5087 réponses à ce sujet

[delta_vee]

Hurm. Just listened to that interview. Seemed...subtly defensive. The part about (paraphrasing here) not being able to change the endings wholesale because they "don't know how to write that story" got me thinking:

What story, exactly, were they wanting to tell?

We've discussed what many of us see as the fundamental thematic and narrative dislocations of the Ten Minutes ad nauseam. We've even put forth a number of theories about the devs' thought processes in the ending's construction, but I don't think we've actually addressed this particular question.

Edit: again? Really? Dammit.

"Roads", by Portishead, then.

Modifié par delta_vee, 23 juin 2012 - 03:58 .

[Taboo]

They aren't sure what they wanted. I've seen this before. Things just get...muddled and people try something like this and well, this is the end result.

I was pleased, however, that the EMS issue is being resolved.

[edisnooM]

Where did they mention they're fixing the EMS issue?

[TheOptimist]

edisnooM wrote...

Where did they mention they're fixing the EMS issue?

http://social.biowar.../index/12695580

This topic, along with tweets, suggest EMS will at last cease to be an issue for those of us with little interest in MP.  Provided you do things correctly, the best ending should be within your reach anyway.  How this will work is still up in the air until we actually see the EC.

[delta_vee]

@Taboo

Yeah, that's what I'm afraid of. Casey, at least, seemed (somewhat) genuinely surprised at the apocalyptic inferences people drew, which is perhaps symptomatic of late-production myopia if nothing else. I suspect CGG might be right in that they truly didn't know what part of their story got people so engaged - see that Film Crit Hulk article I linked earlier.

@edisnooM

The relevant thread (skip to page 9 for additional tweets) is here.

Edit: ninja'd.

Modifié par delta_vee, 23 juin 2012 - 04:16 .

[edisnooM]

Huh, that's a little vague on detail even with the no longer need 4000 tweet. Guess we'll have to see how it plays out.

Whatever the outcome the 26th should be interesting.

[jbauck]

So, late April, I realized I >was< seeking ending clarity. The lack of clarity really was the source of my inability to disengage from Mass Effect and get on with my real life ... only, the clarity I needed wasn't for the ending itself, it was clarifying exactly why I hated it so much.

I think it's >that< impulse that's led to 150 pages of some of the most awesome stuff I have ever read on the internet (though, admittedly, I have a >lot< of catching up to do, as I made myself scarce on the boards in order to preserve my sanity shortly after posting the giant wall of text linked in my sig).

I am greatly looking forward to reading what everyone in this thread has to say about the EC and will be right here with popcorn come the 26th. Maybe the 27th. I just have one request/suggestion - sum up your Shepard when you post your thoughts? If the EC really does diverge drastically due to choices (I hate that I have to qualify that ... "fool me once ..."), that's going to be relevant.

[KitaSaturnyne]

Criminy, people! I play MP3 to show my brother the game and you guys go all NUCLEAR ASPLODEY here! This is going to be edited as I go along the thread. Good lord.

@drayfish, Mani Mani

I totally share your fear. While I think they're heading in a better direction in terms of choices and saying goodbye to the characters, their intention to justify plotholes (Joker's running like a poop heel, etc.) raises some pretty big red flags already.

@frypan

I appreciate your comments, thanks a lot! I'm very glad you ended up enjoying the story despite your preconceptions about gangster fiction and first person narration.

Your analysis of the story was just great! I honestly wish I could have intended a story that deep, and I certainly see the merit of what you're saying. I have to admit though, that I touched on all these themes unintentionally, and without any pre-meditation. I just wanted to entertain myself by telling a little story in my head that I thought would be satisfying for me.

Again, thanks!

@delta_vee

Re: awtr.ca

If you build it, we will come. (over)

@Everyone

Lastly, (all together now) Ugh. Indoctrination Theory.

Modifié par KitaSaturnyne, 23 juin 2012 - 05:47 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

You know that moral dilemma with the two lifeboats where the one you're in has a hole in it and you have one opportunity to go over to your friend's undamaged boat, but if you do the boat you're in will sink in two hrs because the 9 crewmembers left will tire; but if you don't you'll last five hrs but there's no guarantee help will arrive in 5 hrs. If Mass Effect 3 is that damaged boat, I'm going over to my friend's boat and leaving the 9 crew members to bail constantly for 2 hrs and sink if help doesn't arrive in two hrs.

Since I want to see the EC in context with the entire game, and it's been since March that I've played ME3 single player, I'm going to run through the game with "The Terminator." The poor geth will die on Rannoch, because Tali and I will deactivate Legion. The galaxy will be rid of the Geth menace, and thus I shall be free of the moral dilemma at the end of the game. And I also know now to take Kaiden and EDI on the final assault, since the laser blast will now take care of the EDI problem and make selecting destroy free of any moral dilemma.

So Mr. Catalyst to you I say this:

[Seijin8]

@jbauck: Welcome back! Nice to enjoy Apocalypse Future: Part Deux with good company.

@everyone: I am studiously staying away from the blog. I cannot believe anything they think they are doing will manifest in the way they think it will, so what they have to say on the subject is somewhere between deceptive and irrelevant.

[nullobject]

BigglesFlysAgain wrote...

So what they are basicly saying if that is true, is that "if you still hate it, INDOC it! *Trollface*"

Or in more words:

"We recognise a significant proportion of our fanbase is so loyal they would prefer to believe we are playing an elaborate trick on them, than to believe that we wrote something as bad as the ME3 ending. As the EC is just an expanded version of the original bad ending - because artisitic integrity is important, also egos - we will make sure to leave the door open for the "it was all a dream" option. That way these dedicated fans can continue to think our writers are actually really, really good, and are only pretending to write something bad." 

Modifié par nullobject, 23 juin 2012 - 07:56 .

[edisnooM]

@jbauck

Yeah, I too am looking forward to coming here and seeing what everyone thought. Although with my job being crazy lately I'll be lucky if I can beat the EC on the 26th and manage to get on here, so hopefully you all won't get too far ahead of me. :-)


Also I just noticed that in the picture of Hackett telling Joker to disengage, Garrus is standing behind him. That makes that scene a little bit more irksome, I still don't see how they're going to explain our squad getting back up to the Normandy in the middle of a warzone on the ground, in the air, and orbit, and then have them all being OK with bugging out.

And considering the EC is apparently only 10 minutes, I feel like everything is going to be really rushed one sentence explanations.

"Thank goodness you developed a teleporter Tali."

"I found these sealed orders from Shepard, they say to run as far as we can if s/he gets blasted by Harbinger."

I'm finding it more and more difficult to stay optimistic about this whole deal.

[SimonTheFrog]

Seijin8 wrote...


@everyone: I am studiously staying away from the blog. I cannot believe anything they think they are doing will manifest in the way they think it will, so what they have to say on the subject is somewhere between deceptive and irrelevant.

Yes, I have the same feeling. Especially these three people have shown in the past that their reality just doesn't match with the reality of the users on the other side of the wire. 
The problem is, though, that with the hype they built up before the release they mostly nailed exactly what our hopes and dreams about the game were. So they DO understand our psyche.

But nowadays, ever since release, I felt like i can't agree to a single word they say. 

And it is a bit painful to have that feeling, to be honest. That's why i will stay away from whatever they think they have to say to us.

I'd like to read a synopsis, though, at some point


EDIT:

If

"Or in more words:

"We recognise a significant proportion of our fanbase is so loyal they would prefer to believe we are playing an elaborate trick on them, than to believe that we wrote something as bad as the ME3 ending. As the EC is just an expanded version of the original bad ending - because artisitic integrity is important, also egos - we will make sure to leave the door open for the "it was all a dream" option. That way these dedicated fans can continue to think our writers are actually really, really good, and are only pretending to write something bad."" 

is the synopsis, then I didn't really want to know that eiter 

Modifié par SimonTheFrog, 23 juin 2012 - 08:36 .

[helloween7]

I've been thinking and there's exactly one thing Hackett can say to Joker that would make him leave, and only one. Here's the gist of it: "Grab the crew, go to Ilos, drop the Kodiak on the Conduit".

Sadly, I doubt that's what they'll do.

My only hope now is thay they've added a fouth option to reject the Catalyst and fight the war conventionally, because there's simply no way any of my Shepards can accept at face value anything Casper says past "I control the Reapers".

[Ieldra]

helloween7 wrote...
I've been thinking and there's exactly one thing Hackett can say to Joker that would make him leave, and only one. Here's the gist of it: "Grab the crew, go to Ilos, drop the Kodiak on the Conduit".

Sadly, I doubt that's what they'll do.

My only hope now is thay they've added a fouth option to reject the Catalyst and fight the war conventionally, because there's simply no way any of my Shepards can accept at face value anything Casper says past "I control the Reapers".

I hope they've made significant changes to the Catalyst dialogue, including more exposition and being able to "investigate". That won't save the ending from the thematic shift (I don't think that can be done), but at least the dialogue could be changed to make sense.

[drayfish]

No context! I'm a man with no context at all; so take all of the following comments with mounds of salt. 
 
 
Firstly (and I'm sorry to raise the dreaded words, KitaSaturnyne, but I have to ask...) I'm concerned about the comments being released concerning Indoctrination Theory. So the devs had said that they are intentionally not going to disprove it? Wha? 
 
Perhaps I've fundamentally misread the point of Indoctrination theory, but I was under the impression that it only worked if Shepard awoke (no matter what ending you chose; that part I think I did misinterpret), and continued the fight in post-ending DLC. Clearly, based on the official release information, that's not happening now. So if IT is just left as an unconfirmed possibility, doesn't that just mean that Shepard remains a broken, bewildered mess, bleeding out in a pile of rubble? Surely that's not better? That doesn't work as resolution, doesn't work thematically (except in the most grim, dissatisfying way possible), doesn't answer what happens anywhere in the universe beside Shepard's psyche. Won't leaving the IT unconfirmed be just as bad, if not worse than outright disproving it?
 
I know raising the topic is dangerous; believe me, I'm not trying to re-debate its merits, just wondering at the logic of remaining open-ended like that. If the purpose of the Extended Cut truly was clarity, leaving an intentional obfuscation seems antithetical, and rather runs the risk of only further screwing over people's justified investment.
 
...But again: salt. Take these words with a handful of pretzels. Eat them.
 
 
@ delta_vee: I agree, I think I got a slightly defensive tone on that podcast also. 
 
Perhaps it's my imagination (and of course everything is always clouded by PR-doublespeak and the rosy-glasses of marketing), but I don't ever remember the developers describing the story (singular) that they wanted to tell before these past few months. As far as I recall there was 'no canon', the player was the author, there were multiple possibilities, tailored endings, etc. Clearly they have to program in the parameters, need to write the material in order for the player to chose their path through the branching potentiality, but previous to this whole ending debacle I do not recall a time in which such definitive ownership was expressed over the course of the narrative. 
 
And if such a singular, conclusive vision was always their intent, I am curious (and a little scared) to see what the final product will be in three (?!) days, when their efforts to both include the subjective player's experience and the inviolability of their authorial purpose once again collide. 
 
Maybe they can do it – but I have to agree with CulturalGeekGirl, and much of the other sentiment being expressed throughout these last few pages: I struggle to see how that can be possible if the plot beats of the ending remain firm.  Particularly if my Tess Shepard does not have the ability (as helloween7 notes) to just say 'no'.
 
I look forward to being proved embarrassingly wrong, but am not allowing myself to get lost in hope.
 
And once more: salty goodness. I'm taking a dip in the Dead Sea here... See? Floating.

Modifié par drayfish, 23 juin 2012 - 01:35 .

[BigglesFlysAgain]

@Drayfish

I think your right about the IT, its merits aside I think there are only a few people who would like to use it as a crutch to avoid the current ending as a kind of fanfiction, most people who follow it are/were fully expecting the big reveal "woo-hoo we're right!" moment, and it looks like they won't get it.

If they are not going to say IT was right or wrong, it might as well be wrong for most people anyway, since there is no chance of any more post ending content it will have to stay a less credible theory. It seems to be a fence siting measure sadly.

[jbauck]

Between drayfish dropping "branching potentiality" in the thread, Fapmaster mentioning that Schroedinger, apparently, has a Plot Box sitting around in his lab somewhere (I think it's underneath the cat-in-a-box, personally) and the Arc of the Covenant/Leviathan of Dis talk several pages back ... all I can think about the EC right now is "Don't Open It - It Will Melt Your Face Off".

But who am I kidding? I'm totally opening it. I've been fully prepared for BioWare to double-down on their bad ending since they first announced the EC, because their EC announcement indicated that they failed to complete the first step of problem solving: correctly identify the problem.

They even failed to recognize just why IT Theory is compelling to people: it leaves the door open for a post-ending DLC that confirms it. If they're not going to confirm it - if that post-ending DLC that lets Shepard wake up and continue the story with a real ending never materializes - they might as well just go ahead and deny it. After the EC, that last shred of hope the IT gives its adherents is gone.

Damn - now Schroedinger's got Pandora's Box stashed away somewhere in that lab of his. Is hope dead? Is it alive? Open the box .... open the box .........

[deliphicovenant42]

@jbauck
I just read your blog post on the ending and want to say thank you for so eloquently laying out the problems with the ending. It is strangely cathartic to read the various posts that are out there, including the OP of this thread, giving voice to that complex nest of emotions I have from the way the game ended. Having my amorphous thoughts put into concrete words makes it easier to distance myself from my hatred of the ending.

With all this discussion of the contents of various boxes, I keep hearing Brad Pitt's line from Seven in an endless loop: "What's in the box????"

While that connection strikes me as funny in a gallows-humor kind of way, it doesn't seem to bode well for the eventual EC reveal.

[AchesOfDoom]

I am so dissapointed...

Modifié par AchesOfDoom, 23 juin 2012 - 04:00 .

[jbauck]

@deliphicovenant42 - Glad you liked it. I think "strangely cathartic" is spot on ... between this thread and writing a giant wall of text, that's what I experienced. That's why I'm not upset about the idea that the EC is going to be more of the same - I want to see what's in the box, but I'm just not that invested in it anymore. If it's a pile of dung, I can just shrug and say "Well, that's what I thought ..."

I've never actually seen Seven. For someone who spends a great deal of time playing violent video games, I have this weird aversion to gory movies. I think I'm developing an aversion to unopened boxes ... they're kind of terrifying, really.

[BigglesFlysAgain]

I can't think of anything as clever as the Schroedinger experiment or Pandora's box, but the idea of the EC does remind me of some hideous toolbox at the back of the garage that I have never opened, with a disturbing smell emanating from it. And then I decide to have my Easter Clearout... wow thats terrible

@AchesOfDoom
Did you edit your post or did a mod do it? It was obviously a bit offensive but I think if mods are going to edit or remove things they should do it properly and state why, not replace it with some comment that they think is funny.

Modifié par BigglesFlysAgain, 23 juin 2012 - 04:41 .

[Seijin8]

What if Pandora's Box is *inside* Schroedinger's Box?

Oh, right. Synthesis. Nevermind.

Anywho, jbauck, I think you are right. Its likely to be a solution based on a misdiagnosis of the problem. And yeah, morbid curiosity, but I am going to wait until the wee dark hours to light it off and see what happens.

[edisnooM]

About saying no to the Catalyst, as much as I would absolutely love for that to be an option, I really am starting to doubt that will have been put in, especially since they said they're not putting in new endings but merely "expanding and clarifying" on the existing ones.

They've got ten minutes to work with apparently, so I'm figuring a few minutes to hand wave the bigger plot holes, maybe a couple minutes to talk (not listen) to the Catalyst, a couple to show our war assets fighting (hopefully), and then a few for whatever epilogue they decide will somehow explain and make it all better.

Maybe they'll knock it out of the park, but I'm thinking having comfort food on standby might not be a bad idea.


Oh and maybe an extra minute of Buzz Aldrin fighting the replicant that took his form and kidnapped that child.