270 réponses à ce sujet

[Zine2]

Standard Zine2 thread. Harsh, but you'll learn something.

Defenders of the ending often use this argument.

You cannot judge the Reaper's actions, because they are operating from a different perspective. We are but ants to them. Hence, you should put aside any revulsion at being forced to work for a mass-murderer like the Catalyst and happily take part in his next "Solution".

This is what is called "moral relativism". Murder might be immoral in our society, but it's perfectly acceptable for the Reapers, because their "perspective" is different. So we should "understand" that the Reapers are operating from a different "perspective" and follow them like obedient sheep.

The problem is this: The Reapers aren't just operating on a different set of morals. They are so factually retarded that they can be considered clinically insane; or they are lying. Either way, they are not worthy of support or sympathy.

Facts are facts. An apple is an apple. It is NOT an orange. That is a fact, no matter your perspective. The truth depends on physical realities, not on imaginary relationships you constructed in your imagination.

So when the Reapers equate "killing" with "saving" ("We are your salvation through destruction"), what they are saying is simply factually wrong. They are saying an "Apple" is an "Orange". Thus, only two conclusions are possible:

1) They are lying - they know it's an apple but insist on calling it an orange.

2) They are clinically insane - they literally cannot tell the difference between an apple and an orange because their cognitive skills are worse than a five year old. It doesn't matter if you have infinite processing power or ten thousand years worth of data. If you cannot tell an apple from an orange, you are suffering from a proveable mental disorder, and therefore your opinions has as much merit as a madman in a padded cell, or a senile old man. Being older does not automatically make you wiser or deeper.

There is no other room for other "interpretations". This is the harsh reality of the ending. You can close your eyes, cover your ears, and go LALALALA, but that's the truth of it. The Reapers are lying or clinically insane.

So when they say they are "beyond our understanding", we shouldn't look at them with awe or wonder. They just can't admit that they're so monumentally stupid or dishonest that their arguments have absolutely no merit.

Factual analysis always trumps moral relativism. Reality always trumps the voices in your head. Until people who like the ending open their eyes and stop covering their ears and realize how wrong the Reaper's argument is - on a factual level; not just a "moral" one - then they're never going to understand why 92% of the people polled hated the ending.

Modifié par Zine2, 16 avril 2012 - 04:10 .

[Nuchy]

Hmmm OP after reading your OP I have decided that you are wrong. I do not support the ending but you are wrong. The Reapers dont just wipe out people, they harvest some of them. 

Its suppose to seem like they are at the top of the food chain. 

We harvest cattle dont we? And yet we kill deer for a sport. 

Same premise, they just do things because they can. We must seem like genocidal monsters to animals on Earth. Look at what we've done to them?

Modifié par Nuchy, 16 avril 2012 - 10:20 .

[Riion]

-Philosophy Mode, ACTIVATE-
It is only a physical reality to you because you perceive it as so... take away your senses, and your reality ceases to exist...

[Zine2]

Riion wrote...

-Philosophy Mode, ACTIVATE-
It is only a physical reality to you because you perceive it as so... take away your senses, and your reality ceases to exist...

What you're describing is called Solipsism, and that is a completely and utterly useless perspective to apply in a world wherein there are multiple actors beyond your control. If you act as though only your mind exists and nothing else is real, you would simply be described as someone with a mental disorder - which again puts you in the "clinically insane" category.

We live in a real world. We should treat the game as a "real" world with a setting and other actors. Deal with it.

Otherwise, resorting to this argument is a tacit admission that the Indoctrination Theory is not only plausible, but it is the correct ending. That it really was all a dream in Shepard's head, because the only thing that matters is what's in your head and not "reality". 

Modifié par Zine2, 16 avril 2012 - 04:18 .

[Johcande XX]

Your argument is indeed insightful, the only defense I can give the reapers is that the line "salvation through destruction" was way more suited to the storyline that included stopping the spread of dark energy.

Edit:  Having to kill a population in order to gather the necessary resources to prevent an apocalypse.

Modifié par Johcande XX, 16 avril 2012 - 04:21 .

[sth128]

Zine2 wrote...


Factual analysis always trumps moral relativism. Reality always trumps the voices in your head.

O RLY? What if the Reapers told Shepard that they'd stop the cycle if he'd admit that apples are oranges? Huh? What then?

STAR CHILD 4EVA!!!

/troll mode

[Riion]

Zine2 wrote...

Riion wrote...

-Philosophy Mode, ACTIVATE-
It is only a physical reality to you because you perceive it as so... take away your senses, and your reality ceases to exist...

What you're describing is called Solipsism, and that is a completely and utterly useless perspective to apply in a world wherein there are multiple actors beyond your control. If you act as though only your mind exists and nothing else is real, you would simply be described as someone with a mental disorder - which again puts you in the "clinically insane" category.

We live in a real world. We should treat the game as a "real" world with a setting and other actors. Deal with it.

Otherwise, resorting to this argument is a tacit admission that the Indoctrination Theory is not only plausible, but it is the correct ending. That it really was all a dream in Shepard's head, because the only thing that matters is what's in your head and not "reality". 

Solipsism, eh? You learn something new everyday, I was going for a more David Hume kinda feel. 

[Taxonomy]

Your premise is faulty.

The Reapers are entirely aware that they're killing people. But they're not just killing people; they're creating an "archive" of sorts from them. The stated reason is that, if this did not occur, civilizations would be wiped out without a trace in some galactic war.

The Reapers aren't concerned with individual salvation. They're concerned with collective salvation.

Not that that makes the ending any better.

[neubourn]

Funny, you mentioned not to use our perspectives, but then proceeded to use your own perspective to define a phrase the Reapers used (Salvation through destruction).

Salvation can mean many things: it can be saving from harm, yes...thats one definition. It can also be defined as redemption, which could also be applied here. Or it can refer to the metaphysical saving of ones soul...unlikely here, but not an impossibility.

Fact, is, this is ENTIRELY about perspective..."Salvation" and "Destruction" are perceived differently as a Reaper then we would perceive them.

[Athlonis1]

Well said. Another well reasoned argument against the ending.

[JShepppp]

Nobody said accepting the Reapers' operate with different normative perspectives means you have to agree with them. If they did it's their opinion and there's nothing wrong with that. The Reapers believe they're ascending and we're not given enough evidence to go either way other than that people don't want to be ascended. I didn't agree with the Catalyst but I didn't blindly hate him because I was too narrow-minded and self-righteous to assume that my normative perspective was the only one applicable.

Murder = killing is a fact.
Murder = wrong is a normative/moral statement.

Reapers = killing is a semi-fact because we don't know to what extent their minds are saved (it could be a bigger example of Geth/Overlord - see below).
Reapers = wrong is a normative/moral statement.
Reapers = salvation is a normative/moral statement (the Reapers "should" reap). For someone who views being uploaded to a Reaper as salvation, it is. You may suggest they're stupid and delusional but that's your opinion; being stupid is not a fact because there is no "measurable" black/white way of being stupid.

This is why I advocate getting away from moral perspectives because there is no right answer.

You assume turning into genetic mush is killing the person. In real life this is true. This is science fiction. People should be willing to make leaps of faith in science fiction at their own judgement. FTL travel is nonsense, but if you can believe in FTL travel and if Shepard can have his mind uploaded to the Geth consciousness/Overlord, then what's to say he can't have it uploaded to a Reaper, whose technology is far more advanced? We don't know how damage/changes in Shep's physical body affect him while his consciousness has been uploaded. One would assume the Reapers' uploading tech is far more advanced than Overlord/Geth.

You're applying your own moral code to everything and calling people who disagree with it as stupid. Which is fair enough in your opinion but no offense bro if I read the OP correctly you're asking others to be open to your type of restricted moral code which is a kind of hypocrisy.

You have a self-given penchant for being harsh for the sake of being truthful but I'm worried you're being blinded by what you're trying to talk about for the sake of trying to be blunt and decisive.

Ethics and morals have no real, factual answers.

Whether or not the Reapers actually save people is open to interpretation. Probably 99%+ people, including myself, think they don't save people. But for the <1% that do, they're entitled to their opinion, and are entitled to have their opinion in peace without a Moral **** trying to enforce their views.

Just my two cents. Cheers.

[Zine2]

Taxonomy wrote...

The Reapers are entirely aware that they're killing people. But they're not just killing people; they're creating an "archive" of sorts from them.

Factually wrong. Stop imagining things that never actually happened in the game.

We see exactly what happens when you are "harvested". They dump nano-machines on you and turn you into paste. The paste is then used to build identical crablike machines. 

Nothing that resembles life or the previous civilization remains.

Not to mention that they do not even harvest everyone. Sometimes they just dump a few nukes and kill everyone.

Hence, there is no "archive". There is not even a "memorial". The process can be only factually described as the Reapers simply eating people. Again, we are talking about REALITIES, not the stupid and pointless connections that you can come up with in your head.

It is like someone killing and eating a chicken, and then claiming you saved the chicken because it is now part of you forever. Some people may claim that this is a "deep" and "clever" interpretation, but they're just lying to themselves. Because that "interpretation" relies PURELY on making imaginary connections in your head. It has ZERO basis in actual fact.

[FS3D]

Zine2 wrote...

Riion wrote...

-Philosophy Mode, ACTIVATE-
It is only a physical reality to you because you perceive it as so... take away your senses, and your reality ceases to exist...

What you're describing is called Solipsism, and that is a completely and utterly useless perspective to apply in a world wherein there are multiple actors beyond your control. If you act as though only your mind exists and nothing else is real, you would simply be described as someone with a mental disorder - which again puts you in the "clinically insane" category.

We live in a real world. We should treat the game as a "real" world with a setting and other actors. Deal with it.

Otherwise, resorting to this argument is a tacit admission that the Indoctrination Theory is not only plausible, but it is the correct ending. That it really was all a dream in Shepard's head, because the only thing that matters is what's in your head and not "reality". 

Yup... This is one of those +1 posts ;-)

Solipsism renders any conversation about what's going on around you completely useless.

[Zine2]

neubourn wrote...

Funny, you mentioned not to use our perspectives, but then proceeded to use your own perspective to define a phrase the Reapers used (Salvation through destruction). 

Semantic wiggling.

I didn't use the term "salvation". The Reapers did. They also used the term "saving".

Hence the idea that it is from my perspective is faulty - this is the stated  goals of the Reapers themselves. And again, "saving" and "killing" are not synonyms. Anyone who thinks they are is clinically insane. It's that simple.

[FS3D]

Zine2 wrote...

Taxonomy wrote...

The Reapers are entirely aware that they're killing people. But they're not just killing people; they're creating an "archive" of sorts from them.

Factually wrong. Stop imagining things that never actually happened in the game.

We see exactly what happens when you are "harvested". They dump nano-machines on you and turn you into paste. The paste is then used to build identical crablike machines. 

Nothing that resembles life or the previous civilization remains.

Not to mention that they do not even harvest everyone. Sometimes they just dump a few nukes and kill everyone.

Hence, there is no "archive". There is not even a "memorial". The process can be only factually described as the Reapers simply eating people. Again, we are talking about REALITIES, not the stupid and pointless connections that you can come up with in your head.

It is like someone killing and eating a chicken, and then claiming you saved the chicken because it is now part of you forever. Some people may claim that this is a "deep" and "clever" interpretation, but they're just lying to themselves. Because that "interpretation" relies PURELY on making imaginary connections in your head. It has ZERO basis in actual fact.

People often need to be reminded of this important point when they speculate about what's happening in the ME universe and then asserting said speculations as fact...

If it's not in the game, either through the storyline or the in-game Codex, it didn't happen, no matter which Twitter feed you read or whose blog posts you have seen.

[spartan5127]

FS3D wrote...

Zine2 wrote...

Riion wrote...

-Philosophy Mode, ACTIVATE-
It is only a physical reality to you because you perceive it as so... take away your senses, and your reality ceases to exist...

What you're describing is called Solipsism, and that is a completely and utterly useless perspective to apply in a world wherein there are multiple actors beyond your control. If you act as though only your mind exists and nothing else is real, you would simply be described as someone with a mental disorder - which again puts you in the "clinically insane" category.

We live in a real world. We should treat the game as a "real" world with a setting and other actors. Deal with it.

Otherwise, resorting to this argument is a tacit admission that the Indoctrination Theory is not only plausible, but it is the correct ending. That it really was all a dream in Shepard's head, because the only thing that matters is what's in your head and not "reality". 

Yup... This is one of those +1 posts ;-)

Solipsism renders any conversation about what's going on around you completely useless.

Solipsism is awesome.  It's one of those wacky views that is internally consistant (i.e. you can't prove to me that I am not the only agent), which is facinating.

[Riion]

FS3D wrote...

Zine2 wrote...

Riion wrote...

-Philosophy Mode, ACTIVATE-
It is only a physical reality to you because you perceive it as so... take away your senses, and your reality ceases to exist...

What you're describing is called Solipsism, and that is a completely and utterly useless perspective to apply in a world wherein there are multiple actors beyond your control. If you act as though only your mind exists and nothing else is real, you would simply be described as someone with a mental disorder - which again puts you in the "clinically insane" category.

We live in a real world. We should treat the game as a "real" world with a setting and other actors. Deal with it.

Otherwise, resorting to this argument is a tacit admission that the Indoctrination Theory is not only plausible, but it is the correct ending. That it really was all a dream in Shepard's head, because the only thing that matters is what's in your head and not "reality". 

Yup... This is one of those +1 posts ;-)

Solipsism renders any conversation about what's going on around you completely useless.

You can't prove anything 8D

[FS3D]

Riion wrote...

FS3D wrote...

Zine2 wrote...

Riion wrote...

-Philosophy Mode, ACTIVATE-
It is only a physical reality to you because you perceive it as so... take away your senses, and your reality ceases to exist...

What you're describing is called Solipsism, and that is a completely and utterly useless perspective to apply in a world wherein there are multiple actors beyond your control. If you act as though only your mind exists and nothing else is real, you would simply be described as someone with a mental disorder - which again puts you in the "clinically insane" category.

We live in a real world. We should treat the game as a "real" world with a setting and other actors. Deal with it.

Otherwise, resorting to this argument is a tacit admission that the Indoctrination Theory is not only plausible, but it is the correct ending. That it really was all a dream in Shepard's head, because the only thing that matters is what's in your head and not "reality". 

Yup... This is one of those +1 posts ;-)

Solipsism renders any conversation about what's going on around you completely useless.

You can't prove anything 8D

Yes I can! All I need to do is.... Oh... Wait...

[sistersafetypin]

Zine2 wrote...

Taxonomy wrote...

The Reapers are entirely aware that they're killing people. But they're not just killing people; they're creating an "archive" of sorts from them.

Factually wrong. Stop imagining things that never actually happened in the game.

We see exactly what happens when you are "harvested". They dump nano-machines on you and turn you into paste. The paste is then used to build identical crablike machines. 

Nothing that resembles life or the previous civilization remains.

Not to mention that they do not even harvest everyone. Sometimes they just dump a few nukes and kill everyone.

Hence, there is no "archive". There is not even a "memorial". The process can be only factually described as the Reapers simply eating people. Again, we are talking about REALITIES, not the stupid and pointless connections that you can come up with in your head.

It is like someone killing and eating a chicken, and then claiming you saved the chicken because it is now part of you forever. Some people may claim that this is a "deep" and "clever" interpretation, but they're just lying to themselves. Because that "interpretation" relies PURELY on making imaginary connections in your head. It has ZERO basis in actual fact.

I completely agree with this and your original post OP. Logical errors made in the ending are numerous

[FS3D]

spartan5127 wrote...

FS3D wrote...

Zine2 wrote...

Riion wrote...

-Philosophy Mode, ACTIVATE-
It is only a physical reality to you because you perceive it as so... take away your senses, and your reality ceases to exist...

What you're describing is called Solipsism, and that is a completely and utterly useless perspective to apply in a world wherein there are multiple actors beyond your control. If you act as though only your mind exists and nothing else is real, you would simply be described as someone with a mental disorder - which again puts you in the "clinically insane" category.

We live in a real world. We should treat the game as a "real" world with a setting and other actors. Deal with it.

Otherwise, resorting to this argument is a tacit admission that the Indoctrination Theory is not only plausible, but it is the correct ending. That it really was all a dream in Shepard's head, because the only thing that matters is what's in your head and not "reality". 

Yup... This is one of those +1 posts ;-)

Solipsism renders any conversation about what's going on around you completely useless.

Solipsism is awesome.  It's one of those wacky views that is internally consistant (i.e. you can't prove to me that I am not the only agent), which is facinating.

It may be fascinating if you like that sort of thing... But it's still useless when trying to make discoveries about the world or when trying to work within the confines of reality itself.

[Zine2]

JShepppp wrote...

Nobody said accepting the Reapers' operate with different normative perspectives means you have to agree with them. If they did it's their opinion and there's nothing wrong with that.

Some opinions are, in fact, factually wrong. And should not be given the honor of being called an "opinion". They should simply be called lies.

The Reapers believe they're ascending and we're not given enough evidence to go either way other than that people don't want to be ascended.

 
Wrong. We have evidence. There is no light at the end of the tunnel. When you are "ascended", you are turned into nano paste and made part of a giant crab.

Again, you have to intentionally delude and lie to people in order to justify "ascension"; when it is in fact simply murder. And I use "murder" as a factual and not a moral term - it is the deliberate killing of an individual.
 
We get a first-hand view of the process with Kelly Chambers if you fail to rescue her. There is no "Ifs" or "Buts" about it. It is killing. It is murder. Pretending it isn't is to engage in lying.

You're applying your own moral code to everything and calling people who disagree with it as stupid.

No, I am saying that I am factually correct, and that you are lying by continually pretending it's a "moral" stand. Killing is killing. Killing is not saving. An apple is not an orange.

You can pretend it didn't happen. You can pretend it's ascension. That only makes you a liar. Again, opinions that are based on falsehoods are not opinons, they are simply LIES.

Modifié par Zine2, 16 avril 2012 - 04:44 .

[Riion]

FS3D wrote...

spartan5127 wrote...

FS3D wrote...

Zine2 wrote...

Riion wrote...

-Philosophy Mode, ACTIVATE-
It is only a physical reality to you because you perceive it as so... take away your senses, and your reality ceases to exist...

What you're describing is called Solipsism, and that is a completely and utterly useless perspective to apply in a world wherein there are multiple actors beyond your control. If you act as though only your mind exists and nothing else is real, you would simply be described as someone with a mental disorder - which again puts you in the "clinically insane" category.

We live in a real world. We should treat the game as a "real" world with a setting and other actors. Deal with it.

Otherwise, resorting to this argument is a tacit admission that the Indoctrination Theory is not only plausible, but it is the correct ending. That it really was all a dream in Shepard's head, because the only thing that matters is what's in your head and not "reality". 

Yup... This is one of those +1 posts ;-)

Solipsism renders any conversation about what's going on around you completely useless.

Solipsism is awesome.  It's one of those wacky views that is internally consistant (i.e. you can't prove to me that I am not the only agent), which is facinating.

It may be fascinating if you like that sort of thing... But it's still useless when trying to make discoveries about the world or when trying to work within the confines of reality itself.

Yes, but WHICH reality? 8D 

[JShepppp]

sistersafetypin wrote...

Zine2 wrote...

Taxonomy wrote...

The Reapers are entirely aware that they're killing people. But they're not just killing people; they're creating an "archive" of sorts from them.

Factually wrong. Stop imagining things that never actually happened in the game.

We see exactly what happens when you are "harvested". They dump nano-machines on you and turn you into paste. The paste is then used to build identical crablike machines. 

Nothing that resembles life or the previous civilization remains.

Not to mention that they do not even harvest everyone. Sometimes they just dump a few nukes and kill everyone.

Hence, there is no "archive". There is not even a "memorial". The process can be only factually described as the Reapers simply eating people. Again, we are talking about REALITIES, not the stupid and pointless connections that you can come up with in your head.

It is like someone killing and eating a chicken, and then claiming you saved the chicken because it is now part of you forever. Some people may claim that this is a "deep" and "clever" interpretation, but they're just lying to themselves. Because that "interpretation" relies PURELY on making imaginary connections in your head. It has ZERO basis in actual fact.

I completely agree with this and your original post OP. Logical errors made in the ending are numerous

Thank you for bolding that statement. Therein lies the flaw in the OP's argument, IMO - about the chickens. Lol. Imagine you kill a chicken but keep a tiny sliver of its DNA for posterity and then say you've saved the chickens while stopping them from stopping new species to evolve. 

Saving = keeping them alive is subjective.
Saving = keeping their DNA is subjective. 

There are no "facts" when the word "saving" is used. 

[Zany Jedi]

You speak as if materialism is factual. Hylemorphism and idealism are just as acceptable view points (I myself am materialist). So no, truth does not have to be "physical".

[Riion]

Zany Jedi wrote...

You speak as if materialism is factual. Hylemorphism and idealism are just as acceptable view points (I myself am materialist). So no, truth does not have to be "physical".

And here I thought Analytical philosophers were a dying breed.  (The emote makes it not an insult automatically, as per rules of internet communication)

Modifié par Riion, 16 avril 2012 - 04:45 .