5087 réponses à ce sujet

[George-Kinsill]

BigglesFlysAgain wrote...

frypan wrote...



I think the issue is not so much the content of the ending but the very legitimacy that has divided the community. Many don't even accept that these have a place in the game, they are that repugnant.

If it was just a matter of arguing over which choice was best it would be a lot more civilised - we are instead arguing over their right to exist - hence the retake move and such like.Thats got to be a precedent for bad endings.

I know what you mean, people have always debated some of the choices like saving the council or not, and destroying or capturing the collector base ect, (not that they ammounted to much in the end) and while things could get heated I doubt anyone would say that doing one of those things had no logic at all, they were just points of view, but in the case of the endings choosing any of the choices (if you could bare to) can inspire horirfying rage from people on the other side that their choice has no merit whatsoever and they are idiots.

Yes, you are totally correct in your assessment. As if the ending choice debates are not bad enough, the ITers versus anti-ITers are truly horrific. Their name calling, zealousness, hatred and condemnation rivals that of a religious schism. No matter what BioWare does at this point, the EC is going to cause this debate to explode and I am actually worried of the consequences IRL. Whatever BioWare goes with, the consequences will be dire. All of this could have been avoided had they gone with a decent ending and not "speculation for everyone!" 

[Fapmaster5000]

edisnooM wrote...

@delta_vee

I don't think you're alone in not liking any of the endings. I certainly don't like it as is, and since the EC isn't supposed to change anything we'll probably still be presented with the Catalyst and Synthetics vs Organics as apparently the core theme of the story.

What I'm hoping is that if there is perhaps an option or "clarification" where the Geth and EDI don't die in destroy, then I can head-canon the Catalyst away as a rambling madman(boy, hologram, whatever). That's about the best I can think of for "clarification".

Though if the relays are still destroyed that's still a kick in the pants. Maybe that will be "clarified" too.

And I also thought that taking everything I had done from the trilogy (or the important bits) and giving me an ending for my universe would be good. It was implied that was what we would get, not "a bespoke ending that everyone gets". Though I'm not even so opposed to a choice at the end if it made any kind of sense at all.

Ah, but you see, you DIDN'T get a "bespoke ending", since you didn't get an ending.  They were being truthful, but the truth wasn't what we wanted (or expected) to get from that statement.

[edisnooM]

@Fapmaster5000

Ah, good point. Dang loopholes. :-)

[Fapmaster5000]

Just think of Bioware like an evil DM of Monte Cristo, and ME3 was the party casting "Wish".

Hilarity ensued.

[delta_vee]

Everyone here knows "bespoke" means personalized or tailored, right?

I can't tell if the original quote was a misuse of the word, or eerily accurate...

[delta_vee]

George-Kinsill wrote...

No matter what BioWare does at this point, the EC is going to cause this debate to explode and I am actually worried of the consequences IRL. Whatever BioWare goes with, the consequences will be dire. All of this could have been avoided had they gone with a decent ending and not "speculation for everyone!"

Yeah, I'm going to be somewhat reluctant to come back to the boards after the EC drops. I hope this thread will remain as civilized as it has been (and we're one of the longer ones, now that the first indoc thread is gone). I have the sneaking suspicion, though, that I'll be disappointed (again) and be thoroughly done with the whole mess.

[George-Kinsill]

delta_vee wrote...

George-Kinsill wrote...

No matter what BioWare does at this point, the EC is going to cause this debate to explode and I am actually worried of the consequences IRL. Whatever BioWare goes with, the consequences will be dire. All of this could have been avoided had they gone with a decent ending and not "speculation for everyone!"

Yeah, I'm going to be somewhat reluctant to come back to the boards after the EC drops. I hope this thread will remain as civilized as it has been (and we're one of the longer ones, now that the first indoc thread is gone). I have the sneaking suspicion, though, that I'll be disappointed (again) and be thoroughly done with the whole mess.

I really do hope to come on the forums just to see whether the EC is worth playing through Priority Earth again, but I am sure things will be extremely uncivilized, even on this thread. The incoming disaster will destroy all things that we hold dear, this thread included.

[Sable Phoenix]

Oh ye of little faith.

If any thread survives unmoderated, it will be this one.  There are too many intelligent people here.

Modifié par Sable Phoenix, 05 juin 2012 - 04:22 .

[Fapmaster5000]

Modifié par Fapmaster5000, 05 juin 2012 - 04:56 .

[edisnooM]

@delta_vee

It was probably a misuse, although they didn't say who it was personalized for. Could be another loophole. :-)

But it was more the "that everyone gets" that irks me.

[Fapmaster5000]

edisnooM wrote...

@delta_vee

It was probably a misuse, although they didn't say who it was personalized for. Could be another loophole. :-)

But it was more the "that everyone gets" that irks me.

Think about it!  This is an ending that no one 'gets'.  Again, Cassandra truths!

[edisnooM]

Egads, that's a good point. :-)

[drayfish]

* Pretentious Harrumphing Alert: Everyone engage cravats and monocles *
 
I really appreciate what everyone is saying about the dangers of the divisions between fans. It is truly something sad to see, particularly when attached to such a marvellous IP as Mass Effect, and such clearly intelligent, imaginative, articulate supporters. This has got to be (and I'm talking about all of the forum now, not just this marvellous thread) one of the most diverse, exciting collection of minds I've ever seen attached to a fictional universe, and it's a genuine shame to see it choked with needless acrimony.
 
It seems to me that most of the threads that go down in flamewars seem to get mixed up in crazed, bipolar savageries of thought where MINE IS THE ONLY OPINION WORTHY YOU HAVE FAILED RRRAAAARGH!!! Aside from being non-productive, that's so boring. While I admire the inventiveness of the Indoctrination Theory (whether it is reading genuine clues, or making compelling links between some sloppy Bioware production) I must say I do revolt against a subset of its advocates who shout the premise: 'Hey everyone who doesn't agree with me: you failed.' Or with Destruction supporters who call out anyone who chose anything else as advocates of ethnic cleansing. Or Synthesis supporters who call people murderers. Or Control supporters who call me Scrappy Doo, or on and on and on... Boring.
 
I think as long as everyone starts from the launching point that they are but one voice in the multitude, and that everyone has both a right to their viewpoint, and the opportunity to be heard, then genuine and productive discussion will result. That's certainly what I love about you guys and your perspectives. We are but a conclave of subjective opinions, refracting off each other to light the room.
 
To put my own experience in context: I hate with a fiery passion every one of the conclusions – for me and my reading they have no place in my game – but coming into this thread I have gotten to experience the emotional intensity of Optimiskied's choice; the fortitude and conviction of bc525's Malcolm Shepard; been slightly frightened by CulturalGeekGirl's Crow; even had the poetic promise of Synthesis revealed to me (even if I still ideologically and emotionally revolt at the very notion of it). 
 
I think, as Fapmaster5000 and George-Kinsill have said, the current state of infighting is more a product of all of our confusion and bewilderment at the endings we've been delivered – a narrative suspension (rather than resolution), that leaves everyone desperately trying to cling to the scraps of clues we have to reason out its implications. We got dealt a muddled, misleading ending – a conclusion so mangled that even its creators conceded that it needed to be rectified, or 'clarified'.  So yes, until the EC drops no one can objectively say anything; only what they personally feel, and how they personally responded to the stimuli. They certainly should not be accusing or attacking anyone else for their responses to choices that have no context, because at this point, we are almost literally arguing over what was our favourite colour. And mine's yellow!* So until that 4th ending comes out and ruins my sunshiney day, I just welcome the opportunity to have everyone else's perspective help me flesh out the diversity of thought that fans can bring to a text that I think many of us can agree is at best inconclusive.
 
* It's not actually, but still. Primary colours, y'all!
 
 
(* Conceited Alert Over: Return curly moustaches to reception *)
 
Regularly scheduled posting will now resume...

[edisnooM]

@drayfish

Good post.

Also it was hard to fit a monocle on under my glasses, and I really have no idea how to properly wear a cravat but I gave it my best shot. :-)

Edit: Also all the disputes aren't helped by the fact that when there are three humans in a room, there will be six opinions. :-)

Modifié par edisnooM, 05 juin 2012 - 06:27 .

[George-Kinsill]

@Drayfish. You hit it right on the head!

What BioWare needs are endings that reward players choices and not punish them or leave them grasping at emergency induction ports. Many great minds are on BSN and yet now we resort to hurling horrible insults like Scrappy Doo. Oh the humanity!

[KitaSaturnyne]

Bah, tried writing tonight. Failed due to tiredness. That, and I've committed myself to learning the Max Payne theme by rote, so that tune is drowning out any story I may have had to work with earlier.

I guess in a weird way drayfish, you could say that the (non-) ending of ME3 has turned us into a colony of Gollums. Each of us, clinging to our 'precious', lashing at those who would threaten it, but welcoming warmly those who wish to share in its glow. I wonder how far we are from being a colony of slippermen? (Genesis reference, you probably wouldn't get it)

And dammit drayfish, I told you to clean up this word pee!

[frypan]

KitaSaturnyne wrote...

Bah, tried writing tonight. Failed due to tiredness. That, and I've committed myself to learning the Max Payne theme by rote, so that tune is drowning out any story I may have had to work with earlier.

I guess in a weird way drayfish, you could say that the (non-) ending of ME3 has turned us into a colony of Gollums. Each of us, clinging to our 'precious', lashing at those who would threaten it, but welcoming warmly those who wish to share in its glow. I wonder how far we are from being a colony of slippermen? (Genesis reference, you probably wouldn't get it)
!

Creating a noir story as part of a workday musing is pretty impressive and not to be scoffed at, you deserve to have some theme song time. 

I feel more like Gollum sans ring, doggedly hunting that tricksy Bioware who tooks it. I fears that come the EC, I'll finally catch them up - only to fall into mount doom.

But on another note, I'm trying to remember if the endgame conversation with The Illusive Man involved a paragon/renegade interupt or simply red/blue conversation choices. The whole reputation system that was used seemed in my recollection to erode the dichotomy somewhat, but it wasnt too bad overall, I just cant remember how it played out at the end.

It was one thing I thought was done really well in ME2, whether it was booting a merc out a window or giving a hand to a grieving Asari. Can only remember one instance in ME3 though, that mighty renegade interrupt on Kai Leng that was worth the price of admission alone.

The reason I ask is that I've been musing the whole system over, but while I have plenty to drone on about regarding the overall system, the endgame eludes me. Any help or opinions would be appreciated.

In particular, I'd like to know how people felt about the place of such gameplay in a story driven game. ME is a good one as it generally got such things right. The one notable exception was the set of Liara interupts in LOTSB, which were actually quite off putting and detracted from the story. The rest however seemed to smoothly fit into whatever conversation they werre used with - several steps above those used in other games (lookin at you RE4)

If I can give an example, do you think that a high enough paragon/renegade score should allow an interrupt in the final conversation, or should it simply play out based on your score? While a massive decision such as the end choice might be trivialised with such a mechanic, it could also make the resultant feedback so much more satisfying, as was the case with many of the renegade interrupts earlier on.

EDIT: Just remembered shooting Udina - took the renegade option there and I must be one of the few who didnt hate the guy!

Modifié par frypan, 05 juin 2012 - 09:12 .

[Seijin8]

RE:  Dialogue options with TIM

Red interrupt to shoot him if certain non red/blue dialogue options are taken. Curiously, some lines of conversation on Cronos station dictate whether the final red/blue suicide option exists.

Modifié par Seijin8, 05 juin 2012 - 09:24 .

[frypan]

Seijin8 wrote...

RE:  Dialogue options with TIM

Red interrupt to shoot him if certain non red/blue dialogue options are taken. Curiously, some lines of conversation on Cronos station dictate whether the final red/blue suicide option exists.

Thanks - I had no idea of that, especially the Chronos station bit. As a paragon player, I was hoping for the chance to convince him to shoot himself, but that never came up, nor did the option to interrupt and save Anderson. Never understood it as my Paragon was way way high and off the chart in the first two games.

I should probably consult a wiki on this, but there hasnt been a need considering all things...

Whatever the case, the interupts there seem fine in terms of placement, even if I couldnt get them myself. There is plenty of foreshadowing to prepare the player, and this is an instance where they seem to work and even add to the experience.

Contrast other games (again RE4) where they jump out like ninjas unexpectedly and get you killed, or instances in ME2 where they detract from the impact of the conversation (LOTSB) In the latter case, the conversations also came after a particularly challenging boss fight, so if you missed them, it was back to the battle. Nasty.

Am I defending part of the ending here? (harrumphs) Cant have that, jolly bad form.

[Seijin8]

Nah, defending the parts that work well is perfectly good form and shows a measure of objectivity over the whole affair. The inability to admit that any of it was right is where the mindless hate begins.

On a technical/narrative level, the conversation with TIM is iffy, but the dialogue worked for me, so it was a point I could gloss over. And given how I got to that conversation in the first place, even given the circumstances, I was glad for something familiar.

[frypan]

Yeah I wasnt listening too hard to him, I'm not generally open to conversations with people who had goons shooting at me all game. I was waiting for a chance to tell him where to go or take whatever intrerrupt was offered. Only really picked up the general gist of thingsas a result.

While the scene had its issues it wasnt too bad - I never minded the Illusive Man's quasi mentor role and was fine with him popping up for a final showdown. He expressed better the ideas of control vs destroy than Tiny Tim, and it would have been good to have the final affirmation or denial against him if anyone. If we coudnt have Harbinger, or avatars of dead squadmates there, he would have done fine as the means to facilitate the end.

But I digress, the interupts were key, and thinking about the way they integrated with some earlier decisions really suggests the game could have ended right there with that confrontation. Hopefully we'll hear that Sheen gets brought back, that would be encouraging, if difficult for Bioware to do.

[JadedLibertine]

When the writers inflicted Project Lazarus upon us in the first 10 minutes of ME2, I had to consciously suspend my disbelief and think as loudly as I could "SHEPARD IS NOT DEAD, JUST IN A COMA WITH MINIMAL BRAIN ACTIVITY AND THEIR BODY HAS ATROPHIED, THEY ARE JUST USING IT AS A FIGURE OF SPEECH".  From that point onwards I entered into a tacit understanding with BW not to look too closely or think about the main plot as long as in return they give me their old razzle dazzle, amazing settings to explore and great characters to interact with.  And hopefully try to go easy on any future plot twists that may place too much strain on my credulity.  I was delighted that they kept their side of the bargain, it helps that I'm not overly nitpicky and with an imagination that can skip over and around any illogicality and plot hole with the agility of a mountain goat.  

Because of this I always completely misunderstood the end of ME2.  Remember that final image of the Reaper armada in deep space inexorably closing in on us.  I'd assumed every single time that Shepard was looking out of the window at a fleet of Reaper style battleships that humanity was building using information found on the Collectors.   It was going to be so freaking awesome seeing them in epic Reaper space battles and kept wondering why we were never seeing them in ME3.  From now on I will ignore any contrqry evidence and headcanon them into existence.

[KitaSaturnyne]

So, I go to bed and poof. The damned story comes to me. I stayed up all bloody night conceiving a first draft, so after I've had the chance to edit it a few times, add some Max Payne style metaphors, I'll release it into the wild and see what happens. Don't expect anything paradigm changing, or you know, professional, and you'll probably be fine.

@frypan

I love "tricksy BioWare". Interesting take on the Gollum reference. Also, I think the final Paragon/ Renegade options with TIM are only available if you consistently choose them throughout the game. If you consistently pick Paragon options with him during the game, you'll have the chance to Paragon him at the end. Pick Renegade consistently, and poof.

There are no Paragon interrupts, but there's a renegade one. I've never used it, but I think it's just Shepard killing TIM dead.

So now, at 6:30 AM, I retire to sleep. Stupid me.