264 réponses à ce sujet

[ImperatorMortis]

The Protheans wrote...

I have a low opinion of you too.

Aaaaww, I dislike you too. 

My place or yours? 

[Kyle Kabanya]

Could people please stop creating forums to attack other people about what happened to ME3 and its ending.

Some people like the ending, others don't like the ending. WE GET IT. The people who like the ending are for the most part new gamers to the franchise, the people who don't like the ending notice that there are various plot holes and are long time fans.

Bioware is doing their best to eradicate the problems with the ending. Its not only their fault but also ours as a fan. We put our expectations too high, we also wanted various details and people in the game. Plus it didn't help that EA wanted ME3 to be an action game instead of an RPG. Everyone is at fault.

Everyone needs to stop whining and just wait for Bioware to fix everything. Every two minutes people are creating forums to ****, just stop.

[pattywagon]

Kyle Kabanya wrote...

Could people please stop creating forums to attack other people about what happened to ME3 and its ending.

Some people like the ending, others don't like the ending. WE GET IT. The people who like the ending are for the most part new gamers to the franchise, the people who don't like the ending notice that there are various plot holes and are long time fans.

Bioware is doing their best to eradicate the problems with the ending. Its not only their fault but also ours as a fan. We put our expectations too high, we also wanted various details and people in the game. Plus it didn't help that EA wanted ME3 to be an action game instead of an RPG. Everyone is at fault.

Everyone needs to stop whining and just wait for Bioware to fix everything. Every two minutes people are creating forums to ****, just stop.

One thing that bothered me about the marketing of Mass Effect 3 is they kept talking about how the third game is a good start for new comers? Seriously, who starts the third part of a triology? That is like some random person start watching Return of the Jedi and constantly ask questions about Luke and Darth Vader when they should watch the first 2 to understand what is going on. I put more blame on EA for that as they always try to make their games as marketable as possible to everybody no matter the consequences.

[PlumPaul93]

Correct, I have a feeling all the whining about Harbinger caused him to be basically cut in ME3.

[XTR3M3]

pattywagon wrote...

Kyle Kabanya wrote...

Could people please stop creating forums to attack other people about what happened to ME3 and its ending.

Some people like the ending, others don't like the ending. WE GET IT. The people who like the ending are for the most part new gamers to the franchise, the people who don't like the ending notice that there are various plot holes and are long time fans.

Bioware is doing their best to eradicate the problems with the ending. Its not only their fault but also ours as a fan. We put our expectations too high, we also wanted various details and people in the game. Plus it didn't help that EA wanted ME3 to be an action game instead of an RPG. Everyone is at fault.

Everyone needs to stop whining and just wait for Bioware to fix everything. Every two minutes people are creating forums to ****, just stop.

One thing that bothered me about the marketing of Mass Effect 3 is they kept talking about how the third game is a good start for new comers? Seriously, who starts the third part of a triology? That is like some random person start watching Return of the Jedi and constantly ask questions about Luke and Darth Vader when they should watch the first 2 to understand what is going on. I put more blame on EA for that as they always try to make their games as marketable as possible to everybody no matter the consequences.

good point about jumpin in on the 3rd entry in a trilogy. What is even sadder is some of the people that defend the deus ex ending so hard that have never played ME1 or ME2.

Realistically for me and I bet I am not alone in this.....if you haven't played ME1 and ME2 or at the very least, one of those, your opinion that the endings were "fine" or "good" isn't valid to us. How can it be if you can't understand where we are coming from? People that have played the first 2 and still liked the endings....well, we can just agree to disagree then but our opinion about the endings being a HUGE disappointment is valid.

building on what the poster said I quoted....Darth Vader's turn on the Emperor and saving Luke in the end is meaningless unless you saw what it took to get him there.....just like the ME3 end is meaninless and unsatisfying when you have seen and played what it took to get us there.

EDIT...had to fix some typos and incorrect words/clarifications...sorry...my fingers work faster than my brain sometimes lol.

Modifié par XTR3M3, 16 avril 2012 - 07:14 .

[N7Infernox]

fixing something people didn't like in a game =/= the immediate and absolute removal of said element

[Mordimor]

Opsrbest wrote...

I actually agree with the OP in this
regard. People complained about ME1 having to much exploration so they
toned it down in ME2. People complained about the Mako in ME1 and they
removed it in ME2. People complained that the inventory systems was
overburdening the player and hey they simplified it. The same can be
said for ME2 with people complaining that there were no Mako-esqe
missions in the game so we were given the Firewalker DLC.

No boss
fights in ME3 from the BSN. Really big plot twists that were speculated
upon till nothing but a flame war was left in the thread, BSN. A lot of
what the game is comes from the BSN and Bioware listening. Funny how
that works. The BSN doesn't get what they want they complain, they get
what they want and they still complain and if worse comes to pass
Bioware is evil and satanic for whatever reason the BSN decides.

The
BSN provides feedback, which after seeing the reaction of that feedback
through ME2 and ME3 as well as DA:A and DA2 the only thing I have come
to consider is that Bioware needs to stop listening to the BSN.

Thank you.

However, I just wanna post this again since it seems no one read it:

Mordimor wrote...

You all have some very valid points, but I think a lot of you misread my point.

First, I'm not trying to put down the Mass Effect community, of which I am a part of, by saying the word "whine" and whatnot.  Sorry to any that were offended by that.  I do believe that we have a right as consumers to express our opinion on the content that Bioware gives us and should definitely be vocal about content we don't like, so they can improve it.  However, I'm sorry, but I see a lot of whining/complaining for the sake of doing so (or because they get fired up by reading posts, even if they weren't too happy with the endings or whatever initially, and end up jumping on an opinion train) on these forums.  And we need to realize that the people that are the loudest are the ones that get what they want.  It is important to be careful what we are asking for and really think about what we are saying on these forums because Bioware does listen and do develop their games based on fan feedback.  That was the point I was trying to make.

Bioware scrapped Harbinger and a final boss fight because we complained.  I am NOT saying that this is okay, and I share the opinion that Bioware should focus on improving flawed elements of their game rather than completely scrapping it.  However, I stand by my initial statement that due to our complaining, these elements were removed.

I am also in no means trying to justify the ending of this game (even though I don't think it's as bad as everyone says it is).  I only talked about the ending once in my post, in which I said:

"This could even be said about the ending; perhaps they were sick and tired of responding to fans' complaints and making so many changes to their creation because of negative fan feedback that they just threw up their hands and said, "to hell with it, we're doing it our way, and they can just deal with it."  If this is the case, the plan backfired, and it wasn't a good way to do things, but could you really blame them?"

I concur that Bioware made a lot of mistakes with this game, mistakes that can be directly attributed to them (I have my fair share of opinions regarding the flaws of ME3).  All I am saying is that some things, such as the lack of a boss fight and the absence of Harbinger, can be directly attributed to US, but yet we are crying foul.  And that is what I was talking about; I wasn't focusing on the ending in my post really, but since all you people are obsessed with it you turned it into another bash-the-ending thread. 

I'm just saying that Bioware isn't completely at fault here, and that SOME of the things we are unhappy with, but not ALL of them, are due in large part to the community complaining.  And I'm gonna stick by that, sorry.  I've seen this happen in other game franchises as well; developers listen to the complainers, change stuff to try and please the complainers, complainers complain even more, game ends up being a fail amongst the fans.  

Again, just wanna say that I agree that Bioware should not completely scrap things that do not work but instead improve on them.  This is something I have thought for a while now.  Also, again, this thread was not meant to be a discussion about the ending but rather about the removal of other elements from the series due to fan feedback.  So please, no more "I didn't ask for crap ending" comments.

Modifié par Mordimor, 16 avril 2012 - 07:23 .

[Kuari999]

Even if what you say is accurate, its not the customer's fault if they perform a knee jerk reaction instead of focusing on WHY those things were disliked.  People made their opinions heard.  They have no control over how those opinions are implemented, so it ends up all on the developer.

Its similar to nerfs in MMOs..  a lot of those are customer reaction, but its not the fault of the customers that its taken too far.  Maybe that it happened in the first place, but not in it being taken way too far.

That's actually the biggest issue of the game industry I think:  They take feedback and use it to sledgehammer things into the ground rather than finetune.

Modifié par Kuari999, 16 avril 2012 - 07:24 .

[XTR3M3]

Mordimor wrote...

Again, just wanna say that I agree that Bioware should not completely scrap things that do not work but instead approve of them.  This is something I have thought for a while now.  Also, again, this thread was not meant to be a discussion about the ending but rather about the removal of other elements from the series due to fan feedback.  So please, no more "I didn't ask for crap ending" comments.

OK, fine. on that note, please point me to the thread where we complained about them following their own lore, genre and format too much that made them forgo all of those and instead give us a deus ex ending?

Sorry, but the ending IS a valid issue within this thread in the context I laid out.

Modifié par XTR3M3, 16 avril 2012 - 07:25 .

[Mordimor]

They did not go off of fan feedback to write the endings, obviously, which is why I made the thread about other content that they did alter due to fan feedback.

I think the ending was one of the few things that they developed in which they completely disregarded fan feedback.  They did what they wanted to do with it, which of course was a very bad thing to do.

[Flextt]

Nightwriter wrote...

It isn't the fans' "fault" that BioWare would rather remove a game element than fix it.

This a thousand times

[Sc2mashimaro]

I never frequented the BSN until the ending, but if what you are saying is true, then, yeah, totally brought it on "ourselves".

Good post OP.

Also, I think it's great the Bioware listens to fan feedback, but there is definitely a limit to the usefulness of fan feedback - you have to trust yourself at some point to just make something good and hope it works the way you think it will.

[XTR3M3]

Mordimor wrote...

I think the ending was one of the few things that they developed in which they completely disregarded fan feedback.  They did what they wanted to do with it, which of course was a very bad thing to do.

OK point taken.

Modifié par XTR3M3, 16 avril 2012 - 07:48 .

[ShepardTheHopeful]

I had a full settled argument for this, but between ME3 being racist and the claim that we are solely responsible for the way that EA/Bioware made ME3 in all it's form that that game was the pinnacle of a developer listening to the fans....ugh I don't even care anymore I can't fight so much stupid at once so I'll just sum up my entire argument here. 

This video sums up my thoughts on your BRILLIANT ideas. 

www.youtube.com/watch

Modifié par ShepardTheHopeful, 16 avril 2012 - 07:53 .

[cachx]

Bioware did listen, but it didn't turn out bad in most cases.

I believe that things like removable helmets, inter-squad banter, and gun customization made it in on ME3 thanks to fan feedback and I consider them to be positive things.

There are a lot of game designers that think that listening too much to the fanbase can be harmful. And I sort of agree with that, mostly.

Also, this is a little OT, but that attitude of "I am the true fan, so other people's opinion doesn't matter" is selfish, whiny, and is one of the culprits of why the outside world thinks we're entitled brats. It should stop.

[kal_reegar]

no mako and no boss fight? I can accept it.
just one hub world, a lot of auto-dialogue? I can tolerate it.
I understand they are trying to please as many people as possible.

but space magic and plot holes? No. I can't accept that.
And I don't think that anyone has ever complained about narrative coherency and realism.

[Unit-Alpha]

ImperatorMortis wrote...

The Protheans wrote...

I have a low opinion of you too.

Aaaaww, I dislike you too. 

My place or yours? 

Still a better ending than ME3.

[bmwcrazy]

Alright...so who asked for a crappy ending?

[Menalaos1971]

Mordimor wrote...

We all sit here and whine and groan about how Bioware doesn't consider or listen to its fans enough, and that most of the problems with ME3 are because of that.

However, I think that the case is just the opposite; Bioware listens to us, and they listen to us too much.  Have any of us stopped to think that the ending we got, the absense of a final boss fight, and several other unfavorable changes made to the Mass Effect series could be directly attributed to us?

Think about it: countless people complained about the Mako, trash loot system and bland planetside exploration in ME1.  Lo and behold, all those things were taken out of ME2;  They replaced the loot system with an upgrade system and took out planetside exploration altogether in favor of short, shoot-em up sidequests.  They tried to introduce an improved version of the Mako and planetside exploration in the form of the Hammerhead, and people shot that down too.  And wouldn't ya know, the Hammerhead makes no appearance in ME3.  And now we are complaining that the series is too linear and action oriented and that it has abandoned its RPG roots.  Haha.

Now we have the subject of the absence of a final boss in ME3.  People are crying for Harbinger, wondering where he went and why he doesn't play a more important role in the game, and why we didn't fight him at the end of ME3.  He is not anywhere to be found because people complained about him in ME2!  They said he destroyed the sense of mysticism and awe in the Reapers, and his one liners became a joke among the community.  Likewise, people complained about the Saren/Sovereign confrontation in ME1 and the Human Reaper Larva in ME2.  There was so much negative feedback about all of this stuff.   

So why the hell are we so surprised that we don't have a final boss fight in ME3?!  Why are we wondering where Harbinger went?  We ****ed and moaned about Harbinger in ME2 and the final boss fights of both games, so Bioware took them out.  They listened to our feedback, and took the stuff out that we didn't like.  Bottom line.  They thought they were doing the right thing!  and now here we are ripping them a new hole and whining because these things are absent.  WE DID THIS TO OURSELVES. 

This could even be said about the ending; perhaps they were sick and tired of responding to fans' complaints and making so many changes to their creation because of negative fan feedback that they just threw up their hands and said, "to hell with it, we're doing it our way, and they can just deal with it."  If this is the case, the plan backfired, and it wasn't a good way to do things, but could you really blame them?

This is why I will have to agree with Ray's request for constructive criticism.  Most of us simply freak out and throw out insults about content we don't like, or make fun of it, and trash talk Bioware.  Think about what it must feel like as a developer to listen to that;  to know that your fans hate the content that you spent countless hours developing for them.  It probably feels like crap.  So I could totally see them just scrapping those concepts in future titles to avoid the same kind of fan backlash in the future.  It makes total sense.  However, if we were to offer constructive criticism, citing the problems with said content and stating HOW THOSE THINGS CAN BE IMPROVED, things would be different.  Maybe the series would have been more catered to our interests if we wouldn't be such whiny brats about everything.

Basically, my point is that we should stop pointing our fingers directly at Bioware and start thinking about how we, as fans, can offer feedback that is actually constructive and will attribute to improvement on a game/franchise rather than just further complicating or hindering it.  We need to be aware that what we say DOES matter, that they DO listen to us, and we need to be careful what we ask for because we will probably end up getting it.

Wow, I actually came into this thread ready to bash you, but after reading your topic you may just be right.
Sadly, I'm one of the few that LOVED the Mako and cruising around alien landscapes looking for interesting spots.  I miss that...

[Deventh]

Oh man... so you're saying that bioware doesn't have a brain on their own to listen? Isn't this their "artistic integrity" ? Defend them however you want it won't change the fact that they made this abomination.

[Kuari999]

Menalaos1971 wrote...
Wow, I actually came into this thread ready to bash you, but after reading your topic you may just be right.
Sadly, I'm one of the few that LOVED the Mako and cruising around alien landscapes looking for interesting spots.  I miss that...

Or he would have been had the complaints been more the Mako being stupid in general rather than the complaints being the poor handling and the planets all being the same except with different textures.  Removing the Mako wasn't listening to those complaints really...  hell, the hovertank only really handled the handling complaint.

So they are hearing...  but not LISTENING.  Hearing is well... hearing the complaints.  Listening is comprehending them.  Listening doesn't necessarily mean doing exactly what a person asks, but it is understanding what the complaint is and why...  something they've been failing miserably at.

Modifié par Kuari999, 16 avril 2012 - 09:03 .

[WeAreLegionWTF]

OP, if what you say is right, They could have at least done what they did in a tasteful, talented manor, akin to the level of quality of the rest of the game. I don't think there were any fans crying "ya know theres too much quality in the first 2 games, i really wish theyd put out a haphazard rush job of an ending, tie up the story with fail circular logic, and cut as many corners as possible to end off the series," .

This was a rushed product. They know farrrr better than we do I'm sure. The game fell short on so many levels, just walk around the citadel, (or omega or illium... oops you cant) you can tell many a corners were cut across the board. hopefully their "extended cut" and any future dlc wont fall victim to whatever politics the original release did. Sadly right now it feels like the entire series future is on the chopping block pending this extended cut stuff.

[Bizantura]

So to sum it up : the team that made ME3 is not responsible for story / content / gameplay but the fans are!!

Wow, what a projection.

[Optimus J]

If by OUR you include EVERYONE that play and complained, reconsider that. Your "OUR FAULT" should be changed to "MY FAULT", as I never gave you any power to speak for me, Mordimor.