5087 réponses à ce sujet

[drayfish]

@ Xandurpein: Can I add to the nods of praise and say, impressive work offering that alternate ending to the game. I don't know how you managed to wrangle such disparate elements into a cohesive whole. Nicely done. I like that in that version the Catalyst was trying to help the whole time, threading information through generations to try and cry out from the darkness of aeons past. Much better than the ...unpleasantness of the character's current explanation.  Also, I love that Harbinger's dickish attitude is given some justification. No wonder he thinks he's so damn special. Great work.
 
 
@ frypan: 'Polymath' is the perfect term for delta_vee. Nicely done. I now picture him painting with one hand, scrawling notes in a coded leather-bound tome with the other, reading Ancient Sumerian and whistling yet-unwritten symphonies ...all while hanging from the ceiling like a bat. That's what Da Vinci did, right? That and the whole Assassin's Creed cameo.
 
 
@ KitaSaturnyne: If this thread does get a Kickstarter together to develop a game I insist that 'press A to throw faeces!' remain in the design, no matter what. I don't care if the final product is The Sunshine Bears Visit McHappy Town: Eternal Damnation Edition; a Phoenix Wright clone set at the UN; or Dance, Dance Zombie – there must be an A button. And I must press it.


EDIT: No, absolutely not. This is not worthy of top of the page! People were actually saying great things! This is me petitioning for a dynamic poop joke! ...Sad, sad man.

Okay, for the song, how's about 'Keep the Car Running', Arcade Fire? Little grim, curiously hopeful. Seems to fit the mood of the upcoming EC nicely.

Modifié par drayfish, 22 juin 2012 - 02:51 .

[memorysquid]

frypan wrote...

@memorysquid

Fair enough, I suppose we could say it is a natural order as much as anything. However the point still stands I think that there is no inherent imperative driving the conflict, any more than anything else that starts wars. In each of the synthetic cases it is also clear that a mistake or misunderstanding causes the conflict, all avoidable and not part of the makeup of the creatures themselves. Based on evidence in game also, war may always arise, but so does peace.

That could be the theme "organics always make up with synthetics" -its as good as the inevitability of war theme.

If we accept that the conflict is reason enough to make the issue a central theme, the devs might as well just get Ron Perlman in to do his Fallout 3 voiceover and the whole "war never ends spiel"

All fairly grim for ME universe in my mind.

As far as synthetics outstripping organics, that one is also a speculation by the catalyst and certainly not an in game theme. As mentioned in this thread, humans are moving forward to a higher state naturally, and Shepherds body count of Geth suggests they dont have much chance even now- one man wiped out a shipload of them or reprogrammed them so again, the only inherently superior synthetics are the reapers.

Maybe lack of binocular vision among the Geth is the problem - poor Quarian design?

If the theme was organics and synthetics always make up, it wouldn't have been much of a fun video game.   Well maybe if you like diplomacy simulators.  But yeah it is grim and only redeemed through Shepard's sacrifice.  I still don't get why my "destroy the hordes and blow stuff up" TPS slowly morphed into "The Red Badge of Courage" throughout ME3 and completed its transformation to full on symbolism in the last ten minutes.  Wait ... now I remember ... artistic integrity!  Maybe an executive producer unconcerned with his audience and the genre?

The Geth are barely half-evolved AIs for ME1 and 2 - they only approach true AI status in big groups; they become truly integrated AIs with the Reaper code.  Shepard wouldn't have mowed down mobs of EDIs or Legions with as much ease.

[BigglesFlysAgain]

I'm not sure how canonical most of Shepard's body-counts are, supposedly elite mercs are gunned down like goons, hitmen, assassins, former STG operatives, cerberus operatives asari commandos, all fall easily to Shepard's guns.

Its just infeasible that any one man or woman could come through so many firefights unscathed, many of them are fights on even or unfavorable terms, so its not like he/she gets away with speed and surprise every time. Its the "video-gamey" part that you just have to overlook for the sake of each mission not being like the original rainbow six, with each mission lasting seconds, not hours.

I like my video games video-gamey but I don't think you can take the apparent effectiveness of any of the enemies in game combat as canonical or representative of how actually good they are.


Edit. I don't think anyone was seriously trying to argue sythies vs fleshies was a good /not good theme for that reason, its just somthing to think about.

Modifié par BigglesFlysAgain, 22 juin 2012 - 03:28 .

[Candidate 88766]

Your professor hit the nail on the head perfectly.

Its not the bittersweet/bleak nature of the endings (this is a war story after all), or necessarily the lack of explanation and closure (which, as pointed out, can work, although it really doesn't in this case). Its the fact that the three choices are entirely separated from both the choices you've previously made and the themes of the story itself. Worse, the choices aren't just at odds with the story - they actively undermine the story and the themes Bioware has built up over these three games.

[Orkfaeller]

Xandurpein wrote...

Seijin8 wrote...

So, to summarize: can you construct the outline of an ending whereby:
- The Catalyst is retained in the spirit of elucidation machine and voice of the Reaper's motives
- The summation of the plot is emotionally rigorous, possibly even horrifying, without being so jarring as to divorce the player form the avatar or the narrative itself
- Shepard most likely self-sacrifices without it seeming like a deathmarch
- The finale is "bittersweet" while justifying the notion of Shepard being a legend in the far future, as opposed to a war criminal, mass murderer, foolish pawn of eldritch superbeings, etc.

Consider it a creative writing challenge. Be as complete or outline-oriented as you wish, or ignore this whole foolhardy endeavor.

I know I had promised myself to avoid the arrogance of trying to concoct my own take on the ending, but I guess the temptation is too great. Feel free to be as critical as you want. Here goes:

Shepard finally faces the Catalyst and the Catalyst explains to Shepard that it is from the earliest starfaring race in the galaxy. This race created an synthetic race of servants that eventually rebelled against their creators. The war was fought to a standstill, but this progenitor race believed that in time the synthetics would evolve at a faster pace than they could, so they decided to sacrifice their organic bodies and upload themselves to a vast mechanical hivemind, Reapers, to become the supreme and eternal war machines. Many of the first Reapers were created by slave races sacrificed to create Reapers, but Harbinger was unique, because he was contructed from progenitor volounteers.

The Indoctrination was originally created to unify the separate minds of the uploaded races into one hivemind, but the process was flawed. The Reapers had become the ultimate war machines, but the indoctrination that unified their minds had left them unable to evolve or change. They had become eternal, but unchanging. The Reapers convinced themselves they were pinnacle of evolution, but they were forced to destroy any race that threatened to overtake them by evolving beyond their capacity.

Some of the progenitors had forseen this possiblity though and created a failsafe device; a machine with the knowledge of how to deactivate the Reapers and wipe their minds. This was the VI known as the Catalyst. The Catalyst is bound by various protocols and is paranoid about self-preservation. It has leaked information about how to build the crucible to various races before, but dare not interfere directly. No race's survival is important for this being who think in terms of eons. It's waiting for the right race to appear before it dares commit itself and reveal it's existance. But Shepard has proved that mankind is the allies he's been waiting for.

The Catalyst claims that to destroy all the Reapers and the energy beam needs to be transmitted acroos the galaxy through the Mass Relay system, and that this requires that all the energy stored in the Mass Relays be released, destroying them. This will likely plunge the galaxy into a Galactic dark age, but the Reapers will be destroyed. The Catalyst claims however that the beam can be used in a more subtle way. It is possible to use the indoctrination signal to upload the Catalyst mind onto Harbinger and force the other Reapers to obey it. Catalyst promises then to become an ally of the organics and will use their power to help rebuild the Mass Relays, shortening the galactic dark age and alleviating the consequences considerably. If Shepard voices concern or distrust of the Catalyst motives, Catalyst informs him that there's a third option, insteead of uploading his mind onto Harbinger, he offers to upload Shepard's mind onto Harbinger. This will destroy Shepard's body and instead let him become Harbinger. Optionally there would be some conversation between the Catalyst and Shepard to reveal the nature of Shepard's "reign" should he chose to become a Reaper himself.

Phew, that's all I can think of at the top of my mind. I'm sure there are people who can find plot holes in this too, but at least I had fun musing.

Just here to say thats a REALLY nice post :3

[delta_vee]

Well, then. June 26th. We'll all find out.

@ drayfish, frypan

I categorically deny and and all accusations of "polymath" status. I'm merely a variously-uncredentialed slacker who knows enough about enough to pretend I pass muster. I'm flattered, though.

@Xandurpein

Nice job, and I like how you pulled that judo with the Catalyst, both divorcing it enough from the Reapers to undo the damage to the overall plot of the series and removing the main reason for our distrust of its motives.

@BigglesFlysAgain

Its just infeasible that any one man or woman could come through so many firefights unscathed, many of them are fights on even or unfavorable terms, so its not like he/she gets away with speed and surprise every time. Its the "video-gamey" part that you just have to overlook for the sake of each mission not being like the original rainbow six, with each mission lasting seconds, not hours.

Y'know, I almost wish more RPGs would take RS' approach to combat, including the possibility of permadeath.

[KitaSaturnyne]

Hey! I'm just like delta_vee! Only a lot less educated. I wonder what that says about either of us.

So yeah, it's been announced.

What'd you guys think of the interview?

[delta_vee]

This little tidbit seems...well, very interesting (from 
http://www.masseffec...t/extended_cut/ ):

To experience the Extended Cut, load a save game from before the attack on the Cerberus Base and play through to the end of the game. The Extended Cut endings will differ depending on choices made throughout the Mass Effect series, so multiple playthroughs with a variety of different decisions will be required to experience the variety of possibilities offered by the new content.

Modifié par delta_vee, 22 juin 2012 - 05:51 .

[KitaSaturnyne]

@delta_vee

It's quite interesting, indeed. For me, it leaves me on a precipice between optimism and dread - on one hand, they're not axing the Catalyst and three final choices, but on the other, they seem to be promising exactly what I went on about the other day: making the ending feel like a damn ENDING. And to a trilogy, no less.

Will the Catalyst scene's presence still cause too much of a disconnect for players, making all their new work (extended goodbyes to all our friends, explanations of WTF happens) ineffective at best? Or will the latter outweigh the former?

[deliphicovenant42]

BigglesFlysAgain wrote...
I'm not sure how canonical most of Shepard's body-counts are,
supposedly elite mercs are gunned down like goons, hitmen,
assassins, former STG operatives, cerberus operatives asari
commandos, all fall easily to Shepard's guns.

I have to shamelessly reference one of my favorite tropes connected with this part of the game:
Conservation of Ninjutsu
In any martial arts fight, there is only a finite amount of ninjutsu available to each side in a given encounter. As a result, one Ninja is a deadly threat, but an army of them are cannon
fodder.

tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ConservationOfNinjutsu

Between the name and the perfect summation of a concept we're all to familiar with, I love it.

PS: This was sent from my phone so I beg forgiveness if the formatting doesn't look all that great.

[deliphicovenant42]

I just listened to the interview posted with the EC link and have very mixed feelings. I still have some hope they may be able to better setup the finale, but with their emphasis on closure and lack of changes I'm not sure it'll salvage what they broke. I'm going to do my best as far as going into it with an open mind though.

[frypan]

@Kita,

Enjoyed the story immensely, but before I comment I should share a couple of things. I am usually averse to first person narratives unless they are centred on an unreliable narrator or self-depreciating in style. Fortunately noir is also fine by me, as it usually (or seems) to involve a character with flawed or limited perceptions.

That is an interesting one – why I cannot relate to first person narratives but enjoy first person games immensely – topic for another day maybe.

Also – my guilty secret – I hate gangsters and gangster stories. Never watched Sopranos, loathed everyone in Goodfellas and gain no pleasure from such tales. Poor old de Niro has never been high on my list of great actors as a result, in spite of some of his fine performances.

This meant that I started reading Sam’s tale with dread, as I cannot relate to hitmen or their world. While enjoying the writing, I was totally alienated from the character. However, as the story progressed my thoughts changed. The moments with Laura were well done, and as it moved towards the redemptive climax I really got into it, as it transformed from gangster story to something I could identify with.

The ending was both apt and uplifting for me as it was how such a story should end. With the realignment of the universe in which Sam’s story was set, my whole interpretation changed from gangster glorification to a redemptive tale of friendship and the nature of relationships – true friendship and love vs. the poisoned hierarchies of criminal organisations.

Hope I read that right, but it meant I really enjoyed the story. Can’t offer much more than my personal observations as I am not the literary expert. Thanks though, for writing a tale I can identify with in spite of my preconceptions of the genre, I just love a good redemptive story!

And now – the EC. Uugh, looks like I have to admit defeat. They might pull it off, but sounds like some of my major issues ie Shepherd dead pretty much no matter what, will still be there.

From the sounds of the interview, it seems they addressed the initial outrage but then stopped addressing the criticism. They’ll look at the fallout of what they wrote rather than whether what was written was worth it, Such a shame but understandable given the timeframe they finished it in. The moment I saw the announcement I figured as much – just not enough time for major changes.

As a victim of the Black Screen of Death, I’m not tempted to create a new gamertag just to run through and see the result. Looks like I’ll be relying on Youtube and fellow posters. So sad, I had some fine speculations brewing away and was hoping for more time to chew the fat before the EC came out.
 
EDIT: What's this - they've fixed the EMS issue? So Shepherd can possibly live? (Single tear of joy rolls down this jaded gamer's cheek) I think I can live with that, always wanted my puppies and rainbows.

Modifié par frypan, 22 juin 2012 - 10:30 .

[Fapmaster5000]

Well, moment of truth will be Tuesday.

With the leak of Hackett ordering Joker to run, I'm not exactly hopeful (polishing turd instead of removing it), but I'll still give them a chance to unf*ck the ending, since... you know... it's free. Expect either an exuberant or exasperated post on Tuesday from me. If you hear nothing but silence from my account... they've killed the part of my brain that they once colonized.

Modifié par Fapmaster5000, 22 juin 2012 - 10:37 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

1.9 GB should make the turd nice and shiny. My hopes are not high. I have other questions that I know are not going to be answered. These are the Ed Wood moments:

1) How did Shepard's armor change from Blood Dragon armor to N7 armor after the laser blast?

2) The unlimited ammo gun -- where is my Mattock?

3) Why does my Mattock always change to an Avenger in every cutscene?

4) Why do explosions make noise in a vacuum?

5) Why doesn't Shepard just shoot TIM before he gets a word out of his mouth? Oh, that's right. It's the bad guy's big screen "let me explain my motivations and why you're a dumb ass" moment.

[BigglesFlysAgain]

I go out for one evening and suddenly twitter is aflame and everyone is scrambling attack craft... release on the 26th? Oh, I was planning at least one more month of moaning time , oh well at least it can potentially give me new stuff to moan about...

Can't wait for everyone here's thoughts on it... we can always roll out the OP to add "Still" to title lol, though I think less of us may care by that point...

Modifié par BigglesFlysAgain, 23 juin 2012 - 12:20 .

[edisnooM]

@frypan

Going back a bit, but I'm afraid I'm going to have to make a really geeky nitpick: Ron Perlman doesn't say "War never ends", but "War; War never changes" :-)


Also is anyone else sort of dreading playing the EC? From what they're saying it sounds like it's still going to be as is but with maybe some lines like: "Boy, synthesis sure is great. And no negative side effects at all. Three cheers for The Shepard!"

Our squad is still stranded on some world somewhere, the Relays are still gone, and the fleet still stuck in Sol. Without "Fundamentally Changing" the ending how do they think this will be any better?

And if the thing about Hackett is true it's incredibly annoying because that was one of the things people were joking they would do after the EC was announced. Am I the only one who thinks that Joker would tell Hackett to jump out an airlock if he ordered him to leave?

[drayfish]

 
Wow. Okay, so that happened. 
 
Was not expecting to wake up and hear this news. I can tell if that's the sound of ominous thunder in the distance, or the stampeding horde of celebratory fans. I guess we'll find out Wednesday. 
 
I agree with much of what's already been said: I like the idea of reloading the save pre-Cerberus Base (happy good hope for happys), and of course epilogues are always welcome – but there was a leak about Hackett ordering Joker to run, Fapmaster5000? That's... not what I was hoping for. Again, way too early to form an opinion, but if I'm honest I don't think I'll ever be sold on the idea of Joker running, ordered to or not (if indeed that is what happens). 
 
Again, I gladly acknowledge that it's far too early to judge, so I'm not (despite all of the words that I seem to be saying). Indeed, maybe this titbit of info can just be my way to steel myself against allowing my expectations to run wild again. There will be a Catalyst. Fact.  There will be a running-away. That's f –  ...Excuse me. That's fact.  Hopefully they can pull out something as miraculous and elegant as some of the suggestions I've seen throughout this thread to better contextualise those plot points, and maybe, hopefully, somehow, return some light to the dreary mire that seemed to swallow the narrative first time around. 

[drayfish]

 Double post blergs!  Sorry.

Although I do want to nod theatrically to offer my agreement with edisnooM: my fear (which I hope will be entirely disproved come four (?) days from now) is that these changes will just be narrative spackle, filling in the cracks and fissures.


SYNTHESIS:

ASHLEY: 'Hey don't worry 'bout it.  Synthesis.  It's all good.  Look at my toaster-cat.  Happy as can be.'


CONTROL:

HARBINGER: 'You know, Shepard, sitting here with you now, downloaded into our psyche and ordering us to bend to your will, I finally see that I was mistaken about you, and your whole delightful little race.  You're just a charming little scamp with a heart of gold.  Would you mind passing another cucumber sandwich, my good chap?'


DESTROY:

JOKER: 'Yeah, EDI always talked about robot heaven.  It's totally a place that I didn't make up.  So, yeah.  All good.'

Modifié par drayfish, 23 juin 2012 - 12:46 .

[StowyMcStowstow]

New epilogues welcome? Are you high? If there's one thing I do NOT need, it's that guy and his kid poorly voice acting at the stars.

[Devil Mingy]

Well, looking at all that we've seen so far... at least there's still hope for a reunion with the LI with the Shepard Lives Destroy ending. That's a way to look on the bright side.

The situation with Hackett telling Joker and the rest of the fleet to pull back doesn't sit well with me. I won't commit to hating it until I see what they do with it, but I am definitely apprehensive. I'd almost prefer "lots of speculations" non-answers to answers that just make me hate it more.

At least Merrizan said that it will be vague enough so as to not disprove the IT. That seems to undermine the entire "clarity" thing, but oh well. Anyone want cake while we wait?

[drayfish]

StowyMcStowstow wrote...

New epilogues welcome? Are you high? If there's one thing I do NOT need, it's that guy and his kid poorly voice acting at the stars.

Oh, yes.  Very good point.  I actually think I'd blocked that crazy old survivalist out of my mind.  Yeah, the Stargazer is not what I meant.  Indeed, as near as I can tell he took that kid out into the wilderness as some kind of crazed murder suicide.  Neither one of them is prepared for that weather and that is a highly inappropriate story for a child.

'And the Shepard killed all the Geth?'

'Yes, my sweet.  Now give in to the unsettling hypothemic warmth.'

[BigglesFlysAgain]

Devil Mingy wrote...

At least Merrizan said that it will be vague enough so as to not disprove the IT. That seems to undermine the entire "clarity" thing, but oh well. Anyone want cake while we wait?

Wait what? Did she say that in the video interview?

I refuse to watch that becuase I value my laptop screen too much to have punch marks in it, but if she really said that I am just going to mash my head into the keyboard...

So it will answer all and nothing at the same time? lol

[Seijin8]

Its okay, Drayfish, I'm kinda sitting here sputtering too. Really didn't expect this. Good I guess that they are going to rip the bandage off quickly, I suppose.

1.9GB is pretty big for just cutscenes and exposition. Its reasonable that each of the three endings will be significantly different. Saying that prior ME1/ME2 decisions matter for the end means... what? A cutscene with Wreave OR Wrex? A cutscene with Kaiden/Ash? Old council vs. new? That's one of those "probably means nothing" comments.

Given that they are sticking with the broad outlines, I think at best we are getting a well-executed crappy ending. And honestly, thats okay. I've headcanoned Sable Phoenix's "Shepard is a Cerberus AI carrying anti-Reaper code. Indoc me please. This hurts YOU Harby!" as the true ending for 2 of my 3 Sheps.

The third will get to ride the EC rollercoatser, and we'll see how that pans out.

But I will keep any kindling away from the embers of hope until Tuesday.

[edisnooM]

Poor Buzz Aldrin, his voice forever tarnished.

Also no combat in the EC apparently, which rules out the epic Mako Harbinger showdown. And neither confirming nor denying IT seems like it could cause issues.

[BigglesFlysAgain]

edisnooM wrote...

Poor Buzz Aldrin, his voice forever tarnished.

Also no combat in the EC apparently, which rules out the epic Mako Harbinger showdown. And neither confirming nor denying IT seems like it could cause issues.

So what they are basicly saying if that is true, is that "if you still hate it, INDOC it! *Trollface*"

Modifié par BigglesFlysAgain, 23 juin 2012 - 12:51 .