270 réponses à ce sujet

[Taxonomy]

Zine2 wrote...

Taxonomy wrote...

The Reapers are entirely aware that they're killing people. But they're not just killing people; they're creating an "archive" of sorts from them.

Factually wrong. Stop imagining things that never actually happened in the game.

We see exactly what happens when you are "harvested". They dump nano-machines on you and turn you into paste. The paste is then used to build identical crablike machines. 

Nothing that resembles life or the previous civilization remains.

Not to mention that they do not even harvest everyone. Sometimes they just dump a few nukes and kill everyone.

Hence, there is no "archive". There is not even a "memorial". The process can be only factually described as the Reapers simply eating people. Again, we are talking about REALITIES, not the stupid and pointless connections that you can come up with in your head.

It is like someone killing and eating a chicken, and then claiming you saved the chicken because it is now part of you forever. Some people may claim that this is a "deep" and "clever" interpretation, but they're just lying to themselves. Because that "interpretation" relies PURELY on making imaginary connections in your head. It has ZERO basis in actual fact.

Now, it's certainly possible that nothing whatsoever is preserved in the nano-liquification process; humans function as nothing more than raw materials. But it's also certainly possible that they're preserving something or other - genetic tendancies, memories, consciousness even. We don't know. We do know that the Reapers SAY they're making an archive. You're certainly choose to disbelieve them.

But my point stands. The Reapers state that the alternative to having a Reaper floating around made from your civilization is to have nothing left of your civilization. That's a twisted but plausible underpinning for their use of the word "salvation."

Thus, the Reapers are not necessarily lying and/or insane.

[Zine2]

JShepppp wrote...

Thank you for bolding that statement. Therein lies the flaw in the OP's argument, IMO - about the chickens. Lol. Imagine you kill a chicken but keep a tiny sliver of its DNA for posterity and then say you've saved the chickens while stopping them from stopping new species to evolve.

Saving = keeping them alive is subjective.
Saving = keeping their DNA is subjective.

There are no "facts" when the word "saving" is used.

Again, this only shows gross levels of retardation in reasoning.

Extracting the DNA from the chicken does not require eating or killing the chicken at all. Therefore, if the Reaper's definition of "saving" is to "preserve their DNA" (which is again nothing more than utterly asinine semantic wiggling), they are morons because they don't have to destroy the chicken to get its DNA. 

Moreover, I highlighted a portion of your thread to demonstrate that for your "interpretation" to be true, there is actually a DIFFERENT and REAL motive for destroying the chicken - which is that they want the chickens to stop evolving. Which means that when the Reapers say "We are your salvation through your destruction", they are lying.

You are not actually "saving" the chicken. You want it to stop evolving. That is the REAL reason why you destroyed the chicken, and saying you are "saving" it is nothing more than pompous self-justifications on the same level as Hitler announcing it was justifiable to kill the Jews because they were "vermin".

So again: The Reapers are lying, or they are clinically insane. Keep on proving me right with your blatant lies disguised as opinions.

Modifié par Zine2, 16 avril 2012 - 04:54 .

[Zine2]

Taxonomy wrote...

Now, it's certainly possible that nothing whatsoever is preserved in the nano-liquification process; humans function as nothing more than raw materials. But it's also certainly possible that they're preserving something or other - genetic tendancies, memories, consciousness even. We don't know.

No, we do know. We saw what happens to Kelly Chambers. Imagining the Reapers sent her to a "better place" does not change reality.

When the Reapers take you, they kill you. That's why they don't mind simply nuking some of us. This is reality.

[JShepppp]

Zine2 wrote...

JShepppp wrote...

Nobody said accepting the Reapers' operate with different normative perspectives means you have to agree with them. If they did it's their opinion and there's nothing wrong with that.

Some opinions are, in fact, factually wrong. And should not be given the honor of being called an "opinion". They should simply be called lies.

The Reapers believe they're ascending and we're not given enough evidence to go either way other than that people don't want to be ascended.

 
Wrong. We have evidence. There is no light at the end of the tunnel. When you are "ascended", you are turned into nano paste and made part of a giant crab.

Again, you have to intentionally delude and lie to people in order to justify "ascension"; when it is in fact simply murder. We get a first-hand view of the process with Kelly Chambers if you fail to rescue her. There is no "Ifs" or "Buts" about it.

You're applying your own moral code to everything and calling people who disagree with it as stupid.

No, I am saying that I am factually correct, and that you are lying by continually pretending it's a "moral" stand. Killing is killing. Killing is not saving. An apple is not an orange.

You can pretend it didn't happen. You can pretend it's ascension. That only makes you a liar. Again, opinions that are based on falsehoods are not opinons, they are simply LIES.

You didn't address the part about Overlord/EDI/Geth comments about the conciousness and uploading to the consciousness which if taken to be true indicate that the Reapers save minds but not bodies. Then the whole thing becomes subjective again. 

I'm not pretending it's ascension. 

Look, dude, I've clashed heads with you over the forums a lot and you've been a bit of a **** about your reasonings. I'm very open minded about things and respect your opinion - because that's what it is, an opinion.

You are confusing positive and normative statements. I'm giving you the dignity of an opinion even though you're wrong to mix the two (which by your admission would mean I would say your opinion is worthless).

I'm still confused as to how me saying accepting the Reapers' different normative stances does not mean you have to agree with them = you saying some opinions don't deserve to be respected and are lies. 

Normative statements cannot be false. Period. 

"The Reapers 'should' reap" = normative. 

Anyways, I love how you think anyone who doesn't agree with you is stupid, a liar, a combination, or just not worthy of the dignity or respect of having an opinion. If this is the nature of BSN and nobody can speak without getting crude comments for it then we are indeed worthy of any indifference Bioware gives us.

Being blunt is fine but like I said I worry that you become too narrow-minded in an effort to steer the conversation towards your views. But you pride yourself in being blunt because it can indeed cut to the chase and say what you want to say, which has been both implicitly and explicitly clear with this thread and the way you treat others. 

Have fun with your post and Hitler-style eradication of free thought. You can message me if you want to continue our conversation (I'm sure you can say more there without being censored) but I doubt you will want to come to an agreement anyways. 

I hope you eat some ice cream to cool down over the furor you have over the game lol. Life moves on.

Cheers. Well, at least I hope cheerfulness gets around. 

[JShepppp]

Zine2 wrote...

JShepppp wrote...

Thank you for bolding that statement. Therein lies the flaw in the OP's argument, IMO - about the chickens. Lol. Imagine you kill a chicken but keep a tiny sliver of its DNA for posterity and then say you've saved the chickens while stopping them from stopping new species to evolve.

Saving = keeping them alive is subjective.
Saving = keeping their DNA is subjective.

There are no "facts" when the word "saving" is used.

Again, this only shows gross levels of retardation in reasoning.

Extracting the DNA from the chicken does not require eating or killing the chicken at all. Therefore, if the Reaper's definition of "saving" is to "preserve their DNA" (which is again nothing more than utterly asinine semantic wiggling), they are morons because they don't have to destroy the chicken to get its DNA. 

Moreover, I highlighted a portion of your thread to demonstrate that for your "interpretation" to be true, there is actually a DIFFERENT and REAL motive for destroying the chicken - which is that they want the chickens to stop evolving. Which means that when the Reapers say "We are your salvation through your destruction", they are lying.

You are not actually "saving" the chicken. You want it to stop evolving. That is the REAL reason why you destroyed the chicken, and saying you are "saving" it is nothing more than pompous self-justifications on the same level as Hitler announcing it was justifiable to kill the Jews because they were "vermin".

So again: The Reapers are lying, or they are clinically insane. Keep on proving me right with your blatant lies disguised as opinions.

I was using the leaked script where the Catalyst says they harvest civilizations partly to allow for new ones to develop unimpeded. the Protheans probably would have enslaved or eradicated us with their religious view of natural selection and genoicde and due to evolving earlier we wouldn't have had a chance. The Reapers could have arguably saved us in that situation though facing the Reapers is indeed a similar fate. 

The chicken analogy goes only so far lol. 

[mmmpollo]

Zine2 wrote...

Some opinions are, in fact, factually wrong. And should not be given the honor of being called an "opinion". They should simply be called lies.

Opinions are not factually wrong. A false statement should mot be called an opinion because it is not subjective. Basically your statement "some opinions are, in fact, factually wrong" is just incorrect. 

You are being literal with your idea of saving. The reapers are not.  They dont believe they are literally saving anybody. If you say that all reapers are identical cuttlefish machines, I think the ME2 human reaper is an indication that at least some part of the reaper maintains resemblance to the species it originates from, no matter how identical they look on the outside or in the final stages. 

Modifié par mmmpollo, 16 avril 2012 - 04:58 .

[Zine2]

JShepppp wrote...

You didn't address the part about Overlord/EDI/Geth comments about the conciousness and uploading to the consciousness which if taken to be true indicate that the Reapers save minds but not bodies. Then the whole thing becomes subjective again. 

Except we do actually see how a consciousness upload happens: When Shep goes into the Geth network.

And that again does not involve screaming as you're torn to pieces by nano machines - Which is what the Reapers do to Kelly Chambers.

Again, stop with the stupid lies because you have to invent imaginary facts. Ascension is killing. It is not consciousness upload.

You also AGAIN fail to address how the Reapers simply nuke people. Which is again simply "killing", unless you can somehow explain how getting nuked "ascends" you.

That you cannot address these simple facts and then spout useless opinions (lies) about things that never actually happened simply demonstrates how utterly delusional your arguments are.

Modifié par Zine2, 16 avril 2012 - 04:59 .

[Zine2]

JShepppp wrote...

I was using the leaked script where the Catalyst says they harvest civilizations partly to allow for new ones to develop unimpeded.

That's not the ending we got. You have to base it on the ending as-is, not on "What could have been" or "What might have been"; at least until the "clarifications".

[Taxonomy]

Zine2 wrote...

Taxonomy wrote...

Now, it's certainly possible that nothing whatsoever is preserved in the nano-liquification process; humans function as nothing more than raw materials. But it's also certainly possible that they're preserving something or other - genetic tendancies, memories, consciousness even. We don't know.

No, we do know. We saw what happens to Kelly Chambers. Imagining the Reapers sent her to a "better place" does not change reality.

When the Reapers take you, they kill you. That's why they don't mind simply nuking some of us. This is reality.

You're missing two points.

Firstly the Reapers are referring to civilizations, not individuals, when they refer to "salvation." Quibbling over the specific fate of a processed individual is missing the point.
Secondly, the Reapers state that the alternative to the processing of a civilization is the utter destruction of that civilization. They may be wrong - the evidence from the Quarian/Geth storyline strongly suggests that they are (one of my strongest problems with the ending is that the game itself cuts so strongly against it).

Nonetheless, you are simply incorrect to assert that the Reapers are necessarily lying or insane. The fact that you do not like their belief system does not mean that that belief system is incoherent and/or duplicitous.

[Zine2]

mmmpollo wrote...

Opinions are not factually wrong.

They can be. That's when you should stop calling them opinions and call them lies instead.

Opinion that is actually a lie: Reapers "ascend" people when they kill them. Factually false. Nuking someone does not leave anything behind to be "saved" under ANY definition.

Opinion that is actually a lie: Reapers "save" people by saving their DNA. Factually false. You can get someone's DNA without killing them. You must therefore have a different and ulterior motive for killing the person - ergo you are lying that the act of destruction goes hand in hand with salvation.

Now are you done with pointless semantic wiggling?

[joiushdfoubsndpovn]

Ok OP, you clearly went to frehsmen philosophy 101, and you are clearly trying to trip epople up with names and phrases that you THINK will make you seem right. But your very premise is wrong. Killing another being is NOT factually wrong. Plain and simple, it depends on perspective. I have many real world examples where murder is seen in a positive light, and just because YOU think it is a FACT of the universe that murdering is wrong, that does not make it so.

In fact, i would say you are suffering from ethnocentrism, go look it up, as you no doubt have tried to make so many others do.

[JShepppp]

Zine2 wrote...

JShepppp wrote...

You didn't address the part about Overlord/EDI/Geth comments about the conciousness and uploading to the consciousness which if taken to be true indicate that the Reapers save minds but not bodies. Then the whole thing becomes subjective again. 

Except we do actually see how a consciousness upload happens: When Shep goes into the Geth network.

And that again does not involve screaming as you're torn to pieces by nano machines - Which is what the Reapers do to Kelly Chambers.

Again, stop with the stupid lies because you have to invent imaginary facts. Ascension is killing. It is not consciousness upload.

You also AGAIN fail to address how the Reapers simply nuke people. Which is again simply "killing", unless you can somehow explain how getting nuked "ascends" you.

That you cannot address these simple facts and then spout useless opinions (lies) about things that never actually happened simply demonstrates how utterly delusional your arguments are.

EDI/Legion say Reapers DO upload human minds. Compare this with Kelly screaming. Then we get horrible physical pain with mental upload. 

Reapers simply nuke people because they're not ascending everyone. I thought that was evident...

Modifié par JShepppp, 16 avril 2012 - 05:21 .

[Zine2]

Taxonomy wrote...

Firstly the Reapers are referring to civilizations, not individuals, when they refer to "salvation." Quibbling over the specific fate of a processed individual is missing the point.

Wrong. Thank you for playing.

Civilization by definition means not only individual lives, but also the culture, arts, and beliefs of an entire race.

The Reapers are not saving the Mona Lisa. They are not preserving our monuments. They show ZERO care for our culture or civilization. This is demonstrable fact unless you ignore that big burning red spot on Palaven.

Secondly, the Reapers state that the alternative to the processing of a civilization is the utter destruction of that civilization. They may be wrong - the evidence from the Quarian/Geth storyline strongly suggests that they are (one of my strongest problems with the ending is that the game itself cuts so strongly against it).

Unknown threat destroys civilization  - Apple.

Reapers destroys civilization - Apple.

An apple is an apple. This only shows the Reapers are too stupid to realize that all they're doing is "If someone else is going to kill them, I will kill them instead!"

Hence all you're doing is to prove that the "Yo Dawg" wallpaper is absolutely correct

Nonetheless, you are simply incorrect to assert that the Reapers are necessarily lying or insane. The fact that you do not like their belief system does not mean that that belief system is incoherent and/or duplicitous.

On the contrary, I am completely correct. All evidence - which you continously ignore - supports this assessment.

Modifié par Zine2, 16 avril 2012 - 05:10 .

[JShepppp]

Zine2 wrote...

JShepppp wrote...

I was using the leaked script where the Catalyst says they harvest civilizations partly to allow for new ones to develop unimpeded.

That's not the ending we got. You have to base it on the ending as-is, not on "What could have been" or "What might have been"; at least until the "clarifications".

Yup, I know. I know you read my Catalyst thread because you did your usual Hitler style opinion there. There you see my response to that too. I just assume you read the entire post before you disagreed with it and then assumed that you remembered it.

The leaked script was close enough to the end result that I thought I was justified in using it. Read it for yourself. If it's too different then disagree with me. 

Modifié par JShepppp, 16 avril 2012 - 05:20 .

[Zine2]

JShepppp wrote...
EDI/Legion say Reapers DO upload human minds. Compare this with Kelly screaming. Then we get horrible physical pain with mental upload. 

Script check said they "process humans". They did not say "upload" human minds.

Try again.

Also, Shep's upload did not involve screaming, probably because he wasn't being chopped to little pieces.

Modifié par Zine2, 16 avril 2012 - 05:16 .

[Zine2]

joiushdfoubsndpovn wrote...

Ok OP, you clearly went to frehsmen philosophy 101, and you are clearly trying to trip epople up with names and phrases that you THINK will make you seem right. But your very premise is wrong. Killing another being is NOT factually wrong. Plain and simple, it depends on perspective. I have many real world examples where murder is seen in a positive light, and just because YOU think it is a FACT of the universe that murdering is wrong, that does not make it so.

In fact, i would say you are suffering from ethnocentrism, go look it up, as you no doubt have tried to make so many others do.

You are, again, falsely bringing up the moral relativism argument.

I am not saying killing is wrong.

I am saying that the Reapers STATED GOAL is "We are you salvation through destruction"

Saving is not synonymous with killing. An Apple is not an Orange.

It is therefore NOT consistent even with itself; and hence any attempt to play the moral relativism argument - including yours - is factually wrong.

[mmmpollo]

You are really being overly literal with the catalyst/reaper statements. When he said "we are YOUR salvation through destruction", "your" is not an individual, it is the species as a collective. Yes, nuking kills people, as does liquifying them. But killing and saving in the reapers' sense aren't mutually exclusive.

Honestly dude, are you really arguing this cause you believe the reapers are really telling us they are saving our LIVES by killing us are you arguing to argue? Because this post seems really silly...

[JShepppp]

Zine2 wrote...

JShepppp wrote...
EDI/Legion say Reapers DO upload human minds. Compare this with Kelly screaming. Then we get horrible physical pain with mental upload. 

Script check said they "process humans". They did not say "upload" human minds.

Try again.

Also, Shep's upload did not involve screaming, probably because he wasn't being chopped to little pieces.

lol I thought they said they were composed of thousands of minds or something and that EDI says all the processed minds will combine to form a Reaper identity

And I didn't have a problem with Shep not screaming.

Edit: As the guy below said, due to your single-mindedness/Hitler-ness with respect to free thought, feel free to claim victory in my absence as well.  Now if you were more open-minded/Socrates-like I would be game. 

Modifié par JShepppp, 16 avril 2012 - 05:22 .

[Taxonomy]

Zine2 wrote...

Taxonomy wrote...

Firstly the Reapers are referring to civilizations, not individuals, when they refer to "salvation." Quibbling over the specific fate of a processed individual is missing the point.

Wrong. Thank you for playing.

Civilization by definition means not only individual lives, but also the culture, arts, and beliefs of an entire race.

The Reapers are not saving the Mona Lisa. They are not preserving our monuments. They show ZERO care for our culture or civilization. This is demonstrable fact unless you ignore that big burning red spot on Palaven.

I can see you pulled out the dictionary for that one. Unfortunately, "civilization" is but one of many applicable words here. You could also go with "species" among other things.

The point is that Reapers are interested in collectives, not individuals. What are they interested in preserving from those collectives? Nothing more than raw materials? Fine. They're still preserving something as opposed to nothing.

There's no point throwing ad hominems at me. The point stands - as stated, the Reapers have an internally consistent belief structure that requires neither insanity nor duplicity. You just don't like it, so you're tying yourself into pretzels trying to say that ain't so.

Since you do not appear to be interested in entertaining other perspectives on this issue, however, I will bid you goodnight. Feel free to claim victory by attrition in my absence.

[joiushdfoubsndpovn]

On the contrary, I am completely correct. All evidence - which you continously ignore - supports this assessment.

This.  You've proven yourself to be a troll or a mentally unstable human being with the inability to form new thought processes that do not organically  come to your mind.  An intelligent human being who wants to learn and grow wiser would never say "i'm completely correct".  You are not, and everyone everywhere knows that you can't be completely right, but you will stay in your little bubble and think you are correct and not give the light of day to any opposing view points.

Which only proves the point that you clearly can't accept the idea that the reaps think they are helping and saving the whole of organics by killing them in a fashion that YOU think is not conducive to your own view point.  Clearly you need to open your world view just a little and not be so closed minded, ESPECIALLY in thinking you are completely right.  Only children think like that.  Please grow up a little and stop making horribly immature assertions with the fascade of philosophically deep words.

[ZiegenkonigIII]

JShepppp wrote...

Zine2 wrote...

JShepppp wrote...

I was using the leaked script where the Catalyst says they harvest civilizations partly to allow for new ones to develop unimpeded.

That's not the ending we got. You have to base it on the ending as-is, not on "What could have been" or "What might have been"; at least until the "clarifications".

Yup, I know. I know you read my Catalyst thread because you did your usual Hitler style opinion there. There you see my response to that too. I just assume you read the entire post before you disagreed with it and then assumed that you remembered it.

The leaked script was close enough to the end result that I thought I was justified in using it. Read it for yourself. If it's too different then disagree with me. 

lol you remind me of Hitler and someone trying to say "but you can be wrong about jews!" and you're like "that's your opinion."

I'm on neither side in this thing, but comparing him to Hitler and laughing at him every post really isn't helping your case.  I'm all for a simple comparison to get a point across, but doing it every post is a bit obsessive.

[Zine2]

mmmpollo wrote...

You are really being overly literal with the catalyst/reaper statements. When he said "we are YOUR salvation through destruction", "your" is not an individual, it is the species as a collective. Yes, nuking kills people, as does liquifying them. But killing and saving in the reapers' sense aren't mutually exclusive.

Attempting to dismiss the argument as "overly literal" while completely failing to address the facts only further demonstrates the levels of denial and willful ignorance one must subject oneself to in order to justify the ending.

Again, until you actually swallow your pride and actually look at it from a factual level, you will never see why 92% of the polled folks hated the ending.

Honestly dude, are you really arguing this cause you believe the reapers are really telling us they are saving our LIVES by killing us are you arguing to argue? Because this post seems really silly...

I'm saying that anyone who uses that argument is either clinically insane or lying. Go ahead and try to prove me wrong with actual facts, because so far all I'm seeing is opinions about things that are literally never shown (i.e. Human minds are stored in a Reaper where they enjoy pretty flowers).

[JShepppp]

ZiegenkonigIII wrote...

JShepppp wrote...

Zine2 wrote...

JShepppp wrote...

I was using the leaked script where the Catalyst says they harvest civilizations partly to allow for new ones to develop unimpeded.

That's not the ending we got. You have to base it on the ending as-is, not on "What could have been" or "What might have been"; at least until the "clarifications".

Yup, I know. I know you read my Catalyst thread because you did your usual Hitler style opinion there. There you see my response to that too. I just assume you read the entire post before you disagreed with it and then assumed that you remembered it.

The leaked script was close enough to the end result that I thought I was justified in using it. Read it for yourself. If it's too different then disagree with me. 

lol you remind me of Hitler and someone trying to say "but you can be wrong about jews!" and you're like "that's your opinion."

I'm on neither side in this thing, but comparing him to Hitler and laughing at him every post really isn't helping your case.  I'm all for a simple comparison to get a point across, but doing it every post is a bit obsessive.

I'm ashamed to admit my nerd rage got the better of me, something I try not to do on these forums. I am editing to remove offensive comments. But this post of yours can serve as a testament to my mistake which I accept as a scar in my errors of judgement.

I try to be civil, I really do. But it irks me when others are not open-minded, and I realize that this is a hypocrisy for me to be upset about it in a sense.

Modifié par JShepppp, 16 avril 2012 - 05:24 .

[HiddenKING]

Zine2 wrote...

JShepppp wrote...
EDI/Legion say Reapers DO upload human minds. Compare this with Kelly screaming. Then we get horrible physical pain with mental upload. 

Script check said they "process humans". They did not say "upload" human minds.

Try again.

Also, Shep's upload did not involve screaming, probably because he wasn't being chopped to little pieces.

Transcended flesh. Billions of organic minds, uploaded and conjoined within immortal machine bodies. "Each a nation."

[joiushdfoubsndpovn]

Zine2 wrote...

joiushdfoubsndpovn wrote...

Ok OP, you clearly went to frehsmen philosophy 101, and you are clearly trying to trip epople up with names and phrases that you THINK will make you seem right. But your very premise is wrong. Killing another being is NOT factually wrong. Plain and simple, it depends on perspective. I have many real world examples where murder is seen in a positive light, and just because YOU think it is a FACT of the universe that murdering is wrong, that does not make it so.

In fact, i would say you are suffering from ethnocentrism, go look it up, as you no doubt have tried to make so many others do.

You are, again, falsely bringing up the moral relativism argument.

I am not saying killing is wrong.

I am saying that the Reapers STATED GOAL is "We are you salvation through destruction"

Saving is not synonymous with killing. An Apple is not an Orange.

It is therefore NOT consistent even with itself; and hence any attempt to play the moral relativism argument - including yours - is factually wrong.

Simple experience shows you are talking out your butt again.  If I break my leg, and it starts to fester, and am about to die, by removing my leg, so far up i'm even taking off perfectly healthy tissue and flesh, i am saving the whole of the body by removing a postion of it, and EVERYONE i know of would agree with this.  This analogy works just as well with The reapers thinking they can take out a portion so save the whole.

Modifié par joiushdfoubsndpovn, 16 avril 2012 - 05:26 .