48 réponses à ce sujet

[GhostMatter]

Any negative for killing Ser Cauthrien? I got a sword just as good but I'm wondering if there's something bad that can happen by killing her? (the ending for example)

[Maria Caliban]

Nope.

[GhostMatter]

Okie, nice! Thanks. I want to the goodest ending possible for my character. It's a shame there's not more about her. At least the Summer Sword's story is nice.

[Dermain]

You just skip a quest, and an interaction before the Landsmeet(where you kill her anyways).

[KalosCast]

Cauthrien's pretty much just a requisite throwaway boss character.

[Original182]

Myrkale wrote...

You just skip a quest, and an interaction before the Landsmeet(where you kill her anyways).

You can succeed a persuade check and Cauthrien will admit she has doubts of Loghain. She let's you go and pleads that you somehow spare him.

Though this is a personal choice then. Why kill someone who knows the meaning of loyalty, even if misplaced? Cauthrien is clearly a good soldier who was just merely following orders, with no malicious intent.

[Roxlimn]

If you don't kill Ser Cauthrien, you don't get the Summer Sword. Why miss the phat lewt?

[Maria Caliban]

Roxlimn wrote...

If you don't kill Ser Cauthrien, you don't get the Summer Sword. Why miss the phat lewt?

She's cute, and rather noble. She'd make a great lawful stupid paladin.

[berelinde]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Roxlimn wrote...

If you don't kill Ser Cauthrien, you don't get the Summer Sword. Why miss the phat lewt?

She's cute, and rather noble. She'd make a great lawful stupid paladin.

I'm running a male HN rogue this playthrough, romancing Leliana, but he's a bit of a tramp. He would really, really like to get to know Ser Cauthrien better, in any number of ways.

No, that isn't as sick as it sounds. He finds her loyalty to a man who has already disappointed her fascinating. After all, we see her displeasure when Loghain orders his troops to retreat after the signal beacon is lit. We know she has to have some doubts. But she sucks it up and stays loyal anyway. Such fervent devotion strikes a chord with Beldin, my current PC, mostly because he would really like something to believe in that fervently himself, but never mind. He'd really like a chance to have a chat with her. He'd like to do other things, too, provided he could conceal it from Leliana, but he'll settle for a nice long talk. And then a dip in a really chilly pool.

[Bryy_Miller]

Myrkale wrote...

You just skip a quest, and an interaction before the Landsmeet(where you kill her anyways).

I was and am still a little ticked off that you end up killing SC no matter what. She seemed like she was going to have a character arc.

[CloudOfShadows]

I got by her without killing her.

[asaiasai]

Original182 wrote...

Myrkale wrote...

You just skip a quest, and an interaction before the Landsmeet(where you kill her anyways).

You can succeed a persuade check and Cauthrien will admit she has doubts of Loghain. She let's you go and pleads that you somehow spare him.

Though this is a personal choice then. Why kill someone who knows the meaning of loyalty, even if misplaced? Cauthrien is clearly a good soldier who was just merely following orders, with no malicious intent.

Not to be a wet blanket here but as a former US Army soldier we were subject to something called the UCMJ (Uniformed Code of Military Justice). In basic training it was drilled into our heads that if we were given an order and the order was obviously illegal if we followed the order we were as guilty as the person who gave the order and subject to the same diciplinary action as the issuer, sometimes even more so. 

Now i will agree that during the time frame of DA:O civility was less of a bother for those who issued orders, but to try and absolve Ser Catherine of any guilt by saying she was just following orders is specious. I do realize that at Ostragar she would have had to kill Loghain or be killed by him in order to countermand his order to leave. My feeling is that if Ser Catherine had been as loyal to Feraldin as she claims in the landsmeet chamber as opposed to Loghain she would have done this. Ser Catherine deserves as much blame as Loghain for all the deaths both at his hands and the people in places like Lotharin that killing her IMHO is probably the greateest public service next to killing Loghain that the PC can perfom, well next to defeating the blight.

She deserves what ever she gets and so does Loghain, but the nice thing about the game is that you get to decide, got to love that.

Asai

[SeanMurphy2]

After Ostager it is a civil war for the throne. It is not like Loghain's forces are clearly fighting on the side of evil. Loghain needs to quickly re-establish order in the Kingdom and deal with the threat from the Darkspawn and Orlais. Presumably he genuinely believes that Orlais are preparing to attack from the Western border.



She seems to have fairly romantic ideas about being a Knight and fighting alongside Loghain. She comes from a poor farming background and thinks of Loghain as a hero. It is difficult to dramatically change her viewpoint.

[Behindyounow]

Killing her was one of my favourite moments of the game. I hated that cow.



Its a shame you couldn't kill Anora as well.

[Eonassassin]

Behindyounow wrote...

Killing her was one of my favourite moments of the game. I hated that cow.

Its a shame you couldn't kill Anora as well.

Yea  I wish we could kill Anora, she annoys the **** out of me, probably the second most annoying character next to Jowan

[Alastrian]

Is unwavering loyalty to a tyrannical usurper really supposed to be impressive?



Whatever Ser Cauthrien's background, whatever Loghain may have done in the distant past, Alistair is the only heir to the throne with a genuine birthright, and the Grey Warden has evidence that is crucial in the case that Arl Eamon is presenting to the Landsmeet. Her actions outside the chamber are nothing short of an obstruction of justice.



Yes you can talk her down... but then she walks away from having committed just one more in a long string of crimes she has either committed or been an accessory to because of her 'unwaveringly loyalty' to the usurper and Tyrant In Chief.



So off with her head, and a new sword for Oghren or Sten.

[GhostMatter]

It's... disappointing there's not more about her. Same for Howe as another thread made me see when I did a search. Oh well, I guess someone will make a mod someday

[SeanMurphy2]

Without Loghain, Ferelden would still be occupied and the Calenhad line may have died out a generation earlier. Loghain is regent and his daughter queen. Alistair is unproven and without DNA testing how do they even prove his birthright. It is silly to put a complete unknown on the throne in a crisis.

There are two perspectives to the civil war. Eamon and the other nobles could have backed down early so the Kingdom could be united under Loghain to stop the Blight or Orlais.

I don't think it is unreasonable for her to be loyal to Loghain. He is the official Regent and his daughter is Queen. He is a war hero who liberated the country. It is a crisis situation and he is a proven leader and general. She also has a long history with him so presumably trusts him.

And it takes a while for a person's core beliefs to change. Just like Alistair is attached to Duncan.

Modifié par SeanMurphy2, 06 décembre 2009 - 03:22 .

[Galad22]

SeanMurphy2 wrote...

Without Loghain, Ferelden would still be occupied and the Calenhad line may have died out a generation earlier. Loghain is regent and his daughter queen. Alistair is unproven and without DNA testing how do they even prove his birthright. It is silly to put a complete unknown on the throne in a crisis.

There are two perspectives to the civil war. Eamon and the other nobles could have backed down early so the Kingdom could be united under Loghain to stop the Blight or Orlais.

I don't think it is unreasonable for her to be loyal to Loghain. He is the official Regent and his daughter is Queen. He is a war hero who liberated the country. It is a crisis situation and he is a proven leader and general. She also has a long history with him so presumably trusts him.

And it takes a while for a person's core beliefs to change. Just like Alistair is attached to Duncan.

And thanks to Loghain Ferelden is almost no more at the end of the game.

And Loghain could just as easily backed down from regency as Bannorn demanded and let someone more trustworthy like her daughter for example rule, I doubt nobility would have had any issues at that point and Eamon wouldn't propably even pushed Alistair forward as a king at that point.

[biomag]

Loghain sacrificed a big part of the army together with all available Grey Wardens just because he thought his daughter with his help would be the better regent than the (pretty dumb) king. If he really would have cared about the safety of his country he could have the king killed on a patrol or killed by "friendly fire" during a battle... he planed all the battles anyhow, no one would have questioned a "strange" battle plan too much - Calain the least of them, even if he had to charge at the head of a tiny vanguard into deep roads.



All Loghain achieved were the loss of an army, the loss of the most experienced and specialized unit he had against this foe and the start of a civil war. This is plain simple to rate: extremely stupid.



Sorry, Loghain is hungry for power and nothing else. He risked everything just because the king was a hopeless romantic when it comes to battles. Especially considering that the Grey Wardens are not loyal to the king. Convincing Duncan that keeping Calain would endanger the outcome of the war, he may even could get the Wardens on his side as they don't care about politics, are above the law and just want to terminate the dark spawn by any means.

To make the whole plan of Loghain even worse, he gained exactly nothing from it. While the king was alive, Loghain commanded the army and his daughter reigned the country. Calain was just the figurehead. After the battle, he was the leader of the army (just a little less because of the losses and the civil war), his daughter was in charge of the country (just a little less because of the civil war) and the young king was dead... ah yes, half the nation wanted Loghain's head. Great plan.



Anyone following him, knowing his plans and supporting him is as guilty as him. So Ser Cauthrien deserves the fate of a traitor and nothing less.

[Alastrian]

SeanMurphy2 wrote...

Without Loghain, Ferelden would still be occupied and the Calenhad line may have died out a generation earlier. Loghain is regent and his daughter queen. Alistair is unproven and without DNA testing how do they even prove his birthright. It is silly to put a complete unknown on the throne in a crisis.

Well other than the resemblence Alistair has with Cailin (which Anora herself mentions)... you may have a point. But part of the case being presented before the Landsmeet is the question of his birthright. Its outrageous to bar Alistair from entering the Landsmeet chamber since his birthright is a big part of the case.

There are two perspectives to the civil war. Eamon and the other nobles could have backed down early so the Kingdom could be united under Loghain to stop the Blight or Orlais.

Terrible precedent to set there. That would be rewarding the actions of a usurper. Regardless of Loghain's motives for his actions, he is still a traitor to his king (his best friend's son no less), a usurper of commoner blood and birth, and a tyrant who seems to fail to understand that the power and authority of the king in Fereldan arises from the support of the Freeholders. Ironically, Loghain's actions after becoming Regent mirror the very Orlesian tyrants he despises so much.

And try telling the refugees who have lost everything to the Blight... 'sorry, but we all have to follow the guy who let the defensible bottleneck that could have held the Blight at bay fall to the darkspawn.'

I don't think it is unreasonable for her to be loyal to Loghain. He is the official Regent and his daughter is Queen. He is a war hero who liberated the country. It is a crisis situation and he is a proven leader and general. She also has a long history with him so presumably trusts him.

Well he is only the Regent because he has a big enough army to bully the Bannorn into line. Bann Teagan's blunt statement at the first Landsmeet that Loghain calls as Regent sums it all up. He can't be the legitimate Regent if the Bannorn and the Freeholders are going to contest his claim.

As for being a war hero... how does that excuse treason and tyrannical behaviour? The war he won was decades ago.

And the crisis situation was pretty much his doing. Ostagar was a bottleneck that could have held the Blight at bay until the Grey Wardens could find the Archdemon and slay it. I don't see any wisdom to trusting the man who escalated the crisis to fix it.

And even if Ser Cauthrien's loyalty isn't unreasonable given their history... it doesn't pardon her from bearing responsibility for her actions. If she truly desires to remain loyal to Loghain and can't stand 'shaming' herself by doing the right thing and stepping aside, she might as well just fall on her sword for him.

And it takes a while for a person's core beliefs to change. Just like Alistair is attached to Duncan.

Unfortunate, but true. But again... how does that absolve someone from all responsibility for their own actions? In her hero worship, she was an accessory to treason, accessory to Arl Howe's torture of nobles, accessory to the slaving operation in the Alienage cooked up by Loghain and his Tevinter buddies, and not to mention that final count of obstruction of justice. Also, she might possibly have been on the front lines slaughtering Bannorn soldiers whose lords took up arms against a man they rightly perceived to be a tyrant.

[Alastrian]

Disregard the double post

Modifié par Alastrian, 06 décembre 2009 - 03:55 .

[SeanMurphy2]

Mid game Loghain is a bit of disaster. He appears to do nothing about the Darkspawn invasion. He causes a mess at Redcliffe and the Circle Tower. He quickly loses the support of the nobles. He can't win the civil war without selling slaves.

But when he made his decision at Ostager he would not have known the disastrous reprecussions for the Kingdom. Presumably he genuinely believed that Orlais was going to invade. So he needed to position his forces close to the Orlais border rather than worrying about disorganised Darkspawn in the wilds.

Cauthrien seems a bit simple and guileless. I am not sure how involved she was in his scheming.

Modifié par SeanMurphy2, 06 décembre 2009 - 04:06 .

[SeanMurphy2]

Alastrian wrote...

Terrible precedent to set there. That would be rewarding the actions of a usurper. Regardless of Loghain's motives for his actions, he is still a traitor to his king (his best friend's son no less), a usurper of commoner blood and birth, and a tyrant who seems to fail to understand that the power and authority of the king in Fereldan arises from the support of the Freeholders. Ironically, Loghain's actions after becoming Regent mirror the very Orlesian tyrants he despises so much.

.
.

-I agree Cauthrien was wrong to stop Alistair from entering the Landsmeet. She really seems to lose it there. In your previous meeting with her, she seems focused on following the rules.

-There was still a lot of conjecture about what happened at Ostager. I think it does not gain many Landsmeet votes if you accuse Loghain of betraying the King.

It is a crisis situation. Loghain is already in place as regent. There does not seem to be many other great generals. They could have supported Loghain during the war against the Darkspawn. And then dealt with the other issues later.

- He is a respected war hero. So it means people may be easily biased towards his version of events. And since he is a famous general. They may feel that he is the only one who can defeat the Darkspawn. Rather than some unknown Grey Warden or another politician.

- I don't know how much knowledge Cauthrien had of his schemes. I wish she was more visible in the mid game.

[Alastrian]

SeanMurphy2 wrote...

Mid game Loghain is a bit of disaster. He appears to do nothing about the Darkspawn invasion. He causes a mess at Redcliffe and the Circle Tower. He quickly loses the support of the nobles. He can't win the civil war without selling slaves.

And that makes slaving right how? If anything I'd say that him selling slaves to the Tevinters is actually detrimental to the goal of winning the civil war. The Landsmeet don't react too well to him when the slavery is brought up. And for someone who is so hostile to the idea of letting Orlesian 'tyrants' into Fereldan, it reeks of hypocrisy to be inviting Tevinter tyrants right in to the Alienage to kidnap and traffic elves who are completely innocent of any involvement one way or the other in the political situation.

But at Ostager he would not have known the disastrous reprecussions for the Kingdom. Presumably he genuinely believed that Orlais was going to invade. So he needed to position his forces close to the Orlais border rather than worrying about disorganised Darkspawn in the wilds.

The darkspawn were hardly disorganized at Ostagar. And given that there had been four Blights already, there's certainly enough historical precedent to defer to the judgment of the Grey Wardens when they say that it is a Blight. And its not like Cailin was rolling out the welcome mat for Orlesian Chevaliers... the Orlesian reinforcements were Grey Wardens.

Cauthrien seems a bit simple and guileless. I am not sure how involved she was in his scheming.

If she was so 'simple'... why does she question Loghain's order to quit the field? She is not naive... she knows well enough that her hero is committing an act of treason. And one does not have to be involved in the scheming to be an accessory to it... or an enabler. As it is often said, the triumph of evil comes when good people do nothing. Regardless of how good she might be otherwise in other areas of her career and her persona... she is still an enabler of evil.