5087 réponses à ce sujet

[KitaSaturnyne]

You know what game does a really great job of being meta-textual? Max Payne. The difference is that it sets up its meta-textual tendencies early on in the story, and it continues even more strongly in Max Payne 2. As for 3, I swear delta_vee, that I'll get to it as soon as I finish the first two. I'm almost through the first.

If Mass Effect 3 was going for the meta-textual sort of reference, it was simply a bad idea from the start, since the game never set itself up as a story that reached outside of its own bounds. It was all about the galaxy in the game from the start, and that was that.

Even now, people keep bringing up BioWare's ill-fated "artistic integrity" defense, but I've not heard one word from BioWare what their intent as artists was. I am, in the very least, glad that they realized whatever they were attempting failed. It's a much better sign than most of us care to admit.

EDIT: Oh, hell. Well, at least I had something of worth to say this time.

Modifié par KitaSaturnyne, 04 juin 2012 - 04:43 .

[delta_vee]

@Kita

Yeah, Max had that strain of unreliable narration established early and subtly. An internet-friend of mine replayed 1 & 2 in prep for 3, and came to the (better-supported than IT) conclusion that Max was crazy and actually had killed his wife:

http://www.gamefront...-classic-games/

[edisnooM]

@CARL_DF90

Yeah they've only got a few of the comics in audio format but they're pretty good:
koobismo.deviantart.com/gallery/

Edit: Yeah, the Address Unknown bit's in Max Payne 2 were pretty cool. I remember carefully going along, watching for bad guys, and then: "Ooh new episode." 

Oh and @delta_vee cool article. Speculations!

Modifié par edisnooM, 04 juin 2012 - 05:00 .

[KitaSaturnyne]

@delta_vee

Yeah, I'd always suspected that, given Michelle's dialogue during the dream sequences. And when you take into account that both games are told in flashback, they are certainly subject to Max's mental whims and exaggerations. Which is probably quite meta-textual.

I love Address Unknown. I love the reference to it you can find in Alan Wake, speaking of the whole meta-text thing.

Modifié par KitaSaturnyne, 04 juin 2012 - 05:03 .

[delta_vee]

@Kita

The first time I played it, I mostly got the impression Max was something of an abusive husband, only able to express himself through violence (and Chandler-esque noir monologues (fitting for a videogame, eh?)), which exacerbated his guilt over his wife's death. But Phil's piece convinced me otherwise.

@edisnooM

That is how you do equally-valid alternate metatextual readings of a videogame text. Also, I'll point out that Max Payne was doing slow-motion dream sequences before it was cool (in videogames, anyways).

@Dominus Solanum

A) Nice handle.

Welcome.

C) From what I've heard (from Phil (author of that article) especially) is that Rockstar downplayed and/or missed that subtext entirely, instead making Max more of an addict and a dupe. They may have almost succeeded with another subtext about US foreign policy (see http://killscreendai...payne-3-review/) but it seems to be a somewhat different beast.

[KitaSaturnyne]

delta_vee wrote...

@Kita

The first time I played it, I mostly got the impression Max was something of an abusive husband, only able to express himself through violence (and Chandler-esque noir monologues (fitting for a videogame, eh?)), which exacerbated his guilt over his wife's death. But Phil's piece convinced me otherwise.

It's certainly a compelling idea, and while I suspect it often, I think there comes a point where we have to stop second guessing everything we're being told during these stories. As such, I think Max is just as he's presented in the opening to the first one: A loving husband who lost his wife and child at the hands of an evil witch.

I wonder if Address Unknown is more of an outlet for the "what if Max is insane" idea, keeping it self-contained and separate from the main storyline?

[drayfish]

Wow. Thanks for the link delta_vee, facinating stuff.

I loved Max Payne (the first - sad to say I haven't played the second), but I forgot about those intertextual references. I always remember the dream sequences with the blood trail and the looping memory of the murder scene, but forgot the 'You're in a graphic novel...'; 'You're in a videogame...' stuff when he's tripping.

Again, I haven't seen the second game, but do you think that they kept the 'Address Unknown' stuff peripheral as a form of meta-reflection, KitaSaturnyne? Max may not have killed his wife, but he's perhaps (at least subconsciously) starting to think he did, muddled up in his usual cocktail of alcohol, painkillers and regret? That's certanly a central noir trope: can I even trust what I think is reality anymore? Or do you get the sense that it's more of a generic background flavour?


EDIT: Sorry, I just realised that you've pretty much already answered my question above.

Modifié par drayfish, 04 juin 2012 - 05:54 .

[delta_vee]

If I can blather on at some length about videogame dream sequences:

I know of all the speculations of IT about the dreams in ME3, but quite frankly I was outright disappointed in them more than anything. Dreams in more traditional, straightforward media are both common enough to incite a certain derision and often a sledgehammer for the author to get symbolic and "meaningful" in a heavy-handed manner. Dream logic, though, presents videogames with a wonderful opportunity to mess with the player's experience without damaging the literal nature of the remainder of the narrative, both through the nature of the interface screw and the opportunity to present flashbacks and other nonlinear elements without damaging the player-avatar relationship (except when it's done on purpose - see Max Payne).

Max Payne, as we've been discussing, gives us dreams of running in slow motion through Max's house, engulfed in flames, listening to voicemails from his dead wife pleading with him, tiptoeing along blood trails in a black void, and allowing Max to call out his meta-existence in comic and videogame form.

Marathon: Infinity gave us dreams as different versions of the same level, populated with terminals full of surrealist ramblings, and allowing us access to previous paths (since the game featured parallel realities rather heavily, this was an interesting literalization of the concept).

And then there's Arkham Asylum, which I've referenced before. This is home to the (in)famous sequence where the game seemingly resets, only to replay the intro with Batman and Joker's roles reversed. It ends with Joker pointing a gun at a restrained Batman, and the game prompting the player to move the "middle stick" (I forget the PC equivalent). Then you die, and both "retry" and "quit" options bring you to the next sequence.

Mass Effect had so much to draw on here. It could have given us Virmire again, with all three options on the wheel being to save whomever you sacrificed earlier - or perhaps better yet, given us the option to save both which we didn't have the first time around. It could've given us any number of decisions we'd already made, and forced us to watch the opposite result. It could've given us a Normandy full of indoctrinated allies, all speaking Harbinger's words.

We chased that damned kid through a forest instead. To quote Deus Ex: what a shame.

Modifié par delta_vee, 04 juin 2012 - 06:02 .

[frypan]

If I might add to the tools available for dreams, there are some useful methods to indicate mental shenanigans. One that immediately springs to mind is Cthulu, Dark Corners of the Earth, a rough diamond of a game, but with a real sense of control being wrested from the player when faced with ancient, powerful beings. The mechanics for going insane, with the shaking and sound feedback, were well handled and made part of the experience early on so players were aware of it.

I'm sure there are other examples (apart from the obvious Bioshock) as well.

Modifié par frypan, 04 juin 2012 - 06:09 .

[edisnooM]

I think I'm leaning more towards the mentally unbalanced, chemically dependent, guilt ridden aspect of Max Payne as opposed to the clinically insane, murderous view. That said though the theory presented in that article is pretty cool.

And on the topic of dreams in games, if I remember correctly in Eternal Darkness at the very beginning you find your self playing as the main character in a sepia toned room with a shotgun. This is before you know the controls or have done anything yet, you are then suddenly beset upon by endless waves of enemies, you can survive briefly but despite your best efforts you die in the very first moments of the game, and your character then awakes sharply.

Once you know it's coming, and you know how to control the character it's not so bad, but the first time I played I thought it was very effective.

[drayfish]

@ delta_vee:

Agreed.

Although I like KitaSaturnyne's earlier description of the forest Shepard runs through as a dark, primitive, wildness of the subconscious (I hope I haven't mangled your sentiment there, Kita), I would have loved to have seen some alternate takes too, if that was really what the designers were attmpting to do. Your descriptions of some alternates are quite thrilling - to linger in some of the genuine decisions that Shepard has had to make (rather than Ducty, the duct-kid, who couldn't be saved anyway), would have been truly haunting.

I've heard many people call out the Scarecrow dream/hallucinogenic sequences in Arkham Asylum as being some of their favourite moments of the game (I was a little apathetic about the platforming sections with the giant scarecrow, climbing toward the light) but I did love the sequence in the museum where the hallway slowly flickers and mutates into the rain swept Crime Alley. That was lovely, and an exquisite subversion of the player's expectation. And once again, I had forgotten that magnificent fakeout you mention with the failstate 'restart'. What a brilliant mindscrew.




(Also, and I say this from the very core of my being, from everything that defines me as a sentient functioning human being: Yay! Batman!)

Modifié par drayfish, 04 juin 2012 - 06:20 .

[frypan]

@KIta

Having never played Max Payne (a huge gap in my experience clearly) I'd be interested to hear how you find going back to the first two and the technical/graphics side.

@Delta Vee

I forgot Arkham Asylum, that sequence was very well done. It would have been interesting to see something like it in ME3 at the end, if we had to have an indoctrination sequence, or at least an attempt to indoctinate Shepherd.

I find it interesting that the devs chose some odd linear/limiited control sequences (The final run, the slow motion Marauder Shields sequence) but struggled with the mechanics of indoctrination. While the above two were not really needed, a scene with Shepherd resisting would have been much more thematically powerful.

Play the game poorly enough and boom, Shep either becomes a thrall if renegade, or if paragon offs himself like Saren did.

[delta_vee]

@edisnooM

I haven't actually played Eternal Darkness, but I've heard its legend. Then again, as you point out, it established itself as a thoroughly metatexual, fourth-wall-embracing work from the very beginning.

@drayfish

'Splosions and Batman: everything a growing boy needs. Also, have you read the Grant Morrison Arkham Asylum graphic novel? Excellent stuff, and Morrison's best work (which this is part of) breaks the fourth (and fifth) walls with aplomb.

@frypan

I'm personally at a loss to understand how they couldn't make the indoc mechanics work. Seriously, at the very minimum all they had to do was divorce the dialogue options from the dialogue completely. Remember Benezia's lament about how she watched herself do and say things she didn't intend?

(And off to bed.)

Modifié par delta_vee, 04 juin 2012 - 06:36 .

[frypan]

This is probably a good time to bore you all and mention that the ME dreams I claimed never to have experienced have finally surfaced. This one was of Jack holding a young child in her arms.

Quite moving actually - and an extension of how she was developing in the game.Got me thinking about the kinds of things that would resolved various character stories. Wrex (rebuilding Tuchanka), Tali (Rannoch) and Mirandas father story are all there. But what about the others not given major roles?

Samara, Zaeed, Ash and Katsumi, all need some work. They got their farewell in, but that seemed to be all.

No need to discuss, I'll just go sleep on it and get back to you...

[edisnooM]

I was thinking about the fact that they said they tried to make indoctrination work in gameplay, and I wondered if some of the things that make up the indoctrination theory are things they originally intended for that purpose and didn't take out when they decided they couldn't make it work.

I think that it would be quite ironic (or maybe not? I'm never sure on the use of irony) if indoctrination theory is soundly based on elements that were supposed to be for indoctrination but BioWare didn't remove. It could be right and wrong at the same time, the Schrodinger's Cat of Mass Effect theories.

Edit:

@delta_vee

Re: Eternal Darkness, yeah it was helped along by the fact that it was based heavily on Lovecraft and realms beyond the sight of mortal minds, shifting reality, etc. The secret ending you get if you beat it the three different ways is kind of cool too and does a little fourth wall breaking, I don't want to spoil it for anyone but you can probably find it on youtube or something.

Not that it will make much sense if you haven't played it though. 

Modifié par edisnooM, 04 juin 2012 - 07:02 .

[frypan]

edisnooM wrote...

I was thinking about the fact that they said they tried to make indoctrination work in gameplay, and I wondered if some of the things that make up the indoctrination theory are things they originally intended for that purpose and didn't take out when they decided they couldn't make it work.

I think that it would be quite ironic (or maybe not? I'm never sure on the use of irony) if indoctrination theory is soundly based on elements that were supposed to be for indoctrination but BioWare didn't remove. It could be right and wrong at the same time, the Schrodinger's Cat of Mass Effect theories.

Careful edisnooM, bringing up IT again is a dangerous and wild thing to do. Its a touchy subject, and that's on a forum gone ballistic over the ending!

For the record though, I agree with you that those elements seemed reutilised assets turned into some sort of symbolism, maybe due to budget constraints?

EDIT: You get 2 renegade points for mentioning IT.

EDIT 2: Oops, so do I for a post further up the page.

Modifié par frypan, 04 juin 2012 - 07:02 .

[edisnooM]

@frypan

Sorry, I wasn't really trying to bring back up the IT discussion, just something I thought of on they're decision not to use indoctrination in gameplay. I will take full responsibility if the thread burns down.

Edit: Yeah, you brought it up first. 

Modifié par edisnooM, 04 juin 2012 - 07:08 .

[drayfish]

@ delta_vee: I'm sad to say that I've not yet read Morrison's Arkham Asylum, although I've been chastised many times for this egregious failure...
 
And
 
@ frypan: that dream with Jack sounds extremely beautiful. I've always liked when they show a softer side to Jack, and, as you say, to see her develop through her affection toward her new students, with the support that she (perhaps) found in Shepard's squad (into the suicidal mire only to break through with a new vibrancy for life), that sight of her physically cradling a symbol of a fresh, untarnished future is quite touching. 
 
Zaeed I imagine will open a museum, and be the most annoying curator in history:

Zaeed: 'I see you looking at that grenade there, sonny.'
Patron: 'Oh. No. Actually I just wanted to know where the bathrooms were... '
Zaeed: 'I pried that grenade out of the hands of three separate Vorchas.'
Patron: 'That sounds... fascinating. But the bathrooms were... where?'
Zaeed: 'Pirate clan. We were on a volcano. Flaming ash streaming from the sky. I could barely see what I was stabbing at. So much blood our hands were slick.'
Patron: '...Right. Do you even work here?'
Zaeed: 'I'm going to show you my Jessie.'
Patron: 'I'm calling the police.'


EDIT: I am a moron.

Modifié par drayfish, 04 juin 2012 - 08:16 .

[edisnooM]

@drayfish

I think you mean Zaeed not Thane.

Edit: Very funny though. 

Edit2: You left out: "I was the only one to make it out alive."

Modifié par edisnooM, 04 juin 2012 - 07:24 .

[drayfish]

The shame I feel has no description.

What in the name of brainsplosions was that?



EDIT: ...Thane's future would be the worst DLC in history.

Modifié par drayfish, 04 juin 2012 - 07:30 .

[KitaSaturnyne]

@drayfish

Yeah, I'm thinking it's a nifty little bit of background flavor that reflects the Max Payne 2 story through a distorted mirror. That said, I highly recommend Max Payne 2, even though it's quite a bit shorter than the first game. The theme by Poets of the Fall still brings me to tears.

You didn't mangle my analysis at all. Despite all that I was able to say about them, they're not really well done, nor do they convey much in the way of character development. I just interpreted some of the symbolism.

@frypan

Graphics-wise, it certainly doesn't stack up against current games, but that doesn't mean it's hard to look at. Early 3D games tend not to age well, but I think Max Payne has come to represent a pretty good vintage.

@Mani Mani

Tier, Aretak, Ulyaoth!

[edisnooM]

@drayfish

Doing and saying things you don't intend? Indoctrination! :-)

[drayfish]

I'm not indoctrinated.

This hurts you.


...Me. I mean me. This hurts me.

I mean, BHUEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH!!!

[frypan]

Still hilarious though, took me a while to stop laughing. That's canon if Bioware don't come up with something better.

I warmed to Zaeed after a couple of playthroughs, especially after his tale of the strangling Hanar. He now has a much better ending than the one he envisaged in LOTSB.