5087 réponses à ce sujet

[Hawk227]

I think we actually have a decent amount of information on indoctrination. On Virmire, Lana Thanoptis talks about how its some electro-magnetic signal that affects the limbic system. The survivors on Eden Prime mention a loud screeching noise coming from within their own head. It isn't just  some ambient effect of Reapers (although on some level it may be), because they can alter its strength. For cannon fodder, they can do fast indoctrination that drives the victims insane (salarians on virmire), or they can do slow indoctrination that subtly changes the victims mindset (Saren and TIM).

Also, there were indoctrinated Batarians from the Leviathon of Dis. When confronting Balak, he talks about how they found it and their scientists were studying it to gain an advantage in the Galaxy, but they all became indoctrinated and played a significant role in softening up the Hegemony as the Reapers arrived from dark space.

I always assumed the dead ME2 Reaper still indoctrinated the Cerberus scientists because it wasn't totally dead. It's Mass Effect core was still powered up and functional, I always imagined it as a brain dead Reaper. It's higher level cognitive functions were dead, but its lower level autonomic functions were still intact.

Also, Arrival wasn't the first place to see a non-Reaper indoctrinate. Numerous ME1 era sidequests had us stumble on planets were Scientists found mysterious artifacts and had become husks. They didn't just throw themselves on the Dragons Teeth, I always figured they were indoctrinated into doing it. Even if you don't count that, there was at least one sidequest in ME2 (on Aequitas in Minos Wasteland) where we stumbled on a Reaper artifact and a bunch of husks. The datapad entries follow the scientist from wanting to sell the artifact for megabucks, into not wanting to part from it.

I thought the Reaper IFF was software, we seemed to download it from Reaper. I'm pretty sure (could be wrong) that the Codex in ME3 talks about the Salarians (and other council races) studying and adapting the IFF for their use. If it is software, I don't think it would necessarily indoctrinate, and I don't see why it wouldn't still be on the Normandy, but who knows for sure?

EDIT: This is funny. I was just musing to myself earlier that I hadn't been top of the page in quite a while, and that I must be doing something right. I guess I jinxed myself.

Modifié par Hawk227, 19 juin 2012 - 07:59 .

[Seijin8]

I always thought the derelict Reaper being dead and still having such an effect was far more interesting than it being "mostly dead" (Billy Crystal voice).

And my take on the Reaper IFF is that it was just like any other IFF mechanisms. It is just a communication device, and the "IFF" is actually the signal/handshake, and nothing to do with Reaper tech at all.

Also, I never thought that the Collectors actually possessed Reaper tech, nor that their own tech could be capable of indoctrination. The Reapers seem to only convert existing materials/beings to what they need, and rarely "supply" anything, possibly fearing reverse-engineering, or they may have no capacity to easily recreate lost equipment. (Odd thought to add a 40K lost tech element to the Reapers.)

[CulturalGeekGirl]

I think delta_vee may have been referring to Arrival's general inherent terribleness when he said "which is where so much went downhill so fast": the sad, solitary gameplay, lack of meaningful squad interaction, and dull, ineffectual Shepard who displayed no reaction whatsoever to what he was just forced to do.

The funny thing is, I had a lot to say about the awfulness of Arrival when it came out. I tried to write a more even-handed, unemotional review on my old blarg, but man - I hated that thing as much or more than I hated the ME3 endings. A lot of people had a lot to say about how bad and lonely and unfulfilling and nihilistic and wretched that DLC felt - only to see pretty much all the things I hated about it echoed and refined in the ME3 ending.

Edit: and regarding the Leviathan of Dis, yes I remembered Balak mentioning it, my question was why it hadn't happened earlier... in the ME1 or ME2 era. There were a lot of times in ME2 where it would have been super useful to the Reapers if indoctrinated Batarians helped them out.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 19 juin 2012 - 08:10 .

[Seijin8]

Yes, it was a poor DLC, as bad as Firewalker IMO, though preferable since Shepard can take more damage than the Hammerhead, and can make a save game, too!

But in comparison to any other DLC for ME2, yeah, The Arrival was bollocks.

[Hawk227]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Edit: and regarding the Leviathan of Dis, yes I remembered Balak mentioning it, my question was why it hadn't happened earlier... in the ME1 or ME2 era. There were a lot of times in ME2 where it would have been super useful to the Reapers if indoctrinated Batarians helped them out.

I didn't know the timeline of it. I had assumed incorrectly that it was a relatively new find (during or after ME2 events).

With that said, I've got a couple guesses. It was pretty top top secret, so few Batarians actually had access to it, and thus not many actual victims to indoctrinate. Those that did stayed close to the project and the hegemony in particular. Alternatively, Balak says the indoctrination started when they activated it, maybe they just didn't actually activate it until closer to the events of ME3?

[CulturalGeekGirl]

"Hey, we just stole an incredibly advanced mystery ship from the Salarians. What should we do with it?"
"I unno. Let's toss it into a warehouse and forget about it."
"Sounds good."

All kidding aside, sure there are plausible explanations... my point in asking the question isn't to say "this is a plot hole!" it's to say "If I knew for sure what the answer to this question was, I'd be able to better theorize about how indoctrination actually works." I mean, you say maybe they didn't "activate" it... what does being near a reaper that isn't "active" mean? What kind of "activating" might they have done?

I know people on the boards usually ask questions like this in some kind of condescending attempt to say "lol, plotholes" or whatever, but that's not my aim. I'm not saying "Bioware is logically inconsistent because of ____." Rather, there are several possible explainations for ____, all plausible, which have radically different implications for the topic we're discussing, which makes it impossible to construct a "best" theory.

[Sable Phoenix]

The Leviathan of Dis was appropriated by the Batarians twenty years before the events of ME1, at least according to the planet description text of Jartar.

I thought it was strongly implied from Balak's dialogue in ME3 that the Leviathan was one of the driving forces behind the secession of the Batarian Hegemony from the greater galactic society.

I think it would've been far more interesting if the Leviathan had been another race's gigantic starship that would've played a role in the defeat of the Reapers in ME3, like everyone was speculating.

Modifié par Sable Phoenix, 19 juin 2012 - 09:17 .

[CulturalGeekGirl]

I thought the Batarians withdrew from the rest of galactic society because they were slave-trading jerks who had slavery as an intrinsic part of their society and who kept screwing with other peoples' colonies. When galactic society decided they liked humans better, Batarians took their ball and went home, so to speak.

What I thought Balak's convo in ME3 implied was that the events of Arrival made the Batarians double down on this whole Leviathan of Dis thing, which made them go crazy nuts. Without Arrival driving their research, they would have possibly been able to resist the Reapers in some way.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 19 juin 2012 - 09:26 .

[BigglesFlysAgain]

I think the reverse engineered thanix cannon just really took the concept of the projected hot metal beam and did not just copy the reaper version piece for piece, given that replicated ones seem to fire "blue" beams, yet it could just be some mindless "good guys" fire blue lazer, "bad guys" fire red lazer from children's cartoon though.


Given that nearly all the non Cerberus owned reaper tech was taken from sovereign, and there is no evidence that oracles took part in the battle for the citadel, we can't know if anyone had access to one for long enough to reverse engineer it, and while it was effective against a frigate, we don't know how they would fare against a more heavily armored reaper, and if an effective control system could be developed for them that could withstand reaper jamming.

[Sable Phoenix]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

I thought the Batarians withdrew from the rest of galactic society because they were slave-trading jerks who had slavery as an intrinsic part of their society and who kept screwing with other peoples' colonies. When galactic society decided they liked humans better, Batarians took their ball and went home, so to speak.

What I thought Balak's convo in ME3 implied was that the events of Arrival made the Batarians double down on this whole Leviathan of Dis thing, which made them go crazy nuts. Without Arrival driving their research, they would have possibly been able to resist the Reapers in some way.

Well I did only play the game through one time, so my recollection of the dialogue is not the most reliable source.  Actually your explnation sounds more plausible (altough one wonders what they were doing with the ship for the 22 years prior).

Still would have been better to make it some other race's ship, in my opinion.

[delta_vee]

Seijin8 wrote...

And you are right; I had forgotten about ME1's explanations for indoc, though these seem incomplete for detailing many of the effects we have seen. Still, it is true that creating new machanisms is a poor substitute for adapting existing theories/explanations.

Hmm. I'm not so sure the ME1 explanation is insufficient. If you'll permit me some (paratextual) extrapolations:

(Note - all of the below assume human neurology and sufficiently advanced neurotech.)

The first major target of a limbic system attack would probably be the hippocampus, which is a major part of the limbic system and is thought to be important in inhibition and memory functions. It also seems to play a role in inducing long-term potentiation states, which would be required for any subsequent alterations. Damage to the hippocampus also can result in loss or change to declarative memories (facts, events, etc) while leaving procedural memories (motor or cognitive skills) intact - this lines up with the Cerberus science team's experience aboard the dead Reaper.

The next target would be the orbitofrontal cortex, which is involved with sensory integration, emotional regulation, and the emotional component of reward expectation (in the context of decision-making process). Subverting this section would allow for changing the relative emotional reinforcement values used in the decision process - a key requirement of indoctrination as explained by Benezia and Saren ("is slavery not preferable to extinction?") The orbitofrontal cortex is considered by many to be a part of the limbic system, so any attack using that vector could conceivably target this location as well.

The real prize, though, is the ventromedial prefrontal cortex; the orbitofrontal cortex is sometimes considered a subsection of the vmPFC, so I believe a sufficiently sophisticated attack can target the larger section through the smaller one. This section is implicated in higher-level decision-making, such as social or probablistic scenarios, and the right half of the vmPFC is associated with empathic responses, cognition, and preference judgement - possibly being key to the sense of self. Subverting this area would constitute complete control over the long-term goals of the target, and possibly lead to the sense of dissociation of self experienced by Benezia, Saren, and even TIM at the end. I suppose the faster version of the attack would omit this third step, instead merely disconnecting the vmPFC from its role in decision-making; but if time is sufficient, the benefits of controlling the target's vmPFC seem worth the investment (not to mention consistent with the victims of high-level indoctrination we encounter).

TL;DR - I thought the limbic-system subversion was brilliant, and I think it's at least somewhat supported by neurology - at least close enough to explain the range of symptoms we see in-game.

Now, all that said - such a technique would have to be modified on the fly for each target, and redesigned from scratch for each species' neural structure. I imagine, given the cognitive similarities of the species we encounter, that analogues to each area can be found and subverted in similar ways. It is not, however, something I consider to fit within a more passive model of indoctrination.

Modifié par delta_vee, 19 juin 2012 - 07:50 .

[edisnooM]

@CulturalGeekGirl

"Hey, we just stole an incredibly advanced mystery ship from the Salarians. What should we do with it?"
"I unno. Let's toss it into a warehouse and forget about it."
"Sounds good."

This made me think of the end of Raiders of the Lost Ark, which then made me picture Batarians in the scene, and that made me laugh. :-)

Edit: Batarian in a fedora, now that is a DLC I would pay to see.

Modifié par edisnooM, 20 juin 2012 - 12:28 .

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Hurrah! I was sort of picturing that while writing it.

I like the idea that the Batarians just have an entire hollowed-out moon somewhere full of stacks of wooden crates containing mysterious artifacts of galactic importance that they've just decided not to bother with.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 20 juin 2012 - 12:32 .

[KitaSaturnyne]

@CGG

I just pictured one of the boxes reading "Second Jesus". Awesome.

@delta_vee

Wow. Any hypothetical examples you could give of the indoctrination process in that context? Also, could it cause hallucinations and/or dreams a la IT? (Ugh.)

[edisnooM]

They've probably had the Crucible plans for years but never got around to building it.

Balak: Oh, so that's what those were for. Our bad.

[Seijin8]

@delta_vee: Great summary of limbic/neural interaction with given mechanisms, and your extrapolation of effects and variances for xenobiology are correct, though I am concerned that a tool like this would have to be specially tailored, as we have never seen a case of Reaper tech *not* indoctrinating those nearby, even when said Reaper tech should not have been able to adapt in this way. This leads me to think it isn't so much adaptive as an ME canon implication that neural function is similar enough in all species to be effected. The species we see in ME (excepting maybe the hanar) are similar enough to make this plausible.

@Kitasaturnyne: Anything that affects the hippocampus can produce "hallucinations" to some extent via memory manipulation. Deja vu can be caused by parallel interpretations of sensory data by different parts of the brain. The sense of "I've seen this before" comes when the forebrain (higher thought processes/PFC) deposits information to the hippocampus and finds "that memory is already there". The memory in question was created only a split-second earlier (often by the midbrain/survival center, which operates faster by design) and is of the exact same event, but produces a sense of recurrence which can feel timeless.

It isn't a stretch to think that hippocampus manipulation can re-sort all data into a design supportive of Reaper motivations. The other parts of the brain that delta_vee mentioned might not even be necessary for eventual indoctrination, though they certainly would help.

Modifié par Seijin8, 20 juin 2012 - 01:32 .

[delta_vee]

@Kita

Any hypothetical examples you could give of the indoctrination process in that context? Also, could it cause hallucinations and/or dreams a la IT? (Ugh.)

I'm not sure what you're looking for in terms of hypotheticals, but I based the sequence on Benezia and Saren, with allowances for the memory manipulation of the dead-Reaper team.

As far as hallucinations, I don't think my proposed mechanism would support anything like the kind of dreams we saw in ME3 nor the type of hallucinations IT relies upon as the core subjective experience. Any dreams caused by memory-resorting would be strange, contradictory things, less about (painfully obvious) symbolism and more about snippets and jump cuts and alternate versions of previous events. Hallucinations would manifest as, well, retcons. Characters would speak about an event in your personal history in such a way as to contradict your own recollection of what happened - a mechanic which would be awesome if they'd actually used, especially with your decision history available.

Imagine for a moment if BW had used a version of IT, and followed my proposal for its function. Decisions you'd made one way in the previous two games would be treated as reversed, with only your own memory telling you otherwise. The dream sequences would be rapid-fire fragments of old scenes, playing out first in the fashion they actually happened to the player, then again in the fashion consistent with the modified, indoctrinated false history. Occasionally, and increasingly, Shepard would speak dialogue options opposite to what you'd selected, culminating in entire conversation trees automatically navigated by Shepard, without your input (a new meaning to "autodialogue", methinks). Spitballing here, of course, but I think it has potential.

@Seijin8

...though I am concerned that a tool like this would have to be specially tailored, as we have never seen a case of Reaper tech *not* indoctrinating those nearby, even when said Reaper tech should not have been able to adapt in this way. This leads me to think it isn't so much adaptive as an ME canon implication that neural function is similar enough in all species to be effected. The species we see in ME (excepting maybe the hanar) are similar enough to make this plausible.

I think the wide applicability of asari neural melding demonstrates that similarity, however much it stretches evolutionary plausibility (which we all decided to check at the door from the get-go anyways). The adaptations required could be pretty minimal. I'm not sure there are many (if any) examples of fragments inducing indoctrination as opposed to complete systems, so it's hard to tell.

It isn't a stretch to think that hippocampus manipulation can re-sort all data into a design supportive of Reaper motivations. The other parts of the brain that delta_vee mentioned might not even be necessary for eventual indoctrination, though they certainly would help.

The quick-and-dirty brute-force version might do exactly that, but it would also likely result in dissociative disorder or schizophrenia as the hippocampus attempts to rewire itself to work around the damage (which again, is consistent with what we know of indoc's workings). Targeting the vmPFC, I believe, would be better suited to the sort of subtle influence and unwitting subversion of motive high-level indoctrinated agents display. Avoiding a wholesale resorting of memories also allows for a certain continuity of personality, which lowers the likelihood of agents being detected.

[Seijin8]

I am inclined to think that memory re-sorting via dreams would work exceptionally well, since (theoretically) a function of dreams is to sort new data into old references. This isn't an area we understand well yet, so it is definitely open to pseudo-scientific manipulation for storyline purposes.

EDIT:  Though dissociative conditions would certainly result, the individual might be initially unaware of this.  The sudden realization sequences of Saren and TIM could be interpreted as similar to this.

Modifié par Seijin8, 20 juin 2012 - 02:46 .

[KitaSaturnyne]

@delta_vee

A story like that would have been effing BRILLIANT. I would have accepted that story and fallen in love with it, providing that a satisfying and plausible way of breaking free of it could be provided. After all, one of the main principles of IT that bugs me is that it hinges on indoctrination being a choice, while 100% of cases shown in the game clearly indicate that it's not.

I also like how it discredits IT simply by virtue of ME3 not being told in flashback form.

As for hypotheticals, I was just suggesting anything at all that you could think of. Like, Bob the livestock farmer or a politician or something like that. How might someone's thinking change during the indoctrination process, etc..

@Seijin8

There is an indoctrinated Hanar. You tail him/ her/ it in ME3 on the Citadel with the help of another Spectre.

[Seijin8]

@KitaSaturnyne: Yes, I recall the Hanar, my point was more to say that most lifeforms we encounter are quite similar to humans (bipedal, 1 to 2 meters in heights, one head, four limbs, even number of eyes, etc).

As far as the idea of an inherently contrary play experience, it reminds me of Roland from Stephen King's Dark Tower: The Waste Lands, where dual realities (re: Jake) are intruding on his perceptions.

EDIT:  Repaired book reference.

Modifié par Seijin8, 20 juin 2012 - 03:20 .

[KitaSaturnyne]

@Seijin8

Ah, okay. My bad.

I wonder though, is it a matter of Reapers having highly adaptable indoctrination methods, or that the brains of organic beings all seem to be so similar that a single method can be easily adapted to each type of lifeform?

The brains of many different species here on Earth are quite similar in basic structure and function. Perhaps for the Reapers, it's just a matter of isolating proper equivalents to the hippocampus/ etc. rather than having to tailor a brand new brainwashing suite from the ground up every time? Just make a few adjustments here and there, and away you go, sort of thing.

[delta_vee]

@Seijin8

I'm probably inclined to agree about dream-based memory manipulation as a game mechanic, but for rank-and-file indoc I suspect it'd be more of a symptom than a cause. Subversion of motive while maintaining memory continuity seems to me to be less likely to raise suspicion. Then again, as long as the memnipulation (how's that for inventing words!) is relatively subtle, it could pass muster, especially if it were more of a recontextualization than than an outright rewrite.

As for dissociative conditions, I suspect you're right in how their realization might creep up on the victim. If such a mechanic were used, that would probably be where I'd place the player's opportunity to break free.

@Kita

Again spitballing, but I think I'd have multiple sequences leading up to the point of potential liberation wherein all dialogue choices appear the same. Since so many players use paragon/neutral/renegade as decision shorthand, I'd make the mechanic of breaking free to be a series of blind decisions made by selecting the options based on the player's overall alignment, even if the descriptions and resultant dialogue were the same. This also subverts the save-scumming approach to conversations, as the player can reload multiple times and see for themselves that all options produce the same apparent result (as a stand-in for deja vu, after a fashion). It would require the player to understand what's going on, and make every effort to remain consistent with their own version of Shepard, signifying strength of will in the face of seeming impossibility and loss of agency. Pass enough of those checks by selecting the dialogue-wheel option closest to Shepard's accumulated alignment, and you break free at the critical time.

Edit: As for a hypothetical, take Researcher Doe studying Object Sigma. Doe begins having brief blackouts, forgetting conversations from the previous day, and reduced short-term memory. This corresponds to the hippocampus stage. Next, Doe becomes irritable and prone to outbursts, often escalating conflicts with her coworkers, gambling recklessly during card games after her shifts, and ignoring safety precautions. This would be the orbitofrontal stage. Finally, Doe begins sabotaging the research project in general - stalling promising experiments, placing less-competent personnel in positions of authority, altering test results, and accusing others of going too far in order to deflect blame. This would be the final stage, with full subversion of the vmPFC, and Doe would be entirely under Reaper control.

Modifié par delta_vee, 20 juin 2012 - 03:21 .

[KitaSaturnyne]

@delta_vee

Ingenious, once again, but as I'm sure we both know, much easier said than done. I hereby invoke the name of Fapmaster5000 in order to solve this narrative quandry.

The idea of memories being rewritten from contextually rather than being replaced or even erased/ locked away is absolute perfection. I imagine someone originally thinking "well, that date didn't go well because we just didn't get along well" being made to believe "that date didn't go well because I don't deserve to be happy, and in fact, all (opposite sex plural here) are terrible, immoral creatures because they've all treated me like (favorite euphemism for fecal matter here)!"

EDIT: In the matter of a few posts, you've constructed what could be an entirely new, successful Mass Effect 3. How do you feel?

Modifié par KitaSaturnyne, 20 juin 2012 - 03:26 .

[delta_vee]

@Kita

A) Thanks!

Um, I feel a sudden urge to become a game designer or something. Someone shoud disabuse me of that notion right damn quick.

C) My kingdom for a budget...

[KitaSaturnyne]

@delta_vee

You're welcome, but I'm afraid you'll only find encouragement here, my friend. As for a budget, the age of Kickstarter is still young. Best get cracking.