5087 réponses à ce sujet

[Controller_B]

There's alot of places to attack the ending from. Basic storytelling (plotholes), execution (no boss fight, war assets/game choices mattering in a trivial way, an expository rather than interactive ending), and theme (like this thread).

Pointing out the thematic incoherence is important to make Casey and Mac better writers going forward. But I don't know if they'll revisit these things for the Mass Effect 3 extended cut. As much as the artistic integrity is BS, I do think that's asking a lot of a writer.

[Jesusland]

So why, then, at the very end of a series that has clearly been about unity and co-existence, would they end it with the point that different forms of life simply cannot co-exist unless their diversity is totally stripped away?

Easy, because the writers at Bioware were making it all up as they went along.  They pulled it right out of their @ss.  You don't really think they actually had anything to say, did you?

[Mesmurae]

All of you who are complaining about the ending just need to shut up. How dare you be dissatisfied with a product you paid for. How dare you point out what BioWare advertised the product would be. They're artists, they don't have to answer questions or keep their promises!

Just shut up and respect their artistic integrity!

[zarnk567]

Mesmurae wrote...

All of you who are complaining about the ending just need to shut up. How dare you be dissatisfied with a product you paid for. How dare you point out what BioWare advertised the product would be. They're artists, they don't have to answer questions or keep their promises!

Just shut up and respect their artistic integrity!

I see what you did thar. 

Modifié par zarnk567, 16 avril 2012 - 07:03 .

[CrutchCricket]

lol oh man now I'm just thinking how much my old philosophy prof would tear into them. Maybe this is a valid direction for Retake? Bring forth academic criticism?

[Sc2mashimaro]

Controller_B wrote...

There's alot of places to attack the ending from. Basic storytelling (plotholes), execution (no boss fight, war assets/game choices mattering in a trivial way, an expository rather than interactive ending), and theme (like this thread).

Pointing out the thematic incoherence is important to make Casey and Mac better writers going forward. But I don't know if they'll revisit these things for the Mass Effect 3 extended cut. As much as the artistic integrity is BS, I do think that's asking a lot of a writer.

I disagree. I think that "clarifying" revisions can include changes that make the rhetorical and thematic intentions of the piece clearer. In other words, if this thematic shift was not their intention or they meant to give it different context, knowing that we did not see it the way they thought it would come across gives them useful criticism for how they might alter the ending to flow better from the rest of the story.

Modifié par Sc2mashimaro, 16 avril 2012 - 07:18 .

[Ashilana]

AdmLancel wrote...

I like it when the crazy notions I come up with are independently verified by college professors.

It is comforting. 

[Deadstoned]

Cool Professor.

[Kuari999]

I like this guy... I wish him and a few other nerdy professors would get together to write a letter to BioWare. I can't imagine many of those involved with literature who have played the games wouldn't say many of the same things.

[Baa Baa]

Stuff like this makes me totally dumbfounded about how BioWare won't admit what they did wrong and try to even fix it. They're not acting like adults by not admitting their mistake.

[recentio]

Made Nightwing wrote...

So, my lit professor and I are nerds. I throw in 'but the prize' references on my essays about Odysseus and Achilles, he throws in Firefly references in his lectures, we get on great. Now, I've previously mentioned that he disliked the endings, but today he gave me a full rundown on what exactly he found displeasing about the endgame:

"I don't get it. You get a choice between control. I just shot The Illusive Man five minutes ago because I said that we weren't ready for that power. Why on Earth isn't there an option to express how faulty that choice is? And then Destroy? Dammit, I just saved the geth and quarians, they're working together as a re-united race. Why is genocide an option? WHY? And then Synthesis just completely mistakes everything about evolution. There is no apex of evolution, we continue to adapt and move forward or we die. Aside from that, I'm forcing a choice on the entire galaxy, without the option to tell the damn thing to go to hell! All three endings were so entirely removed from the themes of the whole series that they were completely unrecognisable! It's like Casey had just finished playing Deus Ex and Mac had just watcched teh season finale of BSG."

"If I'm going to speak about 'artistic integrity', I will be compelled to point out that the ending was in no way the artistic vision of the team. BW has already stated that the ending was thought up between Casey and Mac, without any part of the peer review process being consulted. It was not a product of the team, but individuals. Aside from that, saying that artistic integrity forbids them from changing the ending is ridiculous. Many novelists have re-written entire works because of negative feedback on them. Charles Dickens wrote Oliver Twist in chapters, publishing each one as they went, and each chapter would be based on the feedback that he got for that chapter. Conan Doyle brought Holmes back from the dead. Those are just wo examples, there are many more. BW broke their own artistic integrity when they allowed EA to set their deadline. Now there are many things that you can say about ME1, but you can never say that it was rushed. The graphics were glitchy, sure, but the characters and dialogue were finely polished."

"In conclusion, I must say again that all the endings were thematically revolting. It is absolutely critical in the name of good writing that the ending of a story must match the journey. Mass Effect has never been a story about the disparity between synthetics and organics. As a matter of fact, it has been quite the obvious. For three games, BW has hinted and pointed out that life could be so much more greater and mysterious than the organic perception. It's driven the point home, time and time again, that unity is possible. So why, then, at the very end of a series that has clearly been about unity and co-existence, would they end it with the point that different forms of life simply cannot co-exist unless their diversity is totally stripped away? It makes no sense. Furthermore, it is emotionally crushing that all this hope of co-existence that has been built up from the quarian-geth storyline  (Geth Prime:...and then we will help you rebuild your world.) is suddenly yanked away at the last second. Good day."

Dr. C. Dray.

Are you sure that this seasoned professional with a PhD in literary analysis isn't just too stupid to understand the magnificence of ME3's ending? I mean, clearly disliking the ending is the domain of idiot plebians while an "intelligent" person will see the grorious symbolic brilliance therein.

[Jvolikas]

OP's professor is right on the money and should teach at my school!

[Sc2mashimaro]

CrutchCricket wrote...

lol oh man now I'm just thinking how much my old philosophy prof would tear into them. Maybe this is a valid direction for Retake? Bring forth academic criticism?

Well, I would actually propose that the existence of academic criticism points to the validity of video games as an art form and rhetorical format worthy of criticism. Academic criticism may certainly be used in any argument over the quality or effectiveness of the ending and there is no reason to exclude it from a petition to revise an artistic work. One should always use the tools of persuasion one has and academic criticism is certainly a powerful tool to both persuade and offer constructive feedback.

[Sc2mashimaro]

Baa Baa wrote...

Stuff like this makes me totally dumbfounded about how BioWare won't admit what they did wrong and try to even fix it. They're not acting like adults by not admitting their mistake.

From a PR perspective, you are totally right. The smartest thing Bioware could do business-wise and PR wise is to come straight out and say "hey, sorry, we didn't quite get it right, let us fix it." - but Bioware is not doing that because PR and business (and, by extension, listening to customer feedback) is not their only value. They also view their game as a creative and artistic work and they want to balance that value with their corporate values and their customer opinion values. This is a difficult thing to do and even harder to communicate - and they have not done a good job communicating about it (otherwise you and I wouldn't have this conversation at all).

So, Bioware didn't do anything "wrong" and they haven't violated any values that they feel that they should apologize for breaking (thus, no apology). They simply did not construct an effective narrative to deliver the emotional and storytelling experience they were trying to create. They have, essentially, owned up to that fact and are working on (free) content that attempts to fix that problem. Again, they haven't communicated this as well as they could have, but if you piece together the disparate parts of their message from across the board that is the message they are clearly trying (and often failing) to convey.

[Mnementh2230]

When a college lit. professor and tens of thousands of angry fans all call your ending sh*te, maybe it's time to concede that the ending is, in fact, sh*te, and it's time to re-write.

Seriously.  They've ruined an entire franchise for the vast majority of their dedicated fan-base.

Modifié par Mnementh2230, 16 avril 2012 - 07:35 .

[tiita]

well said..

[BoricuaHLM]

Your professor is such a badass, if only mine were like that..

[Demon King Oda]

i love this professor and this college. its nice to see someone with a position such as his saying the same thing i do.

[pistolols]

Made Nightwing wrote...


"I don't get it. You get a choice between control. I just shot The Illusive Man five minutes ago because I said that we weren't ready for that power. Why on Earth isn't there an option to express how faulty that choice is?

Dr. C. Dray.

/facepalm

no offense, but your professor is retarded if he couldn't grasp the contrast between illusive's man's desire for control out of a lust for power compared with, for instance, Edi's control of the dangerous robot Eva.. which was out of necessity.. arguably the same situation shepard faces with the reapers.  And then just in general with how big of a theme 'control' itself is throughout Mass Effect... the choice fits perfectly thematically.

Seriously, i would not sign up for any more of this guys' classes if i were you.

[CronoDragoon]

pistolols wrote...

Made Nightwing wrote...


"I don't get it. You get a choice between control. I just shot The Illusive Man five minutes ago because I said that we weren't ready for that power. Why on Earth isn't there an option to express how faulty that choice is?

Dr. C. Dray.

/facepalm

no offense, but your professor is retarded if he couldn't grasp the contrast between illusive's man's desire for control out of a lust for power compared with, for instance, Edi's control of the dangerous robot Eva.. which was out of necessity.. arguably the same situation shepard faces with the reapers.  And then just in general with how big of a theme 'control' itself is throughout Mass Effect... the choice fits perfectly thematically.

Seriously, i would not sign up for any more of this guys' classes if i were you.

"We're not ready." Shepard explaining why controlling is bad.
"So the Illusive Man was right."  - Shepard to the Catalyst.

[pistolols]

CronoDragoon wrote...

pistolols wrote...

Made Nightwing wrote...


"I don't get it. You get a choice between control. I just shot The Illusive Man five minutes ago because I said that we weren't ready for that power. Why on Earth isn't there an option to express how faulty that choice is?

Dr. C. Dray.

/facepalm

no offense, but your professor is retarded if he couldn't grasp the contrast between illusive's man's desire for control out of a lust for power compared with, for instance, Edi's control of the dangerous robot Eva.. which was out of necessity.. arguably the same situation shepard faces with the reapers.  And then just in general with how big of a theme 'control' itself is throughout Mass Effect... the choice fits perfectly thematically.

Seriously, i would not sign up for any more of this guys' classes if i were you.

"We're not ready." Shepard explaining why controlling is bad.
"So the Illusive Man was right."  - Shepard to the Catalyst.

"so the illusive man was right" (about the possibility to control them)

-don't take shepard;s statment out of context.  he was not saying "derp illusive man was right about everything!"  No...

Modifié par pistolols, 16 avril 2012 - 10:25 .

[shnellegaming]

It is absolutely critical in the name of good writing that the ending of a story must match the journey.

Well said.

[CronoDragoon]

pistolols wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

pistolols wrote...

Made Nightwing wrote...


"I don't get it. You get a choice between control. I just shot The Illusive Man five minutes ago because I said that we weren't ready for that power. Why on Earth isn't there an option to express how faulty that choice is?

Dr. C. Dray.

/facepalm

no offense, but your professor is retarded if he couldn't grasp the contrast between illusive's man's desire for control out of a lust for power compared with, for instance, Edi's control of the dangerous robot Eva.. which was out of necessity.. arguably the same situation shepard faces with the reapers.  And then just in general with how big of a theme 'control' itself is throughout Mass Effect... the choice fits perfectly thematically.

Seriously, i would not sign up for any more of this guys' classes if i were you.

"We're not ready." Shepard explaining why controlling is bad.
"So the Illusive Man was right."  - Shepard to the Catalyst.

"so the illusive man was right" (about the possibility to control them)

-don't take shepard;s statment out of context.  he was not saying "derp illusive man was right about everything!"  No...

Now read what you quoted originally again. Hopefully you will see why the choice is strange.