such whiny brats about everything.

Basically, my point is that we should stop pointing our fingers directly at Bioware and start thinking about how we, as fans, can offer feedback that is actually constructive and will attribute to improvement on a game/franchise rather than just further complicating or hindering it.  We need to be aware that what we say DOES matter, that they DO listen to us, and we need to be careful what we ask for because we will probably end up getting it.
 

Modifié par Mordimor, 16 avril 2012 - 01:25 .


#2
Zardoc

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We already said everything there is to say, far more than once, often enough in a polite and constructive manner. It's up to BioWare to actually do something and show that they're listening

And I sure as hell didn't ask for the removal of a final boss fight, or this ending.

Modifié par Zardoc, 16 avril 2012 - 01:34 .


#3
crimzontearz

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there is plenty of condtructive criticism here. Also no o e ever asked Bioware for this kinda ending

now explain how we are wrong in saying Bioware mislead us

#4
Nightwriter

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It isn't the fans' "fault" that BioWare would rather remove a game element than fix it.

#5
Lookout1390

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Mordimor wrote...

We all sit here and whine and groan about how Bioware doesn't consider or listen to its fans enough, and that most of the problems with ME3 are because of that.

However, I think that the case is just the opposite; Bioware listens to us, and they listen to us too much.  Have any of us stopped to think that the ending we got, the absense of a final boss fight, and several other unfavorable changes made to the Mass Effect series could be directly attributed to us?

Think about it: countless people complained about the Mako, trash loot system and bland planetside exploration in ME1.  Lo and behold, all those things were taken out of ME2;  They replaced the loot system with an upgrade system and took out planetside exploration altogether in favor of short, shoot-em up sidequests.  They tried to introduce an improved version of the Mako and planetside exploration in the form of the Hammerhead, and people shot that down too.  And wouldn't ya know, the Hammerhead makes no appearance in ME3.  And now we are complaining that the series is too linear and action oriented and that it has abandoned its RPG roots.  Haha.

Now we have the subject of the absence of a final boss in ME3.  People are crying for Harbinger, wondering where he went and why he doesn't play a more important role in the game, and why we didn't fight him at the end of ME3.  He is not anywhere to be found because people complained about him in ME2!  They said he destroyed the sense of mysticism and awe in the Reapers, and his one liners became a joke among the community.  Likewise, people complained about the Saren/Sovereign confrontation in ME1 and the Human Reaper Larva in ME2.  There was so much negative feedback about all of this stuff.   

So why the hell are we so surprised that we don't have a final boss fight in ME3?!  Why are we wondering where Harbinger went?  We ****ed and moaned about Harbinger in ME2 and the final boss fights of both games, so Bioware took them out.  They listened to our feedback, and took the stuff out that we didn't like.  Bottom line.  They thought they were doing the right thing!  and now here we are ripping them a new hole and whining because these things are absent.  WE DID THIS TO OURSELVES. 

This could even be said about the ending; perhaps they were sick and tired of responding to fans' complaints and making so many changes to their creation because of negative fan feedback that they just threw up their hands and said, "to hell with it, we're doing it our way, and they can just deal with it."  If this is the case, the plan backfired, and it wasn't a good way to do things, but could you really blame them?

This is why I will have to agree with Ray's request for constructive criticism.  Most of us simply freak out and throw out insults about content we don't like, or make fun of it, and trash talk Bioware.  Think about what it must feel like as a developer to listen to that;  to know that your fans hate the content that you spent countless hours developing for them.  It probably feels like crap.  So I could totally see them just scrapping those concepts in future titles to avoid the same kind of fan backlash in the future.  It makes total sense.  However, if we were to offer constructive criticism, citing the problems with said content and stating HOW THOSE THINGS CAN BE IMPROVED, things would be different.  Maybe the series would have been more catered to our interests if we wouldn't be such whiny brats about everything.

Basically, my point is that we should stop pointing our fingers directly at Bioware and start thinking about how we, as fans, can offer feedback that is actually constructive and will attribute to improvement on a game/franchise rather than just further complicating or hindering it.  We need to be aware that what we say DOES matter, that they DO listen to us, and we need to be careful what we ask for because we will probably end up getting it.
 



Stopped reading there.

Not even going to bother to read the rest.

No one ever asked for an eccentric, deep, mind-twisting ending. No one asked for an end-game boss removal.

No one asked for a character to be introduced as a deity to the Reapers and that the Reapers all answer to him.

No one asked for all of our War Assets to be completely left ouf of the fight.

For all we know, War Assets was just to raise a number, and was the requisite for a and/if/or statement.

Modifié par Lookout1390, 16 avril 2012 - 01:33 .


#6
RoboticWater

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I agree about the first few points but I think most of the criticisms about Harby was that he wasn't that good of an antagonist. Considering Harby would have to return, Biwoare probably should have tried to make him better. I would have been fine with a few more cutscenes involving him (or replace him with the catalyst). Though, I completely understand the lack of a final boss gameplay wise considering Bioware's not-so-perfect track record with them.

#7
Blind2Society

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No

#8
SirBob1613

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Nightwriter wrote...

It isn't the fans' "fault" that BioWare would rather remove a game element than fix it.



#9
goose2989

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If they listened to fans as well as you think, Talimancers would be sitting on Rannoch now, Liara lovers would have blue babies, and Garrus lovers would have adopted babies.

#10
MyChemicalBromance

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*ahem*

You cannot claim at one instant that the fans are forcing your hand, and then claim the next that the resulting product cannot be changed due to artistic integrity.

Modifié par MyChemicalBromance, 16 avril 2012 - 01:34 .


#11
NoUserNameHere

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The boss fight thing was probably atributable to the (actually rather minor) backlash against the Human-Reapernator of the second game. This is also the least of the problems with the ending sequence.

I don't recall anyone calling for a debbie-downer ending with a mandatory Shamalan twist just to complete the franchise's ruin.

#12
daguest

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I don't remember for asking a deus ex machina and 3 differents color on the same video as an ending. But perhaps many fans asked for this... who knows ?
The mako was not perfect. The human reaper was ridiculous, but still better than starchild.

Modifié par daguest, 16 avril 2012 - 01:34 .


#13
Reptilian Rob

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MyChemicalBromance wrote...

*ahem*

You cannot claim at one instant that the fans are forcing your hand, and then claim the next that you cannot give them what they want because of your artistic integrity.

But dude, what does that even mean...Man?

#14
Spectre Impersonator

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No... the majority of fans never asked for anything like this and the devs tried to sell their game to us by promising us the OPPOSITE of what we got. If they expected fans to like what they gave us, they'd have told us that's what we were getting. They knew we wouldn't be satisfied, but I don't think they predicted how big the backlash would be.

#15
Elyiia

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Yeah, it's our fault Bioware took the end from a thread about the worst possible endings for ME3 :3

#16
marshkoala

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@Mordimor
If you look through the sticky thread Bioware created about feedback on the ending, the majority of posts do just that!
They don't whine, scream or hurl foul words, so sorry don't buy it!

Don't also lump me in a part of the group you are talking about because I have never complained to Bioware about their games.................I was directed here by EA customer service on 3/13/12.

#17
Karrie788

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Nightwriter wrote...

It isn't the fans' "fault" that BioWare would rather remove a game element than fix it.

Yep, exactly this.

#18
Arik7

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Mordimor wrote...
However, I think that the case is just the opposite; Bioware listens to us, and they listen to us too much.  Have any of us stopped to think that the ending we got, the absense of a final boss fight, and several other unfavorable changes made to the Mass Effect series could be directly attributed to us?


NO.  I don't remember anyone asking for our choices to be meaningless....  I don't remember anyone asking for a star child and space magic....  I don't remember anyone asking for plot holes.

Modifié par Arik7, 16 avril 2012 - 01:36 .


#19
Mr. Big Pimpin

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goose2989 wrote...

If they listened to fans as well as you think, Talimancers would be sitting on Rannoch now, Liara lovers would have blue babies, and Garrus lovers would have adopted babies.

QFT.

#20
GnusmasTHX

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IIRC, no one complained about the endings of ME and ME2, and yet they didn't have one in ME3.

#21
balmyrian

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Hahahaha. Nonsense. So much nonsense, my friend!

#22
Greed1914

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NoUserNameHere wrote...

The boss fight thing was probably atributable to the (actually rather minor) backlash against the Human-Reapernator of the second game. This is also the least of the problems with the ending sequence.

I don't recall anyone calling for a debbie-downer ending with a mandatory Shamalan twist just to complete the franchise's ruin.



#23
RoboticWater

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Nightwriter wrote...

It isn't the fans' "fault" that BioWare would rather remove a game element than fix it.

True, but I find that on the BSN there are more "X is terrible and it sucks" comments than "X is terrible this is what we would like and this is how it would work."

I can somewhat sympathise with Bioware for removing features considering just how binary people are. It's either terrible or good, no this "little thing could make it work better" just black and white.

Don't get me wrong, I have seen my fair share of constructive comments but they are completely overwhelmed by everything else.

#24
DJBare

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Where is that quote again? I'll just paraphrase

We are proud of our work and will not be changing it

Kinda flies in the face of listening to the fans, so how can it be the fans fault?

#25
Stalker

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No. We never requested all these crappy things. We requested something (with which we are completely reasonable) and they ****ed it up implementing it: NOT our fault.

Modifié par Mr Massakka, 16 avril 2012 - 01:38 .