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"All Were Thematically Revolting". My Lit Professor's take on the Endings. (UPDATED)


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#2651
KitaSaturnyne

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@Mani Mani

I LOVE Eternal Darkness. The sanity effects were awesome. Walking into a room I've been into a bunch of times, only to find myself on the ceiling, was unnerving and inventive. Between this and earlier talk of Beyond Good & Evil, you're making my Game Cube look awful sexy right now.

It's a main reason that IT doesn't work for me. Mass Effect isn't a narrative that sets itself up to "indoctrinate" the player on any level. It's too straightforward for that, especially ME3.

@CulturalGeekGirl

If doing something stands the smallest chance of making you happy, it's worth doing.

Hrm, top of the page again. I'd dance, but I'm a Genesis fan. So I can't.

Modifié par KitaSaturnyne, 26 mai 2012 - 08:12 .


#2652
CARL_DF90

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You know, between this thread and a certain picture (wish I had copy) I saw that had a view of the crucible room that had the captions "PICK YOUR WAR CRIME!", it really goes a long way to communicate just how badly written the endings really were. What idiocy compelled whoever wrote those abominations, I'll never know. Whoever did needs a demotion, and those out of touch fools at Bioware who coined that ridiculous phrase "artistic integrity" to describe and defend that garbage really need to pull their heads out of the sand and need a healthy dose of reality check before they irreparably ruin the franchise they built. I wonder if they even realize just how much consumer and fan loyalty they have lost and continue to lose over these debacles. There is a vid that even touches on a few of these points right here:



#2653
CARL_DF90

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Bump to promote an awesome thread. :)

#2654
drayfish

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Yee-Gads,
 
I hate getting dragged away from this thread, because there's never a moment that it's not all kinds of interesting... Unfortunately my brain is a little burnt out tonight, so I have nothing of substance to add, just dollops of praise:
 
 
@ Seijin8:
 
Although it's already been said (deservedly) several times already: it's great to have you back. Fine discussion of the depictions of PDST in gaming, and I've got to say, you paint a compelling portrait of a Shepard on the edge: paranoid, slightly erratic, justifiably concerned about where danger was going to strike from next... In all honesty, I wouldn't have wanted to see such a mechanic play out in Mass Effect (and, as both you and frypan have said, such a technique would almost certainly not even work given the player's entirely individualised investment and Shepard's background) – but riveting stuff.
 
 
@ FamilyManFirst and Fapmaster5000:
 
I am impressed that you have both found ways to massage and expand the current endings to be more palatable – certainly vastly better than what we have now. I'm really awed with the way you designed all those individual responses and consequences, Fapmaster5000. My opposition to the endings is pretty well locked in , but you manage to return the tone of the material exceptionally well, particularly considering the daunting challenge of remaining true to the text as-is. And I really love the thought of actually getting to tell Harbinger to his face to screw off. Nice.
 
 
@ CulturalGeekGirl:
 
I know exactly what you mean about the crew member figures! In the lead up to the release of Mass Effect 3 I would stare, every day, at a Normandy statuette coloured in the Alliance blues. I kept holding off on pressing the 'order' button, trying to figure out precisely where I would put the little guy when I bought it.  (Atop my computer? Is that too near the Mal Reynold's? Can I mix universes like that? Is that's allowed?) ...But I was always thinking when I bought it, not if. Then the ending happened and, well, I guess I just forgot. In fact, it wasn't until I just read your post that I realised purchasing that slick new Normandy had entirely slipped my mind. And that's ...sad. Disappointing and sad; two nerdmotions that I never thought I'd feel with Mass Effect until after those final 10 minutes. 
 
 
@ KitaSaturnyne:
 
A Phil Collins reference? I don't know whether to be impressed or frightened. ...Or frighpressed. Either way I'm charmed. Way to earn that top slot.

Modifié par drayfish, 26 mai 2012 - 02:48 .


#2655
CARL_DF90

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Phil Collins? Hmm...mildly creepy. :P
As for PTSD I have had the displeasure of seeing it for myself. Not fun being around someone like that, but that Asari in the hospital is closer to it than Shep, which I find utterly incredible. After all the crap ol' Shep has been through you'd think there'd be a few screws loose. :P Still, the theme of Shep's strength and leadership is maintained throughout.

#2656
KitaSaturnyne

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What's so creepy about Phil Collins? He was a fantastic drummer and songwriter in his heyday. If it weren't for his solo work and the work he's done with Genesis, I wouldn't have chosen music to be such a huge part of my life.

Anyway, Shepard suffering from PTSD is sure something that feels out of left field, especially in light of everything he/she has seen throughout the games. While it might have had a place in ME3, the story would have had to spend a lot more time on exploring it, rather than simply distilling it down to "Shepard's overworking and having vague forest dreams fueled by some kind of (previously unexplored) guilt".

Modifié par KitaSaturnyne, 26 mai 2012 - 07:40 .


#2657
CARL_DF90

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Not to mention having been periodically exposed to Reaper tech for 3 years, but that's another can of worms. :P

Oh, the Phil Collins thing was only mildly creepy because for ME3 it might actually work. ;)

#2658
drayfish

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@ KitaSaturnyne:
 
Yes, I was just being facetious before.  I quite like Phil Collins too, and he was pretty funny in his appearance in GTA: Vice City Stories. ...Although I was once on a lengthy car trip in which a Collin's mix-tape may have slightly made me lose my mind. I respectfully submit that a human being can only hear 'Groovy Kind of Love' so many times in a row before they snap. 

Modifié par drayfish, 27 mai 2012 - 01:01 .


#2659
KitaSaturnyne

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@CARL_DF90

Ugh. IT.

Well, it is true that Shepard can't dance!

@drayfish

I agree. Did you speak up about the lack of musical variety on said trip?

#2660
frypan

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Hi CARL_DF90 and cheers, good to see a poster at the moment. Also a hello to KitaSaturnyne, I saw Genesis once years ago, Mama was the first song and it made my hair stand on end.

This thread has gone quiet recently, which I attribute to the phenomenon that is Eurovision (go Estonia!) At least, I hope that is the case, but more on that later, as I have a veritable Maginot Line of text coming.

@Edisnoom.

Thanks for the Star Wars link. It was my partner’s birthday, so she received a life-affirmation card in true nerd form and was immensely pleased.

@Fapmaster5000.

Love your alternative Destroy ending, and stopped reading there as it summed up what I would be happy with. It’s interesting to compare it to FamilyMan Firsts. Both versions are well written, but it is the one that strays furthest from the dev’s that provides empowerment and the greater satisfaction.

If I can quote you, the following from your ending is also a summation of the value of this thread to me:

"I've got a couple million synthetics and organics right outside, with a couple thousand megatons of counter-argument aimed right at your "solution", kid."

@CultureGeekGirl.

If I can share my experience and not bore you, I never bought a single game related product until January this year, when one of those fine blue Normandies that Drayfish mentioned ended up in front of the TV. The day after I finished the game, it quietly ended up in the back room, where I didn’t even look at it until about a fortnight ago. Now I can do so, and think more about the good stuff every day, so its possible to come through the feelings you have, even if it takes longer than you expect.

My solutions to getting past the post game doldrums have been twofold, which means discussing this thread a bit if people will indulge me.

(A wall of text marches forth, rank upon rank like the hosts of Mordor - but hopefully not so ugly)

This thread goes through lively and quiet stages, but in case folks are drifting away, I would love to at least have a chance to say farewells in some manner. No tears, or cloying goodbyes, but maybe you have a vision you would like to share, or a summation of your thoughts.

Amidst all the acrimony of the post game situation, the intelligence, imagination and simple decency of people on this thread has been exemplary. I’ve seen posters arrive with hostility who have been made welcome, and who have been included in the discussion, something rare anywhere online.

Personally, the environment here has been the antithesis of most of what my preconceptions of forums were, due to the civility of the discussion. I have also been forced to lift my game, and have learned so much from others about narrative, game design – and just about any other topic that has been part of the formidable array of arguments mounted by posters. There is nothing finer than to be among people much smarter than yourself, who make you feel included and valuable.

As an aside, if there is one thing that Bioware should be proud of, it is that their game is being discussed alongside such great works of literature, or those works we hold so close to our hearts.

But enough of the back-slapping, the point I would like to make is an appeal to not simply leave, but to provide some closure. When I think of ME3 these days I think more of this thread and the wonderful posts – we owe it to ourselves to give it better closure that the game itself, when the time (inevitably comes) that we must leave.

I have no intention of leaving just yet, but would like to share, as my second point, the image I have while waiting for the EC to come out. I am not a writer and lack the skills to state things in the manner they deserve, but hope you will bear with me. I’d like to evoke the end of Joss Whedon’s Angel, and how a lack of closure can still be satisfying by raising possibilities about fighting the good fight.

My Shepherd stands atop a ruined building, looking out over the wreckage of London. But it is not just my Shepherd who stands there, he stands with all our Shepherds, those multiple versions that exist in parallel lines of existence, the embodiment of the dreams and aspirations of all those who love this universe and the possibilities it represents. Hell, even CultureGeekGirl’s Crow stands there, as far from my Shepherd as could be imagined, but united in the same cause.

That one figure stands for so much, all the peoples of all the galaxies in which Shepherd has existed, all the companions alive and dead, and most importantly the friends he worked so hard to keep alive to this point.

The reapers loom over the cityscape, their numbers beyond counting, their hostility palpable even at a distance. Undaunted, my Shepherd checks his magazine, and resolutely begins to pick his way towards the figures in the distance.

Thanks to these characters that Bioware brought to life, Shepherd has a reason to keep fighting when all looks so grim. When Bioware lost their way, the people I have shared this experience with ensure he does not fight alone.

The reapers don’t stand a chance.

Modifié par frypan, 27 mai 2012 - 02:06 .


#2661
KitaSaturnyne

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I'd like to second frypan's sentiment, and go one further.

While this thread has slowed down much in recent weeks, I have no intention of going anywhere, at least until everyone else decides to move on. I'd just like to say that I hold you all in high regard and would like to be able to call you all my friends. If you'd like, my name on Origin is the same as it is here, so you can add me if you like. I'll accept your requests.

I'd also like to see us gather again after we've each had the chance to experience the EC, so we can explore its triumphs and downfalls, as we have to the default ending.

Roger Ebert can kiss all our butts too, by the way.

#2662
delta_vee

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Frypan's eloquent sentiment is thirded, Kita's intent to stay is seconded, and I'll add my voice to the chorus of deep respect for everyone on this thread.

I haven't had much to say of late. Work's picking up, summer's here, and we're in the strangest videogame Purgatory I've ever seen while we await the EC. I have no idea if they can pull this out of the fire, but our only option is to hold out until it arrives.

In the meantime, Phil Collins can kiss my greenskin behind. >:)

#2663
CARL_DF90

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Careful guys. I'll start to like all of you and my friend list might start to grow. :P

#2664
edisnooM

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@frypan

Glad the Star Wars link was useful, it is a tool I plan to make use of as often as possible. :-)

I agree about the thread, this is the first time I have regularly taken part in a continuous discussion, and the thread has thus far manage to overcome very nearly every stereotype related to internet forums. I have found it very helpful in dealing with the fallout of the ending, and would like to thank everyone that has taken part, you're all true blue.

Hopefully the thread will continue on, I for one have no intention of leaving as long as there is still discussion going on.

Also I find the idea of "The Last March of The Shepards" very appealing.

@KitaSaturnyne

I'm not on Origin, but thanks for the offer though. :-)

Modifié par edisnooM, 27 mai 2012 - 03:56 .


#2665
KitaSaturnyne

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@Mani Mani

It's easy to friend people on here too. ;^) Now, I have to get my Game Cube ready because of you. I have a week off from work coming up, and I don't intend to waste it doing stuff, or getting schtick done!

@delta_vee

Be careful what you wish for!

Modifié par KitaSaturnyne, 27 mai 2012 - 04:17 .


#2666
edisnooM

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@KitaSaturnyne

Huh I didn't know you could add friends on here, I hadn't used this account much before the ME3 ending.

Also gaming can be important stuff.

#2667
frypan

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I very much like the idea of gathering after the EC is released. KitaSaturnyne has a good idea there. Even though I intend to keep posting if ideas come, and more importantly, reading other posts in the meantime, I think it would be good to discuss the EC afterwards, for good or ill. I have some deadlines coming up that shoud take up not so much time, as attention, but the EC should be out once that is all done and I'll be itching to discuss it.

Actually, if there is one reason to get excited, its the thought of some rich discussion regarding the content of the EC!.

As to how to do such a thing, not sure of the best method. Like Edisnoom, I'm a bit of a newcomer to forums and the like. I'd just assumed this thread would be active, or could be reactivated. I tend not to do a lot of online communication outside of this forum, nor any form of online gaming, so its all a bit new.

I dont think I'm on Origin, but if I am will add you in KitaSaturnyne if I figure out the details. As to how other folks feel, privacy is probably an important issue so if anyone knows a way we can get this topic restarted after the EC, should things slow down too much or the thread be closed, please let us know.

Who knows, once all that is over the devs and mods might be willing to communicate as well. Its understable them not saying anything right now, and it has actually been a blessing not having them on the thread - they tend to be the locus for some of the less rational, more heated conversations. However it might be nice to get their opinion once the whole thing is over. That said, I think the posts here prove we are perfectly capable of holding a conversation (and a virtual party) ourselves.

Back to Eurovision - what was I saying about deadlines?

Modifié par frypan, 27 mai 2012 - 05:11 .


#2668
Jorji Costava

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Let me also announce my intention to stick around, even though I've been quite irregular with my posts (and with my bowel movements; wait, scratch that last part!). There's some amazing stuff going on in this thread, and it's happened to me more than once that I've written something I thought was pretty interesting, only to refresh the thread before posting and finding that someone else expressed those thoughts way better than I could. It's been a privilege conversing with all of you about this game that we love and yet frustrates us so much, and I hope that it is a privilege we don't lose sight any time soon.

About Phil Collins, let me just add this: The only thing I know is that no party is a party without a Phil Collins tune. That's what Jon Lajoie tells me, anyway. :)

#2669
KitaSaturnyne

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I swear, we should be able to start a group on these forums called The Dinner Party or something like that.

As for revisiting the thread, I personally think it would be fitting either if dray were to start an EC-related thread, or if we were to simply return here with all new refreshments and a new perspective on the end to Mass Effect 3.

@Mani Mani

Technology is great. And you're right, gaming is a very important thing.

@frypan

I'll look forward to your request. If not, don't think it means we're enemies or something.

@osbornep

Indeed! It's gonna get all Sussudio up in hya!

... Did I really just say that?

#2670
edisnooM

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I don't think we probably have to worry about this thread being closed, I have seen threads that have lain dormant for a month or more brought back by one new post, so I imagine we can probably continue using it for any EC discussion we wish to have. However if people wish to start a new thread when the time comes that's fine too.

#2671
Sable Phoenix

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Why are we writing this thread off, again? It's like people are saying farewell to it. Regardless of whether it slows down between now and then, I think this is the perfect place to discuss the Exended Cut. If for no other reason than I expect the "clarified" endings to remain just as thematically revolting as they were without it.  By the same token I don't htink the discussion on the game as it exists is tapped out now by any means.

Modifié par Sable Phoenix, 27 mai 2012 - 09:43 .


#2672
drayfish

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@ frypan – your post was wonderful:
 

My Shepherd stands atop a ruined building, looking out over the wreckage of London. But it is not just my Shepherd who stands there, he stands with all our Shepherds, those multiple versions that exist in parallel lines of existence, the embodiment of the dreams and aspirations of all those who love this universe and the possibilities it represents. Hell, even CultureGeekGirl’s Crow stands there, as far from my Shepherd as could be imagined, but united in the same cause.

That one figure stands for so much, all the peoples of all the galaxies in which Shepherd has existed, all the companions alive and dead, and most importantly the friends he worked so hard to keep alive to this point.

The reapers loom over the cityscape, their numbers beyond counting, their hostility palpable even at a distance. Undaunted, my Shepherd checks his magazine, and resolutely begins to pick his way towards the figures in the distance.

Thanks to these characters that Bioware brought to life, Shepherd has a reason to keep fighting when all looks so grim. When Bioware lost their way, the people I have shared this experience with ensure he does not fight alone.

The reapers don’t stand a chance.

'Not a writer' indeed!
 
What a beautiful summation of this thread and its participants; I couldn't agree more. I've never been involved in any kind of forum thread before this, but I'm reliably told that I've been rather spoiled by the experience. I couldn't be happier to say that my first excursion into the interwebbingnets has delivered me into a world of passion and generosity of spirit that has made for arguably the most fruitful discussion of a text I have ever enjoyed. The wealth of thought, imagination and consideration in this thread is truly inspiring.
 
And I agree with both you and Sable Phoenix – I certainly have no intention of going anywhere yet. Sure there are some voices that it's a real shame to not hear from as much anymore – RollaWarden, Strange Aeons, Optimistickied, to name only three of countless others – but this thread keeps gathering up new voices, and (for me at least) the subject matter just keeps getting more intriguing as it shifts and moves in new directions.  I could never of guessed, weeks ago, stepping in to clarify my froth bag eruption, that this same analysis of theme could have organically moved into such multifaceted examinations of this game and its medium.
 
We've had roll calls of individual Shepards and their personal perspectives upon the end. I've gotten to witness, through other people's eyes, the betrayal of Mordin, the destruction of the Geth, the romance of Garrus, the shock, surprise, wonder and joy of an array of moments in the game that (even if I were to play each of those choices out myself) I could never have experienced as I now have, locked behind my own limitations of perspective.  Reading all of your words, your visions of your Mass Effect, I have been able to immeasurably expand my own understanding of this game. I have loved this series deeply for years, and to be able to see it grow even further, to deepen with all of your insights – your headcanons – is a gift for which I cannot thank you all enough.
 
Further to this I've seen extraordinary articulations of the nature of gaming itself: videogames as architecture; as a rallying cry for the imagination; as a venue in which to explore notions of psychological distress, achievement, affection. Your interpretations and suggestions have validated everything that I have always believed about games: that they are worthy of being called Art. Art requires an audience willing and worthy of engaging with it – and that is most certainly what I have found here.
 
And the references! All the marvellous references to a cornucopia of texts I love. I've gotten to hear Beyond Good and Evil, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead, Red Dead Redemption, The Tempest, The Muppets, all legitimately, insightfully woven into the discussion. You yourself just cited Angel, frypan! It's like you're all in my head. Come on!*
 
Perhaps it's just that I don't know when to leave a party, but I'm not going anywhere yet. The discussion is still too enticing, and you're still playing all my favourite tunes. (And yes, KitaSaturnyne, that does include Phil Collins.)
 
So, to use the famous old saying: like the proverbial moth to the flame I will continue to return ...because the light source by which I regulate my flight path has been overridden by a localised illumination that has sent me into an unstable spiral from which I am unable to escape, a failure of spacial awareness that will no doubt condemn me to disorientation, terror and possibly death.
 
Sure. It's a bit of a weird proverb. ...But moths, eh?
 
 
 
* That 'Come on!' was my call-out to Gob from Arrested Development. ...All right, so we can't all be good at references.

Modifié par drayfish, 27 mai 2012 - 12:42 .


#2673
Seijin8

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I am on board with the well-articulated sentiments. Its been a pleasure and an honor, and while things may slow down, the discussion needn't end. I'll be checking back here daily to see what is afoot, and when the EC arrives, I'm sure there will be no better group to discuss its themes, ramifications and (probably) flaws with.

I've personally learned a lot about narrative structure, had cause to expand my lingual and mental vocabulary to grasp some of the things people have said, and I feel the better for it.

This thread has provided an experience to grow, a bit of catharsis, and outlet for imagination, and no small amount of therapy.

I thank you all, and will happily stand my Shepard on that rooftop. M-98 locked and loaded.

#2674
Helios969

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Man, what a great write up.  Time to implement The Not Yet Dead Battlefront to rail against the unfairness of the game gods. (Angel Beats reference for those unfamiliar.)

#2675
sombodysomone

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The Wumpus wrote...

To be fair, developers don't "allow" publishers to set their deadlines, any more than any other sort of professional craftsman does. Hell, the reason the first Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy book ended so abruptly is because the publishers told Douglas Adams, "We're sending a guy over to pick up whatever you have. Finish the page you're on now."

Now, a lot of publishers do set unreasonable deadlines, and you can sometimes persuade a publisher to push theirs back -- which, in fact, someone did once for ME3, since the release date got pushed back from November to March -- but they're never happy about it, and you can't usually get a publisher to delay the same game twice. (Well, you can if you're 3DRealms, but that ended in tears.)


Judging by the abrupt way the story change's in the last fifteen minutes of ME3 and the overal terrible multiplayer. It's obvious that the reason the game was pushed back was to add the multiplayer and have the ending changed so the mass effect story can continue.

I don't know how to express my disdain that every game company wants to turn great games into the equivalent of madden and modern warfare and expect to succeed.