264 réponses à ce sujet

[soulprovider]

Blind2Society wrote...

Jealous Beauty wrote...

I'm just glad they finally caved in to popular demand and put Jessica Chobot in the game.

[smilie]http://i1102.photobucket.com/albums/g444/Blind2Society/rofl.gif[/smilie]
[smilie]http://i1102.photobucket.com/albums/g444/Blind2Society/rofl.gif[/smilie]

 

 

Modifié par soulprovider, 16 avril 2012 - 04:04 .

[IndridColdx]

Mordimor wrote...

We all sit here and whine and groan about how Bioware doesn't consider or listen to its fans enough, and that most of the problems with ME3 are because of that.

However, I think that the case is just the opposite; Bioware listens to us, and they listen to us too much.  Have any of us stopped to think that the ending we got, the absense of a final boss fight, and several other unfavorable changes made to the Mass Effect series could be directly attributed to us?

Think about it: countless people complained about the Mako, trash loot system and bland planetside exploration in ME1.  Lo and behold, all those things were taken out of ME2;  They replaced the loot system with an upgrade system and took out planetside exploration altogether in favor of short, shoot-em up sidequests.  They tried to introduce an improved version of the Mako and planetside exploration in the form of the Hammerhead, and people shot that down too.  And wouldn't ya know, the Hammerhead makes no appearance in ME3.  And now we are complaining that the series is too linear and action oriented and that it has abandoned its RPG roots.  Haha.

Now we have the subject of the absence of a final boss in ME3.  People are crying for Harbinger, wondering where he went and why he doesn't play a more important role in the game, and why we didn't fight him at the end of ME3.  He is not anywhere to be found because people complained about him in ME2!  They said he destroyed the sense of mysticism and awe in the Reapers, and his one liners became a joke among the community.  Likewise, people complained about the Saren/Sovereign confrontation in ME1 and the Human Reaper Larva in ME2.  There was so much negative feedback about all of this stuff.   

So why the hell are we so surprised that we don't have a final boss fight in ME3?!  Why are we wondering where Harbinger went?  We ****ed and moaned about Harbinger in ME2 and the final boss fights of both games, so Bioware took them out.  They listened to our feedback, and took the stuff out that we didn't like.  Bottom line.  They thought they were doing the right thing!  and now here we are ripping them a new hole and whining because these things are absent.  WE DID THIS TO OURSELVES. 

This could even be said about the ending; perhaps they were sick and tired of responding to fans' complaints and making so many changes to their creation because of negative fan feedback that they just threw up their hands and said, "to hell with it, we're doing it our way, and they can just deal with it."  If this is the case, the plan backfired, and it wasn't a good way to do things, but could you really blame them?

This is why I will have to agree with Ray's request for constructive criticism.  Most of us simply freak out and throw out insults about content we don't like, or make fun of it, and trash talk Bioware.  Think about what it must feel like as a developer to listen to that;  to know that your fans hate the content that you spent countless hours developing for them.  It probably feels like crap.  So I could totally see them just scrapping those concepts in future titles to avoid the same kind of fan backlash in the future.  It makes total sense.  However, if we were to offer constructive criticism, citing the problems with said content and stating HOW THOSE THINGS CAN BE IMPROVED, things would be different.  Maybe the series would have been more catered to our interests if we wouldn't be such whiny brats about everything.

Basically, my point is that we should stop pointing our fingers directly at Bioware and start thinking about how we, as fans, can offer feedback that is actually constructive and will attribute to improvement on a game/franchise rather than just further complicating or hindering it.  We need to be aware that what we say DOES matter, that they DO listen to us, and we need to be careful what we ask for because we will probably end up getting it.
 

What part in what you wrote gave Bioware a reason to give us a terrible ending?  It wasn't complaining about Mako.  It wasn't complaining about a final boss.  It wasn't complaining about some trashy loot system or pointless planet exploration.  None of that caused a plothole riddled, lack of closure filled, not taking our choices into account, dog s**t ending.
There is nothing that you made mention of that at all can justify what we got.  Plain and GD simple, it was poor writing on Bioware's part.
It is BIOWARE'S fault.  

[formshifter]

OP, the big problem is that they didn't SOLVE issues. We never asked them to take things out. We asked them to FIX THINGS. They decided "fixing" meant "taking it out". That is not our fault. I would have been fine with exploration and the Mako. . . if the planets hadn't been so ridiculously large and hard to navigate. I don't want to spend 45 minutes going through 900 mountains . . . to find 3 metal deposits, a probe with no good loot, and ONE sidequest.

I wouldn't have minded a cooler inventory system. I would have been fine with being able to carry a bunch of guns/mods. . . if it weren't for the fact that they didn't stack, didn't give a clear indication of superiority, and took a HUGE amount of time to sort through.

I LIKED the boss fights. The Reaper Larva. . . . the big issue with that wasn't the actual FIGHT. . . it was the shape of the Larva. Besides, it wasn't really even a boss fight. We've only had ONE of those in 3 games, Saren and his 2.0 form. The rest have been like Kai Leng (even IF it was less noticeable): one guy who is supposed to be "awesome and badass", but in reality is just an above average baddie with a bunch of mooks.

Basically, Bioware took our criticisms and had a knee jerk reaction. We AREN'T to blame for that. I don't think we CAN blame anybody. We said our opinions (some more vocally than others). They reacted to them.

However, PLEASE dump the apologist act. I explained my reasoning above; besides, Bioware has enough PR to defend itself if they so choose.

[zzcoreyzz]

Nightwriter wrote...

It isn't the fans' "fault" that BioWare would rather remove a game element than fix it.

OP post is now invalid.

[sistersafetypin]

Kudos to everyone that read past the first sentence. I did not. OP, don't expect me to take you seriously when you start with something like that

[brian_breed]

Mordimor wrote...

We all sit here and whine and groan about how Bioware doesn't consider or listen to its fans enough, and that most of the problems with ME3 are because of that.

However, I think that the case is just the opposite; Bioware listens to us, and they listen to us too much.  Have any of us stopped to think that the ending we got, the absense of a final boss fight, and several other unfavorable changes made to the Mass Effect series could be directly attributed to us?

I think the embolded is overstated. 

snip

This could even be said about the ending; perhaps they were sick and tired of responding to fans' complaints and making so many changes to their creation because of negative fan feedback that they just threw up their hands and said, "to hell with it, we're doing it our way, and they can just deal with it."  If this is the case, the plan backfired, and it wasn't a good way to do things, but could you really blame them?

I think there is some truth to this claim.

This is why I will have to agree with Ray's request for constructive criticism.  Most of us simply freak out and throw out insults about content we don't like, or make fun of it, and trash talk Bioware.  Think about what it must feel like as a developer to listen to that;  to know that your fans hate the content that you spent countless hours developing for them.  It probably feels like crap.  So I could totally see them just scrapping those concepts in future titles to avoid the same kind of fan backlash in the future.  It makes total sense.  However, if we were to offer constructive criticism, citing the problems with said content and stating HOW THOSE THINGS CAN BE IMPROVED, things would be different.  Maybe the series would have been more catered to our interests if we wouldn't be such whiny brats about everything.

You're conflating at least two demographics under one criticism. A lot of us, myself included, have not thrown a single insult at EA/Bioware nor anyone associated with them. 

You can draw three circles. Circle A would be for people using BSN or other outlets to trash Bioware. Circle B would represent players citing specific problems with the ending. Circle C denote players suggesting specific ways to remedy problems with the game, especially the ending. There would be interlap between AB, AC, BC, and ABC. It's a Venn Diagram!

Modifié par brian_breed, 16 avril 2012 - 04:53 .

[Mordimor]

You all have some very valid points, but I think a lot of you misread my point.

First, I'm not trying to put down the Mass Effect community, of which I am a part of, by saying the word "whine" and whatnot.  Sorry to any that were offended by that.  I do believe that we have a right as consumers to express our opinion on the content that Bioware gives us and should definitely be vocal about content we don't like, so they can improve it.  However, I'm sorry, but I see a lot of whining/complaining for the sake of doing so (or because they get fired up by reading posts, even if they weren't too happy with the endings or whatever initially, and end up jumping on an opinion train) on these forums.  And we need to realize that the people that are the loudest are the ones that get what they want.  It is important to be careful what we are asking for and really think about what we are saying on these forums because Bioware does listen and do develop their games based on fan feedback.  That was the point I was trying to make.

Bioware scrapped Harbinger and a final boss fight because we complained.  I am NOT saying that this is okay, and I share the opinion that Bioware should focus on improving flawed elements of their game rather than completely scrapping it.  However, I stand by my initial statement that due to our complaining, these elements were removed.

I am also in no means trying to justify the ending of this game (even though I don't think it's as bad as everyone says it is).  I only talked about the ending once in my post, in which I said:

"This could even be said about the ending; perhaps they were sick and tired of responding to fans' complaints and making so many changes to their creation because of negative fan feedback that they just threw up their hands and said, "to hell with it, we're doing it our way, and they can just deal with it."  If this is the case, the plan backfired, and it wasn't a good way to do things, but could you really blame them?"

I concur that Bioware made a lot of mistakes with this game, mistakes that can be directly attributed to them (I have my fair share of opinions regarding the flaws of ME3).  All I am saying is that some things, such as the lack of a boss fight and the absence of Harbinger, can be directly attributed to US, but yet we are crying foul.  And that is what I was talking about; I wasn't focusing on the ending in my post really, but since all you people are obsessed with it you turned it into another bash-the-ending thread. 

I'm just saying that Bioware isn't completely at fault here, and that SOME of the things we are unhappy with, but not ALL of them, are due in large part to the community complaining.  And I'm gonna stick by that, sorry.  I've seen this happen in other game franchises as well; developers listen to the complainers, change stuff to try and please the complainers, complainers complain even more, game ends up being a fail amongst the fans.  

Modifié par Mordimor, 16 avril 2012 - 07:12 .

[The Night Mammoth]

What exactly was complained about that resulted in Harbinger being removed? Must have happened long after ME2 since he featured in Arrival.

[TheDonk95]

It is not becuase that threre is no "Final boss fight" that mainly every one is upset about.
It is because that in the end it didn't really matter how much you influenced the Mass Effect galaxy through out the serie and how many War Assest you have aquired. That is the main reason everyone is upset.
And I won't even say: "I never said that I hated Harbinger in ME 2 blah blah blah..." Because that will be pointless.

[Nightwriter]

Johcande XX wrote...

The OP is right, this all happened because I made BioWare do it with my incessant complaining. They've actually been paying too close attention to my demands.

Sorry guys and gals, it was my fault. Last year I said that I wanted ME3 to have an "open to interpretation" ending, for it to be as hopeless and depressing as possible, and also told them I was tired of stuff that flowed logically and made sense.

Again, sorry everybody.

HOW DO YOU SLEEP AT NIGHT.

Modifié par Nightwriter, 16 avril 2012 - 11:31 .

[evisneffo]

Being relatively new to the ME series and thus having missed the opportunity to campaign for stuff in the previous games, I was actually quite surprised to hear how much player feedback BioWare had taken onboard previously -- and a little dismayed to hear how much "whining" there has already been about numerous things in the first two games.

So ... as much as I dislike the ending and would welcome changes, and continue to express this view, you do make some good points OP.

Modifié par evisneffo, 16 avril 2012 - 11:00 .

[StElmo]

I wouldn't care if harbinger wasn't in it, I do care about an ending that makes no sense though.

[IronVanguard]

Nightwriter wrote...

It isn't the fans' "fault" that BioWare would rather remove a game element than fix it.

Yep, still pretty much this.

[Huntrob]

Sorry guys, I was one of the people that suggested to Bioware that they lie to everyone. I whined and moaned. I was like, "Bioware, everyone loves being lied to, you should include it in ME3. It would be even better if you focus all your effort into implementing this into ending. Our choices shouldn't matter. Please... Bioware... I beg of you... please please please whine cry."

Here's some constructive feedback: Don't blatantly lie to your loyal customers, it won't do you any good. It's called false advertisement, and it will only ****** off your fans.

That's my main beef with Bioware right now.

[M Hedonist]

So... who asked for the ending? Anybody? Raise your hands please if you asked Bioware to do this specific ending.

[Trentgamer]

I don't know about anyone else here, but I never even came to these forums until the ending of ME 3. I'm betting these forums have picked up massively since ME 3 came out and I bet most of us didn't even have any input one way or the other in the previous games. I just played them, enjoyed them, then wondered why they dropped the ball on 3.

So any input or complaints that might have influenced things definitely were not on the part of the majority of the fans, only the vocal minority that use the forums.

[thebigbad1013]

Sauruz wrote...

So... who asked for the ending? Anybody? Raise your hands please if you asked Bioware to do this specific ending.

It was me.

What? You didn't love how artistic it was?

[Nightdragon8]

yep complain about it they dont "fix it" they "remove it" not a good policy imo. so insted of offending 1 group, you offend both groups.... smart....

When I heard Vegas, cortez arugement about the Mako vs Hammerhead, I knew right away that it was pointing at the fans...

and whatever happened to the whole Shadowbroker taxi game? I remember BW asking us if we liked it, and yes it got mixed reviews, (I said it was find as long as it wasn't overused), I mean I was half expecting it to happen during the taxi shuttle cutscene... but nope...

To be honest the loot system... I don't miss it... it was tidus I mean comparing armors, and when half the time trying to get the better armor, for a member not in your party at the time was painful, and IMO annoying after playing ME2, Tho I missed the mods, (which I was Happy that they brought back)

One thing I seriously hated... I want to enter my ship and NOT TAKE OFF, but i guess they used the same system in ME2 in ME3. (when if you think about it all they had to do was shut off some SFX, and if it was a mapping issue, could have just added it to the map it was docked at... oh well..

[Njald]

Let's just Godwin this thread and call it a day.

Fans to Hitler: "How about not murdering all the redheads and lefthanded people? We really think that is wrong"
Hitler: "I hear what you are saying."
Fans to Hitler: "What the h*ell Hitler? You murdered the communists, the gypsies and the jews and then some!?"
Hitler: "I listened to your reqeust but I had no idea that some people felt this strongly about it" 

There we go, no need to progress further dsown this rabbit hole.

[M Hedonist]

sistersafetypin wrote...

Kudos to everyone that read past the first sentence. I did not. OP, don't expect me to take you seriously when you start with something like that

You didn't miss anything of importance.

[Kreid]

An, as expected a barrage of people come out to tell the op how wrong s/he is and don't even bother to read or consider his/her point of view.

OP, for what's worth I think there's a grain of truth in what you said, even though it's clear that many times BioWare simply deals with problems by removal instead of fixing them which is part of the issue.

And, Njald that was distasteful and uncalled for.

Modifié par Creid-X, 16 avril 2012 - 11:46 .

[the red boon]

Are you taking personal responsibility for all the lies bioware fed me to waste $100 on mass effect 3?

[Oldbones2]

You may have a point OP, but I don't remember asking for a weird ending that violated the lore and themes of the previous games.



This could even be said about the ending; perhaps they were sick and tired of responding to fans' complaints and making so many changes to their creation because of negative fan feedback that they just threw up their hands and said, "to hell with it, we're doing it our way, and they can just deal with it." If this is the case, the plan backfired, and it wasn't a good way to do things, but could you really blame them?


If they really did this^^^

Then its not us causing the problem. I sympathize with the stress of meets unreasonable demands and difficult customers, but just saying 'to hell with them' isn't the way to go.

[The Protheans]

Mordimor wrote...

We all sit here and whine and groan about how Bioware doesn't consider or listen to its fans enough, and that most of the problems with ME3 are because of that.

However, I think that the case is just the opposite; Bioware listens to us, and they listen to us too much.  Have any of us stopped to think that the ending we got, the absense of a final boss fight, and several other unfavorable changes made to the Mass Effect series could be directly attributed to us?

Think about it: countless people complained about the Mako, trash loot system and bland planetside exploration in ME1.  Lo and behold, all those things were taken out of ME2;  They replaced the loot system with an upgrade system and took out planetside exploration altogether in favor of short, shoot-em up sidequests.  They tried to introduce an improved version of the Mako and planetside exploration in the form of the Hammerhead, and people shot that down too.  And wouldn't ya know, the Hammerhead makes no appearance in ME3.  And now we are complaining that the series is too linear and action oriented and that it has abandoned its RPG roots.  Haha.

Now we have the subject of the absence of a final boss in ME3.  People are crying for Harbinger, wondering where he went and why he doesn't play a more important role in the game, and why we didn't fight him at the end of ME3.  He is not anywhere to be found because people complained about him in ME2!  They said he destroyed the sense of mysticism and awe in the Reapers, and his one liners became a joke among the community.  Likewise, people complained about the Saren/Sovereign confrontation in ME1 and the Human Reaper Larva in ME2.  There was so much negative feedback about all of this stuff.   

So why the hell are we so surprised that we don't have a final boss fight in ME3?!  Why are we wondering where Harbinger went?  We ****ed and moaned about Harbinger in ME2 and the final boss fights of both games, so Bioware took them out.  They listened to our feedback, and took the stuff out that we didn't like.  Bottom line.  They thought they were doing the right thing!  and now here we are ripping them a new hole and whining because these things are absent.  WE DID THIS TO OURSELVES. 

This could even be said about the ending; perhaps they were sick and tired of responding to fans' complaints and making so many changes to their creation because of negative fan feedback that they just threw up their hands and said, "to hell with it, we're doing it our way, and they can just deal with it."  If this is the case, the plan backfired, and it wasn't a good way to do things, but could you really blame them?

This is why I will have to agree with Ray's request for constructive criticism.  Most of us simply freak out and throw out insults about content we don't like, or make fun of it, and trash talk Bioware.  Think about what it must feel like as a developer to listen to that;  to know that your fans hate the content that you spent countless hours developing for them.  It probably feels like crap.  So I could totally see them just scrapping those concepts in future titles to avoid the same kind of fan backlash in the future.  It makes total sense.  However, if we were to offer constructive criticism, citing the problems with said content and stating HOW THOSE THINGS CAN BE IMPROVED, things would be different.  Maybe the series would have been more catered to our interests if we wouldn't be such whiny brats about everything.

Basically, my point is that we should stop pointing our fingers directly at Bioware and start thinking about how we, as fans, can offer feedback that is actually constructive and will attribute to improvement on a game/franchise rather than just further complicating or hindering it.  We need to be aware that what we say DOES matter, that they DO listen to us, and we need to be careful what we ask for because we will probably end up getting it.
 

I just wanna break this down.

We didn't ask them to remove the mako and hammerhead.
They the removed mako because they didn't have the resources to do it proper.
The hammerhead was removed for unknown reasons to me but there is no real side missions so I asume it was removed because of that.


And we sure as hell didn't ask them to

- Remove Side missions and replace them with normandy mini game/ fetch quest missions combo
- Give us an ending with no real choice and no difference between false choices.

Now we have the subject of the absence of a final boss in ME3. People are crying for Harbinger, wondering where he went and why he doesn't play a more important role in the game, and why we didn't fight him at the end of ME3. He is not anywhere to be found because people complained about him in ME2! They said he destroyed the sense of mysticism and awe in the Reapers, and his one liners became a joke among the community. Likewise, people complained about the Saren/Sovereign confrontation in ME1 and the Human Reaper Larva in ME2. There was so much negative feedback about all of this stuff.

I don't remember any of that apart from the Human Reaper Larva.
Which was badly done, no one complained about Harbinger, Saren and Sovereign.




Well this was certainly a read, all I can take from this is that you're a misguided fool who doesn't understand a thing about what happened and why it happened so you blame the fans because you're butthurt or something.
Its solely their fault they made a bad game and removed so much content people want and to say people wanted Harbinger taken out of Mass effect is absurd.
Take Starbrat out he is basicially "Human Reaper 2.0" and if Bioware listened they wouldn't of included him.

Modifié par The Protheans, 16 avril 2012 - 12:11 .

[Lavits75]

I always thought Harbinger was cool.