Aller au contenu

Photo

"All Were Thematically Revolting". My Lit Professor's take on the Endings. (UPDATED)


  • Veuillez vous connecter pour répondre
5087 réponses à ce sujet

#4126
MrFob

MrFob
  • Members
  • 5 413 messages

Hawk227 wrote...
Hey MrFob,

No, i"m not defending "speculation for everyone". I think that the EC endings are more effective in every way than the original endings. I was just sort of explaining why I thought many people (Like CGG, edinooM, and even myself to an extent) feel rather burned by the EC. Before we could imagine Bioware wasn't telling a depressing, nihilistic tale, but now we know for sure that they were.

Yes, I can see that. And maybe I was wrong. Maybe in a way, ambiguity is preferable in this circumstance.

I think you may have misinterpreted me, because the parts I've bolded were more or less my point.

Other than a Refuse option that many have taken as a slap in the face, the new content just reinforces the original ending. It clarifies that bioware really didn't think synthetics were valid, that they really didn't value standing on your principles, and that they really did think Synthesis was super awesome. All of these things were present in the original ending, but they weren't concrete. We had to speculate at the extent to which they felt this, but now we know. With all this clarity, their intent has come in to focus, and that intent is rather... unappealing.


We can agree on the fact that the new message within the EC is definitely unappealing. However I still doubt that this was their intent from the start. I fear the situation is even worse and the writers got to this point by happenstance rather then by thinking it through. I am not convinced they took the time to think about the interpretation of the endings in this way.
I do think - and of course I am speculating now more then ever before - the ambiguity in the interpretation of the original ending was their intent and that the clear message we got now is the only way they thought they could address some fans concerns without loosing face. Thus, the new endings and their clarity are a construct of the circumstances just as much as the authors intention, artistic integrity be damned after all.
Not that this is an improvement of course. I am not sure which idea I dislike more, the one where I am disappointed and repulsed by the writers' pretentiousness or the one where I have to despise them for their nihilistic attitude towards life in general, story telling more specifically and their own creation in particular.


EDIT: Oh dear! Well, in light of how things seem to play out I propose Sergei Rachmaninoff's "Tears" for this page. It may not be a party song but it is appropriate.

Modifié par MrFob, 28 juin 2012 - 03:07 .


#4127
Bigdoser

Bigdoser
  • Members
  • 2 575 messages

Fapmaster5000 wrote...

Alright, I have a moment here to expand on my thoughts about the ending from my rapidly degrading post-chain last night. Sleep, time, and other duties have given time for the sediment in my brain to settle out, and bring "clarity" to why the EC bothers me, so very, very much.

First, these endings ARE better than what we got. The most obvious holes are patched over, the logical flaws and gameplay failures are addressed, and the endings expand on the "why" and "what next" questions raised by the original endings. These endings are appropriate, on target, and thematically consistent with a solitary vision of the ending. I still don't believe that theme and vision matches with the rest of the series, but this is an ending that I should dislike not and ending that should send me cackling away from my keyboard with black humor and sarcastic antipathy.

For those who don't know me, my reaction to "hate" is not anger, or fury. It manifests as a sudden dismissal, a "you aren't even worth my time" sneer and a string of sarcastic comments in response to every word spoken or written. I will not give you, or your progeny, the time of day. You are not worth my hate, so I make you object of derision, an un-person who produces pathetic un-things. This is probably not a healthy reaction, but it's the reaction I felt towards the EC, from the moment "we failed" was contrasted with the sunshine and rainbows of synthesis, and I had to know why I turned on it. I was relatively hopeful going in. I'd constructed threads discussing how to patch over the ending, how they might do it. The main one was "Threading the Needle", and I was correct on MANY points of the "how" they would fix it. So why did it bother me so much?

The answer is in the "why", or rather, the "where did this come from".

For some of you, you may remember a long winded and (surprisingly) emotional post I made in this thread, weeks ago, about a long-derailed campaign I had run. For those of you who are new to this thread, or simply saw the size of that post and decided "screw that", I'll break it down, quickly. I ran a long-term, story and character driven game with friends. It was reputed as one of the best games in town/college, and I took pride in it. Eventually, though, I attempted something that proved foolhardy, an "artistic" arc and ending that drove a spike into the players' hearts. The game broke down, violently, and friendships ended. I was left wondering, "What the hell just happened? That was the most ambitious and awesome thing I've ever run!"

The reply I quickly drew up, was that I'd forgotten the most important piece of the puzzle, the players. They'd been ground under by ambition and artistry, and snapped under a miserable theme and context. (Go read about it if you want to see it, it was bad.) Some reached out to me, I reached out to more, and apologies were exchanged all around, and eventually, most came back (one left town, but still tries to stay in contact). I rebooted the game, and we all learned some lessons. As the DM, the man behind the curtain, I learned the most, on how to respond better to what the players wanted, how to make a better game, and strike a better balance between my desires and the desires of the players around the table. We all have a lot more fun, because of that.

So I look at the EC, and I see shades of that, but not quite. I spent time, little money, and emotional self-analysis to meet the players in the middle, to see if from their perspective, and deliver my universe in a way that they could enjoy, to make it our story. They spent a lot of time and money, trying to explain to us why they were correct.

If I'd come to my players, or waited until they'd come to me, and then broken down, step by step, why they were simply incorrect, and the ending I'd planned was the perfect one, they'd have walked right back out, and had every right to. No one likes being treated like that, especially when they are correct in their objections. Yet, that's what Bioware did! They spent money (so much money) and time, bringing the actors in, developing cut scenes, risking their very series... to explain that we were wrong.

This is so wrong headed it makes me ill. Hubris and willful ignorance collide into a murky soup. They addressed the surface of what was wrong "oh, Joker left you because he was ordered to, but completely ignored the meat of the objections: the thematic break, the sudden, soul-crushing and inconsistent tenor of the endings. They made them mechanically better. They fixed the guts of their art, but they never confronted the chief objection that their "art" had betrayed their audience, and indeed, their own prior works.

The amount of resources, the quality of polish, only compound this. How much money did they spend, how much time was devoted, into a arrogantly informing us that we were wrong and they were right? The hubris only increases when you consider that they are gambling the possible future of their company on the idea that they do not need to address their audience, and that the problem with Mass Effect 3 was not in anything they did, but totally and completely upon our failure to understand their brilliance.

It's not in the game alone. The game alone, when held in an isolated thought bubble, only hints of this (as Hawk and jBauck were able to enjoy the game by ignoring the metatext), but when combined with the authorial intent expressed in the metatext, paints a disturbing portrait of arrogance and dismissal.

  • Rejection does not solve anything. You die alone, wrong, and a coward for your principles, and you all lose.
  • The next cycle uses the Crucible that you were too stupid not to.
  • The next cycle uses the VERY SAME CRUCIBLE that you left behind, because the Reapers thought you, the player, was so stupid that they didn't even destroy it.
  • The interview with Hudson, Walters, and Merizan was such a fapfest that it broke corporate spin records, but that was to be expected. Everyone spins. The problem was the direction of the spin. It was more "people didn't understand" and "people wanted more of our awesome". There was no acknowledgement of validity in the complaints.

This list goes on, a slew of slights and grievances, all minor on their own, but which showcase a distressing worldview.

They did not do any soul searching. There was no admission of failure, or even of culpability to the endings. The fault was entirely upon the audience, and they deigned to lowered themselves from their cloud, not to meet with us, but to dispense more of their wisdom. And why? Not to address our concerns, our concerns were below addressing,but to make the clamoring mob shut up and eat their cake. It was the noise they heard, not the words, and it was the noise they addressed, and now wait for praise.

They didn't have to do this. They went out of their way to make Reject a slap in the face. They could have just had it lose, and that would have been fine, but they colored that loss in the worst shades of "you failed" they possibly could. IF THEY WENT THROUGH THE TROUBLE OF ADDING THAT CHOICE, TO ADDRESS THOSE WHO ASKED FOR IT, WHY DID THEY THEN GO OUT OF THEIR WAY TO SPITE IT?

This boggles my mind! In their response to fan criticism, they took the hardest road: they added gameplay, in direct response to critique, but then spent their resources to deliberately make that new option not address the concerns it was ostensibly aimed towards. Then, when that proved to not be enough, they clarified in metatext that EVEN THAT WAS NOT ENOUGH, and you still lost even the point you stood upon, after you'd lost everything else, since the next cycle did what you were too dumb to do.

They changed nothing, but they spent capital, time, and reputation to do so. If they'd simply wanted to stick to their guns, they could have, should have, done that with simple interviews or metatext. "This was our story, this was our point. It may not be for everyone, but here's how and why we did it." That would have been fine. I'd have disagreed, but accepted.

Instead, they spent this vast investment, to extend the narrative and slap me across the face for not properly appreciating what they'd done. It's a betrayal of the fans, and the greater that fan's appreciation for themes and insight, the greater the power of the slap. This was the opposite of what I did with my group of friends. When they held out a hand, I took it, and we addressed the problem together. When we held out our hand, they spat in it, insulted us, and pushed us aside.

This is a story of hubris. This is a story of dismissal. The ending is appropriate. To Bioware, or at least the Mass Effect team, the lesser party must obey the greater. There is no hope, there is no compromise, no mutual respect. You accept what your given, mongrel, and enjoy it, be it starby's twisted solution or the writer's twisted expansion.

Well, good people, I reject you, both in and out of game, and while inside your playbox, you are God and the devil, able to rig the endings, you have no such say over my mind. There, I am sovereign, and I reject years of your work that I've let colonize my thoughts. I have my own thoughts, my own works. I'll stick to those. I have my own world, my own goals. I'll chase those.

I reject you, all your works, and all your empty promises.

I'm done.

ADDENDUM:

Some spare thoughts while I sip my coffee and check for errors: Only now do I truly grok to the title of this thread. Before, I hated the endings. Now I despise them, and for me, there is a difference. The original endings were incomplete, incorrectly delivered, and much of their damage was done through failure. Here, and now, we see the successful conclusion to their vision, and the only way I can describe my revulsion to it is this: A better delivered atrocity is not a better atrocity.

These are my exact thoughts as well the fact that the next cycle used the crucible is a slap in the face. I agree with everything in this post.

#4128
KitaSaturnyne

KitaSaturnyne
  • Members
  • 396 messages
Well, okay then. I made my arguments, but you guys made better ones.

It's clear to me now that the EC was nothing but a giant "eff you" from BioWare to all of us. Everything they ever did was, and everything the will do will always be that: a giant tell off. It doesn't even matter anymore. As such, the discussion of themes on this matter is from this point useless and empty.

Thank you guys for this clarity. It sounds sarcastic, but I mean it. I will be uninstalling every BioWare game from my hard drive and tossing the games into a dark corner of my closet.

I'm done.

#4129
edisnooM

edisnooM
  • Members
  • 748 messages
@KitaSaturnyne

Never have I felt so depressed at someone seeing things from my point of view. My most sincere sympathies.

#4130
Fapmaster5000

Fapmaster5000
  • Members
  • 404 messages

edisnooM wrote...

@KitaSaturnyne

Never have I felt so depressed at someone seeing things from my point of view. My most sincere sympathies.


Likewise.

#4131
CulturalGeekGirl

CulturalGeekGirl
  • Members
  • 3 280 messages
I feel the same way.

I would give almost anything to love Mass Effect again.

#4132
Zine2

Zine2
  • Members
  • 585 messages
Once a girl cheats on you, you let her go :).

#4133
Fapmaster5000

Fapmaster5000
  • Members
  • 404 messages

Zine2 wrote...

Once a girl cheats on you, you let her go :).


No, no, no!  You post the videos she sent you, send her passive aggressive notes, light her car on fire, then let her go, publicly, and fall into a three month bender-

Maybe that was just me?

Modifié par Fapmaster5000, 28 juin 2012 - 03:54 .


#4134
CulturalGeekGirl

CulturalGeekGirl
  • Members
  • 3 280 messages
I think of it more like this: you meet a guy, you fall in love, and then he starts to manifest symptoms of a profound mental illness. The first time you attempt counseling, it doesn't go well, and he swears he'll never go back again.

How long do you stay with him? You love him and want him to get better, but...

#4135
Zine2

Zine2
  • Members
  • 585 messages
No, that's just too spiteful.

#4136
delta_vee

delta_vee
  • Members
  • 393 messages
@CGG

Entirely depends on whether he comes at you with a knife, or merely keeps asking you to borrow money he'll "forget" he owes. Which applies here, I can't decide for you.

#4137
CulturalGeekGirl

CulturalGeekGirl
  • Members
  • 3 280 messages
I do have that "but I can save him!" problem, generally.

I'm not giving up on Bioware, even beyond my wacky metaphor. For one, the Dragon Age team is a completely different team with completely different people. But I'm never buying another Mass Effect related game unless it has a positive effect on the ending.

#4138
Fapmaster5000

Fapmaster5000
  • Members
  • 404 messages

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

I do have that "but I can save him!" problem, generally.

I'm not giving up on Bioware, even beyond my wacky metaphor. For one, the Dragon Age team is a completely different team with completely different people. But I'm never buying another Mass Effect related game unless it has a positive effect on the ending.


While I would agree with you (and definately do about the DA team thingy), I fear that stating this may simply lead to the most soulless corporate scheme ever:

"Buy this ME3 DLC, and one of the the three endings is made randomly less sh*tty!  With each DLC you buy, another unlocks, until, if you collect them all, Reject ends as happily as Synthesis!"

... which would still be better, mind you...

#4139
MrFob

MrFob
  • Members
  • 5 413 messages
Same here.
It's a shame to see so many people abandon BW here. Truly, I do understand the reasons but let's hold on for a second here. We have seen that a couple of mistakes were made and the conduct of certain people were less than exemplary but in my view, there is always the potential to learn and change and the greater the disaster the bigger this potential is as well.
That said, one thing that will change for me is that I will view future BW products - and ME ones in particular - with a great deal of skepticism. I abandoned the unconditional trust I once had.but I do think that minds and hearts can change and failing that, teams can.
I do hope though that abandoning the ME games is not equivalent with abandoning the ME boards because that would really be a shame and wont improve a thing.

#4140
delta_vee

delta_vee
  • Members
  • 393 messages
Eh, I've got enough fantasy RPGs littering my hard drive as it is, and I'm not even particularly into fantasy. The appeal of ME was always that it was SF (and not in the post-apocalyptic variety so common in videogame RPGs). If someone were to make a videogame version of Eclipse Phase, I'd be all over that s**t.

For now, though, Mass Effect was the only game in town which catered to that particular genre. Now I'm back to having none, instead of one.

#4141
CulturalGeekGirl

CulturalGeekGirl
  • Members
  • 3 280 messages

Fapmaster5000 wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

I do have that "but I can save him!" problem, generally.

I'm not giving up on Bioware, even beyond my wacky metaphor. For one, the Dragon Age team is a completely different team with completely different people. But I'm never buying another Mass Effect related game unless it has a positive effect on the ending.


While I would agree with you (and definately do about the DA team thingy), I fear that stating this may simply lead to the most soulless corporate scheme ever:

"Buy this ME3 DLC, and one of the the three endings is made randomly less sh*tty!  With each DLC you buy, another unlocks, until, if you collect them all, Reject ends as happily as Synthesis!"

... which would still be better, mind you...


I would pay one thousand dollars for that.

I am not in any way exaggerating. I would cancel a goddam vacation for that. I'd sell my DVD collection. I'd do whatever it takes to raise a thousand dollars if that was the price they put on not being a monster.

#4142
Zine2

Zine2
  • Members
  • 585 messages

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

I do have that "but I can save him!" problem, generally.

I'm not giving up on Bioware, even beyond my wacky metaphor. For one, the Dragon Age team is a completely different team with completely different people. But I'm never buying another Mass Effect related game unless it has a positive effect on the ending.


I think I said in another thread that while I rescined the black list on Bioware, I'm still blaclisting Hudson and Walters.

For me, the ME series ended at Reject. Which is better than the last time, wherein the series ended after Hackett tries to call Shep as he goes up the elevator and I pretend every scene with the Star Child never happened.

#4143
KitaSaturnyne

KitaSaturnyne
  • Members
  • 396 messages
The EC makes the entire Mass Effect trilogy a big shove off from BioWare. Since this was obviously BioWare's intent, that makes Dragon Age the exact same thing. KOTOR, whatever else, all of it. Hell, let's even go back to NWN if anyone can reach back that far.

It's much better and easier to just go with that. Just because your psycho boyfriend wants to knife your face doesn't mean you stay with him because he's good in the sack.

#4144
Chrislo1990

Chrislo1990
  • Members
  • 323 messages
Guys just imagine if we hadn't complained about the broken endings to the degree that we did? What kind of message would it have conveyed to Bioware? That they can rush out games and not beat themselves over quality storylines because in the end their artistic integrity would be there to protect them from our complaints? Just think about that for a while. What do you guys think?

The extended cut dlc was developed out of the intense pressure we placed on Bioware to live up to the promises they had made.  And even in the face of all this negative attentiont, they refused to change the broken ending and rereleased it, only this time it's slightly less broken. Does it change the fact that it's still broken? Nope. What I find funny is that upon closer inspection they actually HAD to change a couple of the cinematic sequences because they just couldn't convey their intended story with the original scenes. What does that tell you?   

Modifié par Chrislo1990, 28 juin 2012 - 04:33 .


#4145
Fapmaster5000

Fapmaster5000
  • Members
  • 404 messages

Chrislo1990 wrote...

Guys just imagine if we hadn't complained about the broken endings to the degree that we did? What kind of message would it have conveyed to Bioware? That they can rush out games and not beat themselves over quality storylines because in the end their artistic integrity would be there to protect them from our complaints? Just think about that for a while. What do you guys think?

The extended cut dlc was developed out of the intense pressure we placed on Bioware to live up to the promises they had made.  And even in the face of all this negative attentiont, they refused to change the broken ending and rereleased it, only this time it's slightly less broken. Does it change the fact that it's still broken? Nope. What I find funny is that upon closer inspection they actually HAD to change a couple of the cinematic sequences because they just couldn't convey their intended story with the original scenes. What does that tell you?   


You raise some really good points here, and I wish I could address them more fully, but unforunately, I'm currently cooking an amazingly healthy dinner metwursts.  

I think they had a game, whose core I fundamentally opposed, poorly delivered.  I thought they had simply misdelivered a game I would like, and so raised my voice with many others.  Now, they've delivered a sold game that I fundamentally oppose.  Yay?

Well, I can respect Mass Effect for what it was, now, and feel no urge to ever play it.  I think Bioware learned a lesson, but whether that lesson was "take no risks, and end with sunshine" or "deliver on your promises", only time will tell.  Given that we live in a perverse universe, they probably learned the former lesson, but I'm still an optimist.

And, hey, I learned something, as well.  I loved a series that didn't love me back, and now I'm free.

#4146
Jorji Costava

Jorji Costava
  • Members
  • 2 584 messages
Well, I've got nothing to add except that I thought this would be an appropriate metaphor for the love-hate relationship with Mass Effect folks seem to have right now.

EDIT: Warning--the link is decidedly NSFW.

Modifié par osbornep, 28 juin 2012 - 05:01 .


#4147
-Spartan

-Spartan
  • Members
  • 190 messages
The BW we all knew and loved died when it was absorbed into the wicked abominable monstrosity known as EA. Many people thought I was wrong when I protested the merger and that I had an ax to grind -etc...

I'll simply say this, I predicted that pretty much all products (accounting for an occasional WTF - they got it right moment) released afterword would be tainted, rushed and wrapped in the traditional EA crappiness which of course runs antithetical to what made BW the formerly most cherished developer in the industry. BW sold out and the handling of the whole situation is proof positive of that in my opinion.

Sadly I too have given up on BW and shall shortly be removing all its titles from my workstation and adding another headstone to the graveyard of EA.

#4148
MrFob

MrFob
  • Members
  • 5 413 messages

Fapmaster5000 wrote...

Well, I can respect Mass Effect for what it was, now, and feel no urge to ever play it.  I think Bioware learned a lesson, but whether that lesson was "take no risks, and end with sunshine" or "deliver on your promises", only time will tell.  Given that we live in a perverse universe, they probably learned the former lesson, but I'm still an optimist.

And, hey, I learned something, as well.  I loved a series that didn't love me back, and now I'm free.


It is interesting how a discussion that was mainly concerned with the endings has shifted towards one about the entire game or even the whole series. Before the EC, the endings were so disconnected from the rest of the game that they could be detached from it in every discussion. It was all about a good game with a horrible ending. Granted, we had discussions about the game structure and how t was flawed as well but in comparison to the major issues those were peanuts.
Now that the EC has integrated the endings better with the mail plot of the series through the epilogue, the perception of the series itself changes and we can no longer see the endings as a slip out of context. They evolved into an integral part of the story itself and since unfortunately they were not improved, they seem to drag down the rest of the plot even more by now. In that sense, I don't think BW did themselves a favor here. Given that they are integrated better, they might not be as thematically revolting anymore but the rest of a decent plot was adjusted to fit the theme of a horrible ending rather then the other way round.

Modifié par MrFob, 28 juin 2012 - 05:26 .


#4149
Chrislo1990

Chrislo1990
  • Members
  • 323 messages

Fapmaster5000 wrote...

Chrislo1990 wrote...

Guys just imagine if we hadn't complained about the broken endings to the degree that we did? What kind of message would it have conveyed to Bioware? That they can rush out games and not beat themselves over quality storylines because in the end their artistic integrity would be there to protect them from our complaints? Just think about that for a while. What do you guys think?

The extended cut dlc was developed out of the intense pressure we placed on Bioware to live up to the promises they had made.  And even in the face of all this negative attentiont, they refused to change the broken ending and rereleased it, only this time it's slightly less broken. Does it change the fact that it's still broken? Nope. What I find funny is that upon closer inspection they actually HAD to change a couple of the cinematic sequences because they just couldn't convey their intended story with the original scenes. What does that tell you?   


You raise some really good points here, and I wish I could address them more fully, but unforunately, I'm currently cooking an amazingly healthy dinner metwursts.  

I think they had a game, whose core I fundamentally opposed, poorly delivered.  I thought they had simply misdelivered a game I would like, and so raised my voice with many others.  Now, they've delivered a sold game that I fundamentally oppose.  Yay?

Well, I can respect Mass Effect for what it was, now, and feel no urge to ever play it.  I think Bioware learned a lesson, but whether that lesson was "take no risks, and end with sunshine" or "deliver on your promises", only time will tell.  Given that we live in a perverse universe, they probably learned the former lesson, but I'm still an optimist.

And, hey, I learned something, as well.  I loved a series that didn't love me back, and now I'm free.

Wow that's a really unique way of looking at it. I admire your thinking. Unfortunately I am more of a pessimist, always expecting the worse so that I don't feel as disappointed  in the end lol. I hope I get to think a little bit  more like you in time.  Image IPB But yes I will cherish the exciting and satisfying moments I had while playing the mass effect franchise.  In fact I got into rpgs becaue of mass effect believe it or not.

#4150
Chrislo1990

Chrislo1990
  • Members
  • 323 messages

MrFob wrote...

Fapmaster5000 wrote...

Well, I can respect Mass Effect for what it was, now, and feel no urge to ever play it.  I think Bioware learned a lesson, but whether that lesson was "take no risks, and end with sunshine" or "deliver on your promises", only time will tell.  Given that we live in a perverse universe, they probably learned the former lesson, but I'm still an optimist.

And, hey, I learned something, as well.  I loved a series that didn't love me back, and now I'm free.


It is interesting how a discussion that was mainly concerned with the endings has shifted towards one about the entire game or even the whole series. Before the EC, the endings were so disconnected from the rest of the game that they could be detached from it in every discussion. It was all about a good game with a horrible ending. Granted, we had discussions about the game structure and how t was flawed as well but in comparison to the major issues those were peanuts.
Now that the EC has integrated the endings better with the mail plot of the series through the epilogue, the perception of the series itself changes and we can no longer see the endings as a slip out of context. They evolved into an integral part of the story itself and since unfortunately they were not improved, they seem to drag down the rest of the plot even more by now. In that sense, I don't think BW did themselves a favour here.

Yeah I see that too man. I guess that we had gotten our hopes up that Bioware would modify the original endings and make them so much better. And even after Bioware confirmed that they wold not change them due to artistic integrity, people still held on to a flicker of hope. Now that it very likely that this is all we're going to get out of Bioware, people are now taking the extended dlc as permanent canon, which unfortunately as you said yourself, drags along the entire game and the series as a whole. It really saddens me.

Modifié par Chrislo1990, 28 juin 2012 - 05:29 .