5087 réponses à ce sujet

[BigglesFlysAgain]

@edisnooM

I would like a "No thank you" option too, even it it just cuts to critical mission failure, or the catalyst just shoots you down by saying, "you can just do nothing, but then everything you care about will be destroyed" ect so even if its not a real option, no one can say their shepard could not give indifference a chance

Modifié par BigglesFlysAgain, 23 juin 2012 - 05:58 .

[delta_vee]

It occurs to me, rather suddenly, that despite the ominous portents we've seen in those screenshots of the EC, there is still potential for salvage. Not to say it's necessarily possible to make us love the game again like we did, but to impart a certain acceptance.

- The Hackett line about withdrawal could not only serve to justify the Normandy's retreat (ugh), but also to allow for the allied fleets to jump home before the whole relay network goes up in flames. Small comfort, and still wrecks the setting in my eyes, but it's at least a nod towards the unpleasant implications of stranding everyone at Sol. Another shot seems to show Tali and a geth on what I imagine to be Rannoch, so I believe this is at least implied. We shall see.
- That big chart seen in a couple shots is, well, big. They've also told us to start way back at the Cerberus base. Perhaps the divergence begins earlier than we initially expected. We shall see.
- Most importantly, the chief source of the thematic revulsion most here felt is encapsulated in the Catalyst conversation. We may still suffer the Starbrat and his Ending-O-Tron RGB Edition, but the context of those decisions may change drastically. I have no idea if Glowboy's scene will be substantially changed, or the original dialogue merely reinserted, but there's a chance that the decision itself might be modified from its original, revolting state. We shall see.

It's faint hope, for sure, and my disillusion with the series as a whole and this game in particular has festered too long to be fully erased, but perhaps I can be brought to view this as merely disappointing instead of a full-blown travesty.

[edisnooM]

Where is the picture with Tali and a Geth?

Edit: Also yeah, I have some faint hope that they will manage something that will make it a bit better, but from what they're saying and what we've seen previously it's getting pretty hard to keep a rosy outlook.

Modifié par edisnooM, 23 juin 2012 - 07:08 .

[delta_vee]

Here:
http://na.llnet.biow...ed_cut-05-p.jpg

[edisnooM]

Hmm interesting. The lighting does kind of remind me of Rannoch, and with the buildings it looks like it might have been rebuilt. Also it could be that it's just a single frame of a cutscene, but it looks kind of like a still shot. Maybe they're planning on a Fallout like slideshow?

And if this is just elaborating on what was originally there, were we suppose to infer that the Victory fleet left Sol the first time round? Because I never really got that. And if Jokers ordered to withdraw does that mean the other human ships are leaving too? Because I find the image of everyone abandoning Earth and Shepard a bit depressing.

"Uh, yeah, bye everyone. I'll just stay here with the weird glowing kid, it's not like you owe me for saving you all and finding all your lost knick-knacks or anything."

[KitaSaturnyne]

Just echoing what I said in the EC sticky thread, since it'll probably be hard to find there pretty soon (because you know, wading through 150 pages of insightful debate and wonderfully constructed, super-compelling, text walls is MUCH easier.)

"The EC has left me caught on a very thin line between optimism and dread. On one hand, it's great that things like the relative lack of content in the ending is being addressed, and that it will reflect more of the choices we've made throughout the trilogy.

On the other hand, the scene with the Catalyst, the very scene that caused such a profound and fundamental disconnect for so many people, seems to be remaining. We are still left with this scene that changes the conflict of the story, at the last possible second. The central conflict of the story was never "Shepard vs. Inevitable Technological Singularity", but rather "The Reapers vs. Everybody". And not only do we learn the Reapers' motivations, which turns them from super powerful killer machines into some ghost child's personal maids, we're forced into making three choices that, at their core, require Shepard to be able to justify an action that's just as, if not more, reprehensible than what the Reapers were already doing to us.

In addition, justifying Joker's retreat from the battle may be possible on some level, but when it comes down to it, it's still Mr. "I'm-With-You-Till-The-End" turning heel and running at the behest of someone who's not his commanding officer. This in itself ends up providing even more of a thematic disconnect in addition to the Catalyst scene.

TL; DR version for those who take part in a text-based message board but don't like to actually READ

I'm quite eager to see the results and consequences of my choices play out in this epilogue, as it certainly addresses one of the major sticking points of the endings in their original form. As far as the root of the problem, the rather violent and upsetting thematic disconnect, its continued presence fills me with dread."

PS - As you can probably tell, I read jbauck's blog post, and it is a wonderful read. It had the words that are at the heart of the problems with the ending to ME3: Thematic disconnect. Though, that means I have to apologize profusely to drayfish, since I didn't extrapolate that from "thematically revolting". Sorry, drayfish. I'll be eating my words with extra salt now.

Modifié par KitaSaturnyne, 23 juin 2012 - 07:54 .

[edisnooM]

Also I just thought of something.

Remember when they told us to hang on to our Mass Effect 3 saves before it came out, and someone after the ending thing started said I think to keep it forever or something along those lines. But why exactly? If this is as far as the universe goes, and there isn't any post-game DLC what exactly is the point of hanging onto our game saves? I made a joke many pages ago about them being collectors items in a few years time, but other than that any ideas?

[KitaSaturnyne]

edisnooM wrote...

Also I just thought of something.

Remember when they told us to hang on to our Mass Effect 3 saves before it came out, and someone after the ending thing started said I think to keep it forever or something along those lines. But why exactly? If this is as far as the universe goes, and there isn't any post-game DLC what exactly is the point of hanging onto our game saves? I made a joke many pages ago about them being collectors items in a few years time, but other than that any ideas?

Um... posterity? That's all that comes to mind. Though I have to mention that I already deleted my first playthrough in the wake of the face import fix, so that's already lost on me.

Modifié par KitaSaturnyne, 23 juin 2012 - 07:57 .

[edisnooM]

Maybe we can all sit around in a few years time smoking pipes, monocles firmly screwed in place, port glass swirling, as we discuss our various saves.

"Ah yes, this is the one where I punched Han Gerrel, very good vintage."

"Hmm, hmm, yes quite."


Edit:

@KitaSaturnyne 

Good post. The EC related one, not the posterity one. Although that's good too. :-)

Modifié par edisnooM, 23 juin 2012 - 08:03 .

[KitaSaturnyne]

@Mani Mani

Thank you.

I do relish the image of us sitting in front of a large LCD television, watching said Han Gerrel punching save play out in the name of nostalgia.

"Chaps, remember when the ending wasn't quite as long and empty as this?"

"Quite! Ho ho ho!"

[Grotaiche]

edisnooM wrote...

Also I just thought of something.

Remember when they told us to hang on to our Mass Effect 3 saves before it came out, and someone after the ending thing started said I think to keep it forever or something along those lines. But why exactly? If this is as far as the universe goes, and there isn't any post-game DLC what exactly is the point of hanging onto our game saves? I made a joke many pages ago about them being collectors items in a few years time, but other than that any ideas?

Yeah, I have one : keep your saves because maybe in the future, the community can do something with them. No promises. But maybe some people can actually try to fix things one day. Just saying.

[Sable Phoenix]

This is ironic.

Well, okay.  It's not ironic, in the accurate usage of the word.  It certainly feels that way, though.  Tuesday the 22nd, when the EC is released, is the day I leave for a business trip that will last until Saturday, and depending on how the weekend goes I won't be back until the next week on Sunday or perhaps even Monday.  At which point I'll have a week's worth of "speculation for everyone!" to catch up on.

In a way though, that is a good thing.  I'll get a review by the community of it before I spend the effort to go through it myself.  The days of my blind faith and pre-purchases of BioWare products (I know it's free, that's beside the point) are over, and I want the reassurance that their output will actually be worth my time.  I'm actually looking forward to the EC much more for the discussion it will bring to this thread, rather than for its own merits.

That being said, I still get the distinct impression from the podcast and FAQ that they really do not understand why the endings were so poorly received.  It's not about a "happy ending", you dolts!

Also, this means I need to bite the bullet and do a final proofreading of the analysis post that I've been working on for the past two months before Tuesday.  And then actually post it.  It's four pages long in Word.  I may have overdone it.

Modifié par Sable Phoenix, 23 juin 2012 - 08:39 .

[KitaSaturnyne]

@Sable Phoenix

I honestly, at this point, have absolutely NO idea whether to sympathize with, or envy you.

[Sable Phoenix]

Oh that reminds me, Kita, can you put a link to your noir story in your sig? I didn't download it at the time you posted it (like a moron) and now am not sure how far back I have to go to find it again. I need to read it too! Especially after the glowing words of others here.

[edisnooM]

@Sable Pheonix

I too am not sure whether to envy or feel sorry for you.

Also here is the link to KitaSaturnyne's story: https://skydrive.liv...AHYwuCXTXpigP4o.

Edit:

Although the sig idea is good too, easy access for others in the future. :-)

Edit2: Also that analysis of your's sounds interesting too.

Modifié par edisnooM, 23 juin 2012 - 08:49 .

[KitaSaturnyne]

Sure, Sable. Consider it done. Hopefully the link will work.

[edisnooM]

@Grotaiche

That's an interesting idea.

[Sable Phoenix]

Oh no.  No no no.

Something just struck me, as I read through jbauck's excellent blog and once again began combing through my attempt at exhaustive analysis.  I realized why my instinctual reaction to my initial, inadvertent choice of the Synthesis ending elicited physical nausea.

We're asked to buy the premise that the core conflict of the ME trilogy is synthetic life vs. organic life.  But it's not.  The conflict that we've been fighting for three games (as per jbauck's analysis) is that of synthetic and organic life (everyone) vs. synthetic/organic hybrid life (Reapers).  No five minute conversation is going to wring that conflict out of our perceptions, it has been too firmly pounded into us through the 120 hours we've spent with the story.

The only reason the war we've been fighting for three games exists in the first place is because of Synthesis.

From this perspective Synthesis is unequivocally the worst possible ending.  And it's presented as the best?  How on Earth did they not see this when they wrote it?!

We're being told that the only resolution to the conflict is to stop fighting and become the enemy.  Synthesis is so desirable that the Reapers really do have the right to dominate, enslave, and extinguish in its pursuit, and anyone who resists is inherently in the wrong.  They are the protagonists of the conflict!  We, we the Shepards, we the players, were the actual antagonist of the Mass Effect trilogy the entire time!  And if we choose either of the other two endings, we still are!

May God have mercy on our souls.

It is no wonder the nearly universal reaction to the ending was so intensely and viscerally negative.  We have been told, not verbally but thematically, where we recognize it on an instinctual level far deeper than conscious thought, that we are the bad guy of the story, that all our actions have been evil.

I almost wish this realization hadn't struck me.  I now have zero hope for the EC.  That Synthesis would even be offered as a choice for the end displays such a fundamental betrayal and lack of understanding of their own work that I no longer believe BioWare is physically capable of fixing it.

Modifié par Sable Phoenix, 23 juin 2012 - 09:30 .

[delta_vee]

@Sable

Small nitpick (which perhaps will spiral into a larger one): it's not that we're fighting against synthetic/organic hybridization per se, it's that we're fighting against forced conversion into same. As CGG has pointed out, the setting of ME has been on that road for some time. That doesn't strip Synthesis of its thematic horror, but I think it's an important distinction.

[jbauck]

Yikes - didn't mean to do that to you, Sable Phoenix. Maybe I should retitle it "Abandon All Hope Ye Who Enter Here ..."? Though, I prefer to think that Shepard is the protagonist, and the core conflict is the opposition to the idea that the Reapers have the right to dominate, enslave and extinguish. The ideological battle is the only remaining conflict when the Reapers claim to be on the side of the organics in the synthetics/organics struggle.

To me, Shepard is the protagonist, but can't win the ideological battle, because every ending option concedes that the Reapers are right in some way. I'm genuinely confused by people who believe they "won" ME3.

Edit:  Also, I'd say "synthetic and organic life (everyone) vs. synthetic/organic hybrid life (Reapers)" is the correct description of the literal, concrete conflict, but the thematic conflict is free will, self-determination, and the right to exist vs. a total disregard of free will, self-determination and the right to exist.  One of the things I mentioned in my blog post is that the overall story of ME3 doesn't change substantively if the Reapers are replaced by a malevolent organic race bent on the destruction of everyone in the galaxy if they're technologically superior enough to pull it off.  The Reapers aren't terrifying and villainous because they're part robot - they're terrifying and villainous because they see life in the galaxy as something they have every right to purge, and they've decided to do so.

Modifié par jbauck, 23 juin 2012 - 09:42 .

[Sable Phoenix]

delta_vee wrote...

@Sable

Small nitpick (which perhaps will spiral into a larger one): it's not that we're fighting against synthetic/organic hybridization per se, it's that we're fighting against forced conversion into same. As CGG has pointed out, the setting of ME has been on that road for some time. That doesn't strip Synthesis of its thematic horror, but I think it's an important distinction.

It is a distinction, but I think it's a distinction as makes no difference.  The Reapers were right to force the conversion, and we accept it because our actions at the end also force the conversion on everyone.  The only difference between us and the Reapers is the vector by which it's accomplished.  If we don't accept it, our other two possible choices halt the natural and desirable progression of events.

jbauck wrote...
To me, Shepard is the protagonist, but can't win the ideological battle, because every ending option concedes that the Reapers are right in some way. I'm genuinely confused by people who believe they "won" ME3.

This ideological battle is actually why, regardless of the distinction, the ending results in a Heel Realization, although I doubt it was initially on a conscious level for anyone who played the game.  Yes we all want to believe we're the good guy, but at a very deep level we are being told we're the opposite.  And without exception (unless you play multiplayer, somehow, I literally cannot see how they will resolve this in the EC), Redemption Equals Death.

It's even more thematically revolting than I first thought.

Modifié par Sable Phoenix, 23 juin 2012 - 10:29 .

[KitaSaturnyne]

While I agree with your assessment Sable Phoenix, I disagree that BioWare is incapable of fixing it. However, to do so would require, within the architecture of a video game, that a a great portion of the resources used to originally construct the scene remain. In this case, I believe that no matter what rewrites BioWare considered, we'd still have the scene with the Catalyst. We'd still have the three choices.

Where I find the glimmer of hope though, is that it's totally possible for them to insert new dialogue that completely changes the context of the Catalyst scene, the ending choices, and the consequences that follow.

The main problem in the case of the EC seems to be that they're focusing on the incorrect problem, which I think is a misunderstanding born from their interactions with the fanbase that has responded to this matter. I think it lies with the fans being unable to articulate themselves on anything much more than an emotional level, and that's what BioWare has responded to. Many people questioned the plotholes, and rightly so. Many people were irate at the lack of sufficient goodbyes to their favorite characters, and rightly so. Many were confused by the complete disregard of all the choices they'd made to get to the final point of the story, and again, rightly so.

But compared to the legions of people who argued those points, how many personally informed BioWare of that rather violent thematic disconnect in terms of what it was, and what needed to be done to fix it? I'm willing to wager that we, the people who have come to realize this problem, are a very small minority next to the people who wanted a chance at a happier ending, for Joker turning and running to be justified, or for the problems regarding the EMS to be fixed.

Thus, I believe we're that in the end, while I understand the ME3 dev team's intention regarding this extended cut and I applaud them for addressing the fact that something about the ending needed to be fixed, it's simply going to be an exercise in futility because while they addressed a lot of the problems with the ending, they neglected the very root of the problem. I like how it was pointed out before that it was like a mechanic investigating a flat tire while the engine is burning like an inferno.

That said, I believe it's entirely possible for BioWare to fix it and I believe they are more than capable, but I think fan interaction has confused for them what the problem behind the ending really is. They seem to think it's a matter of spackling over plotholes rather than reconnecting the ending thematically with the rest of the series.

Then again, it's entirely possible that they will in some way. 1.9 gigabytes of bink video is a LOT of content, considering file compression, video resolution and the rest of it. So who knows what will happen.

[Erixxxx]

edisnooM wrote...

Also I just thought of something.

Remember when they told us to hang on to our Mass Effect 3 saves before it came out, and someone after the ending thing started said I think to keep it forever or something along those lines. But why exactly? If this is as far as the universe goes, and there isn't any post-game DLC what exactly is the point of hanging onto our game saves? I made a joke many pages ago about them being collectors items in a few years time, but other than that any ideas?

It has been confirmed several times that the universe goes on. Which means that most likely we're gonna see a ME4 down the line.

[edisnooM]

@Erixxxx

But Casey Hudson has also said that this is the end, and that anything else they do would be prequels etc. Of course subject to the whims of EA. I'm not really sure how they can do ME4 given the different ending choices.

[jbauck]

Sable Phoenix wrote...
<snip>

jbauck wrote...
To me, Shepard is the protagonist, but can't win the ideological battle, because every ending option concedes that
the Reapers are right in some way. I'm genuinely confused by people who believe they "won" ME3.

This ideological battle is actually why, regardless of the distinction, the ending results in a Heel Realization, although I doubt it was initially on a conscious level for anyone who played the game.  Yes we all want to believe we're the good guy, but at a very deep level we are being told we're the opposite. 
<snip>

Here I unequivocally agree - the vague sense of wrongness that it took me a month to articulate in a wall of text blog post was the Heel Realization.  Shepard is either the antagonist, or a protagonist who can't win and commits some kind of atrocity with any of the choices available.

KitaSaturnyne wrote...

Where I find the glimmer of hope though, is that it's totally possible for them to insert new dialogue that completely changes the context of the Catalyst scene, the ending choices, and the consequences that follow.

<snipping excellent words for smaller posts ... I feel a little guilty>

That said, I believe it's entirely possible for BioWare to fix it and I believe they are more than capable, but I think fan interaction has confused for them what the problem behind the ending really is. They seem to think it's a matter of spackling over plotholes rather than reconnecting the ending thematically with the rest of the series.

Then again, it's entirely possible that they will in some way. 1.9 gigabytes of bink video is a LOT of content, considering file compression, video resolution and the rest of it. So who knows what will happen.

I see your "glimmer of hope" in changing the context of the Catalyst scene, and raise you a dawning star in changing the context of the Catalyst itself.  While you're dead on that "thematic disconnect" wasn't one of the things that people were screaming about, "I Hate The Catalyst" was.  BioWare may have gotten the message that the Catalyst-as-Reaper-Creator makes him untrustworthy and many, many people hate him.  Changing that one thing, all by itself, would go a long way towards recontextualizing the ending choices, and while I, personally, think Synthesis is the worst possible ending, I'd have an easier time buying the idea that it's even possible for Shepard to Control the Reapers and the Control ending isn't just a Reaper Trick if the thing that created the Reapers wasn't the one trying to convince me.

Open the box ... open the boooooox...........