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"All Were Thematically Revolting". My Lit Professor's take on the Endings. (UPDATED)


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#2726
delta_vee

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@osbornep:

Jenkins has a whole long list of intriguingly-titled stuff:

http://web.mit.edu/c...blications.html

I'm going to have a hell of a time going through his backlog.

Also, I agree with your expansion of the geth individuality thing in full.

@frypan:

Good points about Bioware's overall presentation of the quarians' recklessness, but I'm always a little suspicious of anything to do with "racial character" outside of differing biological concerns (see: krogan). Bioware themselves spent a great deal of time during the first two games, at least, attempting to subvert and undermine such generalizations whenever they could.

Perhaps that's another thing to be disappointed in ME3 for - reducing races to caricatures at times after so much effort disproving the notions.

Edit: not again!

Modifié par delta_vee, 29 mai 2012 - 03:17 .


#2727
frypan

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@delta_Vee You are right - racial characteristics is a bit lof a loaded term and something Bioware discourage - evident as some Quarians did not want war, and more evident in the vastly differeent personalities of the Asari and Turians.

A more appropriate approach might be to say the Quarians were used to represent certain themes or characteristics, even if these did not define the people as individuals. This is similar to the manner the ME2 shipmates served in some sense as exemplars of those characteristics and themes.

In this case, the Quarians, like all races represented aspects of humanity that Bioware liked to explore. It is not often an alien race can represent something totally alien, as if we the audience can contemplate it - it is not that alien to us. The reapers, at least initially, were the only creatures to fit that "alien intelligence" idea fully, with the Geth and Rachni still representing certain human concepts - the Noveria mission is a classic example with contrasting views of motherhood represented by Benezia and the Rachni queen. (Not sure what the Geth might stand for here though - surrogate Pinnochios maybe?)

#2728
delta_vee

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frypan wrote...

A more appropriate approach might be to say the Quarians were used to represent certain themes or characteristics, even if these did not define the people as individuals. This is similar to the manner the ME2 shipmates served in some sense as exemplars of those characteristics and themes.

Fair enough.

Edit: good point about motherhood on Noveria, btw.

(Not sure what the Geth might stand for here though - surrogate Pinnochios maybe?)

That's exactly my problem with the whole "true intelligence" bit. It turns interesting, difficult, alien intelligences into just another thrice-damned Pinocchio story. It transforms an alternate model of cognition into an insufficient or incomplete one.

Frankly, there's a part of me which thinks that was the real genocide of the geth, and the Red Space Magic of Doom was merely a formality.

Modifié par delta_vee, 29 mai 2012 - 04:06 .


#2729
KitaSaturnyne

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The thing about the Rannoch and Tuchanka missions is that they're not victories on the part of ME3. At least, not alone. The rewarding feelings we experienced during those missions were due more to the heaps of setup we got concerning them and their indigenous species in the previous two games, rather than anything ME3 had done.

Why is this game a good starting point for newcomers again?

@delta_vee

Lately, it seems that whoever gets top page once will usually get it consecutively.

Modifié par KitaSaturnyne, 29 mai 2012 - 04:08 .


#2730
shepLJ

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I re-read this forum thread from a few years ago - and it is very interesting considering the ending of ME3


Klencory the "lost crypts of beings of light"

enjoy!Posted Image

#2731
edisnooM

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@shepLJ

Don't think the link worked, but it is very interesting how Klencory lined up with the ending. If that was BioWare's idea of foreshadowing I think they may have missed the mark a bit. :-)

Also if it's the thread I'm thinking of, I forget the users name, but someone stated they didn't want an ending very similar to what we got.

@KitaSaturnyne

I really have no idea why they thought the last game in a trilogy was a good entrant point for any reason, I'm inclined to believe it was more marketting hype than anything else.

Modifié par edisnooM, 29 mai 2012 - 04:21 .


#2732
delta_vee

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@Kita

At least Tuchanka and Rannoch ME3 contributed something to our body of knowledge (the ruins of the krogan renaissance and the revelations of the Morning War, respectively). This is part of why those sequences are the most-commonly cited high points. The rest of the game, though, offered so little new insight. (Oh, and only those two sequences had us killing Reapers - the ostensible goal of the whole game. Hmmm. Odd.)

As for top post, at least I have shiny links to distract people. :)

Going back a bit:

edisnooM wrote...

Oh I think there was lots to explore in ME2, but I just always felt a bit restricted. Compared with Feros and Noveria (which looking back weren't actually that big) I felt that those areas were much more open, as well as all the worlds we could land on. I think it boils down to the mission areas for me, we had the hubs but then we get shuttled out to these other areas, do our thing and then get shuttled back, almost like they were separate from the world we're on. Granted I really liked that area we recruit Samara in, and it would have been cool if that had just been a part of Illium.

It might have been a cooler approach, but I suspect limitations of the engine got in the way. Then again, those cab rides and convoys did give something of an impression of a wider world outside of walking distance. I think I'm okay with that tradeoff. (And dear gods how cramped Feros was, now that I think about it.)

Also I certainly liked the worlds we got to see, Haelstrom stands out sharply, but it always felt so quick and, I don't know maybe "Actiony" again?

"Sharp" is assuredly the first adjective that comes to mind when I think of Haestrom. That saturated lighting, those razor-edged divides between sheltered and scorching, the starkness of the landscape and the old quarian buildings both.

And yes, it was action-y. I think its inhospitable nature demanded it. Nevertheless, it was a relatively big slice of world, we spent a decent amount of time there, and we even got some decent conversation out of it (miss you, Kal'Reegar!). It wasn't a hub by any stretch, but it was a distinctive and memorable locale in its own right, and that's the important part.

Modifié par delta_vee, 29 mai 2012 - 04:21 .


#2733
drayfish

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frypan wrote...

Not sure if the devs planned this by making the planet desert like, it’s a possibility but oif so, the point was not made strongly enough. Maybe a pond filled with plastic bags, industrial sludge and shopping trolleys might have sent the message? That said, the Geth seemed like organised sorts and may have been cleaning up – it would have been funny if it turned out they were terraforming the place to make it habitable again!

Wall-e.  You're describing Wall-e, frypan, and I love it.  I now demand - that's right Bioware, demand a scene in which Legion is trying to tap dance with a trashcan as a hat.

Do it...


p.s. - Did I ever mention how happpy this thread makes me? 

Modifié par drayfish, 29 mai 2012 - 04:29 .


#2734
Jorji Costava

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@delta_vee

That list of publications does sound fascinating; looks like I'll be wasting a lot of time over the next few days.

@edisnooM

Here's the link to that thread:

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/105/index/970146/1

The relevant post is the 6th one down:

screwoffreg wrote. . .

Exactly.  There are two endings I wouldn't like for ME 3.  One being a random GOD LIKE force that saves the Galaxy or another being that to defeat the Reapers, everyone has to become a primitivst and destroy the Relays, Citadel, etc.  Both would make me pretty unhappy as those endings have been done to death.


I'm afraid there's really not much I can add to that.

Concerning the quarians and the 'racial characteristics' issue, I'll just add that for the most part, I think Bioware has done a better job than most at avoiding the "Planet of Hats" trope. In one of my favorite exchanges from ME1, they explicitly call attention to this:

Kaiden: I haven't spent much time with Krogan before, Wrex. I have to say, you're not what I expected.
Wrex: Right. Because you humans have a wide range of cultures and attitudes, but all Krogan think and act exactly alike.

Modifié par osbornep, 29 mai 2012 - 04:32 .


#2735
edisnooM

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@osbornep

Thanks, I knew it was something "reg". It's almost as though the powers that be looked at that post and went:

"That. Is. Exactly what we need."

Modifié par edisnooM, 29 mai 2012 - 04:40 .


#2736
frypan

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delta_vee wrote...

That's exactly my problem with the whole "true intelligence" bit. It turns interesting, difficult, alien intelligences into just another thrice-damned Pinocchio story. It transforms an alternate model of cognition into an insufficient or incomplete one.

Frankly, there's a part of me which thinks that was the real genocide of the geth, and the Red Space Magic of Doom was merely a formality.


Yep, it was a bit of a disappointment in the form given. I avoid thinking about that one too deeply and just focus on the idea it was a "happy" ending. Otherwise it all gets too grim.

Like you, I loved the diversity aspect. The one I would love to have explored further was the relationship between Drell and Hanar. That seemed ripe for further investigation as a new form of symbiosis, should the devs have pursued that line of thinking.

Another line of thinking that begs investigation are concepts Vernor Vinge raised in his novel "Fire Upon the Deep" His was another story predicated on AIs running amok, in this case they only arose at the fringes of the galaxy, due to some flummery about the "noise" at the centre preventing such existence. They then expanded inwards until they reached a boundary - their existance was also tied to FTL drive and destruction of one could not happen without losing the other.

One AI expanded rapidly after an accident at a facility, assimilating all thinking societies in a manner remarkably similar to synthesis. In this case though, the implications were horrifying. Vinge wrote little ethernet blurbs at the start of each chapter, messages form various civilisations fighting this assimilation. One in particular struck me, as it was so fiercely courageous and independant.

It went silent at one point, and when its broadcasts resumed the message was all about the wonders of the synthesis. Chilling stuff.

Why I raise the story is because I have a particular issue with the Reaper strategy of conventional war. To me it just doesnt seem likely to succeed. One Quarian colony ship on the run, one hidden base, or even one geth ship powered down might be enough to survive the holocaust and throw their plans into chaos. Niven's "known Space" series presents one such situation, when the puppeteers physically shift their homeworlds to avoid a catastrophe - something that is hinted as possible in ME1 regarding using Mass drives to shift a moon (although that time it was rejected as too expensive).

The devs need a conventional war and fair enough, it looked great and gave the war a visceral feel. However I have issues with its success due to the chance a small number of people would be enough to survive and prepare for the next cycle. I know the Ilos story presents a failed attempt to do so, but the Ilos base was not found by the reapers and failed over time -its people were killed by the VI while in coldsleep. In contrast, any small colony would have a head start on the cycle if it slipped under the radar, possibly by hiding in caves or taking to the trees

The key is, Vinge set up the means for civilisation to fall en masse, and while I accept the reaper strategy from a gameplay perspective, it feels like something is missing to explain the total destriuction of all intelligent races. Maybe if they had a method for detecting and ultimately overcoming all life, similar to indoctrination that kicks in once a critical cull level is reached? 

What do folks think? I havent even touched on the obvious failure of Reaper logic - to utilise their paradigm shifting weapon revealed at the end, as this has been mentioned before.

Modifié par frypan, 29 mai 2012 - 04:55 .


#2737
edisnooM

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@frypan

I've mentioned it before, but dwelling on the plotholes of Mass Effect is a path to madness.

I know that they did utilize census data in their attacks, but that clearly failed in finding Ilos. And given the size of the galaxy it seems very odd that no one has survived by hiding somewhere in one of the cycles. Also since nothing has ever been mentioned about some sort of technology or life detection system, I'm inclined to believe it doesn't exist despite how much sense it might make.

Because Vigil makes mention of it being a slow process, and how the Reapers stripped technology before leaving, I would assume that they did thorough checks before leaving again. But then again this is a problem with Ilos, maybe since they were in stasis inside the bunker they slipped by?

All in all, I have no idea. Without the ending I probably wouldn't have given it much thought, but now there is a lot of stuff glaring at me.

Modifié par edisnooM, 29 mai 2012 - 05:15 .


#2738
delta_vee

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This is why bringing in your eldritch abominations in force to fight against directly is a Bad Idea.

"Cthulhu devours 1D6 researchers per turn."

/night

#2739
KitaSaturnyne

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While the topic of Tuchanka is still relatively fresh...

Was I the only one who went "You go, girl" when Kalros defeated that Reaper and dragged it underground?

Also, did I already ask that? I have the feeling that I did, but I can't find it anywhere.

#2740
edisnooM

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@KitaSaturnyne

I don't remember you asking that. I didn't, but it's funny though.

#2741
frypan

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@KitaSaturnyne

Yeah, Kalros made me smile. Did she ever make it into the war assets? Would have been nice to see her snack on a small annoying citadel dweller at the end. The Destiny Ascension had a big enough gun to launch her, and she would have looked great crashing onto that last platform with an almighty "splat".

and Drayfish - I didnt think of the Wall E connection, but its a wonderfiul image. Maybe the Quarians should have been a tad larger to help make the picture complete.

@edisnooM and Delta_Vee - I see what you were both doing there. I've just modified my madness meter accordingly.

EDIT: spelling as usual.

Modifié par frypan, 29 mai 2012 - 05:48 .


#2742
KitaSaturnyne

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@frypan

Sadly no, though she took down a Reaper single-handedly. I figure if anything, you could rig a slingshot up in that giant hole in the middle of the Destiny Ascension and let 'er rip. In more ways than one. Knowing the rather random assigning of values to war assets though, she'd probably be a 1 or a 5 or something.

#2743
frypan

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@osbornep and ShepLJ.

I just looked at that other thread. Talk about an "I told you so" moment. It must be hard with all of us rabbiting on, but the writers really needed to read that.

#2744
drayfish

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KitaSaturnyne wrote...

While the topic of Tuchanka is still relatively fresh...

Was I the only one who went "You go, girl" when Kalros defeated that Reaper and dragged it underground?


@ KitaSaturnyne:

Posted Image

(I might be attributing wrongly, but I believe this is the work of a poster named I LikeTo Doodle.  I've been in love with this pic for weeks now.)

Modifié par drayfish, 29 mai 2012 - 07:22 .


#2745
CARL_DF90

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Wow. I like.

#2746
KitaSaturnyne

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@drayfish

Ha! I like that. I suppose on one hand, the mother of all Thresher Maws would be quite lonely, given how her kids are spread across the galaxy and probably never call.

Note: The codex goes into how they are born from very hardy spores that can even endure the vacuum of space and grow up on other planets.

#2747
drayfish

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@ KitaSaturnyne:

Nice.

'You never call, you never write. I give you my flesh and acid-blood, and no one remembers my Birthday except all those funny little Krogan fellows.'

#2748
CARL_DF90

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Glad to see this thread is still going strong! :)

#2749
CronoDragoon

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delta_vee wrote...

I agree in part with the bolded portion, but only in part. I understand how narratively alluring the prospect of the quarians' return is, especially once we met Legion and learned that peace might be possible - but I think that conceptual weight needs to be realized in a more compelling way (preferably free of rampant idiocy and authorial fiat).


Well, I had no expectations or prior notions about the planet itself, so it didn't matter to me that it was just desert with weird plants. Come to think of it, such a landscape is far more fitting for the "new beginning" vibes you get from the truce option, rather than wasted cities and the skeletons of the prior conflict reminding you everywhere you go.

About the shift in geth thinking from a hive-mind, consensus-based culture to an individualistic one; I do think it's more than just another pinnocchio story. I don't recall the specifics, but we have a conversation with Legion where he sort of admits just how dangerous the hive-mind concept has proven itself. Indeed, twice the geth made the wrong decision in joining the Reapers based upon consensus, and we saw how easy it is to control a hive-mind in Legion's loyalty mission, where a push of a button rewrote their conclusions to concur with the majority. I think Legion is right when he decides that such a population is not a true intelligence but rather merely a number dependent on the combination of every other number, and that by uploading himself to the rest of the geth and making them autonomous he is doing something worthy.

Of course, that isn't to say that individual-based cultures like humans are not suspectible to wrong decisions on a massive scale. But I think what differentiates humans from the geth is simply how easy it would be to manipulate the hive-mind. A simple tweak to an equation here, a 1 instead of a 2 there, could lead to a drastically different conclusion which is followed, without question, by every platform.

I think that this judgment of individuality as superior to the hive-mind is also supported by the alleged original plot to ME3, which revealed that the Reapers want the humans because of how diverse their DNA is. It is also stated during ME2 at the least that humans are by far the most individualistic race.

So, in summary, while the geth culture was an interesting idea, I find nothing wrong with the writers concluding that individualism is to be preferred over a collective consciousness. It would have been nice for people who preferred the geth continue their quest for a perfect collective intelligence to have that option, this being Mass Effect, but it seems to be a theme in this game to limit options and railroad when deemed necessary.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 29 mai 2012 - 04:06 .


#2750
delta_vee

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CronoDragoon wrote...

Well, I had no expectations or prior notions about the planet itself, so it didn't matter to me that it was just desert with weird plants. Come to think of it, such a landscape is far more fitting for the "new beginning" vibes you get from the truce option, rather than wasted cities and the skeletons of the prior conflict reminding you everywhere you go.

This may be Yet Another Matter of Taste (YAMOT), but I think the old conflict's remnants always underfoot would've added some subtlety and nuance to the peace option. If the scars still remain, and the new beginning is in the middle of a masoleum, would we be so sure that peace would last?

This might also chip away at our certainty of the Catalyst's error about synthetics and organics. To have peace so seemingly certain if the option was available is a large part of the foundation of our discontent with its reframing of the series' conflict - if that certainty were undermined, if after calling off the fleet we were still reminded with a mere glance at the destructive potential the geth retain, would we be so convinced the Starkid was wrong? (I for one would, but it would at least give me a moment's pause, which is more than the current incarnation does.)

About the shift in geth thinking from a hive-mind, consensus-based culture to an individualistic one; I do think it's more than just another pinnocchio story. I don't recall the specifics, but we have a conversation with Legion where he sort of admits just how dangerous the hive-mind concept has proven itself. Indeed, twice the geth made the wrong decision in joining the Reapers based upon consensus, and we saw how easy it is to control a hive-mind in Legion's loyalty mission, where a push of a button rewrote their conclusions to concur with the majority. I think Legion is right when he decides that such a population is not a true intelligence but rather merely a number dependent on the combination of every other number, and that by uploading himself to the rest of the geth and making them autonomous he is doing something worthy.

A small (and respectful) nitpick which may snowball into a larger one: rewriting the Heretics only compelled them to return to the Consensus and reevaluate; it didn't force their conclusions themselves down any given path. Which leads to the larger nitpick: the geth were not enslaved into collaboration with the Reapers, they were offered it. Legion still believed it was a bad idea on some level, hence its assistance to Shepard, but through all three games any allegiance to the Reapers was chosen rather than compelled. We cannot say the same about the Reapers' organic servants. It seems to me that the game almost argues the opposite: any organic mind is in danger of being turned, and while synthetic ones may choose the wrong side or the wrong conclusion, they are actually more resilient to such tampering.

This is perhaps the root of not only my discontent with Rannoch's handling of the geth, but ultimately the Synthesis option as well. If you're right, and the game at large is in fact making an argument for the surperiority of our particular notion of individuality and life, then the Catalyst's insistence on a permanent divide is a matter of cognition, not building blocks - the plural mind versus the singular. And thus if Synthesis is truly a solution, then either one model of cognition would have to be forcibly imposed on the other, or both would be ruptured and discarded in pursuit of some strange hybridization. Either of these possibilities are mindrape or worse, and both destroy the promising concept of different forms of thought coexisting instead of inevitably blending or conquering. That, to me, is something of a retrograde attitude on the part of the game, and a source of much disappointment.