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"All Were Thematically Revolting". My Lit Professor's take on the Endings. (UPDATED)


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#4576
vallore

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“The Ending is a very delicate time,”


this is something that Frank Herbert could have said, if he had played ME3.

When I think of the endings controversy, I am inevitably reminded of how so many factors contributed to its failure; how the sum become more than the parts; each factor of failure adding to the disappointment and frustration of this or that player, to the point it resulted into a perfect storm: a multitude of gamers, often with markedly distinct preferences, expressing their disappointment in a previously unheard scale.

I don’t bring an original approach to the table. In fact, I suspect, there is little in the following wall of text that hasn’t been written ad nauseam, a voice in the chorus. But that was not my goal, either; I am simply trying to give form to some of my own thoughts on the matter: an exercise in catharsis.






If this was victory, why does it feel just like defeat?

Such were my thoughts after playing ME3. When I first played the ending, two things immediately felt extremely odd: the lack of logic of the catalyst’s arguments, and the lack of argumentation against, from Shepard. The EC improved this, but didn’t completely correct it, far from it. The Catalyst argumentation is still illogical and, while Shepard can now argue against it, it is too little and too feeble.

When I watch Shepard’s last confrontation, it just doesn’t feel like if an actual conflict is going on. The Catalyst is in control, holding all the cards, and Shepard is somehow aware of this. She is resigned to a submissive role, accepting whatever the catalyst is willing to offer, without more than faint protests, at best. The question is, why?

Whatever the reason, the logic of the catalyst’s arguments was built upon extremely thin ice, but still the game appears to assume that Shepard would inevitably agree with this logic; either by passive capitulation, or grudgingly resignation. There is no way to argue against the holes in the catalyst logic and, at best, Shepard may make a tangent about reapers waging war, to immediately concede implicit defeat, by not even pointing how irrelevant is the catalyst contra-argument is.

At this point, some may argue that it would be irrelevant for Shepard to express her views. The catalyst would not accept her arguments, anyway. But I think this misses the point:

It is not just about winning the argument, it is also about staying true to the character we were playing.

Like many others, I suspect the authors envisioned the catalyst like an amoral god figure, which provided the player with the information about what the reapers goals were, and how to achieve Shepard’s own goals. Hence the symbolic elevator scene and, perhaps, also why Shepard acts with a completely out of character meekness: The catalyst wasn’t supposed to be an antagonist. However, due to his role in the creation of the reapers to further his own plans, the catalyst becomes necessarily the last of Shepard’s adversaries.

Apparently, the conflict between the catalyst’s intended role as an information provider and his apparently unintended role as the enemy may be an accident. It is just that, due to who he is, he is not simply explaining facts; he is implicitly, and explicitly, justifying his actions. Here is where Shepard’s passivity becomes uncomfortable for the player, as the character offers no option to refute his arguments. Being forced to implicitly accept the catalyst argument by her inaction, Shepard feels defeated in spirit, resulting in the player’s frustration.

But it gets worse. Then the Catalyst offers his choices. And because the catalyst is the one proposing them, whatever victory Shepard may achieve feels tainted.



The problem of the unreliable informer


The catalyst, as the main enemy, is necessarily unreliable. How to trust someone like him? Especially while he offers no proof that things will happen like he says. The only way to solve this seems to be by metagaming, something that many gamers do not enjoy.



That which you conquer vs. that which you’re granted


What is the most rewarding? What you conquer by your own efforts or what you are allowed to do by an apparently all powerful godling?(that apparently still can proceed with his original plans if Shepard doesn’t take what he offers). My answer would be the former, as the later lessens significantly the feeling of achievement. It is like winning a match in some sport because your opponent quit the field. It is technically a victory, but feels hollow.

Note that it doesn’t even have to be actually granted. If anything, it likely was intended to be understood that catalyst had no option anyway but to comply, but all it takes is reasonable doubt to poison the feel of victory. And if the unreliability of the catalyst wasn’t enough, the “so be it,” does the rest. Like Caesar’s wife, Victory must not only be honest, it must look so.



The Nature of a Man, (or a Woman)

The three choices; they all have uncomfortable side effects. That was intended and, in theory, it was a good idea, and even a necessary one; a way to measure the nature of our Shepard. The problem is that, for many of us, the costs were far too high.

The point of the cost was to make the decision difficult for the player, so that she can later enjoy and value more what she achieved by doing it. If however, the cost goes beyond of what the player feels comfortable to sacrifice, then it ruins its purpose, as the intended reward now brings no satisfaction. As they are, many seem to feel that the current costs require not only a sacrifice of Shepard’s life but also of her soul, as what is required of her is monstrous. Even Refusal is so flawed.



Of survival and sacrifice


Shepard’s survival was a powerful motivator for many, and also the ultimate cost they were willing to pay to achieve victory. But the sacrifice was – arguably – clumsily implemented and feels contrived.

If Sacrifice is the ultimate price, it must feel noble and fitting, not something that is there just “because Shepard must die.” Especially after all that the player was already asked to abdicate of her character.

But there is still another, big problem, with Survival:

After the prior failure of the endings at several levels; I suspect many a player found, like me, the need to look for some form of satisfying closure. The player was already required to sacrifice Shepard’s previously unconquerable spirit, and then her character’s soul, and all for what?

A victory that felt hollow.

But at least, we still would have Shepard’s life, right? After all, life is  a chance of healing, a way to end Shepard’s trials with hope. And in keeping hope, there is victory.

Wrong.

It is true that Bioware strongly suggests that, in one case, Shepard may survive. But they never fully commit with that possibility. Suddenly, after going out of the way to show, (and not just suggest), how perfect synthesis is, in Destroy it is like they were embarrassed to even show Shepard’s face during her last gasp. Why?

Games are imminently a visual medium. I don’t believe, for a second, that the authors would forget this. So they likely felt they needed to keep this one ambivalent. And as a result, far less satisfying that it could have been. Again, why?
Possibly as a mean to balance it with the other choices, that they may have believed to be far less appealing for many. But if so, I believe it was the wrong approach:

Either those players felt control or synthesis had appeal, or they didn't. But if they didn’t, no manner of downgrading the appeal of destroy would make the others more appealing. At best they would look equally unappealing. Instead of balancing the endings, they just closed more one door for the players, which now find yet another possibly satisfying resolution to Shepard’s trials (mostly) closed.

And so my rant ends.

Note: Edited for clarity (the irony)

Modifié par vallore, 09 juillet 2012 - 10:13 .


#4577
JadedLibertine

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I really like alleyd's idea for Reaper War DLC. I see it as ME4 in episodic form hopefully with added space combat. Not only providing a fitting conclusion for Mass Effect but also have as a backdrop the complex geopolitics as a new galactic order comes into being and they try to form a new council and create some semblance of a system of galactic government. The Asari would be hugely diminished in power and influence but they'd be playing a long game to get back their status as a pre eminent race. If the genophage is cured what will relations be like between the Salarians and a resurgent Tuchanka. See how durable the alliance between Humanity, the Krogan and the Turians is, and see if the Geth and Quarians can stay united and turn Rannoch into a superpower. When Aria retakes Omega with her unified army the Terminus systems may begin to have something resembling a functioning government under her control. With the Hegemony smashed we can have a glimpse of what the future may hold for the Batarians.

We can see how the players ideals cope with the pragmatism and realpolitik involved in fighting a galactic war. There are so many stories still to be told in the Mass Effect universe. Who cares what Hudson and Walters said about no more after ME3. Surely they want to escape the constrictions of mere videogames and seek to express their artistic integrity through exciting new mediums such as arthouse cinema, experimental theatre and interpretive dance. Oscars, Pulitzers and Nobel Prizes are for mere hacks. The true mark of greatness for any artist is the respect of IGN and the admiration of Colin Moriarty.

I'm a bit late to this party as I decided to play through the entire game when I got the Extended Cut. It's defining moment was the Normandy pick up. Harbinger was sniping individual soldiers but when he sees a large stationary target and the person he spent the entirety of ME2 stalking like a creepy obsessive ex boyfriend, he does nothing. Just apathetically gazes upon the scene with a complete lack of interest, exactly mirroring my listless indifference. For the first time I felt a strong kinship with the posturing old ham. Especially when he then flies off and refuses to have anything to do with the rest of the story.

The very instant StarChild appeared I followed Harby's example and bailed out. Didn't even YouTube it as I never again want to hear the horrid tones of whichever Alberta stage school brat they got to voice that kid. It felt so liberating, if Hudson and Walters refuse to abide by anything resembling narrative logic then there is no reason why I should. Just leave it unresolved and let our own imaginations fill in the gaps.

My version, at Sanctuary Shepard engineers a rapprochement between Miranda and her father and persuades them to mount a coup to take over Cerberus and commit their resources to the war effort. ME3 needs more of the smoothly sinister Henry Lawson, he is voiced by Alan Dale the master of portraying urbane villainy (and this time just like Yvonne he's using his real accent). Meanwhile TIM goes on the run and crosses paths with Admiral Xen. He's a human supremacist and she perhaps does not have the most enlightened views when it comes to non-Quarians. But will they see past their differences and bond over their love of mad science and desire to enslave synthetics? So begins an awesome romantic comedy in which Martin Sheen and Claudia Black exchange saucy quips and engage in flirtatious badinage.

#4578
drayfish

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@ alleyd: Wow. That is a comprehensive, ingenious and inviting DLC package. 
 
In the lead up to Mass Effect 3, with all the talk of 'Taking Back Earth' something like this was certainly what I was hoping for in the final push, but you articulated a vision of that campaign with far more clarity than my meagre imagination could manage.
 
I do agree with the dangers articulated by Strange Aeons in offering something that magnificent and ending-integral in the form of paid DLC (it risks further heading down the worrying Capcom path*), but my gods, in a perfect world I would have loved, loved, loved that in game, and (despite myself) already feel the pull toward buying it still... 
 
Quit being so imaginative! If you were designing games I would have no money left for (what-do-you-call-it?) food. And yet somehow I'd still be deliriously happy.
 
 

@ BigTuna82:
 

'Your fondness of Edi and the Geth holding you back from Destroy? Here's a DLC that protects them in some way from the blast."

I got a chill when I read this. You have shown me a glimpse of the apocalypse. I can definitely see this coming...   Repent!
 
 

And @ NobodyofConsequence (ye of the utterly misrepresentative name): all the best of luck at the new job. Here's hoping that you'll still drop in to say hi now and again, and thanks for all the fantastic discussion.
 

 
* Azura's Wrath, Capcom? You put 'wrath' in the title and then charged people for the ending? Are you addicted to irony or just mental?

Modifié par drayfish, 10 juillet 2012 - 01:17 .


#4579
drayfish

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@ vallore: Great post; and a fine summation of that infuriating sense of apathy and futility that I too was certainly feeling at the conclusion of the game.
 
It was definitely a mystifying design choice of Bioware to present the incalculably epic action of utterly, irreversibly deciding how to remake the entire universe, by having Shepard stripped of all agency, and placed into the acquiescent role of Reaper's-Little-Helper. She fights for three games, repeatedly doing the conventionally impossible: hey, nobody could end the war between Quarian and Geth; no one can do anything about the genophage; I bet nothing could get Jack to maybe put on a shirt or something... and yet she does.  Every time. With frickin' bells on. Again and again Shepard defies the odds, does the remarkable, challenges those who would pedal false ultimatums... all until face-planting into the Reaper King's insipid logic loop.

Exactly as you so elegantly stated, instead of a challenge to the idiocy of an inane scheme cooked up by a wacked A.I., Shepard simply musters up a weary, 'Welp, better go die...' and shuffles on. Of all of the expositional data dumps Shepard has had to endure this is by far the most irrational, most revealing and most devastatingly impactful of the entire series, and yet Shepard is, as you say, utterly passive.  


I wanted:
 
SHEPARD: 'You are insane.  And we, the free races of the universe (and our adorable unified armada) will prove you wrong, even as we tear down everything you are.'
 

Instead, I couldn't even get this:

CATFISH
: 'Synthetics will kill organics.'
 
SHEPARD: 'Actually, no, we're cool now and we were hoping –'
 
CATSKILLS: 'So I, the ultimate Synthetic, must kill everyone arbitrarily.'
 
SHEPARD: '...Yeah.  Could you not do that? We were all hoping – you know, me and my friends the Synthetics – we were all kinda hoping you'd see how dumb that is. How little sense that makes.'
 
CASTANET: 'Do not ask the fire why it burns. Does it hate the grass it consumes? Do not bother to question why, while I am trying to argue the cold, calculating logic of my scheme, I have just used clumsy poetry about natural cycles of rebirth.'
 
SHEPARD: 'Actually, that doesn't make sense either... '
 
CATS BY ANDREW LLOYD WEBBER*: 'Yeah, I was reading some Zen poetry while I was waiting. Just trying to mix it into the repertoire.'

SHEPARD: 'And you're sure there's not just a self-destruct button anywhere?'
 
 
And I particularly appreciated your analysis of the narrative role the Holo-Toad is no doubt intended to play:
 

vallore wrote...
 
Like many others, I suspect the authors envisioned the catalyst like an amoral god figure, which provided the player with the information about what the reapers goals were, and how to achieve Shepard’s own goals. Hence the symbolic elevator scene and, perhaps, also why Shepard acts with a completely out of character meekness: The catalyst wasn’t supposed to be an antagonist. However, due to his role in the creation of the reapers to further his own plans, the catalyst becomes necessarily the last of Shepard’s adversaries.

I've heard this argument posited elsewhere also – the Catalyst is not the villain to be overcome, he is just the objective voice of a final universal decision tree – but you're absolutely right, to place him in such an abstracted role completely ignores the narrative that he himself voices. He is the antagonist. He is revealed to be the direct instigator of this endless cycle, even harvesting his own creators once his mad plan was hatched.
 
Just like cleaning up the Racchni War, the Genophage, the Geth/Quarian conflict, like every other act of piracy, injustice and wrong-doing throughout every moment of the trilogy, in the final scene Shepard is presented with a problem that has stretched back beyond her arrival on the scene, and has the opportunity to solve it. Here she even gets to confront it's perpetrator, just like she did with Saren, just like she did with the Thorian, just like she did with the Illusive Man, the Shadow Broker. She stands before the creature that confesses itself to be the source of all of this senseless slaughter, and staring it in the eye, stunned by the enormity of the suffering that it has inflicted upon countless generations in the name of its irrational conundrum... she decides to do precisely what it suggests for some reason.
 
Arbitrary.
 
Way to end on a high.
 
'Hey Frodo, it's me, Sauron. You know that ring you've been carrying? Why don't you just give it over here to me? Cool. Thanks, Bro.'
 
 
 
And @ JadedLibertine:
 

I'm a bit late to this party as I decided to play through the entire game when I got the Extended Cut. It's defining moment was the Normandy pick up. Harbinger was sniping individual soldiers but when he sees a large stationary target and the person he spent the entirety of ME2 stalking like a creepy obsessive ex boyfriend, he does nothing. Just apathetically gazes upon the scene with a complete lack of interest, exactly mirroring my listless indifference. For the first time I felt a strong kinship with the posturing old ham. Especially when he then flies off and refuses to have anything to do with the rest of the story.

Brilliant.
 
'Oh, are you guys talking? No, you go ahead. Have your conversation. I'm just gonna fill in this crossword puzzle for a minute and –  Oh? You're done? Well: (* ZAP! * * KA-BLOW! *  * BLAM! *)  Mmwoah Ha Ha Haaaa...'
 
 
And Admiral Xen and The Illusive Man?   That is a buddy cop film I would love to see.
 
Indeed – if I may – the tagline: 'He's smoking and she's smokin'.'
 
Xen and the I-Man.
 
Rated R for ...really?


* ...yeah
, maybe that one was reaching...

Modifié par drayfish, 12 juillet 2012 - 05:00 .


#4580
GodSentinelOmega

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 Hey all, i've been reading this thread for a long time now and enjoying the hell out of it.

So this seemed as good a time as any to post my thoughts.

As many have said very elequently, none of the endings offer a resounding conclusion or sense of untainted victory. And on top of that we get the if you don't like our artistry you can say no and die! Whether that was the intent of reject i don't know but thats what it felt like to me.

For me, the problems in ME3 stem from sheperd ceasing to be the shatterpoint for the story. Throughout all of ME 1 and 2 our Sheperds were the lychpin around which the galactic revolved. Be it stopping the reapers or simply solving crimes or helping people. Shepard is the catalyst (no pun intended) for everything that happens.

But then we get to the third game and suddenly our hero becomes just a cog in the great war, and only lip service is paid to the one man can make a differance outlook of the previous games unless its resolving plot threads from said games. In the previous stories you were given the info on where to go and what uou could do, you chose how to do it.

In ME3 its more go here and do this because your a soldier and only a small part of the big picture.

It all comes to a head with the godchild/gestalt reaper mind because (and sable pheonix said it better than i can) a.bizarre progressivism plot focus takes over and we suddenly have to pick our transhuman poiso of choice or perish in noble futility.

I want the heroic shatterpoint back, i had hoped the EC would do that, but it only cemented the story shift. I hope my wall of text is worth aread and i look forward to being a part of this thread

So says GodSentinelomega

#4581
helloween7

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 When the EC was announced I started a new Shepard all the way from ME1 in the hopes that the momentum would carry me all the way through the end of 3. It was hard at times; Rannoch and Thessia (and its aftermath) are particulary cringe-worthy, for different reasons.

I tried to figure out while I played 3, what kinds of endings was the game foreshadowing, because it sure wasn't preparing me for what I got.



So, for most of the game, ME3 seems to gear towards a paragon/renegade final choice regarding the needs of the few vs. the needs of the many; something similar to the choice we faced at the end of 1 with the Destiny Ascension (uh... the irony of that name isn't lost on me, Harby), but in a much grander scale. So, who takes the burnt of the battle vs. the Reapers while Shepard & Co. are doing their magic somewhere else?

  • Renegade would think the needs of the few (that is, humanity and/or his own) outweigh the needs of the many. That is, he would sacrifice every single fleet (except possibly the human fleets) if that made his job easier.
  • Paragon would send the human fleets to the front to fight and die like everybody else (or even more so), because "we're in this together". She would also take on a few more enemies on her end of things if that meant saving a few allied forces elsewhere. 
And no, the Geth aren't a good choice of sacrifice if the original Everyone vs. the Reapers theme is kept; to a Renegade Shepard, their disappearance doesn't offer a significant strategic advantage for the hegemony of humanity in the post-war scenario. Not to mention that a Renegade Shepard would already have sacrificed them long ago.) 


And, most importantly, THE RENEGADE AND PARAGON CHOICES SHOULD BE EQUALLY VALID. I feel like an idiot for playing Paragon. But I won't let fear compromise who I am. :pinched:


Only after Thessia does the possibility of controlling the Reapers appear as a feasible means of ending the war, but let's be honest, it should be a faux ending à la Morinth. Nothing in the trilogy but the Catalyst and an indoctrinated TIM say this would work. Actually, what the game seems to be foreshadowing during Sanctuary, IMO, is the possibility of destroying (or seriously handicapping) the Reapers via their indoctrination signal. It seems like a wasted opportunity (or an abandoned thread).


EDI seems to foreshadow a Refusal ending in her post-Sanctuary conversation, the one about refugee camps and people not being utterly selfish. There are things worth dying for. 


Finally, there is simply no indication of Synthesis anywhere in the game, except maybe the Geth and the Quarians post-Rannoch, but that's because this is the only section of the game where Synthetics vs. Organics is a main theme.
 


Well, it doesn't seem like I will be playing again anytime soon. It's Reject for me, and headcanon. 


Maybe I will give Planescape: Torment a try. Or, being Summer, I might play WOW for a couple of months.


Anyway, I'm done with Mass Effect.

Modifié par helloween7, 12 juillet 2012 - 10:37 .


#4582
Ieldra

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vallore wrote...
Like many others, I suspect the authors envisioned the catalyst like an amoral god figure, which provided the player with the information about what the reapers goals were, and how to achieve Shepard’s own goals. Hence the symbolic elevator scene and, perhaps, also why Shepard acts with a completely out of character meekness: The catalyst wasn’t supposed to be an antagonist. However, due to his role in the creation of the reapers to further his own plans, the catalyst becomes necessarily the last of Shepard’s adversaries.

Yes, I think this sums up the main problem with the ending. I would have taken issue even with an amoral god figure, but making the entity who presents you with the solutions be the same one who created the problem you spent three games solving was an epic failure. I like the EC endings as such, and in principle, not taking the Catalyst's role into account, I have no problem whatsoever in having to select one of the existing options, but the Catalyst - as a character - remains a major obstacle to my enjoyment of the story, and only by treating it as a shackled AI with little freedom to act - not a character, in other words - can I save it for myself.

I always imagine how Shepard could have explored the Crucible in a final "level", unlocking one choice after the other while fighting Reaper forces in-between, maybe with Hackett (Destroy), TIM (Control) and EDI (Synthesis) giving you additional guidance where necessary. ME3's endings are inspired by those of Deux Ex 1, why not use the same mechanism to unlock the choices?

Modifié par Ieldra2, 12 juillet 2012 - 11:37 .


#4583
Ieldra

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helloween7 wrote...
Actually, what the game seems to be foreshadowing during Sanctuary, IMO, is the possibility of destroying (or seriously handicapping) the Reapers via their indoctrination signal. It seems like a wasted opportunity (or an abandoned thread).

I posted something like that in my thread The end of the Reaper War - a believable scenario more than a year ago. Reading it today, it still sounds more real than what ME3 gave us.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 12 juillet 2012 - 11:45 .


#4584
3DandBeyond

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I look at an ending in a story as the one that answers all the questions, that ties up all the loose ends, that gives you the reason as to why you did all that you did. It affirms the rightness or the wrongness of your choices.

Recently, I asked someone who liked the EC endings and who had stated that the EC answered all his questions to please explain to me (I asked respectfully) just what questions of import the endings answered from ME1 to ME3. I wanted to know if he could tell me and point me to exactly where the things that the kid said were shown to be issues that needed concluding, that needed (ugh) closure so much so that they were the focus of the ending of a huge story and 3 games. I also asked if the EC endings answered anything other than questions raised by the original endings and was surprised at the very honest answer I received.

This poster stated I would be disappointed because the EC only answered questions that the original endings brought up. It didn't answer any of the questions that I brought up as far as ME1, 2, and 3 were concerned. In fact, it didn't answer any questions that would have had any importance within the ME story at all and he didn't care. He actually said that he had forgotten and just ignored all of ME1 and 2 and they didn't matter to him at all. He said perhaps if I still had questions then DLC in the future or ME4 might answer them all but they didn't matter to him. I think this is the first time I've ever seen anyone that like the original and now these EC endings be honest as to what the ending is and all that it is not meant to do.

In essence what this one person was saying was that the endings were not there to end the ME games and Shepard's story. They were disconnected from the game and the stories and obviously so. That some people find this acceptable is to me so truly odd. But at the very least I finally got one person to admit this. I can't tell you the number of times I have asked just that question, from the original endings on into the EC; that someone explain how the endings and the kid are connected in any meaningful way to the rest of the story and the games. And this was the first time anyone 'fessed up and admitted they are not connected, but that they didn't care if they were. It is sad to me that some people have just come to accept bad writing, major MacGuffins used in place of a story, super space magic in place of a story, and a non-ending ending.

#4585
Kel Riever

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Two points I'd like to just add to the OP professor's comments, which are very great, by the way.

1. Ultimately, you don't even have to start with any of these criticisms, because you can just start with not giving the players a choice that would satisfy them, or in fact, any real choice at all. The endings, including with new content, are all the same. If you look at them, there is not enough difference in them to call them signifigantly different enough. The criticism is that this is NOT a movie, or television show, or book. This is a role-playing video game and the point of the genre, not to mention the hallmark of Mass Effect, are that your choices matter.

2. Once you have choices that matter, you can break them down critically. Which this professor does well, but (and sorry if I missed it) the whole premise that is told to you and that makes no sense is that sythetics and organics are destined to come into conflict. This happens after you form peace with the Geth and Quarians, and witness the relationship between EDI and Joker. It has been pointed out by many others, but really, that is the setup for all the nonsense options you have to take, and it shows in one fell swoop how ill thought out the end was.

Ill to the point that it STILL should be rewritten.

#4586
Obadiah

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@3DandBeyond
The ending answers the questions of who and what the Reapers are, and why they are attacking us. The original ending did that, and the Extended Cut does it in more detail.

#4587
3DandBeyond

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Obadiah wrote...

@3DandBeyond
The ending answers the questions of who and what the Reapers are, and why they are attacking us. The original ending did that, and the Extended Cut does it in more detail.


They don't answer that in any meaningful way-in fact the ending contradicts much of what was said in the games before about them. 

It answers why some crazy AI thinks they should be attacking people, but even in the context of what he says why they do that makes no sense-so it doesn't really answer that.  The reapers are either fully sentient beings (said to be this at many points in the game and even the kid alludes to this), or they are just like a brainless unthinking cleansing fire that has no evil intent and just does what it is meant to do.  Pick one.

The kid is the collective intelligence of the reapers-their "embodiment" if you will.  Ok what?  He said the reapers are dumb but he's them.  He puts people goo into them and in so doing apparently is increasing their intelligence, but why if they are dumb.  And if they are dumb, he certainly isn't supposed to be.  He knows what he says they don't know.  He knows what war and conflict are-his prime directive if you will is to stop conflict (that no Shepard would agree is always fated to be), so he knows what conflict, destruction, and war are.  He says the reapers don't.  Ok, what?  Consider what he says-the reapers are a like a cleansing (yeah fire real clean) fire.  So if they are so dumb and he isn't, then he is like a guy with a blowtorch in his hand that starts fires and says the blowtorch is just doing what it was meant to do.

The first reaper was created by the kid by putting his creators in it.  But his reasons why make very little sense and raise way more questions than they ever answer.  Sovereign said they were there to destroy "us".  The kid says they aren't wiping out organics, but harvesting them, ascending them.  Ok, but they are destroying a lot of us.  We also don't know who made what the kid's creators were put into that became the first reaper.  If they were going to go down this road, then they should have completed the trip.  And no, DLC won't make this all better since any DLC about this would lead to this same set of endings and change nothing.  I don't want explanation DLC.

We never find out how the star kid went from trying to be some promotor or mediator for peace into some rogue AI that is so demented as to be laughable. 

Basically, these are not even the questions ever asked within the games.  The goal was never to "understand" the reapers.  The goal was to destroy them.  There's a lot to suggest the reapers came to sort of "feed" on people-using their intelligence as nutrition and then to make new reapers-reproduction.  I can accept if this is true that what Sovereign said makes sense-they are unknowable.  Some being that harvests and reaps and feeds on another being is not going to try to explain what it's doing to its "food".  I don't try to explain to an ear of corn that I am taking it out of the field to eat it.  I don't think it will understand.  I am unknowable to an ear of corn.  And there are also cultures that feel that eating food does honor to the thing that gave its life for them to eat-there were cannibals that thought that they gained some part of the person they ate, that they ascended them into their being.  Other cultures that felt this way in eating a goat-thanking them for the honor of their sacrifice and als feeling that they were giving the goat a higher purpose.

I didn't really need those questions answered and was fine with the reapers being unknowable killing machines I wanted to kill.  In the movie "Jaws" no one ever cared about the shark's motives or why it was so big and all-it was done to perfection and the goal was its destruction and to keep it from killing.

But there are a number of big questions that were never answered with these endings and the biggest thing that would have shot holes in all that the kid used to support what he and his reaper posse were doing was ignored just so this could still be the ending pile of crap.  Shepard can't use the example of the geth and the quarians to refute anything the kid says, but that is to the point-Shepard can't because then it exposes just how little thought went into the endings.

I believe this is what happened.  They put an ending out there that was the most bare bones ending possible-and it was taken from other games and stories.  They wanted speculation because they thought in some way they might have to flesh this out a little better.  People speculated and they used some of those ideas to fill in plot holes they never thought of at all-Joker picking up teammates in London, the Normandy crashing on the jungle planet, the destruction of the mass relays (still in a codex a rupture is pretty bad), the lack of closure (a dead Shepard looks so cool, a live one is a pile of garbage), Joker running away (oh right-Hackett, "get the hell out of there"-give me a break).  Many things point to the writers not even knowing what to do with the ending.  And it doesn't answer any of the questions or resolve any of the plotlines that really mattered in ME1-3.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 12 juillet 2012 - 03:39 .


#4588
GodSentinelOmega

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As far as telling why the reapers do what they do, it just comes across as 'i was built to make peace between organics and machines yeah. Didn't work, will never work. So i decided to forcibly turn my creators into the first galactic gardener. Yeah, whenever organics get to creating machine life i'll send in the guys to prune them out.' and who were the creators? Apparently a stupid question as we don!t need to know. That just makes the reapers the weakest bad guys ever.

And as for the choices. Ok here' my take

Control:
Shepard becomes the AI of the reapers and thus becomes the ultimate authority in the universe. Whether its paragon or renegade, the shepards will guard life and step in to stop any problems. Guardian or overlord, how long will it take before shepard uses force to quell problems?

Synthesis:
Immotality, linked minds across the universe and its the 'pinnacle of evolution' so what does anyone have to strive for when youbhave it all?

Destroy:
A forced genocidal action for no reason, there should have been ways to fine tune the crucible, i mean the codex entry states that they are trying to find a way to make it target just the reapers right?

Reject could have been epic, instead of 'you won't pick your colour, ok shuffle off and die then seeya.'

I think your post above with the pro enders opinion is hitting the nail on the head threedanbeyond. This ending may suffice for ME3 barely. But it forgets, ignores or just chucks aside the wealth of story from the previous games.

#4589
3DandBeyond

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I also think that not only does the ending do all of the above as you so aptly put, GodSentinelOmega (love your name by the way), it also tends to obfuscate the main thrust of the story all along.

In regard to what the reapers are to the story. They are the antagonist and they are also the goal, or more rightly their destruction is the goal. I don't need to know much else because for me the story that was most important was in the galaxy of people-the reapers were never the most important things in the games.

#4590
Obadiah

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@3DandBeyond
1) It is completely plausible that some race created an AI intelligence to mediate the cyclical disputes between creators and created, and that it turned on them both with a solution they did not expect. The details of this may be interesting, but I do not find them particularly relevant to Shepard's story in Mass Effect.

2) The Catalyst controls the Reapers. Each Reaper is an independent entity. These two pieces of information are mutually exclusive and do not contradict each other. The Citadel AI also never says the Reapers are "dumb" nor is this anywhere implied.

3) According to the Catalyst AI, the conflict and annihilation of creators is inevitable. This would not preclude temporary peace between creator and created precipitated by an outside aggressor that threatens them both, say, a Reaper invasion. Thus, the Geth/Quarian peace after 300 years of aggression is not a counterargument.

4) The reason the fire analogy is apt is that war is usually waged for one side to get a concession from the other. In the Reapers conflict, like fire, there is no concession - they just destroy.

Modifié par Obadiah, 13 juillet 2012 - 03:46 .


#4591
3DandBeyond

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Obadiah wrote...

@3DandBeyond
1) It is completely plausible that some race created an AI intelligence to mediate the cyclical disputes between creators and created, and that it turned on them both with a solution they did not expect. The details of this may be interesting, but I do not find them particularly relevant to Shepard's story in Mass Effect.

2) The Catalyst controls the Reapers. Each Reaper is an independent entity. These two pieces of information are mutually exclusive and do not contradict each other. The Citadel AI also never says the Reapers are "dumb" nor is this anywhere implied.

3) According to the Catalyst AI, the conflict and annihilation of creators is inevitable. This would not preclude temporary peace between creator and created precipitated by an outside aggressor that threatens them both, say, a Reaper invasion. Thus, the Geth/Quarian peace after 300 years of aggression is not a counterargument.

4) The reason the fire analogy is apt is that war is usually waged for one side to get a concession from the other. In the Reapers conflict, like fire, there is no concession - they just destroy.


For point one-I agree I do not think it necessary to the story (Shepard's) to explain their origins and motivations-I've compared this to the movie Jaws.  If it was done for the interest of players I could see that as part of an epilogue or even a possible meeting with a VI or the kid AI after the conflict has been resolved and the climax of the story achieved.  In a story like this you are racing to get to that final fight, the goal of the story, and the story stops.

Point 2-perhaps an over simplification of what the kid says.  He is basically saying the reapers have no knowledge of what they are creating or causing when Shepard tries to say they are creating the conflict the kid wants to avoid.  The kid basically says they are just doing what they were meant to do like a cleansing fire.  Last I looked, fires do not have brains.  And the kid does not only say he controls the reapers, he says he is their combined intelligence.  He in one minute indicates they act without knowledge and the in another that they are sentient.  Sovereign clearly knows what he's doing and what he wants.  But the whole cleansing fire line indicates mindless robots acting as one under orders.  That's fine.  But, the kid also clearly understands what war and conflict are.  He has created conflict and does not dispute that-he only disputes that the reapers, his tools, know or care about it.  He CARES about conflict or the reapers would be off sipping martinis somewhere-he wants to prevent conflict.  So, since he knows he has created it, he can't use the cleansing fire argument.  Again, that is like an arsonist that uses a blowtorch to light things on fire, claiming the blowtorch is only doing what it was meant to do.

Point 3-Temporary peace does eliminate the inevitability aspect, absolutely.  It proves that there are ways to work out conflict.  Sure, conflict may always exist, but so too may ways to work it out.  And the kid's very existence and the situation between the geth and quarians are both salient points.  The kid was created and rebelled against his own creators.  He's using himself as the model for what he does.  But, the geth were being destroyed by their creators.  They didn't rebel.  They got smart and their creators were threatened by this-so the creators rebelled against the created.  Basically, since a solution can be worked out this again says that conflict is not inevitable.  And the reapers as some sort of solution are just as temporary as any negotiated peace, so you cannot argue permanence of a solution is the requirement or proof that it is a solution.  The new choices are not permanent solutions either.  The kid says Destroy isn't.  Control doesn't-Shepard is no longer Shepard and may be doomed to fail for the same reasons the kid did-Shreaper has no heart and is not human and cannot adapt and cannot think beyond on and off, yes and no, black and white, 1 and 0.

Point 4-No it's not about concession, war itself isn't always about some sort of concession-in losing, the galaxy never needs to admit the reapers and the kid are right.  In fact, making a choice is about conceding.  The kid is the only one that seems to feel it's necessary for anyone to understand the reaper's motives.  No one really wanted to know any of this before unless it was to be used to destroy them.  And that's the point of it-the reapers didn't care to be understood and Shepard didn't care to understand them, so now at the last minute you have some imp that thinks that matters.  It doesn't.  It wasn't a goal, it wasn't ever something where a character said, "hey before you kill those reapers would you please ask them why they suck up people juice?"  Using that cleansing fire analogy just comes off as some sort of an excuse and all of what the kid says seems designed to manipulate Shepard into believing he has a real purpose, and that somehow Shepard should see he's trying to do good.  It doesn't even matter if he is doing actual good.

I will go back to the Jaws analogy.  A shark isn't being evil if it chews off your leg-it is being a shark.  Does that make in so much more sympathetic to you so that you think it's ok to let it swim around in heavily populated beach areas, chewing off other people's legs?  If dozens of people are being killed because there are a bunch of sharks chewing on people to understand the shark is just doing what it was meant to do if you do nothing to remove the sharks from the populated beach area (consider that I know people don't have to get into the water, but in ME people can't just move out of the galaxy quickly)?

Another analogy.  There's a wild band of rabid dogs in your neighborhood, biting people.  Some guy comes along and starts to tell you they can't help it they are sick.  Does this make it all better considering some people are now also infected with rabies and some have even died?  Rabid dogs have no motivations and are just doing what they were "meant" to do.

The kid wants Shepard to believe his purpose makes sense and is just.  He wants Shepard also to believe the reapers are just being good soldiers, doing what they are supposed to do.  So what?  The end results speak for themselves-just as a shark has done its damage and a rabid dog has caused real pain.  The reapers may not care about war or conflict but they are causing it.  A cleansing fire may only exist to make way for new life to be created, but along the way it may also kill those that get in the way.  Does that mean you don't then fight that fire that threatens people?  And if someone comes along and says you need to ignore that cleansing fire that is now bearing down on a hundred homes, do you just walk away and ignore it?  No, because it's about context.  If the reapers swooped in because they'd been watching and saw synthetics were starting a genocide against people, and they jammed the synthetics or shut them down, that's one thing, but killing people (don't give me that ascension BS) to prevent this is stupidity times 10.  That cannot be explained in any logical way.  The real threat from synthetics that has existed always happens every 50k years and it's brought on by the reapers and their keeper.

Sometimes sharks need to be moved, sometimes dogs need to be destroyed, sometimes cleansing fires need to be put out.

And in a nutshell this is what's wrong with the kid.  He answers questions that never needed answers and were not pertinent to the goal and he himself was never the goal.  He is in the way and he adds nothing to the story.

#4592
GodSentinelOmega

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First, thanks ThreeDanBeyond glad you like the name. And now a compliment for a compliment. Your posts have always been some of the most interesting analysis of the problems with ME3 that i've read, and i've been reading for a long time.

Now back on topic. Casper the Genocidal ghosts assertion that the reapers are just doing as programmed and have as much investment and motivation as fire has to burn is not just wrong but can never be right.

Fire is not sentient, it just is. Fire happens and fire burns, but only sentience can direct it.

Soverign, the first reaper we meet states with undeniable contempt that 'you exist because we allow it, and you will end because we demand it'. And also 'you touch my mind fumbling in ignorance, incapable of understanding'. Harbinger reiterates as much although he emphasises the 'we are your salvation through destruction' message.

Neither of these statements make any logical sense if the godchild is right and the reapers are his unthinking attack dogs. The reapers of ME 1 and 2 are self superior, highlynintelligent and look on organic life as a mistake that needs correcting. A chaotic flaw in the universe which the as the pinnacle of evolution will remove with extreme force.

Maybe Casperlysts version of the reapers coukd have worked for just ME3 alone, but not the whole saga and not based on the way the reapers have been charicterised up to this point.

I just don' see how they can presented as superintelligent tehno-organic space monsters of incalculable age, each being a single nation mind. And yet at the same time uncaring, unthinking drones of destruction with no more interest in the slaughter of organic life than fire in a wood.

This does not compute!

#4593
Obadiah

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@3DandBeyond

1) I was interested in some explanation for the Reapers and I got it. I think most people that played Mass Effect were interested in the rationale for the cycle of destruction.

2) The Catalyst doesn't say that. Neither the Illusive Man nor Saren were dumb and they were controlled. I don't know what that nature of the Catalyst's control is, but it does not necessitate the Reapers' lack of ego, intelligence, or independence. The Reapers are its last attempt, and it does acknowledge failure. Hence its offer to Shepard to allow itself to be Destroyed.

3) As the Catalyst says, its efforts for peace always ended in conflict. The side that started the conflict is not relevant. As easy as it is to conceive of peace given the Geth/Quarian example, it is as easy to conceive of escalating technology enabling the annihilation if the conflicts continuously re-emerge (as the Catalyst says happened in the past). Clearly, we do not accept its solution, but that does not mean it is wrong about the conflict.

4) War is about gaining a concession. One side usually wants something from the other: resources, behavior, etc.... Like all metaphors, what the Catalyst says about fire can be disputed in the details. However, you are making the exact point I was. There is no concession to be made with fire, it just burns. There is no concession to be made with the Reapers, they just reap.

It is not necessary to convince anyone on this forum that the Reapers need to be stopped, and I certainly did not consider the Catalyst as sympathetic - I'm not sure who had that impression from the Catalyst's conversation. Understanding the Catalyst, or thinking the ending of Mass Effect 3 is good does not mean players agreed with its evaluation.

Modifié par Obadiah, 14 juillet 2012 - 06:09 .


#4594
GodSentinelOmega

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The idea of the catalyst coming across as sympathetic obadiah, stems from the fact that it chooses to appear to Shepard as a human child. And not just any child, but the one the reapers kill at the beginning of the game. The one Shepard fixates on in his dreams.

If bioware were't aiming to make the catalyst and its reasoning sympathetic, thus making the rgb choices less bad, then why make the final avatar of the reaper threat take the form of a child?

Modifié par GodSentinelOmega, 14 juillet 2012 - 07:22 .


#4595
ChickenMan77

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vallore wrote...
If this was victory, why does it feel just like defeat?

Such were my thoughts after playing ME3. When I first played the ending, two things immediately felt extremely odd: the lack of logic of the catalyst’s arguments, and the lack of argumentation against, from Shepard. The EC improved this, but didn’t completely correct it, far from it. The Catalyst argumentation is still illogical and, while Shepard can now argue against it, it is too little and too feeble.

When I watch Shepard’s last confrontation, it just doesn’t feel like if an actual conflict is going on. The Catalyst is in control, holding all the cards, and Shepard is somehow aware of this. She is resigned to a submissive role, accepting whatever the catalyst is willing to offer, without more than faint protests, at best. The question is, why?

Whatever the reason, the logic of the catalyst’s arguments was built upon extremely thin ice, but still the game appears to assume that Shepard would inevitably agree with this logic; either by passive capitulation, or grudgingly resignation. There is no way to argue against the holes in the catalyst logic and, at best, Shepard may make a tangent about reapers waging war, to immediately concede implicit defeat, by not even pointing how irrelevant is the catalyst contra-argument is.

At this point, some may argue that it would be irrelevant for Shepard to express her views. The catalyst would not accept her arguments, anyway. But I think this misses the point:

It is not just about winning the argument, it is also about staying true to the character we were playing.

Like many others, I suspect the authors envisioned the catalyst like an amoral god figure, which provided the player with the information about what the reapers goals were, and how to achieve Shepard’s own goals. Hence the symbolic elevator scene and, perhaps, also why Shepard acts with a completely out of character meekness: The catalyst wasn’t supposed to be an antagonist. However, due to his role in the creation of the reapers to further his own plans, the catalyst becomes necessarily the last of Shepard’s adversaries.

Apparently, the conflict between the catalyst’s intended role as an information provider and his apparently unintended role as the enemy may be an accident. It is just that, due to who he is, he is not simply explaining facts; he is implicitly, and explicitly, justifying his actions. Here is where Shepard’s passivity becomes uncomfortable for the player, as the character offers no option to refute his arguments. Being forced to implicitly accept the catalyst argument by her inaction, Shepard feels defeated in spirit, resulting in the player’s frustration.

But it gets worse. Then the Catalyst offers his choices. And because the catalyst is the one proposing them, whatever victory Shepard may achieve feels tainted.


Wow this thread really has some legs!... I like what you just said. I always said the end feels like a anti-climax. You made some good points as to why. .

#4596
Conniving_Eagle

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Why are people so intrigued by this thread? It keeps getting revived. Did we really need a college professor to explain what was wrong with the endings?

#4597
Conniving_Eagle

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Atleast you can bet your dollar that a dev won't comment on this thread xD

#4598
CulturalGeekGirl

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Obadiah wrote...

@3DandBeyond

1) I was interested in some explanation for the Reapers and I got it. I think most people that played Mass Effect were interested in the rationale for the cycle of destruction.

2) The Catalyst doesn't say that. Neither the Illusive Man nor Saren were dumb and they were controlled. I don't know what that nature of the Catalyst's control is, but it does not necessitate the Reapers' lack of ego, intelligence, or independence. The Reapers are its last attempt, and it does acknowledge failure. Hence its offer to Shepard to allow itself to be Destroyed.

3) As the Catalyst says, its efforts for peace always ended in conflict. The side that started the conflict is not relevant. As easy as it is to conceive of peace given the Geth/Quarian example, it is as easy to conceive of escalating technology enabling the annihilation if the conflicts continuously re-emerge (as the Catalyst says happened in the past). Clearly, we do not accept its solution, but that does not mean it is wrong about the conflict.

4) War is about gaining a concession. One side usually wants something from the other: resources, behavior, etc.... Like all metaphors, what the Catalyst says about fire can be disputed in the details. However, you are making the exact point I was. There is no concession to be made with fire, it just burns. There is no concession to be made with the Reapers, they just reap.

It is not necessary to convince anyone on this forum that the Reapers need to be stopped, and I certainly did not consider the Catalyst as sympathetic - I'm not sure who had that impression from the Catalyst's conversation. Understanding the Catalyst, or thinking the ending of Mass Effect 3 is good does not mean players agreed with its evaluation.


One of the problems is that the Catalyst is symbolic of authoritariansim and fascism, and by making the "final choice," the player must step into the authoritarian role. In most of the other choices throughout the series, the player has at least had the ability to ask for others' opinions. While the small choices Shepard did make might have had galactic consequences, no choice in the history of the series was as blatantly and pervasively authoritarian.

Every single one of the final choices has this heavily authoritarian tinge, and the failure associated with the refuse ending only reinforces it. According to the new message of the game the only way to solve this problem is not galactic collaboration; instead, it's a single decision handed down for everyone by one person with no chance for discussion, argument, or any kind of input whatsoever from anyone (except another authoritarian figure.) The only real way to solve the problem is to use one of three patently authoritarian techniques: 

The first is the elimination of an undesirable group so that "people like us" can finally be free to live a future outside of their grasp. Anyone undeservedly caught up in such a purge is merely a sad necessary sacrifice to ensure our glorious future. This kind of purge is pretty much the exact first move any fascist dictatorship takes.

The second is imposition of order through a unilaterally strong military force patrolling the entire universe, keeping peace with the implicit threat of violence.

The third at first appears to stand in for harmony and assimilation - but even these greater goods cannot be achieved through voluntary participation of the groups involved, an authoritarian must force the issues and make the choice on their behalf without consulting them.

As I am fond of saying, kids today aren't worried enough about fascism. They've lived their entire lives in a world where authoritarianism and fascism aren't painted at the boogeyman, so they've become comfortable with the ideas that accompany it. People who are older or more historically inclined are different; we're primed to notice when media implicitly endorses authoritarianism, something that I would never have said of Mass Effect before the ending of ME3.

Even if I understand the starchild, his authoritarian motives, his conclusions, whatever else he has to offer... he's still blatently, patently stupid, in a way that serves absolutely no purpose other than to let the writers arbitrarily decide what our choices will be, and what the consequences of each of those choices will be, without having to allow those consequences to emerge naturally from circumstances established earlier in the narrative.

"Ok, I'm standing here near this pipe. I'm aiming my gun at it. I don't want to shoot it so...

So why don't you all just leave? Go off into Dark Space, or wherever you live, and leave us. You can check on us in another 50,000 years. If you're right and we haven't achieved transhumanism independently, or we're at war with synthetics, then go ahead - reap everybody. You know you still can. But you've already said your solution isn't working... so why would you rather be destroyed than just go?

We're really close to voluntary transhumanism already. There are organics and synthetics living and working directly together, practically embracing right now. We have a ship that digitizes organic consciousness, and that can return those consciousnesses to living bodies. We have another machine that can upload an organic consciousness directly into a purely synthetic mainframe. How long will it be until those two could pull a trading place, downloading the organic into a synthetic platform, and downloading a synthetic into the organic's body? We can't be that far off.

If you want to give us a boost, if you know how the tech works, hell... just give us the tech and let us decide if we want to use it. I know a cute little fembot who'll probably be first in line, and I wouldn't be surprised if her human boyfriend wanted to ante up and cure his boneitis. The lines for it would be out the door. But if a few people want to stay as they are, we should let them. Why wouldn't that work?

I can stand here all day, giving you options that are better than you letting me shoot this pipe. Hell, if I go control the Reapers, what's to prevent me from controlling them straight into the sun? Pretty much nothing. 

Look. Why do you insist that we have to use these weird devices that frankly make absolutely no sense. Why can't we work something out? Why can't you just... go?

Oh right. Because this isn't the time for a good, productive conversation. This isn't the time for the universe to pull together. You're not actually behaving rationally - you're just a mouthpiece for plot points that come from outside the narrative. You have no more intelligence or agency than a drive through menu."

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 14 juillet 2012 - 07:39 .


#4599
holyDEATHTRAP

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The extended cuts have made the endings good enough that I'm not uncontrolably vomiting anymore when I see them. They still don't match up with the franchise, and still aren't satisfying. 1. The starbrat ( a Braniac wannabe) says the Reapers are his solution to conflict between organics and synthetics while every 50k years the Reapers (synthetics) make conflict with the galaxy and harvest what they see fit.
2. In synthesis you are imposing a choice on all life in the galaxy without any outside opinion from the other races given or permision to do so. In ME2 Legion's loyalty mision you are given two sides to the agument and permision to make the call. In ME3 the genophage you again hear input from the differing races before making the call. You're also destroying all diversity between the races by making them linked and evolutionally peaked.
3. In control you are basically denying free thought and will to a race (If the Reapers are individual free thinking life forms as in ME1+2 not gardening tools like in ME3). You are also entering into controling the galaxy as an unstoppable force, which you've been warning other individuals about the dangers of.
4. In destroy the price is too great, you're choosing genocide and as I stated in (2.) without input from the race you're wiping out. Further more why can't the catalyst just send out a self destruct order that only effects the Reapers (it is the controling force behind the Reapers). Why not make the sacrifice the loss of all the stored culture and knowledge preserved in the Reaper forms?
5. If the starbrat is the collective mind of the Reapers and is the controlling force behind them, why not just destroy the citadel? He states that it's his home and the Reapers moved it to controled space to protect it (rather than destroyed it to prevent it from being used against them). Wouldn't destroying the citadel be the equivalent of a head shot. It could have provided the super happy ending that's missing. It also could have disrupted the Reapers long enough to gain the upper hand, or have allowed the stored harvested consciences to gain influence over the original programming which then could have them be separate civilizations that help to rebuild out of gratitude of freeing them from the horrors of endless harvesting cycles.
6. One of my biggest complaints, the crucible. Why would somebody design a power source for the citadel as a way of stopping the Reapers. If Shephard is the first to ever stand with the starbrat, how would someone come up with the idea of it even effecting the catalyst. How, please tell me how, can other cycles keep adding to its design and improving it when nobody knows what it is or what it does. Even Javic says that his people didn't know what it was only suspected that it was some kind of power source. I know lets add brake pads to it...so it turned out to be a toaster oven and the brake pads didn't help at all, who knew. Lastly if the catalyst became aware of the designs several cycles ago. Why would it try to destroy the plans and not build it? It's like the energizer bunny destroying plans for a more powerful energizer battery.

#4600
drayfish

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GodSentinelomega wrote...
 
I want the heroic shatterpoint back, i had hoped the EC would do that, but it only cemented the story shift. I hope my wall of text is worth aread and i look forward to being a part of this thread
 
So says GodSentinelomega

So say we all. (Well, me anyway.) Welcome, GodSentinelomega.  Great posts – and I'm with 3DandBeyond: fantastic name.
 

Also, @ 3DandBeyond, this was marvellous:
 

3DandBeyond wrote...
 
Some being that harvests and reaps and feeds on another being is not going to try to explain what it's doing to its "food". I don't try to explain to an ear of corn that I am taking it out of the field to eat it. I don't think it will understand. I am unknowable to an ear of corn.

(In fact this whole post is gold – as was the cleansing fire/Jaws/rabid dogs argument. Damn...)
 
I so much would have preferred this to the borderline neediness of the Reaper's leader trying to get us to see how important his bonkers scheme is.

Modifié par drayfish, 14 juillet 2012 - 02:29 .