5087 réponses à ce sujet

[Fapmaster5000]

Alright, I've now viewed the endings (youtube, because I wasn't playing unless they won me over), and I've gotta say, I've changed my mind on a lot of this:

Control is now the best ending. It's the perfect setup for a series, IN WHICH SHEPARD IS THE MAIN VILLAIN. I hate it as "the ending", but the fact that it exists is hilarious, and it is, on its own, a pretty damn good "why I am a villain" rant. The creepy music works.

Synthesis is now even more f*cking sunshine and rainbows, like they just keep trying to paper over the creepy, and keep insisting,"THIS CAN'T BE DONE WITHOUT GLOWING EYES". Yep, eugenics are the future, and tolerance and diplomacy are simply a pipe dream. The fact that they keep slamming me in the face with "and this is the bestest evar" simply puts sand in my eyes.

Destroy is alright. I like the feel of it, the "holy crap, we just survived the mother of all wars" sad heroism of the music, but the fact that it has to be attained through what is at worst genocide and at best a cold sacrifice of millions of soldiers puts a stain on that future. To win me over, Destroy should have shown a remorseful, repentant Shepard/galaxy trying to put Synthetics back together, and do it right this time.

Now, Reject was AWESOME, until it devolved into Bioware TROLLOLOLOL'ing at us. I was totally onboard with the "go out on our own terms" theme, and the "So be it, Jedi" from Harbalyst. That was, until Liara's dialogue turned into "we all died because we were too stupid to choose synthesis, which you totally should". If they'd just left Liara's dialogue as "we fought them, we hurt them, and though we die, they have not won. They have not one until no one stands against them, and someone will always stand. Their cycle will end, as all things must. Enclosed is our history, our science, our philosophy. It is everything we were, everything we dreamed. It is everything the Reapers feared. Add to it with your own, for we what we leave you is a sword of stars, aimed at the heart of darkness itself. Take up this weapon, for it is your birthright, and never surrender to fear." I would have been completely sold. Instead, it was "lol we too stupid to apperciate this artistic intergritty".

And, why, or why, couldn't there have been a Refuse and Succeed option? Enough EMS and you can flip the bird, blow them up, and carve your own path (like synthesis, a united galaxy, like a destroy, a free future, and done without acceding to the little starbrat)? Was giving the players that ending (wildly desired) simply too far outside the bounds of the series? You could triumph over sovereign in act one, you could dominate the suicide mission in act two, why suddenly is it herp-derp-obey-the-starbaby in act three?

At this point, I'm not protesting that the endings are crap. These extended endings are much improved, and each hammers home a point. My real problem is that, after 2.99 games of "choose your story", it's suddenly "pick synthesis or you suck" and worse "if you disagree, you're dumb". I actually really liked both Destroy and Control, for different reasons, but the backhanded "faff off" of Reject has really just convinced me of one thing:

This truly was the ending they intended, and they delivered it. I purchased it, and I will not ask that they change it. Instead, I will simply remember the story they chose to tell, the way they chose to tell it, and how they ignored their own fans with a backhand, and not purchase any further Bioware products until well after the dust has settled.

I've been a loyal pre-order customer for years, scooping up every dropping. They still tell good stories, but the disregard and willful ignorance shone in the pre-EC interviews, and in the delivery method of the EC content, simply demonstrates that I am no longer the audience they wish to court. I may still play Bioware games. They do a good job, but I'm no longer a patron, I'm just a customer, and they'll have to win my cash, every time.

-FM5K

PS: Did anyone else notice how they didn't really fix the "why did Joker run?" problem? They just knock it about one layer deeper in the narrative. "Oh, so Hackett ordered them to run, and then Garrus hosed me - thanks, buddy, glad you had my back 'til the end - and Joker simply agreed!" *pause*

Wait a second? So, Joker didn't screw me, Garrus did? And Hackett ordered the retreat because... why? Evacuate? In our moment of triumph? I thought this was a last ditch gambit, a hail mary offensive, not simply "get the ball to the two yard line and then SEND IN THE BAND!" Why were they running before they'd completed the objective? Because the Crucible might kill them? Guys, if the Reapers poke the Crucible before it powers up, they will come and kill you. How do they know the Crucible had a lit fuse? Maybe it was just doing a cleaning cycle, and Hackett slapped the "oh f*ck it and panic" button?

/tangent

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Well don't worry... the vast majority of the internet sees absolutely no problem with killing off a sentient species, considers destroy an almost unequivocally happy ending, and really does not care what happens to anyone as long as it's implied they'll reunite with their LI.

I've never felt less like the target audience for something in my life.

This also had to coincide with a particularly bad bout of insomnia, so I'm a little... unstable today. Oh well.

I don't understand how anyone could see those three endings and not feel like... "This didn't have to happen this way. This isn't the best solution, it isn't even a good solution, and I know it."

I guess it's back to books and JRPGs for me. I'm not the kind of person they want playing Mass Effect.

[jbauck]

@Hawk227 - Thank you for those links. Wow. I don't see anything in those clarifications that make the outcome of Control and Synthesis less creepy than I was imagining in my head, so ... I don't see a gain there. In fact, I think this particular presentation of those two options are likely to change some hearts and minds - like, people will decide they don't like those endings anymore, now that they've gotten a closer look at what they mean.

@FM5K

The bit about Shepard being the villain? Exactly how I saw it. I ... kind of can't believe they did that.

As far as the "you suck if you didn't pick synthesis" trolling in Refuse ... I still find Refuse to be the best ending. I don't care if BioWare thinks I'm an idiot because I fail to appreciate the way in which their artistic vision dismantled everything I thought the series was about. Though, your speech was way, way better.

Edit:
@CGG

One of the worst things about the expanded cut destroy option is that the Catalyst now entirely glosses over committing genocide.  He says that yes, all synthetic life will be wiped out, but no longer mentions the Geth and EDI specifically.  By not getting specific about who's going to die, the Catalyst starts the process of dehumanizing the genocide victims for me.  It's not The Geth, who are my allies, and it's not EDI, who is a member of my crew ... it's just "synthetics".  The same "synthetics" of the infamous "synthetics vs. organics" struggle, who will eventually wipe out all organics if we don't stop them ...

I really don't understand why they did that.  On the one hand, it's to ... let people off the hook so they can pick Destroy more comfortably?  But on the other ... why not just have a really high EMS capable of tuning Destroy to only kill Reapers?  If it's supposed to be this really hard choice, why dehumanize the victims of the Destroy ending?  I'm really boggled that specific mention of the Geth and EDI were removed.

Despite their efforts to make people who pick Refuse feel dumb, I feel ridiculously better about the idea that we all die fighting than I do about any of the three original endings.

Modifié par jbauck, 27 juin 2012 - 12:31 .

[M0keys]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Well don't worry... the vast majority of the internet sees absolutely no problem with killing off a sentient species, considers destroy an almost unequivocally happy ending, and really does not care what happens to anyone as long as it's implied they'll reunite with their LI.

I've never felt less like the target audience for something in my life.

hey

I'm here for you in our microscopic demographic, whatever that's worth

we can be sad little unique customers together

us and half the people in this topic can just go form a club in some digital coffee house and be all agreeable and such with each other

[JamieCOTC]

I thought the EC helped, but BW is still obsessed w/ the singularity, which to me is like being obsessed over how aliens built the pyramids in Egypt. Aside from a a lack of "refuse and win" option it's probably the best they could come up with and still keep their narrow concept of why the Reapers exist. The idea that synthesis is the final evolution of life is absurd and should have been removed from the game. Life won't stop evolving until the end of the universe and even then, who knows. Oh well.

[Hawk227]

jbauck wrote...

As far as the "you suck if you didn't pick synthesis" trolling in Refuse ... I still find Refuse to be the best ending. I don't care if BioWare thinks I'm an idiot because I fail to appreciate the way in which their artistic vision dismantled everything I thought the series was about. Though, your speech was way, way better.

That's exactly how I felt. Shepard's little speech about self-determination and the Catalyst's craziness really cemented it. The speech in particular reflected the actual themes of the story, and I genuinely was left feeling like its the best ending, even though Bioware clearly doesn't (Synthesis gets so much love its kind of surreal). The little bit about "The crucible didn't work" was a bit annoying, but the other options were really made a lot less attractive by the added content.

What I thought was really interesting was that Bioware showed their hand regarding synthetics. They genuinely don't think they're alive, or that they understand organics or any of those lessons that EDI and Legion taught us. It was kind of amazing.

Also, there wasn't any war assets depicted! One of the biggest superficial complaints wasn't addressed, I thought the Rachni were a lock to feature. Mostly they just gave us 3 roughly identical longer cutscenes with a different narration and a few edited slides.

[sharkboy421]

Hello all.  I've lurked around this thread for a while now and really enjoy reading it.

With the EC I figured I'd quickly toss in my two cents and echo many of the sentiments already posted.  The EC is much better than the original ending and it does address some of the vagueness that was present before.  But its basically meaningless as it failed to address the actual problem with the ending: it does not fit with Mass Effect.

The refusal ending was an interesting addition but it felt like Bioware was just lashing out at the fans.  I am extremely disappointed that this is how everything ends.

[Alent]

The retcons are the worst part, in my opinion. They are essentially an admission of guilt without the will or caring to actually change what was wrong with the ending.

[D24O]

Hawk227 wrote...

In Control, Shepard with the Reaper synthesizer talks in the third person over imperial march like music and tells us about how he now has an Army that noone will dare oppose while shots of Reapers feverishly fixing the Relays is shown. It's all very creepy.

I didn't get that. My Shepard talked about using the Reapers to re-build what the many had fought for, and to keep them safe to allow for them to build their own future. My Control was actually really hopeful, much more so than compared to how aggressive that Shepard was.

[clennon8]

Hello all. I'm not sure why I haven't partaken in this thread before now, but I want you to know that this is one of the best ones going. I totally agree with the gist of what most of you are saying. The EC did offer a few cosmetic improvements, as well as a somewhat intriguing (if anemic) fourth ending. Ultimately, though, the ending of this game remains fundamentally broken. It is a major disappointment.

[secretagentbw]

sharkboy421 wrote...

The refusal ending was an interesting addition but it felt like Bioware was just lashing out at the fans.  I am extremely disappointed that this is how everything ends.

I am happy with the endings (Destroy in my case), but I do agree completely with your comment on the "fourth" choice. It is a not very subtle sucker punch to the people who complained about the original ending... "You want Shepard to go out on his/her own terms? Fine, the reapers win then."

With that being said, I think these endings are MUCH better than the original. They make more sense of some parts (What happens to the fleet, companions, mass relays, why the normandy crashed, although I still don't get why they crashed and none of the other ships did). Watching them, I can't still can't believe that Bioware thought those original endings were acceptable in any way, shape or form. I think if these endings had been the original ones, many people still wouldn't have liked them, but there wouldn't have been such an uproar.

[frypan]

I’ll post this below but need to go back and have a read of what folks have said. Hope I’m not doubling up.

Some of us may not have got the ending we wanted, but as a metaphor, the ending sure seems to pack a lot of punch. The themes of the game seem to come out quite strong in the ending, however I suspect I can now add “morally repugnant” to “thematically revolting” when describing the game.

This is largely the result of the added 4th option, which provides some possible insights into the developer’s vision of the game, their general worldview and attitude towards their fans. The message seems clear as it is a response to feedback, and makes me suspect it has been included to make a particular statement.

I may not agree with it, but this one fingered salute to free will pretty much summarises Bioware’s attitude throughout the game. It is not possible for you, the player, to personally win by rejecting the Starchild, and victory through strength of will and purity of purpose is simply not possible. To reject the Starchild’s solution is to fail, lose everything you care about, and rely on the lesson of history being learned sometime down the track.

As a metaphor for life this is quite clear. The individual cannot stand up to those more powerful, and must accept the decrees of creatures more powerful than themselves no matter how morally repugnant these are. The strong dictate terms to the weak, even in ostensible defeat.

I may be reading a lot into this, but as a symbol of corporate culture this is perfect. Bioware themselves were probably faced with the same choice a few years back. An individual entity is like Shepherd, exercising years of free will. Eventually however he/she may be presented with, or seek a relationship that involves a loss of self, and assimilation with a much more powerful organisation. In game and real life, the loss of self is to an entity much more powerful, with motives and methods distasteful to more morally minded folks.

Like Shepherd, the victims of such organisations can choose to lose their individuality, through synthesis with the corporate culture of the dominant organisation, or through the sacrifice of values such as respect for diversity. This is most chillingly portrayed in the destruction of the Geth the only way to ensure Shepherd’s individuality survives in its some semblance of its original form. Sure, the catalyst is destroyed in the process, but like any cycle of destruction, the message in this case it occurs within the confines of that organisations value system. “You can defeat me, but to do so you must become as amoral as I am”

Maybe this is why I am seeing more expressions in favour of control now. Control may be an expression of the idea that individual success is achievable; however it is a more extreme version of synthesis. An individual can rise to the top within such a culture, but will lose everything that makes them human, or take on the characteristics of a despot that rules by paragon or renegade variations of whim.

It should be said that these interpretations are possible in the way the original endings were presented. However they are only given clarity through the addition of an ending that shows the consequences of rejection. As Starchild’s voice changes, we see what happens to those who choose to dissent or refuse such a fate. The mask comes off, the machinery of the powerful entity swings into motion and crushes them. As mentioned above, victory at best lies in the distant future as a lesson to others – those present at the time have no such hope. The 4th choice allows this interpretation by presented as irrefutable the irresistible power of such organisations, which destroy or assimilate all they come into contact with.

For me, this is a soul crushing world view but thematically consistent with the rest of the game. As has been argued in this thread, crewmates die arbitrarily or are destroyed in such transformative processes. Individuals can struggle all they want, can have all the moral strength of right on their side, but they are still at the whims of forces more powerful than themselves. Hence, there is no chance to save characters such as Thane. Shepherd watches impotently as Thane fights for his life and falls against Kai Leng.

Similarly the fates of Mordin and Wrex, Legion and Tali are decided as a result of the results of greater conflicts around them. To further make my point, Samara is one case I found particularly hard to understand when playing the game, but now makes sense. She loses the best, but most wayward of her daughters in ME2. In ME3 she stands to lose at least one more, and may even die herself. No chance of avoiding at least some misery or loss in the grand scale of things.

All miserable stuff, but this seems in keeping with the underlying subtext of the game and the impotence of individuals. I’m not sure if the message was intended to be read in such detail, but the 4th option was put in there as a response to fan outrage and therefore a direct message of some sort. Whether a “stuff you” to such fans or not, it does allow a meta-textual understanding of the ending. Even if unintended, it bodes poorly for the worldview of the authors involved, when such a message was synchronous with the course and resolution of the game.

In this sense, the extra option clarifies for me that “thematically revolting” does not equate with thematically inconsistent. The message is one I can’t say I care for, but is a powerful one, the more so because it differs so much from the first two games. Whether this is due to a change in staff, or general disillusionment among the writers at some recent events I don’t know. Bioware have always expressed themselves strongly in terms of contemporary issues, and maybe this ending reflects a disheartened worldview in general.

I do know it’s not a message I personally want to share. While the team congratulate themselves over the closure of this episode, I hope they ask themselves if it is one they too want to share with future generations.

I also still don’t know if this is a message directed at the fans relationship with the company, or Bioware’s relationship with EA. It may simply be an unintended message arising from the ending debacle. However intended or not, I think it is potent and consistent with the rest of the game.

You just can’t beat the system.

Thank you very much then. I think get the message and really hope I’m wrong. However I’m not sure I really want to play such games.

EDIT: Ah, ninja'd by jbaucks use of morally repugnant. And I've still got ******'s mighty post, along with plenty of others to go!

Modifié par frypan, 27 juin 2012 - 01:31 .

[Fapmaster5000]

Now: check this out, the plot of ME4.

Control is the official ending. It's been decades since the War ended, and everything is being rebuilt, restored to perfection. It is always perfection. Everyone is so grateful to The Shepard for its salvation. Everyone always tells The Shepard how grateful they are, even as they quake in terror before its throne on the citadel. The Watchers patrol the depths of space, watching for any sign of disorder. They are The Shepard's loyal hounds, incapable of mercy or compromise. The galaxy will be great, again, no matter the price. Sacrifices will be made.

A thriving black market runs through Omega, where any manner of distraction serves as contraband. There is no inefficiency inside this perfect order, and even things as mundane as alcohol, music, or movies are strictly controlled. Non owns firearms, no nations have guns on their ships. There is no need, speaks The Shepard. The Watchers will protect you in the black.

Pirates live free, but in fear, skirting the Watchers many eyes with modified Tantalus drives. Crime thrives, because The Shepard cannot see what is too well hidden. There is cruel, inhuman perfection above, and a roiling sea of chaos beneath. Trapped between these two worlds, our new hero is a war orphan turned duct rat, bouncing between half-decent jobs and criminal syndicates, lured by their freedom, repulsed by their depravity, and always, like everyone, mindful of the great red eyes of the Watchers, as they mantle onto the station, clambering over it, looking in every window and booming out their pronouncements. Our hero has heard that The Shepard was once a hero, but he/she knows only the tyrant.

Then, one day, after a simple smuggling job goes wrong, fleeing from the hunting Watchers, with a wounded Spectre shoved in the cargo hold and a warrant on his/her head, our hero encounters a crazy old Turian, with a plan to "put down a bad dog, and save an old friend", as is dragged into a world of lost hopes and broken dreams, and a mad scheme to challenge even the Citadel itself.

This is Mass Effect 4.

BONUS SCENE: Old Man Garrus, preparing a refitted Normandy to ram the Reaper-Shepard, declaring, "See you at the bar, buddy." before engaging a manually-programmed FTL hop, directly into the abomination's eye socket.

[Fapmaster5000]

Frypan wrote...

Sad snip of epic post.

*honest slow clap*

Brilliant post.  Really echoes how I feel, if not in every detail, then definately in tone and tenor.  

Thank you for that.

Modifié par Fapmaster5000, 27 juin 2012 - 01:34 .

[Blind Rapture]

frypan wrote...

Thank you for the well thought out and well written post.

I think "morally repugnant" is the perfect way to describe all 3 choices and I echo your feelings that the Bioware writing team behind this ending needs to take a serious look at what they've done here and figure out if what they've written is exactly what they were trying to say.

Modifié par Blind Rapture, 27 juin 2012 - 01:37 .

[Fapmaster5000]

Blind Rapture wrote...

frypan wrote...

GLORY!!!!!

Thank you for the well thought out and well written post.

I think "morally repugnant" is the perfect way to describe all 3 choices and I echo your feelings that the Bioware writing team behind this ending needs to take a serious look at what they've done here and figure out if what they've written is exactly what they were trying to say.

And may God have mercy on their souls.  

(*INTERNET DISCLAIMER*  That was absurdist humor, not really trying to call out writing I disagree with to be a sin, but I thought it matched the tone of the post.  It's hard to get "tone of voice" through a text box.)

[KitaSaturnyne]

Fapmaster5000 wrote...

Now: check this out, the plot of ME4.

Control is the official ending. It's been decades since the War ended, and everything is being rebuilt, restored to perfection. It is always perfection. Everyone is so grateful to The Shepard for its salvation. Everyone always tells The Shepard how grateful they are, even as they quake in terror before its throne on the citadel. The Watchers patrol the depths of space, watching for any sign of disorder. They are The Shepard's loyal hounds, incapable of mercy or compromise. The galaxy will be great, again, no matter the price. Sacrifices will be made.

A thriving black market runs through Omega, where any manner of distraction serves as contraband. There is no inefficiency inside this perfect order, and even things as mundane as alcohol, music, or movies are strictly controlled. Non owns firearms, no nations have guns on their ships. There is no need, speaks The Shepard. The Watchers will protect you in the black.

Pirates live free, but in fear, skirting the Watchers many eyes with modified Tantalus drives. Crime thrives, because The Shepard cannot see what is too well hidden. There is cruel, inhuman perfection above, and a roiling sea of chaos beneath. Trapped between these two worlds, our new hero is a war orphan turned duct rat, bouncing between half-decent jobs and criminal syndicates, lured by their freedom, repulsed by their depravity, and always, like everyone, mindful of the great red eyes of the Watchers, as they mantle onto the station, clambering over it, looking in every window and booming out their pronouncements. Our hero has heard that The Shepard was once a hero, but he/she knows only the tyrant.

Then, one day, after a simple smuggling job goes wrong, fleeing from the hunting Watchers, with a wounded Spectre shoved in the cargo hold and a warrant on his/her head, our hero encounters a crazy old Turian, with a plan to "put down a bad dog, and save an old friend", as is dragged into a world of lost hopes and broken dreams, and a mad scheme to challenge even the Citadel itself.

This is Mass Effect 4.

BONUS SCENE: Old Man Garrus, preparing a refitted Normandy to ram the Reaper-Shepard, declaring, "See you at the bar, buddy." before engaging a manually-programmed FTL hop, directly into the abomination's eye socket.

Um, so yeah. Totally didn't get that vibe from the new Control ending. I instead got "Shepard is going to guard us all using the Reapers, watching over everyone in their new form", not "I'm the new dictator in town and you're all bent to my will".

So I'm either willing to bet that you're being facetious, or the endings change depending on Paragon/ Renegade score. I await all derisions.

Modifié par KitaSaturnyne, 27 juin 2012 - 01:42 .

[frypan]

Thanks Fapmaster

Just to clarify - I haven't myself gone all emo here or anything, but am trying to head canon something out of this ending. Very hard to see the positive, but hopefully your evil embrace of control will cheer me up!

[DistantUtopia]

KitaSaturnyne wrote...

Um, so yeah. Totally didn't get that vibe from the new Control ending. I instead got "Shepard is going to guard us all using the Reapers, watching over everyone in their new form", not "I'm the new dictator in town and you're all bent to my will".

So I'm either willing to bet that you're being facetious, or the endings change depending on Paragon/ Renegade score. I await all derisions.

Yes, the dialog does change if you're renegade.

[D24O]

KitaSaturnyne wrote...

Um, so yeah. Totally didn't get that vibe from the new Control ending. I instead got "Shepard is going to guard us all using the Reapers, watching over everyone in their new form", not "I'm the new dictator in town and you're all bent to my will".

So I'm either willing to bet that you're being facetious, or the endings change depending on Paragon/ Renegade score. I await all derisions.

Yeah, paragon Shepard's Control is much more hopeful, and much less sinister than Renagade Shepard. 

[KitaSaturnyne]

DistantUtopia wrote...

Yes, the dialog does change if you're renegade.

Huh. That's a pretty nice touch I didn't see coming. Kind of makes it so that each of the endings are specific to each type of Shepard, rather than unifying them into the same context regardless of which path you chose.

[Grifman1]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Well don't worry... the vast majority of the internet sees absolutely no problem with killing off a sentient species, considers destroy an almost unequivocally happy ending, and really does not care what happens to anyone as long as it's implied they'll reunite with their LI.

I don't know why you keept saying this.  You're plain wrong.  Most people that choose destroy are not happy that they have to kill EDI/Geth.  To say that they don't care is just plain false.  Please stop spreading this nonsense.

[Biotic Flash Kick]

Your professor should have worked on ME3 instead of mac walters and casey hudsons
here's hoping they get killed or commit suicide
Here here
Cheers mate

[Renmiri1]

Fapmaster5000 wrote...

Now: check this out, the plot of ME4.

..snipping of epic post ...

BONUS SCENE: Old Man Garrus, preparing a refitted Normandy to ram the Reaper-Shepard, declaring, "See you at the bar, buddy." before engaging a manually-programmed FTL hop, directly into the abomination's eye socket.

I like this script!!!

Modifié par Renmiri1, 27 juin 2012 - 01:58 .

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Grifman1 wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Well don't worry... the vast majority of the internet sees absolutely no problem with killing off a sentient species, considers destroy an almost unequivocally happy ending, and really does not care what happens to anyone as long as it's implied they'll reunite with their LI.

I don't know why you keept saying this.  You're plain wrong.  Most people that choose destroy are not happy that they have to kill EDI/Geth.  To say that they don't care is just plain false.  Please stop spreading this nonsense.

If you're not happy, I'm not talking about you.

I had terrible insomnia last night, so I was here when the first crop of people were playing, and there were dozens and dozens of people posting essentially "yay, with Destroy now I get my happy ending!" or "Meh, destroy is just a pragmatic sacrifice. You know a few people will die in a war, and that's what happened here." 

If you don't embody either of those viewpoints, then you're not one of the people contributing to my rapidly encroaching madness, and I apologize if I included you inadvertently.