5087 réponses à ce sujet

[Fapmaster5000]

@edisnooM

"Boy, this is sure is great <insert ending>. Gosh jolly willickers!" <-- What I fear most. This would stem from a very sad line of thought that was "Oh, dear God, the interwebs are aflame! What do we do? How do we make them shut up and pay? HAPPY RAINBOWS AND SUNSHINE!" It fixes the lesser problem (too grim for some) and ignores the copious, much more serious problems that would take far more to fix. (Like fixing the flat tire while the engine is on fire.)

@drayfish

There was a screencap that slipped out where Hackett is all like, "Joker, jump into hyperspace to fix the plot hole!" Those who found it started to smolder, and Bioware was all like, "Guys, hold on until you get context! It's not what it looks like (which is poop, by the way -ed)."

Normally, this would fly with me. Context is everything, and the context I'd like to see is Joker replying, "Sorry, sir, you're breaking up, sir- EDI! Cut channel! We're going back!" and then muttering, "Leave the Commander? What kind of jerk does he think I am?"

On the other hand, when the original script leaks came out, and those in the know started to smolder, Bioware said ""Guys, hold on until you get context! It's not what it looks like!"

We all know how that turned out. (The aforementioned poop.)

So, yeah, I'm waiting, hoping, and not expecting much. Maybe it will be deliciously backhanded, and it will give some good internet rage. (Is it sad that I'm more expecting to be rewarded with excellent trolling than excellent writing?) 1.9GB of video showing everyone starving to death in slow motion would be "priceless", if I can convey the right context to the word.

EDIT:  Top post?  NO NO NO NO NO!  FORUM!  You listen to me!  DO NOT GIVE TOP POST TO ANY POST THAT CONTAINS THE WORD "POOP" MORE THAN ONCE!

Modifié par Fapmaster5000, 23 juin 2012 - 12:56 .

[Seijin8]

If it doesn't work out, I'll just go back to my Skyrim happy place. They don't hit me with crappy endings there. Even saving everyone from Alduin the World-Eater feels like a side quest. No endings AT ALL... thats... better?

[Fapmaster5000]

Devil Mingy wrote...

Well, looking at all that we've seen so far... at least there's still hope for a reunion with the LI with the Shepard Lives Destroy ending. That's a way to look on the bright side.

The situation with Hackett telling Joker and the rest of the fleet to pull back doesn't sit well with me. I won't commit to hating it until I see what they do with it, but I am definitely apprehensive. I'd almost prefer "lots of speculations" non-answers to answers that just make me hate it more.

At least Merrizan said that it will be vague enough so as to not disprove the IT. That seems to undermine the entire "clarity" thing, but oh well. Anyone want cake while we wait?

She said this?

This is NOT a good thing.  Building around that kind of thought bomb requires a narrative delicacy I do not expect from them, and seem more like a good way to shoot yourself in the artistic foot before you start the race, all to appeal to every demographic you possibly can.  

It's like they can't plumb the middle ground.  It's either "wh*re out" or "cast down manna from the heights" in their approach to writing.  

i confuse

Modifié par Fapmaster5000, 23 juin 2012 - 12:57 .

[CulturalGeekGirl]

memorysquid wrote...

frypan wrote...

@memorysquid

Fair enough, I suppose we could say it is a natural order as much as anything. However the point still stands I think that there is no inherent imperative driving the conflict, any more than anything else that starts wars. In each of the synthetic cases it is also clear that a mistake or misunderstanding causes the conflict, all avoidable and not part of the makeup of the creatures themselves. Based on evidence in game also, war may always arise, but so does peace.

That could be the theme "organics always make up with synthetics" -its as good as the inevitability of war theme.

If we accept that the conflict is reason enough to make the issue a central theme, the devs might as well just get Ron Perlman in to do his Fallout 3 voiceover and the whole "war never ends spiel"

All fairly grim for ME universe in my mind.

As far as synthetics outstripping organics, that one is also a speculation by the catalyst and certainly not an in game theme. As mentioned in this thread, humans are moving forward to a higher state naturally, and Shepherds body count of Geth suggests they dont have much chance even now- one man wiped out a shipload of them or reprogrammed them so again, the only inherently superior synthetics are the reapers.

Maybe lack of binocular vision among the Geth is the problem - poor Quarian design?

If the theme was organics and synthetics always make up, it wouldn't have been much of a fun video game.   Well maybe if you like diplomacy simulators.  But yeah it is grim and only redeemed through Shepard's sacrifice.  I still don't get why my "destroy the hordes and blow stuff up" TPS slowly morphed into "The Red Badge of Courage" throughout ME3 and completed its transformation to full on symbolism in the last ten minutes.  Wait ... now I remember ... artistic integrity!  Maybe an executive producer unconcerned with his audience and the genre?

The Geth are barely half-evolved AIs for ME1 and 2 - they only approach true AI status in big groups; they become truly integrated AIs with the Reaper code.  Shepard wouldn't have mowed down mobs of EDIs or Legions with as much ease.

Changes. War never changes.

I'm not trying to be that kind of nerd here, but I think the distinction is important. It's the difference between dark and nihilistic... the difference between fallout and Warhammer, where in the grim nightmare of the far future there is only war.

I never thought there'd be a time when I'd describe Mass Effect as "darker than fallout, closer to warhammer in its philosophical aesthetic" but that's where we are right now. I have some hope for the EC, but due to the released statements and the scenes we know exist, I'm expecting that fragile hope to be dashed, as it was based mainly on the idea that they were secretly changing things far more than had been suggested. The "Joker runs" sequence's thematic association with severing the bonds between Shepard and crew is inescapable at this point... the fact that the developers didn't see that is disheartening.

As for the theme of inevitable war between synthetics and organics, I think very few people would have pegged that as a major theme before the endings. The evolving relationship between the two? Sure, but not the complete opposition the Starkid presents. If you asked me to rank the three adversarial races who I've saved from extinction over the course of the series in terms of "likeliness that they will kill us all and destroy galactic civilization" I'd put the Rachnii first, the Krogan second, and the Geth a distant, distant third.

I got the idea that war (in general) was inevitable far more strongly than the idea that war with synthetics specifically was more probable or destructive than any other kind of war.

Bah. After the EC, I expect something like 50-70% of people to be at least marginally satisfied, because most people don't care about theme and are fairly willing to discard any feeling of moral conflict in exchange for a means to craft themselves a canonical happy ending.

[edisnooM]

@Fapmaster5000

"See whatcha got here is a flat tire, which is ruining your car somethin fierce."

"Uh what about the flames coming out from under the hood?"

"Fuggedaboutit."


@Seijin8

Hooray?

[Seijin8]

For Merizzan's quote to be true only requires that they leave all existing "IT evidence" in place, and do not specifically call it out as "not possible". Given how indoctrinated the IT crowd seem to act, I don't think it will be hard for them to stay in that headspace.

[edisnooM]

But how exactly are any epilogues supposed to play out if the player is indoctrinated? It will all be a dream or something?

It doesn't seem like they can go too much past the ending without addressing the rather large elephant in the room.

"More tea Horton?"

[BigglesFlysAgain]

Seijin8 wrote...

For Merizzan's quote to be true only requires that they leave all existing "IT evidence" in place, and do not specifically call it out as "not possible". Given how indoctrinated the IT crowd seem to act, I don't think it will be hard for them to stay in that headspace.

Well there is a  line to tread, say shepard starts wondering around and chatting with LI and crew ect, most people would be convinced IT is wrong, though some people could claim it was like inception and still not real, but I think she means its still going to be as bloody vauge as before <_<

[Fapmaster5000]

Seijin8 wrote...

For Merizzan's quote to be true only requires that they leave all existing "IT evidence" in place, and do not specifically call it out as "not possible". Given how indoctrinated the IT crowd seem to act, I don't think it will be hard for them to stay in that headspace.

I can see that point, but if they are designing the ending around the idea of neither proving nor disproving IT, that means they have to avoid clarifying anything that would solve its puzzle.  Given the scope of such a theory, that takes a huge chunk of "what the heck just happened" and puts it inside the Schroedinger Plot Box.

Take the movie "Inception".  In the end, Cobb is either awake or he isn't, but either is functional as an ending, and it may not even matter.  If they decided to make "Inception 2: Electric Boogaloo", and said they would "clear up the ambiguity" (clarity) and give closure, and then they decided to leave it unclear what the ending of the first one even was... well, that leaves a lot of problems for deciding what happens next, when the entire meaning of the narrative changes based on the interpretation.

[Devil Mingy]

For anyone interested, here are the relevant tweets for the EC.

EC on IT

EC adds about 10 minutes, but is allegedly varied enough to compensate

No additional combat

No changes to Cerberus Base or London (at least the really good part of London)

All in all, I'm going to download it and go through it expecting nothing more than a few handwaves at the plotholes (likely making them worse) with a happy ending tacked on to shut everyone up about it.

I would love to be pleasantly surprised. However, between this debacle and my recent playthrough of DA2, I have lost a lot of confidence in Bioware's storytelling abilities.

Modifié par Devil Mingy, 23 juin 2012 - 01:14 .

[BigglesFlysAgain]

Devil Mingy wrote...

For anyone interested, here are the relevant tweets for the EC.

EC on IT

EC adds about 10 minutes, but is allegedly varied enough to compensate

No additional combat

No changes to Cerberus Base or London (at least the really good part of London)

Ok basicly what they are saying is, its not like shepard is going to suddenly say (if he lives) wait was all that real? its basicly all going to be true, but if you really hate it still you can belive its not

[Devil Mingy]

BigglesFlysAgain wrote...


Ok basicly what they are saying is, its not like shepard is going to suddenly say (if he lives) wait was all that real? its basicly all going to be true, but if you really hate it still you can belive its not

Pretty much, but it doesn't give me a lot of hope that things that don't make sense are going to start making sense. Still, at least we'll finally have some distinction between the ending choices other than the color and the fate of Big Ben.

[FamilyManFirst]

Seijin8 wrote...

For Merizzan's quote to be true only requires that they leave all existing "IT evidence" in place, and do not specifically call it out as "not possible". Given how indoctrinated the IT crowd seem to act, I don't think it will be hard for them to stay in that headspace.

My best guess is that this means that they didn't clean up the messy scenes from the Harbinger Beam Knockout to the TIM Confrontation, allowing IT believers to continue to discount everything from the HBK on as Indoctrination.  We're still going to be left with questions like, "Where's my armor?" and "How did I wind up with a pistol with infinite ammo?" and "How did Anderson get ahead of me?"  Had they fixed those up it could have shot down IT; if they leave them alone, then IT believers can keep their faith.

[Fapmaster5000]

FamilyManFirst wrote...

Seijin8 wrote...

For Merizzan's quote to be true only requires that they leave all existing "IT evidence" in place, and do not specifically call it out as "not possible". Given how indoctrinated the IT crowd seem to act, I don't think it will be hard for them to stay in that headspace.

My best guess is that this means that they didn't clean up the messy scenes from the Harbinger Beam Knockout to the TIM Confrontation, allowing IT believers to continue to discount everything from the HBK on as Indoctrination.  We're still going to be left with questions like, "Where's my armor?" and "How did I wind up with a pistol with infinite ammo?" and "How did Anderson get ahead of me?"  Had they fixed those up it could have shot down IT; if they leave them alone, then IT believers can keep their faith.

Wait, wait, wait... we're justifying sloppy work as metafictional genius now?

Well f*ck me, I'm not even going to write anymore.  I'm just going to sling together words from an online thesaurus and then randomly delete the last ten pages and call it high art!

[BigglesFlysAgain]

Devil Mingy wrote...

BigglesFlysAgain wrote...


Ok basicly what they are saying is, its not like shepard is going to suddenly say (if he lives) wait was all that real? its basicly all going to be true, but if you really hate it still you can belive its not

Pretty much, but it doesn't give me a lot of hope that things that don't make sense are going to start making sense. Still, at least we'll finally have some distinction between the ending choices other than the color and the fate of Big Ben.

Or the soon to be renamed "Elizabeth tower" which contains big ben, will make calling it by its propper name a lot easier lol, no one but tour guides know what the tower is actualy called at the moment, though the fate of big ben is also true, becuase the bell is probably destroyed in some of the endings.

[FamilyManFirst]

Devil Mingy wrote...

For anyone interested, here are the relevant tweets for the EC.

EC on IT

EC adds about 10 minutes, but is allegedly varied enough to compensate

No additional combat

No changes to Cerberus Base or London (at least the really good part of London)

Pity about the last.  I was rather expecting some cutscenes during the battle for London that showed the forces you recruited doing their part.  Ah, well.

[Devil Mingy]

BigglesFlysAgain wrote...

Or the soon to be renamed "Elizabeth tower" which contains big ben, will make calling it by its propper name a lot easier lol, no one but tour guides know what the tower is actualy called at the moment, though the fate of big ben is also true, becuase the bell is probably destroyed in some of the endings.

Curse my lack of knowledge!

Nevertheless, still, it's nice that we're going to get a look at what we did beyond whether the tower's still standing (how did the Reapers manage to hit every building in London except for that one, anyway?).

[BigglesFlysAgain]

Devil Mingy wrote...



Curse my lack of knowledge!

Nevertheless, still, it's nice that we're going to get a look at what we did beyond whether the tower's still standing (how did the Reapers manage to hit every building in London except for that one, anyway?).

Who knows lol, maybe they wanted to keep some of the buildings as attractions for reaper tourists... Yeah...

[FamilyManFirst]

Fapmaster5000 wrote...

FamilyManFirst wrote...

My best guess is that this means that they didn't clean up the messy scenes from the Harbinger Beam Knockout to the TIM Confrontation, allowing IT believers to continue to discount everything from the HBK on as Indoctrination.  We're still going to be left with questions like, "Where's my armor?" and "How did I wind up with a pistol with infinite ammo?" and "How did Anderson get ahead of me?"  Had they fixed those up it could have shot down IT; if they leave them alone, then IT believers can keep their faith.

Wait, wait, wait... we're justifying sloppy work as metafictional genius now?

Well f*ck me, I'm not even going to write anymore.  I'm just going to sling together words from an online thesaurus and then randomly delete the last ten pages and call it high art!

Genius?  Hah!  BioWare got lucky in their sloppiness ... and then decided not to take advantage of their own luck.  IT gave them an opening to do things right, and they ignored it.  Foolishness.

Given the excellence of what I've seen you write, Fapmaster, if you decide to write something that way, I'll at least give it a look-see! 

[frypan]

Oh dear. Thanks for the Perlman pickup edisnooM and culturegeekgirl – and edisnooM, you almost made me spill my cuppa with laughter with the synthesis quote. My post though was poorly thought out and only meant in jest, so please forgive the misremembered, but oh so important quote of The Great Ron. However, you were supposed to say how utterly brilliant my debunking of the synthesis vs organics theme idea was in the main post before it.

Couple of actual thoughts though regarding the EC.

Re the Joker flight issue - there will be an order to run away, but whether that happens may depend on other things. They mention in the blog bringing in more criteria for the final run – like in previous games. Maybe a little thing like bringing EDI and Joker together will determine the outcome of that scenario. Not sure but there is hope.

Also, that dev shot of the crew in front of the memorial seems unlikely to happen in a totalled Normandy

As to the size of download – they worked fast, so its probably not optimised size wise, not that I’m complaining. However in combination with Merrizan’s post about it being 10 minutes worth, that must mean fairly divergent endings. That possibility, as with the Joker issue, suggests quite a few variables.

Think too, early release of EC may mean more stuff on the horizon – like any Bioware DLC it may address our desires for the rest of the game. All is not lost folks, so while I don’t think the crucible can ever be fixed, who knows what might be added to recontextualise the final moments.

@Fapmaster5000 – lucky I finished that cuppa before your post – or I would definitely have spilt it. Your devlish glee at the potential flame wars is “priceless” itself, and has me going all renegade too.

Maybe I’m just giddy at the thought of a happier ending, and selling out thematic integrity to that hope. I feel like the hypothetical bartender in the Desperado joke, laughing while pee streams down his face. The mention of IT ambiguity is the only stinker in that happy bog.

Modifié par frypan, 23 juin 2012 - 01:31 .

[TLK Spires]

Devil Mingy wrote...

For anyone interested, here are the relevant tweets for the EC.

EC on IT

EC adds about 10 minutes, but is allegedly varied enough to compensate

No additional combat

No changes to Cerberus Base or London (at least the really good part of London)

All in all, I'm going to download it and go through it expecting nothing more than a few handwaves at the plotholes (likely making them worse) with a happy ending tacked on to shut everyone up about it.

I would love to be pleasantly surprised. However, between this debacle and my recent playthrough of DA2, I have lost a lot of confidence in Bioware's storytelling abilities.

welp, that confirms it. the extended farce will cement the legacy of embarrassment, pandering and outright disgust that mass effect 3 has built for itself. 

i wasn't going to download it any damn way, but now, it's time to sell my stock, liquidate my assets, and trample some women and children on the way to the lifeboats. 5 goddamn years, and it's sinking faster than ever. i'm getting the hell off of this ship. the paupers in the lower decks are rioting and looting, the wealthy members up top are running around like chickens with their heads cut off and the captain is drinking himself into a coma.


ladies and gentlemen, it's over. the dream is over.

Modifié par TLK Spires, 23 juin 2012 - 01:38 .

[delta_vee]

A metatextual note: too much about the EC outside of the approved sticky thread runs a risk of the Lock. We do not want this.

On a personal note: I'm going to give the EC a spin. It can't really hurt, not like the first time did. If nothing else, I'd like to see firsthand what they took from the criticism leveled at them. As frypan so aptly said:

From the sounds of the interview, it seems they addressed the initial outrage but then stopped addressing the criticism. They’ll look at the fallout of what they wrote rather than whether what was written was worth it.

And I'm at least academically curious what the wreckage looks like.

In the meantime, though, I've registered awtr.ca on the off-chance that some of the fine minds here would like to recongregate somewhere else after our ten lashes. The only reason I've stayed here as long as I have is not for any loyalty to the game itself so much as all of you who have proven such good company. It'd be a damn shame to lose you all to the hateful mists. (PM me if you're interested in the slightest, and I'll see about getting hosting and all that. If not, no worries, I won't be offended.)

Modifié par delta_vee, 23 juin 2012 - 01:40 .

[edisnooM]

@frypan

Sorry, your brilliant debunking of the synthetics vs organics theme was very good. :-)


Edit: @delta_vee

Interesting idea. I personally am fine either way with staying on the BSN or going to a new place for discussion. I'll just follow the conversation. :-)

Modifié par edisnooM, 23 juin 2012 - 02:31 .

[Fapmaster5000]

Likewise.

Also, @FamilyManFirst

Thanks for the compliment! That kind of feedback keeps my motor humming. On that (sadly self-pandering) note, if anyone does wish to see and/or provide feedback to something I've pounded out, let me know. I've got the pieces of a novel-thing lying about my computer, and I keep slamming them together into a vague semblance of story.

@frypan

Glad I didn't cost you the valuable wake up juice! Gonna have myself some right now, now that you mention it.

[frypan]

Count me in Delta. Have lots of gaming related stuff I'd love to discuss, but its been too off topic.

No other group seems to tackle it with the depth of this one. Also, more scope for feedback on what people are writing. In the meantime though, as long as the devs allow it this place will soon get back on topic with how themes are dealt with in the EC.