5087 réponses à ce sujet

[TrulyInnovative]

delta_vee wrote...

I have a shameful, horrible secret: I...I never played P:T. I have it on my hard drive, bought from GOG, ready to go. It's just, well...er...the interface. And the screen res. It's clunky. I'm having a hard, hard time making myself actually play it.

Did you install the mods mentioned in GOG.com? I haven't tried them myself, but they seem to improve the resolution and the UI, among other things. I would recommend sticking with Planescape:Torment through the beginning; it's still my favorite game ever.

[edisnooM]

@Fapmaster5000

Wow, that is an awesome mission idea. If that were in the game it would almost make me want to try playing Renegade.

[Seijin8]

Regarding Bissel's statement on the endings to the effect of "a new one won't wash away the stink of the old ones", the severity of the emotional/narrative disconnect of the endings might actually alleviate the problem.

Since a lot of us felt no connection to the endings as presented (and a sizable chunk of the community felt it must all be a lie), then an EC variation that retained the sense of emotional connection could well overwrite the prior experience. It would never go away, but the emotional residue might be less than it would otherwise.

Regardless, I am willing to try. The longer the silence before any mentioned release date, the more time they are working to repair it, and likely rewrite or re-envision large chunks of it. And that is a good thing.

Modifié par Seijin8, 08 juin 2012 - 08:03 .

[edisnooM]

@Seijin8

Well I for one am willing to pretend it never happened. :-)

There was a thread I saw earlier that mentioned that Gamble had said on twitter that they are planning to talk about and show "stuff" at San Diego Comic Con in July.

I am cautiously optimistic. :-)

Modifié par edisnooM, 08 juin 2012 - 08:21 .

[Seijin8]

Last time Gamble had something cool rumored on twitter, it turned out to be an independent project (I forget the details). Unless he specified ME3, I wouldn't get excited about it.

[edisnooM]

That would be a cruel joke. And yet consistent with the theme thus far. :-(

Edit:

He didn't specify Mass Effect.

Dang.

Modifié par edisnooM, 08 juin 2012 - 08:26 .

[Seijin8]

Doesn't mean it isn't. Just double-down on the *caution* in your optimism

[edisnooM]

Yeah, I'll just dial it up to 11. :-)

[Samuel_Valkyrie]

These days, most people are relatively used to retcons. Not only in the realm of comics, where it is most widely used, but there isn't a single story out there that does not retcon pre-established concepts and events. Lost, Battlestar Galactica, to name a few.

The difference being that these have an episodic format. However, if we take the extended cut as a 'new episode' that retcons, ie add new and/or different interpretations of the final events of the game, the audience would easily accept these as new canon.

In short, no, I don't worry that the EC will diminish the endings, or that it 'won't wash away the stink of the old ones'.

And, yes, I agree that current appreciation of the final events is so low, that expectations are equally low, which, in the expectations-game, you can only go up.

[Seijin8]

@Samuel_Valkyrie: Overall agreed with your perspective, but the expectations part is worrisome, mainly because there are growing "tribal factions" for IT and similar themes that will lose their minds if the EC is presented in a way that invalidates their chosen headcanon.

Managed expectations is a good thing, but the rampant speculation has solidified to the degree that it can be broken badly. It will be interesting to see if/how Bioware juggles these concepts with whatever the EC ends up being.

[frypan]

I think a lot of the fear is that we will play and then experience the same awful feelings we had first time round, something I think might be a bit pessimistic.

Seijin8 is right in that the headcanon issue is a problem, something that may drive folks to the forums in a rage afterwards, but I don't know if anyone but the most close minded will be poo-hooing the thing as they play it. Could be wrong here though.

This time, we are prepared for the possibility of it not working, somthing I doubt anyone was thinking about first time round. Many of us will reach that point in the game with a large sense of awareness that will work against any nasty surprises.

I also think we will tend be in more of an evaluative mood. The tendency will be to assess and rate changes in the game, in comparison to the first experience. Seeing as we have torn to shreds so much of what was originally there - it is possible that any changes will be viewed as a positive thing and the overall experience a good one.

Based on the additional VA work and so forth, I suspect things will actually look good right up until the citadel. Issues with the overall earth mission may not seem so bad and our memory of the poorer moments might even seem a bit harsh.

As to the final moments - therein lies the rub. The only thing I can say is that while people may go ballistic afterwards, for most, the passage of time should have cooled their ardour. I certainly hope it doesnt cause the same level of outrage. Bioware will have at least tried to steer a course through the various demands and issues with the ending, and I doubt they are doing this just so they can say "well we tried" to folks. This is an expensive effort and it would have been simpler to just hammer us with reasons the ending was good first time, if they are simply going to do the same with a bit more information in there.

Whatever happens, I think the general response will be more reasoned and thoughtful, even if it ends up negative. Most folks will be more curious than invested, or at least that is my suspicion. Personally, I'll reserve my ire for Moriarty and the other shonky journalists- if they have the hide to weigh in after their treatment of people this time.

[delta_vee]

@TrulyInnovative

Well, then. There goes my weekend, gobbled up by a floating skull. Thank you.

@Samuel_Valkyrie

If I believed BW will actually do substantial retcons, or if I didn't see so many on these forums (not necessarily this thread, though) pronounce "IT or bust"*, I'd be inclined to agree. But as things stand, I'm not so sure.

* Not everyone in the "IT or bust" camp believes IT was planned, but the common thread seems to be that IT is the best way for Bioware to retcon their way out of the mess. My feelings on the matter are...well documented.

[delta_vee]

And hmmm. A piece today which is quite revealing about Bioware's relationship to EA:

http://www.gamesindu...through-success

Relevant quote:

"Ultimately, EA comes to the BioWare boardroom and says. 'Here is the amount of money you have, and here is the amount of money you need to generate in X years. The way you do it is your problem.'"

Snacks for thought.

[edisnooM]

@delta_vee

Interesting article. On the one hand it's nice that BioWare seems to have a certain amount of autonomy, but on the other it still comes back to the corporate bottom line. I realize that companies need to be profitable to survive, but I'm not sure the best way to produce good games is by putting in X dollars and expecting Y dollars in Z years.

Also another line that caught my eye was:

"And I think it's representative of what gaming is. It's not a two-hour art-form that's imposed upon you. It's interactive, so you're going to have your say on it."

[BigglesFlysAgain]

edisnooM wrote...

@delta_vee

Interesting article. On the one hand it's nice that BioWare seems to have a certain amount of autonomy, but on the other it still comes back to the corporate bottom line. I realize that companies need to be profitable to survive, but I'm not sure the best way to produce good games is by putting in X dollars and expecting Y dollars in Z years.

Also another line that caught my eye was:

"And I think it's representative of what gaming is. It's not a two-hour art-form that's imposed upon you. It's interactive, so you're going to have your say on it."

Some bits of it were not great, but on the whole it seems to be the most sensible thing somone from bioware has said in a while lol

[Ieldra]

delta_vee wrote...

And hmmm. A piece today which is quite revealing about Bioware's relationship to EA:

http://www.gamesindu...through-success

Nice article. This quote gives me some hope for the Extended Cut:

"If someone gives a well thought out criticism, something that is tangible, those are the people that we try to reward as much as possible. And we want to reward them, because that feedback is how we make better games," he says. "On the opposite side, opinion that is too emotional, we won't reward that in the same way. The more you put that as your philosophy, the more you start to have a culture where people are trying to be more analytical with their feedback.

Keep that philosophy, Bioware!

Modifié par Ieldra2, 08 juin 2012 - 08:35 .

[kennydahl]

edisnooM wrote...

@delta_vee

Interesting article. On the one hand it's nice that BioWare seems to have a certain amount of autonomy, but on the other it still comes back to the corporate bottom line. I realize that companies need to be profitable to survive, but I'm not sure the best way to produce good games is by putting in X dollars and expecting Y dollars in Z years.

I'd agree with this...however the only way we'll see change here is by the alternating of more indie (less expensive) games with AAA's that are more guaranteed crowd pleasers.  That way you spread out the risk of your new, creative, output with more of a sure bet.  

Unless you as a company have massive capital stockpiles or an ongoing seperate  cashcow revenue source, you probably need the security of a 'known' thing if you're doing triple A titles.  If the artistic gamble goes wrong...that can be everyone's job on the line... 

[drayfish]

Indeed, thanks for the article delta_vee. Fascinating read. Obviously we're still in a rather nebulous state where we really know nothing definitive, but there are some lovely points in this article that are quite heartening. I particularly respect the (hopefully company-wide) clarification:
 

"Fan feedback and fan reaction has always been really important to us when doing our games, so taking the stance that this is our art is something that Bioware has never done in the past anyway. The further you go into listening to criticism and how you should change, and you take that to its extreme, you will start to lose your vision and your integrity. But we're not taking that road.

This is more in line with the Bioware that I had come to respect and love, the Bioware that it sounds like populated this forum until the unfortunate events of the past few months spooled out and epithets like 'artistic integrity' began being misapplied on all sides of the debate. 
 
 
...Although I should say I am about the RAGE, and RAGE HARD! I'm pissed and I'm going to TELL EVERYBODY ABOUT IT! I'm going to USE CAPITAL LETTERS and have EXAGERATED PUNCTUATION!!!#!!!, also inexplicably a smiley face (), that's how angry I am – because I am being dragged away from the forums for the weekend. 
 
(* sound of crickets as no one cares *)
 
Well fine! But I do want to say that I will miss following this marvellous thread for the next couple of days, and look forward the catching back up on Monday.  I will be excited to see, as always, where the discussion goes.

Modifié par drayfish, 08 juin 2012 - 11:09 .

[edisnooM]

@drayfish

We'll try to keep the thread from burning down or dying in your absence.

Enjoy your weekend and if you're doing something outdoors try not to get killed by all the delightful wildlife you have down there. :-)

[Seijin8]

Yeah, short of adding velociraptors, its tough to picture Australian wildlife being more bizzarre or dangerous. Well, then theres all the rabbits, heheh.

[edisnooM]

I'm not going up against any rabbit unless I've got a Holy Hand Grenade. :-)

[delta_vee]

@drayfish

Enjoy the weekend. Traitor. We shall burn you in effigy. >:]

@kennydahl

I'd agree with this...however the only way we'll see change here is by the alternating of more indie (less expensive) games with AAA's that are more guaranteed crowd pleasers. That way you spread out the risk of your new, creative, output with more of a sure bet.

That sounds to me like a very Hollywood model, at least for the top-end directors and their associated infrastructure. Christopher Nolan's movies follow that pattern quite closely (with the exception of Inception, which didn't make Batman money, but certainly paid for itself quite handsomely). The more sustainable model seems to me to be the mid-level, smaller-budget, more niche films, which are never blockbusters but never cost that much to begin with - and here I'll draw the comparison to the better-funded end of the indie spectrum and the smaller side of the AAA scene (think From Software and Dark Souls, or whatever Mojang is turning into post-Minecraft). This is the area Bioware comes from, and I suspect it's part of the reason some portions of the fanbase believe they've sold out or forgotten their core fans (I don't necessarily agree, but I would say the transition has been...rocky).

Unless you as a company have massive capital stockpiles or an ongoing seperate cashcow revenue source, you probably need the security of a 'known' thing if you're doing triple A titles. If the artistic gamble goes wrong...that can be everyone's job on the line...

With DA2's failure, ME3's whatever-this-is, and SW:TOR bleeding subscribers, I think they're feeling something of a pinch right now.

[Fapmaster5000]

@delta_vee

Very interesting article. I'm just going to join with the choir here, and state how hopeful I am about some of the points, and how concerned (in a good, "uh-oh, hope they pull through" kind of way) about the "artistic gamble gone wrong" line and it's associated fallout.

@drayfish

Enjoy your weekend out in the sticks. Remember, don't feed the wild animals, and if you must, don't use your face to do so.

-Solid Advice

[delta_vee]

@Seijin8

[begin DinosaurGeekBlock]

Ahem.

It's Deinonychus you're thinking of, not Velociraptor. And even they might be too small to be much of a threat, considering the evidence of actual pack hunting is scarce and unreliable. Perhaps Utahraptor would be a more...worthy addition.

[end DinosaurGeekBlock]

Sorry 'bout that. It comes up every now and then, like phlegm.

@Fapmaster5000

Yeah, some points gave me some hope that Bioware's corporate culture might actually be relatively responsive. Then again, given what they're working with, I remain cynical. Expect the worst, and all that. I certainly found the EA-Bioware relationship to be (described as) open enough that the usual cries of "EA ruined ME!" to be inaccurate at best. I've pretty much always thought it was Bioware's game to win or lose.

I'll also point out that "artistic integrity" was bandied about by pundits and lofty critics such as Monsieur Moriarty long before Dr. Ray put forth the line. I suspect (most of) the gaming press' reaction actually hamstrung Bioware's response more than their own internal vision.

[frypan]

That puts an interesting perspective on some of the decisions I thought were EA influenced, namely the mass appeal/microtransaction aspects. I initialy thought these might have been imposed from above, but if they are Bioware's solution to the need for more money, then fair enough. I disagree with the decision on various grounds, but at least it was theirs to make.

Decisions like the Cerberus missions and so forth, that I believe detracted from the game, were part of their philosophy. Its not good, but like the ending, if they are calling the shots they have a lot of leeway to fix or adjust them.

I'm specifically thinking of the MP effect on the endings. That seems to have been poorly received, while not receiving particular priase from the MP crowd. I havent seen any MP posts stating how good it was to have their co-op game raise the EMS score. Based on that, maybe Bioware will isolate the two components, recognising that the whole EMS aspect was a nice try but not successful. Give MP players their shooter, they don't, as far as I can tell, need to have it reflected in the SP game. SP players like myself will in turn not feel like we are being compelled to play MP.

Oh, and for everyody's elucidation, Australia may not have bears and wolves and the like, but look up the list of deadliest snakes and spiders in the world. Funnelwebs, redbacks, brown and red belly black snakes, we have loads of them right in our backyards.

Drayfish is in genuine peril, but as a fellow Aussie they should know better than to do anything outdoorsy....except surf....and then there's the sharks, box jellyfish, bluebottles...actually I take it back. Stay indoors, and let sloth and indolence be thy end.

EDIT: Can I just say that thanks to the ME3 situation my favourites list is out of control. How on earth am I going to organise them all? And that is before looking at the last few pages of recommended links.

Modifié par frypan, 09 juin 2012 - 12:43 .