5087 réponses à ce sujet

[Jorji Costava]

On Earth: I think Anderson was supposed to be our anchor to Earth, which is probably why he figures so heavily in the ending. But it would have helped if he told us something about Earth other than that he was born in London, or that things weren't going too well on the ground. I suppose it didn't help much that his back story with Kahlee Sanders didn't have anything to do with Earth at all. I like Anderson, but his connection to Earth wasn't strongly enough established for him to serve as the anchor to Earth.

Interestingly, the whole "I was born in London" meme seems to have arisen as a result of a misapplication of the "law of three" referenced in the article delta_vee linked. By the way, I'm hoping to get an achievement for reading it. Instead of giving us a piece of critical information three different ways, the developers gave it to us the same way, but three different times.

On the geth and the reaper code: I also had a problem with this, but I suspect it's for reasons that are largely the opposite of what's been suggested here. I actually wasn't as bothered by the fact that it seemed to go against their ideology of building their own future, since I've never been that comfortable with the suggestion that it's wrong to use technology you didn't "earn" (there's a thread about this buried quite a few pages back, but I'm too lazy to dig it out right now).

What bothered me about the sequence was the apparent implication that the geth needed to gain individuality to somehow gain 'legitimacy' as a species, or that becoming individuals filled some gaping void in their existence. I liked the idea that their consensus is a mode of existence totally alien to our own, that they questioned the desirability of our own individuality, and that the game never settled who was "right" about this. The whole idea that the reaper code would make them more like us, and that this would automatically be better for them, seemed a little self-serving to me, anyways (incidentally, something like this seems to be what many, including myself, find bothersome about the synthesis ending - do we really want to suppose that the best or only way for everyone to get along is for everyone to be alike?).

EDIT: It appears my run of never appearing at the top of the page has now ended. I have to admit, I'm pretty broken up about it. Also, did you guys know that Anderson was born in London?

Modifié par osbornep, 28 mai 2012 - 09:16 .

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Got things to do today, but in relation to the "falling in love with earth" topic, were you thinking of maybe something like this?

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 28 mai 2012 - 09:14 .

[drayfish]

Anderson was born in London?

Why was I not informed?

Modifié par drayfish, 28 mai 2012 - 09:17 .

[edisnooM]

For having put so much focus on "Take Back Earth" they seem to have done very little with it. As has been mentioned we spend so little time there to form any sort of connection in game, this actually being the first time we even see it in game. Then we come back and are stuck in a very small patch of burnt ground in amongst the shatter remnants of London. We see destruction and ruin, and while it does set up the sombre atmosphere of the finale, it didn't really click with me. Fighting reaper forces through London was interesting, but I think it might have been better had it seemed more like we were part of the overall offensive as opposed to fighting on our own somewhere else.

Getting to spend time on Earth before the Reapers arrive would have been great, maybe Shepard is still under house arrest but working to prepare the planet for invasion. They could also have used this as an opportunity to show that Cerberus is up to no good, maybe investigate some unscrupulous dealings they have on Earth. Then seeing the Reapers strike this world we got to explore, the people we got to talk to, see all the defences we'd set up come crashing down, it could have been quite a poignant point in the game.

And actually getting to fight in other areas of the planet would have been fantastic. Maybe fighting through Europe and then a reverse D-Day invasion onto the shores of Britain, battling our way to London and the final push. I get that the Reapers were supposed to be overwhelming and beyond our power, but letting us feel like we actually "Took Back Earth" as opposed to landing and then running through London to a giant beam would have been great.

Modifié par edisnooM, 28 mai 2012 - 09:27 .

[delta_vee]

OMNIBUS TEXTWALL INCOMING. TAKE COVER.

@edisnooM:

[quote]That Walters comment seems to go against what Weekes said about how people on the Citadel would survive the Crucible explosion, or maybe just not many of them are left to survive. It makes me wonder if the writing team has decided yet what happened in the wake of the Reapers taking the Citadel.[/quote]
I don't think there was any consensus to begin with (given how sudden, forced, and frankly illogical the Citadel's kidnapping was), but I think it's more a matter of Weekes' statements going against Walters' ( who tweeted that before the PAX panel Weekes made his comments at). I have the sneaking suspicion many of the other writers weren't really on board with Walters' infernokrusher approach.

@Hawk227:

[quote]I didn't think she was that young in ME1.[/quote]
It wasn't so much her age in itself, but that I put her into the "little sister" role early on, and ME2 didn't really change that. Personal taste, I suppose.

[quote]Having lived most of my life only a few hours drive from SE Utah, I'm certainly familiar with the desert buttes and especially scrub brush. Yet Rannoch still felt a little alien, though certainly not as much as many of the planets in ME1. For me, I think, it felt like a more beautiful (and slightly different) version of home. The desert southwest without the shopping malls, trailer parks, and freeways. It was Tali's home, and on some level it reminded me of my home. [/quote]
I can at least understand that. Taste again. I'll go into more below about the overall design.

[quote]I didn't dislike the consensus. I think it could have done without the blasting of reaper code, which got tedious halfway through. Though, I'm not sure what (if anything) to replace it with.[/quote]
I'd agree the shooting got tedious, but given the meta-joke about Legion giving the counter-code the appearance of a gun so Shepard would be familiar with it, I'm willing to chalk the tedium up to a slipped-in commentary on the nature of the game's gunplay.

[quote]Hyperion, eh? I've never been partial to irregular moons. They just seem like asteroids. The only other Saturnian moon I'm partial to is Mimas.
[/quote]
Usually I'm the same, but Hyperion has that nifty chaotic-rotation thing which I find fascinating.

@frypan:

[quote]They really missed some opportunities to communicate messages about the game using exemplars, combat vignettes, or characterisation of Shephard's various allies and enemies.[/quote]
See the previous discussion of the Elcor extraction and what could have been. Instead we got a whole lot of singleplayer horde mode, even at a lot of points within the main story missions. Blech.

[quote]I still ended up enjoying it, only because of the Tali bond. This seems a perfect example of psychogeography (if I've understood the term right) driving the gaming space and giving it meaning. In my case it raised Rannoch above the limitations of the level design. This fits Delta's view of Tuchanka too, and how the whole story is elevated by the interaction of space and the characters.[/quote]
Yeah, you've got the term right. I think a given player's connection to Tali is a big determinant of overall reaction to the sequence as a whole, given the forgettable level design and plot contrivances. Me, I was never a Talimancer, and as I've said before, in my only playthrough I couldn't make peace. After pulling the trigger (repeatedly) on Legion, I think I was a little distant from any sense of accomplishment or satisfaction. To horribly paraphrase Tacitus, I gave her a desert and called it peace.

[quote]One thing I should like to add here is from history. The "Great Person" view of history is prevalent throughout this series, something I guess is inherent in the way games must tell their stories. In the case of Tuchanka, this is a good thing, as the presence of Eve, if she survives, allows for a fundamental shift in Krogan interaction with society, and hope for a better future, making Mordin's sacrifice part of something that will be more likely to have a long term beneficial effect.[/quote]
I suspect, with the kind of character-driven story ME (usually) is and how frequently our avatar is placed in a position to decide the fate of whole species, Great Person theory is pretty much assumed. I'm somewhat ambivalent about its prominence, but any save-the-world narrative is likely inherently slaved to it. "The right man at the wrong time can make all the difference." (Spoken with that strange cadence.)

I think Bioware was eager to pull away from that perspective with DA2, and perhaps if that game had more time it could've done something better with the idea of the player being a smaller part of a larger conflict. I suspect DA2's many other flaws may have contributed to a more widespread dislike for the concept than it warranted.

[quote]In regards to the consensus, Hawk227 is right about blasting the reaper code, which was rather dull. However, I agree with Delta_Vee that the way the story of the Geth played out was excellent. To see Quarians trying to save their creations was a new revelation that changed the nature of the conflict and redefined, without invalidating, the comments of the participants - who often simply acted as any would do in such a situation. This was a perfect example of development of the story, rather than a simple reliance on the previous games for resonance.[/quote]
That was the type of reveal which was done properly - something the Reapers' motivations could have used (oddly). (Side note: what is it with Legion getting all the interesting revelations in both ME2 and ME3? And dammit, why isn't he available earlier and more often?)

Moreover, I felt the Consensus mission literalized the exploration of history and memory in a way that ties into both the very concept of psychogeography (an idea close to my heart) and the imagery of cyberspace we've been tossing about since Neuromancer (which I'm sure the devs were happy to shoehorn in somehow).

@drayfish:

First: thanks!

Second:
[quote](It's also why the kid dying at the beginning of the game doesn't work for me so well – curiously a human face triggers less reaction for me than a Krogan curling their lip.)[/quote]
I think that's because kids are hard to model well (moreso than adults), and get trapped in the uncanny valley. Krogan, on the other hand, proudly occupy the Valley of Freaking Talking Dinosaurs With Guns, which is (I believe) a far more relatable area.

[quote]JadedLibertine wrote...

Now I've got the (admittedly not entirely displeasing) mental image of a blued-up Asari Tobias gyrating before that bachelor party in Eternity. Perhaps instead of being Mrs Featherbottom he could take over Kelly's position as the Normandy's psychologist, as he can combine the roles of both analyst and therapist.[/quote]
I just imagined that.

I've made a huge mistake.

[quote]KitaSaturnyne wrote...

ME3 could have accomplished all that if they'd delayed the Reaper Invasion. We could have seen this Earth of the future and become attached to it. If Shepard loves the planet enough to want to save it, we need to know why. We also need reasons to want to join that fight ourselves as the player.

You know what the most important plot point for ME3 was for me? Not saving Earth. It was uniting the galactic community towards acheiving a common cause: Destruction of the Reapers. Earth wasn't even icing on the cake, it was a little candy decoration.

And how hard would it have been to have included some rural areas on the way to London, instead of landing right in the thick of it head on? "Oh my god, I'm taking shelter in a barn, just like the Asari commando!"
[/quote]
Yep, yep, and yep. Add those to the ever-expanding coulda-shoulda-woulda pile.

Now, on to Rannoch:

It seems I touched a nerve. Sorry about that.

There are a number of factors in play for me. I'm with delphicovenant42 in that the various authorial contrivances (and quarian stubbornness) whittled away at my immersion. Plus, I'm evidently not quite as attached to Tali in particular and the quarians in general as many others are. I was more intrigued and interested in Legion and what he represented, but that was eaten away somewhat by the Reaper-code business (and I think osbornep nails the problem with that right on the head, and I share his objections in full).

When I hit the surface of Rannoch, then, I was met by largely empty desert and a bunch of geth waves. I would've enjoyed either Seijin8's fallen starships and crumbling infrastructure (a dash of post-Zentradi Earth from Robotech) or KitaSaturnyne's sprawling, pristine, empty cities (shades of Feros with better roombas). What I got, as frypan notes, was bland level design instead*.

I think drayfish has it pretty much right:

[quote]Ultimately for me it seemed fitting that what was finally revealed was so featureless, so abstract. I guess you could (justifiably) argue that it was some lazy asset design, but in this specific case, I was happy to see it as galactic metaphor of that whole Geth/Quarian war: an amorphous, indistinct shape, that means only whatever is projected upon it. 'Homeland', 'gravesite', 'bountiful future', 'land of ash and despair'...[/quote]
And it's likely that's what they were going for, but I brought less to it than many others, and thus it fell somewhat flat in my eyes. It lacked the conceptual punch (for me) to elevate it above its lackluster (again, for me) component pieces. That in my throughline it ended with an unavoidable genocide soured it beyond retrieval (much like the ending - zing!).

* As an aside: here I should differentiate between level design and environmental design. Though both are intertwined and created largely simultaneously, I think they represent two different aspects of our relationship with a space. Level design is about the space itself, how we move through it, how it is connected to itself and other spaces; environmental design is about how that space looks and feels and sounds, and what it intends to evoke in the player beyond the specifics of movement and enemy placement. Games like Portal or Dark Souls, which are fundamentally predicated on their spaces, are brilliant at both. Mass Effect is frequently amazing at the environmental side, it rarely does anything interesting on the level design front. There's no equivalent in ME to Liberty Island from Deus Ex or the bay invasion of Crysis.

The most sophisticated level I can think of was Haestrom in ME2, which combined an interesting environmental hazard (which drastically impacted movement) with challenging combat sections and multilevel spaces. Most of the other standouts were like LotSB's Shadow Broker ship exterior - beautiful to look at, but a quite thoroughly linear set of small arenas. ME3's only multiply-connected, vaguely-interesting levels were the N7 multiplayer maps, which of course we had no connection to and were stuck playing horde mode in.

Modifié par delta_vee, 28 mai 2012 - 09:38 .

[edisnooM]

@delta_vee

Ah, I missed the date the first time I read the twitter message. Also I now have the mental image of Walters and Weekes having a pencil swordfight after PAX. I assume that's how writers solve their differences of opinion.

[delta_vee]

Dammit, missed one.

CronoDragoon wrote...

I can't agree. Landing on Rannoch was an emotional high. It didn't really matter to me that the landscape was rather indistinct because Rannoch was always an idea, a goal, something that one of your squadmates/love interests had dreamed about, and the fact that it had existed only as a concept thus far in the series bound the character and race to the planet in ways unachieved by any other race/planet. The plight of the quarians, their very reason for existing as a narrative element in the game, is indistinguishable from their planet because of its highly developed status as a concept. Accordingly, when the concept is realized after 100 hours of gameplay, the moment takes on a rather surreal quality, as if you can't actually believe you have landed on Rannoch.

I agree in part with the bolded portion, but only in part. I understand how narratively alluring the prospect of the quarians' return is, especially once we met Legion and learned that peace might be possible - but I think that conceptual weight needs to be realized in a more compelling way (preferably free of rampant idiocy and authorial fiat).

Compare this with Thessia, where the planet really has nothing to do with the asari as a culture/race/who they are. To be honest, as someone who gets easily bored by Codex entries, I'm not entirely sure I knew what Thessia was before I visited it. Ilium, to me, was a great representation of the asari. It would have meant more if that had been destroyed instead. Anyway, Thessia is certainly unrelated to Liara's character in terms of her personality or life goals. Any pain I felt losing Thessia was unrelated to the planet itself or Liara's connection to it. I felt bad after Thessia because 1) Shepard (me) had failed when I needed to succeed the most, and 2) Liara was a wreck, but my sympathy only amounts to a visceral reaction to her emotional state, not some understanding of Thessia's loss as a symbol of something important to the player or his/her squadmates. By contrast, how would you have felt if Rannoch was destroyed before the quarians could land on it again?

I agree with you in full about our connections to Illium versus Thessia. The former was a real place to us, nurtured and revisited during ME2. The latter was a smoking ruin by the time we got there, just like all the other smoking ruins we'd seen during ME3 (and by gods, there were a lot of smoking ruins).

[Hawk227]

osbornep wrote...

What bothered me about the sequence was the apparent implication that the geth needed to gain individuality to somehow gain 'legitimacy' as a species, or that becoming individuals filled some gaping void in their existence. I liked the idea that their consensus is a mode of existence totally alien to our own, that they questioned the desirability of our own individuality, and that the game never settled who was "right" about this. The whole idea that the reaper code would make them more like us, and that this would automatically be better for them, seemed a little self-serving to me, anyways (incidentally, something like this seems to be what many, including myself, find bothersome about the synthesis ending - do we really want to suppose that the best or only way for everyone to get along is for everyone to be alike?).

Uploading the Reaper code wasn't about giving them individuality per se. It was about giving them true intelligence. Legion was the only one of his kind, a platform that held 1000 runtimes and could operate alone beyond the veil. The Geth gained intelligence only through plurality. In small numbers they were dumb. By destroying the Dyson sphere and killing huge numbers of runtimes, the Quarians dimmed their intelligence to the point that joining the Reapers seemed like a good thing.

When Legion uploaded the code, he wasn't making them all individual runtimes stuck in individual platforms, he was just upgrading the processing abilities of each runtime so that they weren't shackled to plurality. It made plurality a choice rather than a constraint. If you talk to Tali afterwards, she still talks about the Geth uploading into Quarian suits to stimulate immune responses. Nothing in the game specifically negates the previously stated desires of the Geth to build a superstructure where they can commune together. 

Back to psychogeography, I too agree in regard to Thessia. My only real connection was through Liara. Seeing the devastation to her home was upsetting, but as a locale it was dull. I was amazed at how bland it looked, especially compared to Illium. Also, as a mission it is only really interesting if Javik is brought along as well.

[delta_vee]

@Hawk

I'm pretty sure the term used was indeed "true individuality". Even if I'm wrong on that (which I could be), I still object to the term "true" with regards to intelligence, and much of the objection stands. I liked how the geth emerged from plurality - I don't consider it a "shackle" in their case.

Edit:
@osbornep

Achievement: unlocked.

Modifié par delta_vee, 28 mai 2012 - 10:57 .

[edisnooM]

I think this is probably echoing things others have already said, but it really does seem odd to me that we couldn't really explore at all in ME3.

In the previous two games we had places to walk around and look at the sights, talk to people, find things out, granted less in ME2 than ME1. But in ME3 the only places you get to walk around without your gun drawn is the Citadel and the Normandy. All the places we go, guns are out and there are always chest high walls and something to shoot just around the corner. The closest I think we come is in the ruins on Tuchanka, but that was fleeting and soon we were back to fighting the Reapers again.

There were interesting places to see of course, but everything felt so "Actiony" and hurried, there didn't seem time to stop and look at the sky like we did in Mako.

ME2 was criticized for being too severe on changing things people complained about in ME1, but I wonder why they changed things so drastically in ME3. Exploration was always a high point for me and I assumed for others as well, was this something people complained about? I wonder why BioWare decided to change so many of the things that seemed to have made the series so popular thus far.

[deliphicovenant42]

osbornep wrote...

On the geth and the reaper code: I also had a problem with this, but I suspect it's for reasons that are largely the opposite of what's been suggested here. I actually wasn't as bothered by the fact that it seemed to go against their ideology of building their own future, since I've never been that comfortable with the suggestion that it's wrong to use technology you didn't "earn" (there's a thread about this buried quite a few pages back, but I'm too lazy to dig it out right now).

What bothered me about the sequence was the apparent implication that the geth needed to gain individuality to somehow gain 'legitimacy' as a species, or that becoming individuals filled some gaping void in their existence. I liked the idea that their consensus is a mode of existence totally alien to our own, that they questioned the desirability of our own individuality, and that the game never settled who was "right" about this. The whole idea that the reaper code would make them more like us, and that this would automatically be better for them, seemed a little self-serving to me, anyways (incidentally, something like this seems to be what many, including myself, find bothersome about the synthesis ending - do we really want to suppose that the best or only way for everyone to get along is for everyone to be alike?).

I can see what Hawk227 is trying to get at with the idea of upgrading processing power as a way to mitigate any objection to the idea of adding Reaper code, but I agree with delta_vee and your [osbornep's] take on what seemed to be implied in the scene.  For me it was both the incorporation of Reaper tech in contrast to Legion's prior statements, as well as the undue emphasis on traditional notions of "individuality" that was distasteful in that final scene on Rannoch.  I've always been fascinated with Philosophy of Mind, (I'm heading back to grad school to do more work on that subject area in fact) so the whole concept of the Geth's alternative approach to intelligence, conciousness and individualty was deeply intriguing.  But that uniqueness cultivated so well in ME2 was swept away in the matter of a few lines of dialog on Rannoch.  I might have bought into Legion's decision more if I was given time to talk about the merits of his actions with him prior to or in that decisive scene, but in my memory of how I felt during the mission, his decision felt like it came out of left field and contradicted his character in crucial ways.  The scene was a clear instance of where I felt the author's presence rather than feeling like the moment made sense in the context of what had built up to that point.  The emotional notes being hit in the game at large were enough to keep me playing at the time, but that twist in the story chipped away at my overall immersion.  As I look back on my overall experience I think I should have better heeded the warning about how the story was developing.  The contrived nature of Mordin's death on Tuchanka was almost as bad, but I was so caught up in the payoff with Wrex I could more easily convince myself to overlook it.

I also wanted to say that I always interpreted Legion and Mordin's conversations about uplift/builing one's own future being not so much about "earning" in the sense of having enough credits to purchase something in a store, but more the idea that  progress is best when it is a progression of the culture itself rather than something gifted by/stolen from an outsider.  That there are second and third order ideas and cultural pressures that are needed to balance against technological advance that are absent when tech is simply adopted from someone else. Consider too that one of the principle themes of the ME universe up to that point has always emphasized the dangers of giving someone tech before they were ready.  Even humanity's adoption of the Mass Effect Relay and Prothean tech is talked about as a volatile mixture in our species' development.  Agree with the concept as a reality or not, Bioware argued strongly in that direction through the sympathetic characters you encountered througout the games, and for Bioware to then flip that idea on its head without much of a chance to explore the concept was jarring.  Yes, they had Cerberus and the Illusive man arguing for an adoption perspective throughout ME2 and 3, but particularly if Shepherd followed a paragon path that approach was always painted in a very negative light.  It serves as another example of a scene where Bioware narrows the field of possible Shepherds who would find the narrative palatable in a way that I didn't feel in the prior games. 

While we, the player, never had truly free reign, I never really felt pushed out of the story in ME1 or 2 by my options the way I did in 3.  I can't help but think so much of that feeling ties back to the fact that Bioware did away with the neutral and "investigate" options in the third game.  I was able to accept shoehorned events in the prior games, even something as big as as working with Cerberus, because they gave more dialog options where I could find my own throughline.  As others have said repeatedly througout this thread, ME3 was more about Bioware telling their story, and the game suffered for it.  Doubly so since Bioware marketed the game as the antithesis to such a narrowly scripted experience.

[edisnooM]

The topic of the Geth upgrades is another one where we have to speculate (man I hate that word) about what it means. The only Geth we hear from after the upload is that one Prime on Rannoch. He seemed sort of Legionish, but what that means is hard to tell. It would have been nice to talk to a Geth afterwards, find out what this meant for them, whether anything was different, maybe ask them if they thought of it as being given their future. We got to talk to Tali about the Quarians afterwards, why couldn't we do the same with the Geth?

Modifié par edisnooM, 29 mai 2012 - 12:02 .

[Hawk227]

delta_vee wrote...

@Hawk

I'm pretty sure the term used was indeed "true individuality". Even if I'm wrong on that (which I could be), I still object to the term "true" with regards to intelligence, and much of the objection stands. I liked how the geth emerged from plurality - I don't consider it a "shackle" in their case.

It's not. He uses the word intelligence. Individuality is never mentioned.

I see what you mean about "true" intelligence. I do like the plural nature of the Geth, and if we were talking about "true individuality" I would also object. But I don't see it as throwing away the consensus or how Geth work to reach agreements. Rather, I felt that their intelligence was literally dependent on plurality as being a limitation, as sort of shackle. I think the tone with which Legion speaks of it in both ME2 and ME3 supports this to an extent. He seems to lament how dim the geth feel while in isolation.

While I agree uploading the code opens the door to individualized Geth society, I don't think it prescribes it.

My personal objection to the scene was well stated here by deliphicovenant42:

I also wanted to say that I always interpreted Legion and Mordin's conversations about uplift/builing one's own future being not so much about "earning" in the sense of having enough credits to purchase something in a store, but more the idea that  progress is best when it is a progression of the culture itself rather than something gifted by/stolen from an outsider.  That there are second and third order ideas and cultural pressures that are needed to balance against technological advance that are absent when tech is simply adopted from someone else. Consider too that one of the principle themes of the ME universe up to that point has always emphasized the dangers of giving someone tech before they were ready.  Even humanity's adoption of the Mass Effect Relay and Prothean tech is talked about as a volatile mixture in our species' development.  Agree with the concept as a reality or not, Bioware argued strongly in that direction through the sympathetic characters you encountered througout the games, and for Bioware to then flip that idea on its head without much of a chance to explore the concept was jarring.  Yes, they had Cerberus and the Illusive man arguing for an adoption perspective throughout ME2 and 3, but particularly if Shepherd followed a paragon path that approach was always painted in a very negative light.  It serves as another example of a scene where Bioware narrows the field of possible Shepherds who would find the narrative palatable in a way that I didn't feel in the prior games. 

Legion had strongly argued against adoption of technology in ME2, so this was a big 180 in philosophy. The only saving grace (that might be too strong) for me, was that before Reaper technology came with the price of enslavement, and now it didn't. Legion says as much when advocating to Shepard in that scene.

Modifié par Hawk227, 29 mai 2012 - 12:37 .

[drayfish]

edisnooM wrote...

Getting to spend time on Earth before the Reapers arrive would have been great, maybe Shepard is still under house arrest but working to prepare the planet for invasion. They could also have used this as an opportunity to show that Cerberus is up to no good, maybe investigate some unscrupulous dealings they have on Earth. Then seeing the Reapers strike this world we got to explore, the people we got to talk to, see all the defences we'd set up come crashing down, it could have been quite a poignant point in the game.

And actually getting to fight in other areas of the planet would have been fantastic. Maybe fighting through Europe and then a reverse D-Day invasion onto the shores of Britain, battling our way to London and the final push. I get that the Reapers were supposed to be overwhelming and beyond our power, but letting us feel like we actually "Took Back Earth" as opposed to landing and then running through London to a giant beam would have been great.

What a great idea, edisnooM.  This would have really helped me invest in Earth - and, in any case, handled well, could have even sold me on the carboard cut-out of a child that we're meant to sympathise with for the remainder of the game.  If he was some kid scampering about in an Earth hub-world, someone we could talk to for a while, who could give us information he'd gleaned from his travels, overhearing military skuttlebutt, maybe even someone who still idolised Shepard despite all the bad Cerberus (or Arrival) press - well, cheesy as it might risk being, I could probably buy into the emotion when we see him get all bug-on-a-Reaper-windshield-ed during the invasion. 

Then he really would be emblematic of a lost connection to Earth, whether 'home' or not, whether we ultimately get to 'take it back' or not...


and @ delta_vee:

Loved the mention of the Shadow Broker ship.  Damn I loved that design.  Epic, ominous, ramshackle and cutting edge all at once.  Gah!  One of my favourite experiences in Mass Effect 2 (and yet it wasn't part of the original game - he said, poignantly-raising-his-eyebrows-to no-one-while-losing-himself-in-entirely-unrealistic-visions-of-the-EC).  I was truly sad to see that behemoth done away with in backstory come the opening of Mass Effect 3.


and @ Seijin8:

I too would like to cash in this coupon for one 'Achievement Unlocked'.  It's a little bent at the corner there, but you can make out most of the barcode number.

Modifié par drayfish, 29 mai 2012 - 02:09 .

[delta_vee]

@Hawk227:

I stand corrected on the wording - with the large caveat that Legion also claims it would make the geth "truly alive", and begins referring to itself as "I" (as does the Prime which ambles up later). I think it still heavily implies an anthropomorphic view of individuality as it relates to life, and detracts (in my mind) from what make the geth special. I'm with delphicovenant42:

...the whole concept of the Geth's alternative approach to intelligence, conciousness and individualty was deeply intriguing. But that uniqueness cultivated so well in ME2 was swept away in the matter of a few lines of dialog on Rannoch. I might have bought into Legion's decision more if I was given time to talk about the merits of his actions with him prior to or in that decisive scene, but in my memory of how I felt during the mission, his decision felt like it came out of left field and contradicted his character in crucial ways.

(Also, I'm not even sure how it would work. If Reaper code increases the processing power of geth runtimes, wouldn't that just lower the number required to reach Legion-level intelligence, or does it imply each runtime multiplies its capacity a thousand-fold, and renders a single instance capable of running a platform? If the former, it doesn't seem to be quite the sea-change it's made out to be, and if the latter, my original objection stands, and I'll add "code doesn't work that way!" to my list.)

Perhaps this is just another agreeable disagreement. However, I think the more important point is that both of our views reflect disappointment with the sequence on some fundamental level. Whether it's due to authorial pursuit of emotional satisfaction at the cost of narrative and logical coherence, or a simple misstep by writers who may not have entirely understood the nuances and appeal of their subject matter, is almost immaterial when both sides raise substantial objections to a scene which attempts to be a satisfying culmination.

@edisnooM:

In the previous two games we had places to walk around and look at the sights, talk to people, find things out, granted less in ME2 than ME1. But in ME3 the only places you get to walk around without your gun drawn is the Citadel and the Normandy. All the places we go, guns are out and there are always chest high walls and something to shoot just around the corner. The closest I think we come is in the ruins on Tuchanka, but that was fleeting and soon we were back to fighting the Reapers again.

I think you're spot-on, except for thinking we did less walking around and talking in ME2. I think that second disc of content is important to note, as is the number and depth of the locations we visit in ME2. I certainly felt the vision of the galaxy we got in ME2 was much richer and more varied.

The topic of the Geth upgrades is another one where we have to speculate (man I hate that word) about what it means. The only Geth we hear from after the upload is that one Prime on Rannoch. He seemed sort of Legionish, but what that means is hard to tell. It would have been nice to talk to a Geth afterwards, find out what this meant for them, whether anything was different, maybe ask them if they thought of it as being given their future. We got to talk to Tali about the Quarians afterwards, why couldn't we do the same with the Geth?

Why didn't we get that Prime as a squadmate, for that matter, as a replacement for Legion? I don't know if one could strictly blame resources, either - I'm tempted to believe that the writers found Legion's truly alien perspective exhausting in some capacity, and thus wanted to keep its prevalence to a minimum.

@drayfish:

I present to you one unlocked achievement, and a complimentary coupon for 'SPLOSIONS, redeemable upon request.

Also, you're almost convincing me that kid could work. Stop that. We must observe our Two Minutes Hate.

Modifié par delta_vee, 29 mai 2012 - 02:16 .

[edisnooM]

@drayfish

I hadn't even thought about the kid part but that is a great idea, handled right the kid could have become the sort of emotional hook they wanted him to be. Especially for my Shepard who was Earthborn, the kid could have come to symbolize the life he never had and then to have that taken away...

Thinking about it, what if instead of the rushed Reaper invasion we got, instead Shepard is out somewhere when the first Cuttlefish fall from the sky. Now Shepard has to try and rendezvous with Anderson amidst the chaos, but along the way he meets the kid who s/he's come to befriend and Shepard takes him along protecting him from the Reaper forces.

And either Shepard could drop him at the shuttles when s/he rendezvous with Anderson and the shuttle is shot down as it is now, or somewhere along the way the child is killed and Shepard can't prevent it. Done this way I can see Shepard feeling like s/he failed, and this child haunting him/her as a result.

[drayfish]

'SPLOSIONS!

[drayfish]

@ edisnooM:

Ooo... I like that too. Then we actually do get to earn that guilt and responsibility...

Oh no. Maybe delta_vee is right: you're making it work in my head. This could be a slippery slope...

Modifié par drayfish, 29 mai 2012 - 02:20 .

[edisnooM]

@delta_vee

Oh I think there was lots to explore in ME2, but I just always felt a bit restricted. Compared with Feros and Noveria (which looking back weren't actually that big) I felt that those areas were much more open, as well as all the worlds we could land on. I think it boils down to the mission areas for me, we had the hubs but then we get shuttled out to these other areas, do our thing and then get shuttled back, almost like they were separate from the world we're on. Granted I really liked that area we recruit Samara in, and it would have been cool if that had just been a part of Illium.

Also I certainly liked the worlds we got to see, Haelstrom stands out sharply, but it always felt so quick and, I don't know maybe  "Actiony" again?


@drayfish
Give in to the madness, we have better hallucinations. 

Modifié par edisnooM, 29 mai 2012 - 02:37 .

[frypan]

Wow, two pages of densely packed ideas, serves me right for not keeping up.

Could I go back a bit and add a couple of points about the Quarians and their return to Rannoch? Like Hawk227, I had no issue with the Quarians deciding on a war as they seemed in many ways an irresponsible race. Loveable to many of us, but with an impulsive and thick headed streak when it came to tinkering with or doing things they shouldn’t.

These characteristics were epitomized in the actions of Tali’s father, who messed with dangerous tech, in spite of a strong prohibition – a prohibition that by the way that suggests common sense was not enough to stop certain Quarians from contemplating such actions. Tali also serves as an exemplar of some of these characteristics too. Youthful exuberance, prickliness and personal drive seemed representative of her race (in much the way all the characters did for their species)It’s also the reason I liked her, even though I dont count myself a talimancer, she seemed full of genuine passion, loyalty and love for those she cared about- the upside of the negative characteristics.

This was also evident in the first mission in ME2, where a group of Quarians ran off and got themselves killed taking on a mech. All in all, the Quarians were often found nosing about in ruins or among things they should have thought about a bit more. When the Quarians went to war, it fitted how I saw them according to their actions thus far. I really think the devs intended this too, and that the war decision was an extension of the Quarian character.

As to the homeworld, Kita made some good points about the industry, a point other have also mentioned, and my impression of the planet stemmed from this view of the Quarian race. Much as I loved them, I thought the planet would be a mess, reminiscent of the industrial cityscapes of blade runner, beneath a sky constantly raining due to environmental breakdown.

The Quarians, for all their good qualities, could be seen as immature in their treatment of their home, not only their servants, ultimately making their exile also an extension of their characteristics, rather than simply the result of a loss of territory. They didn’t deserve the planet, at least until they had had some time to appreciate it.

This also raises an interesting idea- if Rannoch was a wasteland hostile to organics, the Geth would have been the only creatures naturally at home there – another revelation that could have advanced the concepts raised in ME1 and 2. It would have been an interesting insight into what the Quarians fought so hard for, and another example of their impetuosity and lack of foresight.

Not sure if the devs planned this by making the planet desert like, it’s a possibility but oif so, the point was not made strongly enough. Maybe a pond filled with plastic bags, industrial sludge and shopping trolleys might have sent the message? That said, the Geth seemed like organised sorts and may have been cleaning up – it would have been funny if it turned out they were terraforming the place to make it habitable again!

Maybe I’m taking a green agenda too far here, but it only applies to the Quarians – the Krogan planet was not a place for discussion of such issues, in spite of the race being even less responsible.

EDIT: and another 10 or so posts in the time it took to write this, I need to type faster!

Modifié par frypan, 29 mai 2012 - 02:45 .

[frypan]

Oh, and to Drayfish. Just standing on the Shadowbrokers ship, looking at the chaos of the terminator line was a highlight for me. It even beat another great moment - looking up from a moon to see the great rift on the planet above.

Both scenes showed a love for exploring the myriad possibilities inherent in a galactic setting.

[Jorji Costava]

Hope this doesn't end up on the top of the page! Feel free to throw stuff at me if it does.

As far as the reaper code, let me add to some of delta_vee's points on this. It's true that Legion doesn't use the word individuality; I'm doing some interpretatin'. But I think there's good evidence to sustain the interpretation. The full line is "Each Geth unit would be a true intelligence. We would be alive." There's some evidence that "alive" is Bioware's code word for "having human-like emotions, responses, tendencies, etc." Here I'm referencing EDI's remark to Shepard on Earth that (paraphrase) "It is only now that I feel truly alive. That is your influence." The suggestion seems to be that previously, the Geth weren't 'alive' in the relevant sense of the term, and that's just a worse way to be. Also, Legion's "I'm sorry, Tali," combined with the fact that the Geth Prime who greets Admiral Raan also introduces himself as "I" suggests to me at least, that Bioware intended this sequence as a sort of parable on the virtues and wonders of being a true individual. On top of that, there's EDI's conversation, post-mission, where she talks about how in his final moments Legion finally became a "person." So even though the word "individuality" is never used, I think it's a clear theme, and that Bioware seems to be suggesting that the Geth aren't really people until they become individuals.

@deliphicovenant42

I didn't clarify in my original post, but I did mean to be using the term "earn" in the same way you are. In the post I referenced earlier (still can't find it), the following analogy was used: If we found a cure for AIDS tumbling out of space from some ancient alien artifact, and someone proposed not using it because we didn't invent it ourselves, that would be really bad. Maybe there's a relevant distinction between "technology you didn't earn" and "technology you're not ready for," and it's really the latter that has moral significance. It would be bad if we gave nukes to cavemen, but it would be equally bad if by some miracle, cavemen figured out how to split the atom themselves. It seemed to me at least, that the Geth were 'ready' for the reaper upgrades.

Also, good luck with your graduate studies!

As far as exploration goes, I think I'm in agreement with edisnooM in that I'm biased towards how ME1 handled the exploration stuff. In ME1, even the combat-intensive sequences involved a fair bit of exploration (i.e. the tunnels in Feros, or the Noveria Rift Station). In ME2 and ME3, the map function is disabled during combat sequences, and it seems to be because you don't really need it. There's usually a fairly obvious path to complete the mission. For me at least, this gave the combat sequences a bit more of an "on rails" feel to them. Still highly enjoyable, but it would have been nice to have a bit more freedom during these sequences.

Last thing: I demand that Henry Jenkins release an "extended cut" of his article, available as a free downloadable DLC, that will provide additional clarity and closure for his article. But in all seriousness, it was an excellent piece.

[edisnooM]

@frypan

I was under the impression that the Quarians would have been conscious of environmental concerns on Rannoch from Tali talking about how they had a sort of symbiotic relationship with the plant life. Maybe that was just me though.

Also I think Legion did mention that the Geth had been repairing the damage from the Morning War, he didn't specify what the damage was though. I had always assumed he meant physical as opposed to environmental though.

Edit:

@delta_vee

I completely forgot to mention this earlier, I agree about the Prime squadmate that would have been awesome. Some of the cut dialogue indicates that at one time Shepard would have talked more with, and been fighting alongside, a Prime unit, whether or not it was a squadmate is unclear though.

Modifié par edisnooM, 29 mai 2012 - 03:04 .

[frypan]

edisnooM wrote...

@frypan

I was under the impression that the Quarians would have been conscious of environmental concerns on Rannoch from Tali talking about how they had a sort of symbiotic relationship with the plant life. Maybe that was just me though.

Also I think Legion did mention that the Geth had been repairing the damage from the Morning War, he didn't specify what the damage was though. I had always assumed he meant physical as opposed to environmental though.

Good point about the planet and plant life. Just dump that part of my post under the heading "speculation"

[edisnooM]

@frypan

Will do, there is certainly plenty of it going around from all of us. :-)