5087 réponses à ce sujet

[KitaSaturnyne]

Seijin8 wrote...

@KitaSaturnyne:  I can justify every point you make against the Reapers.  Please don't take this as meaning "I am right and you are wrong", because, God knows, the overall plot of ME3 is screwed beyond recognition, so I doubt much attention was paid to the warfighting logistics of the enemy.

Why not go right for the Citadel?  Because Sovereign died trying that.  The Reapers may not know the particulars of how this happened.  The truth was covered up by all of the Citadel races, and though the Reapers have many tools at their disposal, how many have high-level military intelligence access is probably a small number, and possibly zero.

Further, the clearest threat to their point of view seems to be Shepard - a human.  The seat of humanity's power is not the Citadel, but a little backwater rock named Earth.  It was the intervention of Systems Alliance forces that stopped the initial invasion, so the strategic focus can reasonably be shifted to Earth.

Once Earth is under control, bring the Citadel to Earth so that military assets do not need to be spread between two locations.

I would hazard that the Reapers are far better on offense than on defense, thus the relative success of the Victory Fleet.

(The 1.5 Reapers is Sovereign and the baby Reaper on the suicide mission)

Sovereign was one Reaper versus a (somewhat) prepared fleet, and only got destroyed after reinforcements arrived. The Reaper wave in ME3 would be hundreds or thousands, catching patrolling fleets with their pants down. And if they have no intelligence as far as Sovereign's death, they'd go for the Citadel anyway, since they'd have no reason to believe such a plan would fail on any level.

Bringing the Citadel to Earth makes sense for your reason, but the reason stated ingame is that they're keeping an eye on it so it can't be used to complete the Crucible.

Whether the Reapers are best on offense or defense, bum rushing the Citadel would still work, especially with their numbers. It would be a cakewalk, and that's on a bad day.

I just want to say on a side note that Shepard getting credit for dusting Sovereign pisses me off. Unless Shepard himself got out and knifed the bugger to death himself, he didn't do a thing. As for the baby Reaper, yeah. Forgot about that one.

EDIT: Oh, bloody hell. I dunno, take a shot for every time I've been at the top of a page. I don't feel like going back and counting, so I'll just say 20.

Modifié par KitaSaturnyne, 01 juin 2012 - 05:56 .

[Seijin8]

Again, with the caveat that I am constructing semi-plausible arguments out of thin air...

We don't know what kinds of threats the Reapers have faced before. If there has previously been a cycle able to come up with a contagious "bioweapon" against Reapers, putting everything toward the Citadel could be suicidal.

And I base the idea that Shepard is given credit for doing it on the Reaper's reaction toward him, not on the reality of the situation. For all we know, the Reapers have had to deal with "hero figures" before, and considered their elimination a top priority, possibly even crediting Shepard as being more dangerous than he/she really was, simply for the ability to convince this cycle's forces to work together.

As far as the Citadel being brought to Earth, we only know the assumed reasons for it. I doubt the Reapers sent out a broadcast saying "we have taken the Citadel so you can't use it against us, ha!" The stated reasons for doing it may be military supposition... just like what I am doing now

[KitaSaturnyne]

Yeah, Shepard gets credit for offing Sovereign all over the games too. It still ticks me off.

Conjecture is all well and good, but if it's all we have to go on in terms of the Reapers' actions, then it's pointless to debate the matter at all. It's like the endings - all we have are 'maybes' and 'what-ifs'.

[frypan]

Seijin8 wrote...

SNIPPED for summarising 

Javik is our best source of information on the Reaper's actual military tactics and capabilities. In his cycle, the Reapers seized the Citadel and shut down the relays, and it still took hundreds of years to bring the war to a close. The Reaper's timescale is enormous. We don't know if either the Prothean's cycle or ours is a "typical" Reaping, or if there is even such a thing. The Reapers may utilize wildly different tactics in every cycle simply to avoid the chance of strategic data having survived, so they don't accidentally stumble into a trap.

The use of the relays to cause civilizations to evolve along lines they choose is actually a briliiant concept. As various devs have pointed out, this meant that research into FTL would dead-end because it was inefficient.

With the relays closed, the Reapers know the rough locale of every scrap of colonization. Their superior speed lets them assault these places and ultimately overtake the organic civilizations before they can run. All colonies must be near the relays.

If Catalyst is honest about the Reaper's motivations, then I have to assume the Reaper's strategies are as paradoxical and contradictory as any military "hearts-and-minds" campaign, with many conflicting strategies at work. Where they draw the line may be a matter of the Reaper on-scene making that determination for themselves.

There is just so much we don't know. It makes it easy to come up with viable answers that are no doubt completely incorrect fabrications.

*Shrug* I am happy to play the warfighting "what if" game for as long as needed though

Some interesting possibilities there, as those questions do answer some of the issues I have with Reaper objectives. You've raised some interesting ways in which they can maximise the net they cast, even if I still think there are opportunities for small, self sustaining groups to evade or hide from them.

It would seem they have to use all those methods you mention, and it fits that they would have out thought any potential races as part of being around so long. We just have to assume it happens in the background as you mention.

Successfully explaining their objectives does have one side effect though - it diminishes the scope of the Mass Effect Universe to me. If the galaxy is the Reaper's pre-planned battleground, with all potential life sustaining planets marked out, somehow the place seems smaller and less wondrous.

Where are the lifeforms the reapers cannot simply process, those shapes that drift between stars, or have evolved among the Oort clouds of systems? Where are the forms that exists in other hard to get places, such as planetary cores or within Jovian giants - ME1 in particular hinted ta such creatures. And what about the parts of the galaxy without  mass relays - are there any, or have the reapers simply turned the galaxy into a transit driven killing zone?

All conjecture on my part, but here the potential of the Mass Effect Universe comes into conflict with the story for me. While it is an amazing place, it lacks that element of the unknown if the reapers have it all wrapped up. All those unusual possibilities for life, all those creatures are extinct or never got a chance to exist, and the idea of setting off to discover new civilisations simply not possible. That is something that is a bit saddening but an inevitable part of the Reaper dominated cycle of the galaxy.

Wish I hadnt thought of that.

Modifié par frypan, 01 juin 2012 - 06:29 .

[Seijin8]

Nah, the overall concept can remain true without diminishing variation at all.

- We've been told all along that organics vs. synthetics is the core issue for the Reapers, but that doesn't have to be the totality of options. There may be other lifeforms that do not fit either description, and are simply irrelevant to the Reapers.
- Civilizations that strictly do not create synthetics (for whatever reason) may also be invalid targets.
- If synthesis is a valid way of removing the conflict, then any species that has already "transhumanized" would be likewise invalid as a target (easily arguable, but still...)
- Gas-cloud dwelling creatures may have rich and varied cultures of their own, but no capacity to create synthetics, or no demonstrated desire to do so.
- The Reapers were probably created by a pre-singularity species that programmed/designed them for a specific purpose. Nothing says they accounted for everything and there may be "target profiles" that did not exist a billion years ago, but exist now.

Also, as an aside... The only way that the Reaper's overall goal is even capable of being achieved is if they know for sure no extragalactic synthetics will come to the Milky Way. They couldn't know this unless Reapers existed in *every* galaxy. Shepard may have only defeated(merged with/shagged off) the Milky Way's Reapers. In theory, it would have only taken a single Reaper to travel to another Galaxy and build up the very same kind of force we faced in our cycle.

EDIT:  Another aside that I forgot to mention earlier... One reason the relays may have remained active is the same modification the Protheans made to the Citadel.  If the Citadel is the central hub of relay control, the protheans messing with it may have damaged that function.

Modifié par Seijin8, 01 juin 2012 - 06:46 .

[Seijin8]

As I dwell on this idea of other lifeform types being around, there may very well be other types of life that benefitted from the Reapers destruction of advanced organics. We have no proof that the Reapers were made by organics or synthetics.

[frypan]

@Seijin8

That is a good point about other galaxies. Cant imagine the Reapers establishing a program of their sort for just one galaxy. The logic defined by the catalyst is pretty universal.

I also cant imagine them leaving anything intelligent alive though, even if a species cannot produce synthetics. Programs of synthesis might be matched by programs of eradication for such species. Those might be the ones who cop asteroids or planet busters for merely existing as a potential threat.

"I imagine...I imagine" hmm, I'm doing a lot of that. Too much information, maybe? Have to check out for the moment and reassess how I think the ME Universe exists outside the game limitations.

EDIT: Another good point about those lifeforms and the benefits for them. Too many possibilities!

Modifié par frypan, 01 juin 2012 - 06:59 .

[edisnooM]

@frypan

I find the idea of the baby Reaper in a conspicuously large moustache trying to be nonchalant incredibly amusing.

On the topic of the Prothean Reaper war, it seems like there is some differences between what Vigil said and what Javik said. With Vigil it seemed like the relays were still functioning and I thought he mentioned something about taking in refugees from other systems.

@Seijin8

When Sovereign took the Citadel he closed the relays, and then Shepard re-opened them. So unless it got locked in the on position (entirely possible) that function should still work.

Also in regards to your last post, interesting idea. Are you thinking maybe a synthetic red-herring?

[Seijin8]

Well, the Thorian in ME1 was a "survivor" of the Prothean's cycle, but we don't really know if it was ever targeted by the Reapers. It is possible that they were aware of it and simply didn't perceive the big plant as a likely candidate for generating a technological singularity. Given that it took the Thorian 50K years to spread across any measure of Feros, it is possible that other lifeforms in the ME universe are on evolutionary scales that seem slow to us. If our own rate of growth is an anomaly (strongly hinted at when you consider the state of the Citadel races over the last 2500 years), then the 50K cycle seems more reasonable, and this again elevates the danger that humans represent to the Reapers. Beyond any "genetic diversity" nonsense, humanity may be interesting to the Reapers (and thus worthy of ascension) because of the rapidity of our technological growth.

[Seijin8]

@edisnooM: I was not in fact considering the red-herring. My thought was that the Thorian presents an alternative lifeform consideration that likely would not be targeted by the Reapers, and if the big creeper isn't a target, then what other bizzarrities are out there?

[edisnooM]

@Seijin8

I think the Thorian was established over 50K years ago though since it absorbed the Protheans from the colony. Now when that event took place, before, during, or after the Reaper war I don't know.

I read a interesting article a while ago that suggested there might be a connection between the Thorian and the Reapers, given the similarities in appearance (the eyes and tendrils mainly), the similarities between creepers and husks, and similarities between thralldom and indoctrination. Also it's use of the term of cycle.

Probably nothing but it was an interesting read.

Modifié par edisnooM, 01 juin 2012 - 07:17 .

[KitaSaturnyne]

edisnooM wrote...

When Sovereign took the Citadel he closed the relays, and then Shepard re-opened them. So unless it got locked in the on position (entirely possible) that function should still work.

I wonder if that makes the Citadel the key to the mass relay network... which would make it, sensibly, the best first target for the Reapers to hit.

[Seijin8]

[Response to edisnooM's post]

Yeah, its tough with this kind of science fiction to link the appearance as any kind of proof, since games like this shoot for a particular aesthetic. The same team and artists designed both, so a similarity should be expected.

On the other hand, the Reapers may have been created by a Thorian-type species that didn't want potential future thralls to develop the capacity to fight against it, and also didn't want those thralls creating something that it couldn't absorb and control (synthetics). Makes sense that its solution would have the dual purpose of culling the most dangerous while leaving the rest.

Modifié par Seijin8, 01 juin 2012 - 07:22 .

[Hawk227]

All I have to contribute at this point are a couple minor lore corrections.

@Kita

When Shepard defeated Sovereign cybernetics version of Saren, Sovereign the Reaper version shuts down and releases the tower. By killing Sovereign/Saren, it incapacitated Sovereign/Reaper to the point that he was easily finished off by the Normandy. The codex emphasizes this significance by saying that the Reapers learned of this weakness and corrected for it.

@edisnooM

Vigil says that when the Reapers took the Citadel, they had control of the relays as well as all the information they needed on Prothean civilization. They shut off the relays and all systems were isolated from each other. It was actually Javik (or Vendetta?) who talked about taking in indoctrinated refugees, but I'm not sure he specified that they were from other systems. Maybe just other planets. Maybe the same planet?

@Seijin8

What would be a third form of life? Organic just means chemically based, specifically Carbon-based. There's reason to believe we could have silicon based life (it has similar reactivity to Carbon), though I'm not sure how literally "organic life" is being mentioned in universe. It's possible it just means chemically based (rather than electronically based).

I also think its reasonable that the Reapers are traveling between galaxies. The cycle is 50k years, but it would only take them ~250 years to get to Andromeda from the Milky Way. They could be bouncing from one galaxy to the next (within a small area of the universe).

[edisnooM]

@KitaSaturnyne

And why they didn't is a cause of no end of confusion.

It was very sporting of them to give us a chance to fight back though. :-)


@Hawk227

Ah, thanks for correcting that for me. Guess it's time for a refresher playthrough. 

Modifié par edisnooM, 01 juin 2012 - 07:25 .

[KitaSaturnyne]

@Hawk227

Indeed. But still. Shepard didn't get out into the vacuum and kill Sovereign himself. He simply allowed for Sovereign to be destroyed. I realize I'm being horrendously pedantic, but it's still a sticking point with me. They make it sound like it was all Shepard. It's like crediting Luke or Han for the destruction of the second Death Star.

@Mani Mani

Indeed. Everything we know about their harvesting MO (however little) points to the fact that the Citadel is always the first to go. The Reapers come in, reclaim it and probably use it to shut down the relay network. Then, it's a good old-fashioned harvesting over at Harby's! Yeeeeeee-HOO!

[Seijin8]

Hawk227 wrote...

What would be a third form of life? Organic just means chemically based, specifically Carbon-based. There's reason to believe we could have silicon based life (it has similar reactivity to Carbon), though I'm not sure how literally "organic life" is being mentioned in universe. It's possible it just means chemically based (rather than electronically based).

Well, the cop-out answer would be: "something else... something... spooky."

But in my own attempts at sci-fi, I've had to deal with the Fermi Paradox, same as everyone else.  My solutions to this were twofold:  1) Given that predatory species are far more likely to generate advanced technologies than prey species, anything in space may not want to be discovered, and thus "we don't see them because they are hiding."

And #2 (which is more relevant to our discussion here), that we as humans have no idea what the heck life even looks like.  We are being steadily bombarded by spaceborne messages from other civilizations saying "Hi!  We're here!  Speak back to us!" but are so insistent on hearing signals in a particular way on a particular wavelength and formatted into a mathematically precise pattern, that we are oblivious to the sheer volume of other types of life.

Gas cloud organisms on Jupiter have been kind enough to throw up a giant red blotch for us to see, and are getting frustrated that we haven't made something similar to signal back.  (The correct answer is TWO blotches of our own, so they know we're intelligent enough to add 1+1).  The architect hives living beneath the surface of Mars keep making valley roads appear every few dozen spins around the sun, and we still haven't gotten back to them.  Its like we're actively ignoring all of them.  What a bunch of a-holes we are down on Earth

Our current definitions of life are completely inadequate for understanding the myriad ways that other forms could arise.  At best, we are highlighting a very particular strain of species that are likely to develop along a very particular technological format, and use similar tools.

We don't see other life because we can't see the forest through the trees

But that's just my take on sci-fi in general, and has little bearing on the ME universe as it has been presented to us.

But at least the Thorian shows someone in the BW office was thinking outside the box... or trying to shoe Invasion of the Body Snatchers in beside Aliens and The Terminator.

[Hawk227]

@Kita

Well, He did 90% of the work. That's not enough?

As for the Citadel/Relays... It's been postulated by others that now that Shepard (and everyone else*) has the reaper IFF, that the Reapers can't effectively shut down the relays because the IFF will just circumvent that? I think that's plausible. But I also think it's moot. If they took the Citadel and shut down the relays, the game would be 45 minutes long. They can't be allowed to do so, simply for the sake of the game.

* The Codex says something about the Salarians using/researching the IFF.... I'm pretty sure.

@Seijin8

I guess I kind of confused my own point. What I meant was that we have chemically based life, and can imagine electronically based (synthetic) life. When I think organic, I think chemically based (rather than carbon based). The universe operates solely on physics. Chemistry is more complicated physics, and biology is more complicated Chemistry. I'm confusing my point again I'm afraid. Life as we know it is very finely defined by Carbon (and nucleic acid) and there are any number of other chemical frameworks (silicon for starters) that could be the foundation for life. But is there anything that requires neither chemistry nor electronics to be alive. I can't imagine such a thing.

Modifié par Hawk227, 01 juin 2012 - 07:47 .

[KitaSaturnyne]

@Hawk227

Sure it is. But wouldn't it be more accurate to say that he enabled the fleets to destroy Sovereign, rather than just blanketing over it with "Shepard destroyed Sovereign, all by himself, go Shepard"?

As for the IFF thing, I could see that, but the IFF would only conceivably work if the relays are on. Everyone uses the term "shutting down", which infers that the relays are not active.

[frypan]

@Seijin8

Actually, its the Kirk Paradox - we can only communicate with species we can jump in the sack with. If its not hot to someone, it can't be understood. That's also what Sovereign meant when it said the Reapers are beyond our comprehension.

Frivolity hat off now.

@Hawk227

I think David Brin tackled a few ideas - one that springs to mind are the plasma/magnetic based lifeforms in Sundiver.

Modifié par frypan, 01 juin 2012 - 07:51 .

[Hawk227]

@kita

Eh, semantics.

People say "shutting down" but I don't think anything in game says that. Vigil says that the Reapers gained control of the relays, and transportation was crippled and all systems were isolated. It could well mean that they are just closed off to anything but Reapers (after all, the Reapers move between systems). With the IFF, the opposition fleet looks like a Reaper and can pass through. But my second point (about authorial license to prevent the 45min game) stands.

EDIT: spelling.

Modifié par Hawk227, 01 juin 2012 - 07:56 .

[KitaSaturnyne]

Important semantics. Hehe

I'm not sure the game is much longer than 45 minutes! I kid, of course.

[Seijin8]

@Frypan

Exactly! Hot or not = alive or not.

@Hawk227

I get where you are coming from that life (as we understand it) must arise from chemistry or electrical signals, but with physics as a starting point, why not neutrino-based life? When we divorce ourselves from the need for a given structure or scale for life, we become open to options that defy our expectations. Could a lightning bolt be intelligent and self-aware? Not every lightning bolt, but just one in a million... how the hell would we even know? It might be furiously trying to communicate before its own inevitable end, strobing out Grand Unified Theory to us knuckleheads who haven't the needed communications apparatus to understand it.

And it isn't that I think humanity is singularly retarded in this sense, just that a much more varied notion of life means that every form of life may be similarly myopic in its own definitions.

Our own attempts at signaling are mathematical and sent via electromagnetic spectrum, but we are presently incapble of receiving an identically formatted message with gravitons, neutrinos or tachyons as the transmission medium.

Hell, all of the seemingly bizzarre world of quantum mechanics may be nothing more than a sub-atomic intelligence trying its damndest to poke at us enough to gain our attention. "No sh*t it doesn't make sense! That's the point! Make it make sense so we can start to communicate!"

Beyond all of that... what kind of meaningful conversation could we even have with a lightning bolt or subatomic intellect?

[KitaSaturnyne]

A lot of people have been hugged by lightning bolts. It didn't end well.

[Seijin8]

KitaSaturnyne wrote...

A lot of people have been hugged by lightning bolts. It didn't end well.

Only by the lightning bolts that were trying to send a message.

We're just not ready for their wisdom  

Modifié par Seijin8, 01 juin 2012 - 08:12 .