317 réponses à ce sujet

[Degs29]

I've been a fan of BW's since Jade Empire.  Usually I don't become attached to a developer, but take games one at a time.  But Bioware is different.  When I bought their games, I always knew they would be great.  Before ME3, I had never really been disappointed in any of their products.  Jade Empire was great.  Dragon Age was great, Mass Effect 1 and 2 were great.  I even liked Dragon Age 2 even though it had some flaws that really riled other fans.  Mass Effect 3 was on track to become my favourite Bioware game yet....

But I'm just one person.  Fans have reacted positively and negatively to other Bioware games before.  ME2 didn't have enough RPG elements to some.  Planet scanning was too time-consuming to others.  Dragon Age 2 recycled environments and didn't seem to have the depth of its predecessor, some said.  But no reaction has been as severe as the reaction over these endings.  So many are left feeling depressed, frustrated, upset, or just plain bewildered over ME3's ending.  As proud as Bioware should be for all its accomplishments, ME3 cannot be seen as an accomplishment until the ending is salvaged.

It just seems like the dominos are starting to fall.  First with DA2, then with what some consider a lackluster debut for TOR, and now with the controversy over the ME3 ending(s). 

Maybe some of the BW staff stand wholeheartedly behind their "vision", but I can't believe they all do.  Besides, when the fans overwhelming are devasted by the resolution you put forth, something must be seriously wrong.  A big problem requires a big fix.  But Bioware seems intent on applying a band-aid in place of stitches.  Or, perhaps more aptly, in place of performing a necessary amputation. 

Bioware's work has created possibly the most passionful and dedicated fanbase today.  That's a testament to their brilliance.

But BW's reputation has now been marred.  DA2, day 1 DLC, and the ME3 endings (and countless other less significant events) have all shaken the fans faith.  Something significant needs to be done to restore it.

What matters more? Staying true to your artistic vision? Or creating a work that millions of people will cherish and that will create a lasting impact on people worldwide?

Your move Bioware.

[Dridengx]

Well for one.. there isn't millions of fans who didn't like the ending, it wasn't even a quarter of a million. Many people are happy with ME3. So your argument is broken. If a few thousand get mad, move on, you can't force their hands and demand a company to do what you want.. you take it or leave it.

Modifié par Dridengx, 16 avril 2012 - 02:32 .

[Vasarkian]

Dridengx wrote...

Well for one.. there isn't millions of fans who didn't like the ending, it wasn't even a quarter of a million. Many people are happy with ME3. So your argument is broken. If a few thousand get mad, move on, you can't force their hands and demand a company to do what you want.. you take it or leave it.

To be honest even BioWare has admitted that they realize the vocal minority on the forums represent a very large group of potentially hundreds of thousands. Their pr departments at least know something about proper statistical analysis.

So there's really no way to determine how many people actually are on our side and aren't.

[Garlador]

As a creator of games myself with hopes of working for a team like Bioware, I believe that games are a powerful force of innovation and story crafting. A tool to give those that experience these games unforgettable and intimate moments that books, comics, and movies just can't contend with.

But one should NEVER shield themselves from humility and criticism behind a veil of "artistic integrity". My teachers taught me that the first semester; it's a commercial art. Yes, it is art, but it is also very much COMMERCIAL.

To quote a friend of mine who worked on a bad game, he said "nobody PLANS on making a bad game or making gamers angry." He's right. Even the worst game, or especially a mediocre game, is still a labor of love from many talented people that poured their heart and soul into a failed product. The graphics could be brilliant, but the gameplay could be terrible. The gameplay could be great, but maybe the graphics sucked. The story could've been great, but the voice actors ruined it. You did your job perfectly, and someone ELSE on the team botched it.

So many things can go wrong that ruin a good thing.

Mass Effect 3 is not immune to criticism. Nor should it. It succeeds in many areas.

But, being perfectly honest, the ending does NOT succeed. It violates and tarnishes the lore and established rules of the universe, disrespects its audience, betrays even the most basic of literary standards of story-crafting, and ultimately has become a universally loathed and hated stain on an otherwise beautiful work of art.

Bioware can be proud of many things. It should not be proud of that ending. I'm sorry; I know that hurts to be told that something you worked hard on failed, but it did, and you can either be mature enough to accept the criticism or fall to your ego and plead your case for its perfection in the face of overwhelming negativity.

Be proud, Bioware. You made a great game with great characters with great story moments, great setpieces, great characters, great music, great gameplay, great detail... but you should not be proud of that ending.

And especially don't tell me "hell yeah, we're proud of it", either. A commercial work is worthy of praise if your audience TELLS you it is.

And the ending isn't worth any praise.

You're still a great company with great ideas. You've had great successes, even in ME3. Be proud of those. But when it comes to a point of negativity, a point of criticism, a point of bitterness and heartache, resist the call to go on the defensive. The customer is always right; you blew it there.

And so what? Fix it. Rectify it. And then move on. You'll get a few bruises, but you'll have the knowledge to avoid those problems in the future. No work is perfect, but don't pretend that a universally hated part of your work IS perfect when it quite clearly, logically, and thematically is not.

Modifié par Garlador, 16 avril 2012 - 02:38 .

[Drake_Hound]

Dridengx wrote...

Well for one.. there isn't millions of fans who didn't like the ending, it wasn't even a quarter of a million. Many people are happy with ME3. So your argument is broken. If a few thousand get mad, move on, you can't force their hands and demand a company to do what you want.. you take it or leave it.

Sorry it doesn´t take a genious to understand the issue .
It doesn´t take a genious to see more and more people who never complained are complaining .

It doesn´t take a genious to see , people are increasing in numbers about the ending .
Why cause normally the **** storm would be over by now . except for the same people posting hate and love .

Most would go back to do what they do normally play games .

[Degs29]

Dridengx wrote...

Well for one.. there isn't millions of fans who didn't like the ending, it wasn't even a quarter of a million. Many people are happy with ME3. So your argument is broken. If a few thousand get mad, move on, you can't force their hands and demand a company to do what you want.. you take it or leave it.

Polls are showing that roughly 80 - 90% of fans found the endings lacking.  While polls usually capture the opinions of the most vocal, both sides are still represented in that regard.

Since ME3 sold 1.3 million copies in March alone, is it really outside the realm of possibilty that they reach 2 million?  Should I have said "a million" instead of millions?  Seems like your argument is a little trivial.

I will never demand something be done about the ME3 ending.  I'm asking for it fervently.

Modifié par Degs29, 16 avril 2012 - 02:47 .

[thunderhawk862002]

Degs29 wrote...

Dridengx wrote...

Well for one.. there isn't millions of fans who didn't like the ending, it wasn't even a quarter of a million. Many people are happy with ME3. So your argument is broken. If a few thousand get mad, move on, you can't force their hands and demand a company to do what you want.. you take it or leave it.

Polls are showing that roughly 80 - 90% of fans found the endings lacking.  While polls usually capture the opinions of the most vocal, both sides are still represented in that regard.

Since ME3 sold 1.3 million copies in March alone, is it really outside the realm of possibilty that they reach 2 million?  Should I have said "a million" instead of millions?  Seems like your argument is a little trivial.

Technically there are fans of ME that didn't buy the game because they heard about the ending.  A definitive number of who likes the ending, who doesn't like it and who doesn't care will never be known.

[HenchxNarf]

Vasarkian wrote...

Dridengx wrote...

Well for one.. there isn't millions of fans who didn't like the ending, it wasn't even a quarter of a million. Many people are happy with ME3. So your argument is broken. If a few thousand get mad, move on, you can't force their hands and demand a company to do what you want.. you take it or leave it.

To be honest even BioWare has admitted that they realize the vocal minority on the forums represent a very large group of potentially hundreds of thousands. Their pr departments at least know something about proper statistical analysis.

So there's really no way to determine how many people actually are on our side and aren't.

Uh. they haven't admitted to anything. Even 100,000 is hardly a blip to the fanbase.

[HenchxNarf]

Degs29 wrote...

Dridengx wrote...

Well for one.. there isn't millions of fans who didn't like the ending, it wasn't even a quarter of a million. Many people are happy with ME3. So your argument is broken. If a few thousand get mad, move on, you can't force their hands and demand a company to do what you want.. you take it or leave it.

Polls are showing that roughly 80 - 90% of fans found the endings lacking.  While polls usually capture the opinions of the most vocal, both sides are still represented in that regard.

Since ME3 sold 1.3 million copies in March alone, is it really outside the realm of possibilty that they reach 2 million?  Should I have said "a million" instead of millions?  Seems like your argument is a little trivial.

I will never demand something be done about the ME3 ending.  I'm asking for it fervently.

Polls aren't a valid source of numbers. Especially BSN polls.

[Vasarkian]

HenchxNarf wrote...

Vasarkian wrote...

Dridengx wrote...

Well for one.. there isn't millions of fans who didn't like the ending, it wasn't even a quarter of a million. Many people are happy with ME3. So your argument is broken. If a few thousand get mad, move on, you can't force their hands and demand a company to do what you want.. you take it or leave it.

To be honest even BioWare has admitted that they realize the vocal minority on the forums represent a very large group of potentially hundreds of thousands. Their pr departments at least know something about proper statistical analysis.

So there's really no way to determine how many people actually are on our side and aren't.

Uh. they haven't admitted to anything. Even 100,000 is hardly a blip to the fanbase.

They admitted far more than 100,000 and it makes a lot of sense that probably atleast 1/3rd if not more is disastisfied. You obviously have not read their PR statements or the PR statements of their community managers using statistics, or possibly are even aware of proper statistical analysis.

The polls people are going by aren't the BSN polls btw.

Modifié par Vasarkian, 16 avril 2012 - 02:50 .

[Degs29]

HenchxNarf wrote...

Degs29 wrote...

Dridengx wrote...

Well for one.. there isn't millions of fans who didn't like the ending, it wasn't even a quarter of a million. Many people are happy with ME3. So your argument is broken. If a few thousand get mad, move on, you can't force their hands and demand a company to do what you want.. you take it or leave it.

Polls are showing that roughly 80 - 90% of fans found the endings lacking.  While polls usually capture the opinions of the most vocal, both sides are still represented in that regard.

Since ME3 sold 1.3 million copies in March alone, is it really outside the realm of possibilty that they reach 2 million?  Should I have said "a million" instead of millions?  Seems like your argument is a little trivial.

I will never demand something be done about the ME3 ending.  I'm asking for it fervently.

Polls aren't a valid source of numbers. Especially BSN polls.

I won't argue that you're wrong about polls.  But statistically, you can easily say disappointed fans outway satisfied fans by an enormous margin, and that sample can be applied to the larger fanbase population.

Modifié par Degs29, 16 avril 2012 - 02:51 .

[Dridengx]

Degs29 wrote...

Dridengx wrote...

Well for one.. there isn't millions of fans who didn't like the ending, it wasn't even a quarter of a million. Many people are happy with ME3. So your argument is broken. If a few thousand get mad, move on, you can't force their hands and demand a company to do what you want.. you take it or leave it.

Polls are showing that roughly 80 - 90% of fans found the endings lacking.  While polls usually capture the opinions of the most vocal, both sides are still represented in that regard..

Here we go with the tired polls defense. Do you realize how many people voted on those polls? don't get stuck on the percentage that's in your favor, look at the numbers. they are pitiful in comparison to the consumer and fan base

[HenchxNarf]

Vasarkian wrote...

HenchxNarf wrote...

Vasarkian wrote...

Dridengx wrote...

Well for one.. there isn't millions of fans who didn't like the ending, it wasn't even a quarter of a million. Many people are happy with ME3. So your argument is broken. If a few thousand get mad, move on, you can't force their hands and demand a company to do what you want.. you take it or leave it.

To be honest even BioWare has admitted that they realize the vocal minority on the forums represent a very large group of potentially hundreds of thousands. Their pr departments at least know something about proper statistical analysis.

So there's really no way to determine how many people actually are on our side and aren't.

Uh. they haven't admitted to anything. Even 100,000 is hardly a blip to the fanbase.

They admitted far more than 100,000 and it makes a lot of sense that probably atleast 1/3rd if not more is disastisfied. You obviously have not read their PR statements or the PR statements of their community managers using statistics, or possibly are even aware of proper statistical analysis.

They have not released any numbers. The only statistic that has been released is from Jessica saying that the vocal minority is 9% who are angry.

Maybe you need to go back and read what has been said.

[Dridengx]

Degs29 wrote...
you can easily say disappointed fans outway satisfied fans by an enormous margin, and that sample can be applied to the larger fanbase population.

You can easily say it just I could easily say I'm A  Prime Minister of England but it doesn't make it true. You have no facts, you have no numbers good enoough to prove you are nothing but the size of Retake itself a mere few thousand who btw didn't like the ending, not that they wanted it changed

Modifié par Dridengx, 16 avril 2012 - 02:53 .

[Degs29]

Dridengx wrote...

Degs29 wrote...

Dridengx wrote...

Well for one.. there isn't millions of fans who didn't like the ending, it wasn't even a quarter of a million. Many people are happy with ME3. So your argument is broken. If a few thousand get mad, move on, you can't force their hands and demand a company to do what you want.. you take it or leave it.

Polls are showing that roughly 80 - 90% of fans found the endings lacking.  While polls usually capture the opinions of the most vocal, both sides are still represented in that regard..

Here we go with the tired polls defense. Do you realize how many people voted on those polls? don't get stuck on the percentage that's in your favor, look at the numbers. they are pitiful in comparison to the consumer and fan base

Validity of polls are often called into question...and yes, polls with a subset that is less than a pinprick to the population in question are suspect.  I don't think with the level of outcry we've seen that we have to worry about that, however.

Modifié par Degs29, 16 avril 2012 - 02:53 .

[Vasarkian]

HenchxNarf wrote...

Vasarkian wrote...

HenchxNarf wrote...

Vasarkian wrote...

Dridengx wrote...

Well for one.. there isn't millions of fans who didn't like the ending, it wasn't even a quarter of a million. Many people are happy with ME3. So your argument is broken. If a few thousand get mad, move on, you can't force their hands and demand a company to do what you want.. you take it or leave it.

To be honest even BioWare has admitted that they realize the vocal minority on the forums represent a very large group of potentially hundreds of thousands. Their pr departments at least know something about proper statistical analysis.

So there's really no way to determine how many people actually are on our side and aren't.

Uh. they haven't admitted to anything. Even 100,000 is hardly a blip to the fanbase.

They admitted far more than 100,000 and it makes a lot of sense that probably atleast 1/3rd if not more is disastisfied. You obviously have not read their PR statements or the PR statements of their community managers using statistics, or possibly are even aware of proper statistical analysis.

They have not released any numbers. The only statistic that has been released is from Jessica saying that the vocal minority is 9% who are angry.

Maybe you need to go back and read what has been said.

You just misquoted Jessica in the first place. If you're going to quote Jessica even if incorrectly, don't forget that she later stated that statistics show that the vocal part represents a non vocal part as well, and that's generally MUCH larger.

You're just a troll right now, I'll respond again when you stop being one.

[HenchxNarf]

Vasarkian wrote...

You just misquoted Jessica in the first place. If you're going to quote Jessica even if incorrectly, don't forget that she later stated that statistics show that the vocal part represents a non vocal part as well, and that's generally MUCH larger.

You're just a troll right now, I'll respond again when you stop being one.

LOL You need to learn what a troll is. I'm not a troll for calling you wrong.

BW has NOT released any numbers as to who is satisfied/dis-satisfied with the game/ending. They will likely never know enough numbers to release anything concrete, which is why they haven't said anything in the first place.

[jtrook]

Dridengx wrote...

Degs29 wrote...

Dridengx wrote...

Well for one.. there isn't millions of fans who didn't like the ending, it wasn't even a quarter of a million. Many people are happy with ME3. So your argument is broken. If a few thousand get mad, move on, you can't force their hands and demand a company to do what you want.. you take it or leave it.

Polls are showing that roughly 80 - 90% of fans found the endings lacking.  While polls usually capture the opinions of the most vocal, both sides are still represented in that regard..

Here we go with the tired polls defense. Do you realize how many people voted on those polls? don't get stuck on the percentage that's in your favor, look at the numbers. they are pitiful in comparison to the consumer and fan base

Why do I see you on EVERY post about the endings

[kbct]

Degs29 wrote...

Dridengx wrote...

Well for one.. there isn't millions of fans who didn't like the ending, it wasn't even a quarter of a million. Many people are happy with ME3. So your argument is broken. If a few thousand get mad, move on, you can't force their hands and demand a company to do what you want.. you take it or leave it.

Polls are showing that roughly 80 - 90% of fans found the endings lacking.  While polls usually capture the opinions of the most vocal, both sides are still represented in that regard.

Since ME3 sold 1.3 million copies in March alone, is it really outside the realm of possibilty that they reach 2 million?  Should I have said "a million" instead of millions?  Seems like your argument is a little trivial.

I will never demand something be done about the ME3 ending.  I'm asking for it fervently.

They don't know what they're talking about. It's most likely a majority. They ignore all evidence.

[Dridengx]

jtrook wrote...
Why do I see you on EVERY post about the endings

Why are you entering EVERY thread about the endings to come to that assumption? we all go to the same threads posted on the forum? How about I let you decide this case detective. I'm dying to hear your opinion on the matter since you feel its soo important to go off topic to ask this question

Modifié par Dridengx, 16 avril 2012 - 02:58 .

[thunderhawk862002]

HenchxNarf wrote...

Vasarkian wrote...

HenchxNarf wrote...

Vasarkian wrote...

Dridengx wrote...

Well for one.. there isn't millions of fans who didn't like the ending, it wasn't even a quarter of a million. Many people are happy with ME3. So your argument is broken. If a few thousand get mad, move on, you can't force their hands and demand a company to do what you want.. you take it or leave it.

To be honest even BioWare has admitted that they realize the vocal minority on the forums represent a very large group of potentially hundreds of thousands. Their pr departments at least know something about proper statistical analysis.

So there's really no way to determine how many people actually are on our side and aren't.

Uh. they haven't admitted to anything. Even 100,000 is hardly a blip to the fanbase.

They admitted far more than 100,000 and it makes a lot of sense that probably atleast 1/3rd if not more is disastisfied. You obviously have not read their PR statements or the PR statements of their community managers using statistics, or possibly are even aware of proper statistical analysis.

They have not released any numbers. The only statistic that has been released is from Jessica saying that the vocal minority is 9% who are angry.

Maybe you need to go back and read what has been said.

Where is the thread with the 9% quote.  I highly doubt that a company like EA would spend money to develop a DLC to be offered for free with only 9% of the people not happy.

Modifié par thunderhawk862002, 16 avril 2012 - 02:59 .

[Vasarkian]

HenchxNarf wrote...

Vasarkian wrote...

You just misquoted Jessica in the first place. If you're going to quote Jessica even if incorrectly, don't forget that she later stated that statistics show that the vocal part represents a non vocal part as well, and that's generally MUCH larger.

You're just a troll right now, I'll respond again when you stop being one.

LOL You need to learn what a troll is. I'm not a troll for calling you wrong.

BW has NOT released any numbers as to who is satisfied/dis-satisfied with the game/ending. They will likely never know enough numbers to release anything concrete, which is why they haven't said anything in the first place.

Her statement was that 8-9% of the community is considered vocal, and that they represent a much larger percent that is non-vocal and that it isn't insignificant.

If you're going to quote people do it correctly. So long as you don't, you are just trolling and continually ignoring facts.

Other information HAS ALSO been indicated, and NUMEROUS polls across the entirety of the internet where people congregate have also ALL led to the majority disliking the ending in some capacity or entirely.

[Degs29]

aLucidMind wrote...
To be fair, neither side can really say exactly how many people liked or disliked the ending since the vast majority will not be posting on the internet one way or the other. So while claiming "millions of people" is wrong, it is just as incorrect to say that there aren't even a quarter of one-million who dislike the ending.

I'd like to clarify that I didn't actually say that millions of people hated the ending.

Modifié par Degs29, 16 avril 2012 - 03:00 .

[Banelash]

Dridengx wrote...

Degs29 wrote...
you can easily say disappointed fans outway satisfied fans by an enormous margin, and that sample can be applied to the larger fanbase population.

You can easily say it just I could easily say I'm A  Prime Minister of England but it doesn't make it true. You have no facts, you have no numbers good enoough to prove you are nothing but the size of Retake itself a mere few thousand who btw didn't like the ending, not that they wanted it changed

Obviously ignorance is bliss for some. Please go read up about statistics before making arguments that clearly show your immaturity and ignorance.

You don't think all 4 million players are on this server did you? Use your brain for once.