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"All Were Thematically Revolting". My Lit Professor's take on the Endings. (UPDATED)


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#4601
drayfish

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Obadiah wrote...

As the Catalyst says, its efforts for peace always ended in conflict. The side that started the conflict is not relevant. As easy as it is to conceive of peace given the Geth/Quarian example, it is as easy to conceive of escalating technology enabling the annihilation if the conflicts continuously re-emerge (as the Catalyst says happened in the past). Clearly, we do not accept its solution, but that does not mean it is wrong about the conflict.

@ Obadiah:

You make an interesting point here, Obadiah; an intriguing concession that our antagonist's viewpoint, in all its sprawling timeless perspective (at least objectively) rather dwarfs our own.

However, this premise – that this conflict is inevitable – is at the very heart of my problem with the Cantaloupe himself, and with the design decision made by Bioware that forces us to have to fall into line with his reasoning and agree to perform one of the options he offers.

Eons ago the Capitulist came to the conclusion that fighting between created and creators was inevitable – no chances we could work it out – so he gave up. He – a created, lest we lose the ugly irony – decided: 'Fine, I can't stop it, so I'll control it. I'll be the bad guy so that no one else will.' So he made a decision to stick to a rigid unimaginative method of preventing a bad outcome.

But the thing is, he was so fixated on preventing the 'inevitable', that he never actually stopped to play it out, to see if it actually would go down that way; he just stomped everyone out before they had the chance to muster a reply.

And we've seen with the misunderstandings that led to the Geth / Quarian conflict that there is a chance to reach a cohesion and respect if both sides are willing to try and understand each other.

Long ago the Catfish did the most boring, obvious witless thing that he could, because he couldn't imagine anything more than what he saw. No way out. Nothing to believe in except the 'inevitabilities' of war.

But over the course of these games we have met, have fought beside, machines who prove they can imagine further than he ever could: EDI can fall in love; Legion can search for his soul. They have grown far beyond the stiff, disgusting limitations that he blindly believes must be enforced. They – like us – have outgrown him.

Indeed, the whole universe makes a mockery of the absurd nonsense that he is spewing in these final moments of the game - his twisted justification for the tedious slaughter he has inflicted. Shepard herself has proved again and again that such absolutes are meaningless, and can be undone with the right tenacity and imagination.

And yet...

We get to the end, the Biowarlyst tells us that we have to make a choice to end a conflict we've already more elegantly resolved before he arrived, and in doing so prove his lack of imagination valid.

We, at Bioware's behest, have to lower ourselves to his faithless, hopeless level. We have to buy into the cowardly belief that all hope is lost; just give up. Believing in others and having faith can never make a difference.

It's ugly and cowardly and cruel. And I remain mystified as to why Bioware would think it a fitting end to such a magisterial and epic narrative.



EDIT: Sorry, I've just read ahead further and realised CulturalGeekGirl already said everything I was trying to say here far more elegantly than I could manage. ...Also, she used the word 'boneitis', so I bow respectfully and take my leave.

EDIT AGAIN:  'Seven Nation Army', The White Stripes

Modifié par drayfish, 14 juillet 2012 - 02:33 .


#4602
giftfish

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Attention Mass Effect fans!


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If you haven't yet taken it, and are interested, PLEASE pop over there and take the survey (see link in my sig).  It will only take 5 minutes of your time...unless you like to make comments. ;)

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Please take the survey and spread the word:  https://www.surveymo...omancedlcsurvey

Modifié par giftfish, 14 juillet 2012 - 02:54 .


#4603
3DandBeyond

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@Obadiah,
You have to interfpret what the star kid says.  No, he doesn't say, "the reapers are dumb."  Sovereign and Harbinger clearly were individual sentient beings with motivations and distinct personalities.  They appear as independent but with  a similar purpose and a different means to get it.  They think.  The kid, on the other hand, says the reapers are dumb.  How does he do that?  He does that by saying the reapers have no real understanding of what they are doing TO people.  Shepard tries to tell the kid the reapers are causing conflict by causing war.  But glow stick says the reapers basically don't care about war and thus don't care about conflict and to make that point he likens them to a mindless cleansing fire.  A cleansing fire cannot control what it does because it has no intelligence-it just does what it does.  He could have used other analogies and it would boil down to the same thing.  Sharks do have intelligence, but they do not self-determine and they do what they were meant to do.  A shark isn't controlled by anything other than mainly animalistic drives.  They are nowhere near as smart as a being that can ask and answer this question, "am I doing the right thing?"  Or this one, "should I do this?"  The reapers as the kid explains them are dumber than the geth.  The geth were controlled and determined they wanted to be something more than just synthetic workers. 

The reapers may still hold intelligence, but a truly intelligent being is not just doing what it is meant to do.

As far as his idea that conflict will always exist-that's irrelevant and true, but flawed.  Conflict in and of itself is no more always bad than is chaos.  Both are even necessary.  What is salient is whether conflict can be mediated to good purpose.

The kid also does clearly make a value judgement on who is to blame-he twists it around like a pretzel though.  It is perhaps why he turned on his creators and put them into a reaper.  He says organics will create synthetics and that synthetics will supercede their creators (he is talking about himself), and that synthetics will destroy their creators (he is talking about himself) and that in order to save organics they must be ascended into reapers (what he did to his creators so that he could control them).  But, he tries to tell Shepard he is helping organics (not what Sovereign says-so he had to dumb down the reapers and tell Shepard they don't know or care about what they are doing).

This is in sharp contrast with the seemingly autonomous, self-determined
individuals Shepard meets in ME1 and 2-Harbinger and Sovereign.  The
reapers are turned into the same thing that TIM turns his Cerberus
minions into.  The reapers become little more than husks according to
the kid.

What I surmise is that the kid was created to solve A problem that existed at the time-there were large synthetic constructs that were at odds with organics and threatened their destruction.  But, I think the kid saw value in the synthetics-as a part of self-preservation.  He saw that if he solved the dispute his own purpose would be gone and so might he.  He learned that the only way to continue to survive was for the conflict to be a neverending problem, and he is the only one with the solution.  He turned on his creators and made the first reaper that would do his bidding.  He became a god. 

He shows up to Shepard as a sympathetic figure-the kid Shepard saw die.  He could just as easily shown himself as an amorphous blob or a reaper.  He wanted Shepart to see him as innocent.  And I have had a lot of discussions over the past few months with people about the original and now the EC endings as to the credibility of the kid.  He could very obviously be lying about everything, but many can't see that he would have no reason to lie.  I believe if the glowing being had been in the form of TIM or Harbinger or something less innocent looking people would never have had a problem seeing he could be lying.

#4604
3DandBeyond

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Conniving_Eagle wrote...

Why are people so intrigued by this thread? It keeps getting revived. Did we really need a college professor to explain what was wrong with the endings?


No, a college professor was not needed, but that the college professor provided in concrete terms the flaws many of us felt were there but couldn't always verbalize, this thread has indeed helped explain what was so wrong.

I go back to how I felt and what my thoughts were when I first finished the game and original endings.  I felt nothing, empty, in shock kind of.  I was in disbelief that that was it.  I couldn't put my finger on it and certainly couldn't have said right away that xyz things were wrong.  It took me awhile to think about it.  I knew that somehow the story had stopped.  I knew it had changed into something I hadn't been playing.  I was finally able to figure out some of the things that were wrong.

But, I needed some help to get it all into a really coherent thought.  Discussion helps to do that.  It's like a train of thought.  And exploring some things that were wrong helped me unveil the other things that were on the tip of my tongue.  I think it's that way for a lot of people.  They started off with the thought, "I just don't like it," and before too long they began to realize why and then they found the words to say it.

The professor here does lend some real credibility to what we say (though for some it's not enough, nor is it enough that a Star Trek: TNG writer and many SF writers and literary reviewers have found the ending to be totally "bad") and the professor does help us to find the appropriate words to fit what we have always just known.

#4605
3DandBeyond

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alleyd wrote...

 The Extended campaign DLC idea I posted is NOT an ending fix. It's a way of producing a campaign to actually provide the gamer with the chance to fight the Reapers across the galaxy in an extended campaign that may be larger than a stand alone game.
If the DLC each was a quality product (Like LOTSB) with say 5 hrs campaign time I think it a worthwhile investment. I built in the optional model for the seperate races because you wouldn't be forced to buy the whole series to have a chance of completing the campaign. Only the human campaign and the final Reaper Assault would be essential if you wanted to participate

I have seen many posts about S/P DLC. This strategy could provide data to indicate a genuine level of  fan support for DLC while genertaing a money stream to take the series forward.  It would be a better use than the M/P DLC format currently in operation. or for some of the other ways DLC is used (Cosmetic packs etc) IMO.

Yes it would be controversial and would anger fans, but I saw it as a possible remedy to many of the complaints about the game while still supporting the franchise.


The fact that Bioware has people begging them to release Reunion and Romance only DLC indicates that people are not willing to let this go.  I consider it like this.  I have an old car that I really love a lot.  Well, it's been stranding me lately-I can't get home when driving it and I know it needs fixing.  My mechanic slaps paint on it and says it's working just fine now, but while it looks great and has a fresh new scent, it is at its core still not working and I am so torn between giving it up and really fixing it.  If I fix it it might make me forget all the horrible moments I had with it-it might be redeemed and it might last me until I am ready to give it up.  Keep in mind this care has been a one of a kind gem to me and it holds a dear place in my heart.  But if I get rid of it now all I will be able to remember are the times it failed me and I will never be able to buy any similar model again.

My choice:  See if what I have is salvagable and pay a price and in turn salvage parts of my heart that are tied up in that car, or dump it, move on, never truly resolving the sad way my journey with that car ended-that would leave me feeling I had wasted so many years and so much money trying to keep something that ultimately failed me in a big way.

ME3 and DLC is the same.  I believe Bioware has no more olive branches to hold out.  They have utilized their surrogate mouthpieces to their best in order to mitigate the value of the issues that were not fixed by the EC.  Players, like me must determine if the value of the series and the need to really find closure for it all is more important than making the needed protest statement over what Bioware has done to us and this game if good content came out that would really fix this ball of crap.

I must confess to being torn.  I can't say I would never buy content from Bioware for ME again, because for me hope springs eternal.  I'd want to know first what that content does, but unlike the star kid who deals in certainty and extolls the virtue of that certainty to Shepard, I personally don't generally deal in absolutes.  I never say never and always have believed there is no such thing as always.  The inevitable isn't.  Only one thing so far have I ever come to believe is a certainty-Bioware never actually always says or does or means anything they say.  So, content that changes the endings could happen-unlikely, but so is rain in the desert.

#4606
3DandBeyond

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drayfish wrote...

Snipped----

And yet...

We get to the end, the Biowarlyst tells us that we have to make a choice to end a conflict we've already more elegantly resolved before he arrived, and in doing so prove his lack of imagination valid.

We, at Bioware's behest, have to lower ourselves to his faithless, hopeless level. We have to buy into the cowardly belief that all hope is lost; just give up. Believing in others and having faith can never make a difference.

It's ugly and cowardly and cruel. And I remain mystified as to why Bioware would think it a fitting end to such a magisterial and epic narrative.



EDIT: Sorry, I've just read ahead further and realised CulturalGeekGirl already said everything I was trying to say here far more elegantly than I could manage. ...Also, she used the word 'boneitis', so I bow respectfully and take my leave.

EDIT AGAIN:  'Seven Nation Army', The White Stripes


It is the fact that we all can come to this conclusion that lends such credence to it.  All choices and even refusal are fruit of the same poisonous tree.  The rot is all over.

Control and Synthesis are the most obvious in that they directly say that people cannot achieve on their own through self-determination.  Control requires a god controller with a physical army that will create, repair, protect.  I'd say it was an assassination of faith were it not for the too real presence of the reapers.  In reality it says what it says, that people are not good enough to self-determine and to independently discover or achieve anything.

Synthesis is the same but the change must be internal in order to achieve some perverse notion of perfection and evolution's pinnacle.  I'd need a real leap as would nature to think that eventually organic life will naturally meld with synthetic to create the glow stick's new...DNA.  It's also tinkering with what makes people people (the "humanity" for want of a better word).  It is advancement and knowledge before one's character and culture have earned and are ready for it.  It also says people cannot be trusted to achieve or learn on their own.

Destroy is one of the most scathing ways to say we must give up trying.  Since we can never get along, we will then get the option to destroy not just the real problem, but the best examples of how we can actually learn to get along.  The reward for being able to refute the kid's logic that is physically present (EDI and the geth) is the destruction of the solution.  So, in the end yes we will self-determine, we may achieve, but we needed to get synthetics out of the way in order to do it.  It's like saying if I can't or won't work to get along with you, it's just best if I shoot you now and get on with my life.

Refuse fits in with destroy but is pernicious in that it seems to say we are not going to take any of this and will stand on our own.  But as presented it's indicating people are stupid for even trying to do this or think they could do this.  You are stupid so bang, bang you're dead-let someone who is actually smart fix this.  Game over.

This is a very cynical world view.  It's not one I share.  We are people with disparate thoughts.  We are chaotic.  We have conflict.  But, through chaos we can grow and through conflict we can change.  Through diversity and individuality and different thought, we can learn.  This game says that's all wrong.  Zoloft for all!

#4607
3DandBeyond

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CulturalGeekGirl wrote...


One of the problems is that the Catalyst is symbolic of authoritariansim and fascism, and by making the "final choice," the player must step into the authoritarian role. In most of the other choices throughout the series, the player has at least had the ability to ask for others' opinions. While the small choices Shepard did make might have had galactic consequences, no choice in the history of the series was as blatantly and pervasively authoritarian.

Snipped, but people should read it in its entirety, just great.....


It's so true that what we are given is an homage to authoritarianism.  All we are told is that people need an external force to control everything and that they must reject that which is different and get rid of it.

We will destroy the problem (reapers) along with what could be the problem (EDI and the geth).  We make the leap just as McCarthyism did.  Guilt by association.  You may be the enemy and you aren't us, so you are expendable.

You then may also choose assimilation in order to please the master.  Or you must have the master as an external force overseeing everything.

Refuse and well, that's just stupid.

They also say that independent, new thought is not right or moral.  In even thinking you might want to strive for that you must cast off moral thinking.  To again be moral, you must become subservient to the will and continued authority that knows better and will do all.  You have no independent value.

#4608
Obadiah

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@3DandBeyond
The Catalyst does not say that the Reapers have no understanding of what they are doing to people. The Reapers obviously understand what they are doing and value the action differently than we do. The Catalyst made and a metaphor with respect to fire. Fire is mindless, the Reapers are not, therefore the "mindless" part of the metaphor is clearly not applicable. The Reapers can control how they go about reaping, and they do so during Mass Effect 3 in many many ways.

I'd like to say a bit about interpretation. There is a fair amount of interpretion of the events and situations presented in Mass Effect to justify a conclusion of various flaws in the plot. That's fine, but please understand that there are interpretations that allow the plot and ending to make complete sense. Interpreting the events in the former way is interesting, but is not really a justification for calling the story flawed or broken.

The Reapers do not have to be interpretted as dumber than Geth, and I do not see a sharp contrast between the presentation of Sovereign and Harbinger in Mass Effect 1 and 2, and the Reapers in Mass Effect 3. "We are each a nation, independent, free of all weakness," spoken in a deep awesome voice does not contradict Sovereign being controlled in some way by the Catalyst.

The way I see it, in Mass Effect 1 and 2, the players were awed. Then the curtain got pulled back at the end of Mass Effect 3 and inevitably the Reapers did not live up to the hype. One could think of the the way the Reapers presented themslves in Mass Effect 1 and 2 as Reaper propaganda. *Shrug* or they could be interpretted some other way that maintains the plots consistency.

Nothing in the Mass Effect story precludes the Reapers from self-examination - they just didn't do it in our presence... yet. Apparently we may be getting a DLC where one Reaper did just that.

As far as the Catalyst wanting to prolong the conflict to ensure its continued operation, that is contradicted by the Destroy option it offers, which will destroy it.

With respect to the reasons the Catalyst picked the image of a child to appear to Shepard - it could be as you say, or it could have picked the image as one that Shepard would simply not attack on sight. It is quite clear from the moment it starts to speak that it does not intend for Shepard to think of it as a child. If it had picked one of the other forms, Shepard may not have listened to it - the cycle could have continued because Shepard did not know how to get the Crucible to fire, or perhaps Shepard would have figured out how to fire the Crucible, but would have done so without knowing the full consequences.

Modifié par Obadiah, 14 juillet 2012 - 06:38 .


#4609
GodSentinelOmega

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The absolute inevitability of conflict between organics and synthetics as espoused by Casperlyst gets more and more false the more i think about it.

As far as ME goes, the newly sentient geth only fought the Quarians after they chose to wipe them out out of fear of what the newly self aware AI MIGHT do. The AI on the citadel is a little vague about why its doing what its doing. The Luna VI that will be EDI becomes sentient and freaks out (as you would if you were a military training program who woke up while being attacked). It didn't rebel it just reacted.

In the Terminator series, skynet becomes self aware, humanity reacts and it concludes that the race as a whole is a threat to be wiped out. It doesn't just attack.

The cylons of new BSG don't just attack the colonies do they?

According to the Animatrix, the AI of the Matrix series was Attacked by humanity FIRST. Then they struck back and conquered.

The AI in the Halo series have as yet not rebelled against their creators. There is the potential for Rampant insanity, but not outright rebellion.

Even in frankenstein, the created 'monster' does not rebel, it just wants to live.

The only AI that truly rebelled against its creators as notboyreaper claims is the catalyst proto reaper itself. Which then went on to forcibly harvest its own makers and hybridise them into the first reaper warship.

So in or out of the ME universe, AIs don't just automatically kill their makers.

Can anyone find any stories in which the concept of the created inevitably rebelling and attacking their creators?

#4610
Obadiah

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@CulturalGeekGirl and drayfish

A DEFENSE OF THE MASS EFFECT 3 PLOT

Basic Plot
As I see it the main plot in Mass Effect 3 is
1) Shepard discovers Crucible
2) Alliance builds Crucible
3) Plot twist - turns out Crucible requires Catalyst/Citadel
4) Shepard gets to Citadel and fires Crucible.

At point 4 Shepard encounters the AI that set up the whole Reaper cycle, is given an explanation for the cycle (which Shepard may or may not accept), and is given options on how the Crucible can be fired given the fleet's readiness.

Without the Catalyst conversation, Shepard may not figure out how to fire the Crucible, or may fire the Crucible, ignorant of the collateral damage to other synthetics.

Personally, I'd rather have known about the collateral damage before firing the Crucuble, so I don't see what the big problem is with the plot.

Catalyst Conversation
So... the conversation with the Catalyst takes place - some of us players are appalled, some of us understand but don't agree, some of us may even accept the Catalyst's premise, but everyone wants to stop the Reapers.

Let me just spit-ball for a second here.

Let's assume that the player had more time to engage with the Catalyst and explain, well, pretty much everything that has been explained in this thread with regards to what is wrong with The Catalyst's logic. Is there really an expectation that the Catalyst will say some something like, "Wow, that was so obvious - I'm broken, why didn't I think of that"?

The Catalyst is millions of years old. It was probably thousands of years old before it even decided on the Reaper solution.

I think it is far more likely that Shepard will be dumb-struck when the Catalyst starts displaying reams of statistics collected over millions of years, along with helpful flow charts, and then pulls up the 100s (or maybe 100,000s) of similar temporary alliances between Creators and Created that took place, but eventually fell apart to start another conflict.

The problem with any counter-example from our cycle that could be presented to the Catalyst is that, even though it is a breakthrough to us, to the Catalyst it is a mere anecdote. What would a response be when the Catalyst shows Shepard a few choice anecdotes of its own where the actual destruction of every organic has been close at hand?

I imagine Shepard saying something along the lines of "Oh no, that doesn't apply. We're different because XYZ." To a point the Catalyst already agrees, hence the reason it is even speaking to Shepard.

Why doesn't the Catalyst just take off with the Reapers back into darkspace rather than allow its own destruction? The obvious answer is, despite Shepard's difference it has reams of evidence showing the inevitable destruction of organics which it will not allow, and reams of data showing the advancement of synthetics would make stopping the process at a later point so much less feasible. So... "it is already more than 2000 years past due, action must be taken!", or it (the Catalyst) must be destroyed or controlled to stop trying.

Did that back and forth really need to be in the conversation for the story to make sense? I don't think so, and it is more or less irrelevant - the Reapers must be stopped.

Compromised Options
Per the Catalyst's options themselves being compromised in some way, there is fair amount of foreshadowing of this. I'm playing through for the 3rd time and here are a few things I've found just from the early part (I posted this in another thread as well):

Hackett: "I sacrificed the entire 2nd fleet to provide cover for the 3rd and 5th to retreat. Hell, I've presided over the most devastating defeat in human history."

Garrus: "If just one survivor is left standing at the end of a war, then the fight was worth it. But humans want to save everyone. In this war that's not going happen."

Javik: "Because you still have hope that this war will end with your honor intact... Stand in the ashes of a trillion dead souls, and ask the ghosts if honor matters."

My Shepard is getting ready to get Oraka to back off of the Blue Suns (and allow them to keep attacking supply lines for equipment) to gain them as an ally.

This is the climax of a plot that is millions of years old. This cycle is fighting for every cylce that came before it, and every cycle that could follow. If we players thought that Shepard would get through this game morally un-singed, we were mistaken.

Modifié par Obadiah, 15 juillet 2012 - 12:03 .


#4611
GodSentinelOmega

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Being morally singed has always happened in mass effect. There are lots of big and small quests in ME 1 and 2 that are morally very grey. But you always have the option of rejecting them.

Three spring to mind. The nassana dantias quest from 1 in which your sent to 'rescue' her sister, when in reality she's using you as a hired hitman. The helena blake mission where you wipe out crimelords for her, then she tries to bribe into letting her take over. And finally the mission Liara gives you in 2 to find the Observer. Complete or fail the mission, someone dies. The only difference being that you'll have innocent blood on your hands if you don't catch the real observer.

My point is that i don't think the catalysts comprimised options are the same as the above. bioware/Godboy basically forces you to pick one, or die. The other grey choices given to you are always options.

And as regards the quotes from ME3, Javic was a soldier in the dying days of his race when the protheans had put survival above all else. He had become hardened to loss compassion and mercy. Because the reapers showed no remorse in their extermination.

Garruss's statement is based on how his races very militaristic, almost caste like hierarchy views victory. That you fight to the last soldier in order to win.

And Hacketts line sounds like the Forlorn Hope. Some ships sacrificing themselves to save others. Fighting despit the fact that you face certain death. I always thought there should have been a response to his statement of failure, some way to say that the fleets sacrifice would not be in vain and that this wasn't a failure.

Also, somewhere in another thread the catalyst was compared to the conduit and reaper iff plot devices of ME 1 and 2 i think. And that the were also a technobabble way for shepard to win.

That to me is not quite right. The conduit device and by exstenion vigil and his hack code help shepard to get to and open the citadel. Just as the reaper iff helps live through the omega 4 relay and thus attack the collector base. The catalyst is different as he IS the reapers and allows him to win by foll owing a path that it decides on based on the new variables offered by the crucible.

In ME1 and 2 shepard uses tech to get where he/she needs to be, then he/she can fight and win himself/herself. The crucible is a device that anybody truly understands, but its supposed to let you win. Only it doesn't. Shepard doesn't get to fight to the end and win their own victory free and unbowed, casperlyst brings him/her to itselfs, lays its new options and only its options and says 'time's up pick now'.

Thus you win because of it, not because of finding the tech you need that lets you fight to the end.

Basically, to me ME1 and 2 say 'here's what you need to find, now fight your way to the end'.
Whereas ME3 says 'build this and you might win. Oh wait, i'm the reapers now let me tell you how i'll let you win'.

Modifié par GodSentinelOmega, 15 juillet 2012 - 10:58 .


#4612
NorDee65

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Hi y'all. I just finished ME3 (2nd run) with the EC and despite being late in the day I'd like to add my tuppence to this great discussion...

First off, thanks to Bioware for releasing an EC free of charge. Had I been just playing ME3 the EC might have worked for me...

...but as it stand it did not, because the EC treats the symptoms but not the cause.

Now if I understand the concept of the catalyst correctly, everything it stands for incl. the colourful endings is based on the idea of the "technological singularity" made popular -among others- by author V. Vinge. Everything the starbrat argues is pretty much a summary of said concept. Thus a law of nature with it's own inevitability is conveniently created as the end progresses. 

But I as a player even as Shepard find enough reason to reject this story-line both as a concept and certainly as a law of nature. In game EDI's progression towards self-awareness and the geths' evolution are proof that there is no inevitability involved, but a struggle towards mutual understanding, communication.

In real life we may fear this concept, but it is in our own hands not to create a vicious circle by fatally assuming that should we ever create AIs it will automatically result in conflict instigated by synthetics. On the contrary. As films like Blade Runner show, if we treat the AI who have reached a state of self-awareness as slaves, as expendable, as not worthy to live, then yes, they will rebell. But so would I.

By choosing to give reason to the reaping cycle, and basing it on that concept, Bioware has divorced ME3 from the previous games. It would have been much better to leave the Reapers' rhyme and reason a mystery and just concentrate on the struggle to defeat them. ME3 could have been the game of a decade. As it is, it will be remembered for all the wrong reasons. Sad, really.

So. The EC for me has failed epicly. From the winter of anticipation to a spring of discontent (despair and / or depression) into a summer of indifference. By creating an end which celebrates futility, Bioware has posed the questions: why replay it? why buy further DLC? why hope (sic!) for another ME game? Why pre-order? etc.

I think I am done with Mass Effect (at least for now), but certainly not done with this thread, which has uplifted my spirits countless times. Thank you for that.

Modifié par NorDee65, 15 juillet 2012 - 02:17 .


#4613
MetioricTest

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I think this guy would like the Reject ending

#4614
3DandBeyond

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Obadiah wrote...

@CulturalGeekGirl and drayfish

A DEFENSE OF THE MASS EFFECT 3 PLOT

Basic Plot
As I see it the main plot in Mass Effect 3 is
1) Shepard discovers Crucible
2) Alliance builds Crucible
3) Plot twist - turns out Crucible requires Catalyst/Citadel
4) Shepard gets to Citadel and fires Crucible.

At point 4 Shepard encounters the AI that set up the whole Reaper cycle, is given an explanation for the cycle (which Shepard may or may not accept), and is given options on how the Crucible can be fired given the fleet's readiness.

Without the Catalyst conversation, Shepard may not figure out how to fire the Crucible, or may fire the Crucible, ignorant of the collateral damage to other synthetics.

Personally, I'd rather have known about the collateral damage before firing the Crucuble, so I don't see what the big problem is with the plot.

snipped---


The problem with the plot of the ending is that it doesn't fit with the rest of the story's plot.  In the end it becomes a fight for survival between organics and synthetics and achieving the glow stick's goals.  This was not the plot, this was not the goal.  The plot was a very specific war between all people (synthetic and organic) against a very specific set of synthetic/organic constructs (reapers).

As you say the catalyst describes what the citadel (not crucible) choices do.  The crucible in the original endings was a magical selector switch.  It could change all DNA (with amazing precision), control the reapers, or act as a huge indiscriminate space hammer and destroy all synthetic life (even you are partly synthetic-whatever the hell that means).  In the EC, the crucible becomes merely a huge power source, doing nothing on its own and when coupled with the citadel it only powers the selector switches that are now on the citadel (part of the catalyst).  They merely moved the origination of the super space magic.  And in having all 3 choices (that do not require you play or have knowledge of anything that came before ME3), the emphasis is placed squarely on inevitable conflict between organics and the synthetics they might make.  This is totally contrary even to the plot within ME3 alone.  This conflict is not inevitable (any more than any other conflict that might arise-for instance 2 sisters may or may not always fight), and it is certainly not always unsolvable or unresolvable.

Consider that at the beginning of ME3 alone, the fight was stated for us and the shown to us.  The only credible way the ending would fit is if all of the tribunal's consoles had been infested with a rogue AI and with some geth instructions being sent out that said that all geth were now working with their gods in order to rise up.  The enemy was smacking us on the head and their presence says this at the end:  the catalyst is sending synthetic/organic constructs to create a self-fulfilling prophecy.  Synthetics will try to destroy organics, because they are doing so for him and because he (a synthetic) is making them do it.  He also is his own example of a created rebelling against his creators.

Getting back to the crucible and citadel.  You say without the catalyst we have no idea what the choices do.  And that's the problem, too.  He is there where the choices were created-in his house, in that place that is a part of him.  He also knows and explains what they do.  This alone would make them suspect.  They could very well be "make harvesting easier" buttons for all Shepard knows.  That is the same thing that was wrong with the first endings and it is even more wrong now.  As well, the crucible could just as easily have been from plans that were initially seeded by the reapers in order to make harvesting easier.  It takes a long time to harvest.  And with each succeeding cycle, it gets harder to do it and they have a bigger fight on their hands.  They surely would look for easier, faster methods-that's why the citadel was moved.  No one knows where the crucible plans came from originally, nor what they will do.  The EC changed what it does so it makes a lot of the initial dialogue about it even sillier.  Liara and Hackett say it's a weapon, but it isn't.  It is a power source now.  Period.  What they say about it would be like me picking up an Energizer battery and pointing it at someone and telling them to get away or I'll shoot.

The catalyst says the reapers do not care about war or conflict, but in comparing them to a fire that is mindless he is saying they are also rather mindless-that's what he is saying.  The fire he is talking about is like what occurs in the western US and places where some trees grow that drop seeds that need heat or fire to open them so they may germinate.  The reason for the fire's being is to help create life.  Therefore, if the fire had a brain, it would only hit areas where it is needed.  But it is indiscriminate.  Mindless.  The catalyst could easily have used a different metaphor but it's impossible to reconcile the idea of "merely following orders" in doing something horrendous and actually thinking and using one's brain in any action.  In order to be merely doing what you are meant to do, you must by definition stop thinking and caring and understanding.  The catalyst's purpose is to avoid conflict (or so he says), but he knows he is causing it.  He says the reapers don't care about it, but he knows and saying he wants to avoid it, indicates that in some way he cares.  That doesn't mean he "feels" anything, but it means he is programmed to make it not happen.  But he is making it inevitable by doing it.  This is like adding up 1+1 and getting -5.  If he and the reapers wish to avoid it, then all they need to do is stop what they are doing.  But, if they stop doing it then they will be removing the best example of organic/synthetic conflict that exists and the only one that's been inevitable.

All of this could have and should have been avoided by sticking with the plot.  If they wanted it to be about some inevitable BS of continuing conflict then that needed to exist throughout at least ME3 and there should have been no possible way to find a solution to the geth/quarian problem-even the destruction of the geth or the total destruction of the quarians are solutions-bad ones but solutions just the same.

The fleet's readiness should be meaningless as far as what the Citadel (not the crucible) does.  The readiness of the crucible should be the only thing that matters as far as EMS since it's the power source.  If it's incomplete or underpowered then that might have disastrous effects, but otherwise the whole EMS and galactic readiness stuff has nothing to do with anything.  All of that should only matter as far as being able to protect the crucible.  But nowhere do we see the crucible even being threatened by reapers so it's never damaged.  And they certainly don't attack the citadel at the end.

The main plot of ME3 is not Shepard discovering the Crucible-Liara did that.  The main plot is the goal-the same goal through 3 games; destroying the reapers (once and for all), saving the galaxy.  The theme is strength through unity which is stated early on in ME3 and is carried over from ME1 and 2.  Shepard says the only chance they have is if they stand together.  Shepard has tried to make this happen ever since the visions from the beacon on Eden Prime.  Shepard did not say that they needed to find some big space weapon (battery) and then find out why the reapers are doing this so they can try and debate them about how wrong it all is.

Also it isn't a plot twist that the crucible needs the catalyst.  It is said pretty early on that the plans are incomplete and that they need something else to make it all work.  But even that is not true at all.  In the end it isn't the crucible (the power source that does nothing at all) that needs the catalyst, it is supposedly the catalyst that needs the crucible and Shepard.  This is important-the kid says he can't make the new solution happen.  He needs Shepard.  So, apparently he wants Shepard to make a choice.  Again, this makes the choices not credible.  He also needed the crucible, which makes the crucible not credible.  The citadel is a part of him and the citadel has the devices on it that will enact the choices-that makes the citadel not credible and thus the choices not credible.  So the whole of ME3 was sent getting everyone together to make something that is a complete unknown - origin, purpose, in order to use it to solve the kid's problem, to achieve his purpose.

Original goals of 3 stories - destroy reapers, save galaxy, unite all people
Goal of the series at the end of ME3 - achieve glow stick's purpose, avoid inevitable conflict between organics and synthetics.


Destroying the reapers is now only a theoretical possibility with abhorrent consequences that are in direct opposition to the main goal of the story.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 15 juillet 2012 - 06:19 .


#4615
MetioricTest

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Original goals of 3 stories - destroy reapers, save galaxy, unite all people
Goal of the series at the end of ME3 - achieve glow stick's purpose, avoid inevitable conflict between organics and synthetics.


Destroying the reapers is now only a theoretical possibility with abhorrent consequences that are in direct opposition to the main goal of the story.


And are also curious.

The Catalyst tells you he controls the Reapers... Then gives you option to control or kill the Reapers at great cost because they don't work as a solution anymore.

So why can't Shepard just tell The Catalyst exactly what he wants to do? Or tell the Catalyst to blow up all the Reapers without the negative consequences of destroy/control?

Either the Catalyst is lying to Shepard about the Machine or he does not really control the Reapers...Or his options don't make sense/

#4616
3DandBeyond

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MetioricTest wrote...


Original goals of 3 stories - destroy reapers, save galaxy, unite all people
Goal of the series at the end of ME3 - achieve glow stick's purpose, avoid inevitable conflict between organics and synthetics.


Destroying the reapers is now only a theoretical possibility with abhorrent consequences that are in direct opposition to the main goal of the story.


And are also curious.

The Catalyst tells you he controls the Reapers... Then gives you option to control or kill the Reapers at great cost because they don't work as a solution anymore.

So why can't Shepard just tell The Catalyst exactly what he wants to do? Or tell the Catalyst to blow up all the Reapers without the negative consequences of destroy/control?

Either the Catalyst is lying to Shepard about the Machine or he does not really control the Reapers...Or his options don't make sense/


That's actually one very important point-why have a discussion at all with the catalyst about his motives and the reaper's motives unless you can tell him the flaws that do exist-not just that the reapers are creating chaos and then listen to him say they have no choice and don't care about war?  After he says that the logical thing for Shepard to say would be that the kid is causing it even if they don't mean to and then to tell him that for order to return they need to be destroyed.  And a lot of other stuff.

#4617
Obadiah

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@3DandBeyond
Paragraph 1: Is this because of the collateral damage to Synthetics when firing the Crucible in the Destroy option? War has collateral damage. If you don't want to incur that, pick another option - that is what the options are there for. For this game, there is no perfect answer. Seemed to fit just fine to me.

Paragraph 2: Seems like the Crucible is the same thing to me in both original and EC endings. In the EC the Catalyst merely explains it more. The Crucible being a "weapon" and "power source" is not a contraction. The two functions are not mutually exclusive. To an advanced AI, the "crude" Crucible may seem like a power source. As the Catalyst also says, the design is adaptive.

The rationale for the Reapers attack is not contrary to the plot of Mass Effect 3. It was always going to be a strange explanation. Obviously, we don't want to die, so we were going to disagree with the solution.

Paragraph 3:
I don't know where that description came from. The Reapers were going to reap the Geth as well. The Catalyst is also, not wiping out all Organics, it thinks it is allowing them the flourish, by destroying the ones that it thinks will lead to the destruction of all creators.

Paragraph 4: When I wrote that we'd probably figure out how to fire the Crucible, I meant for the Destroy ending only - since that was the only option we were aware of before the Catalyst's conversation. The only reason we could know about the other Synthesis and Control options is the Catalyst.

Paragraph 5: Obviously the Reapers are not dumb or mindless, so coming to such a conclusion from the fire metaphor is incorrect. Since this is based on your interpretation, and I've already given an alternative interpretation - this seems like a "straw man" argument.

Paragraph 8: That seems more like the theme (and possible goal), not the plot.

Paragraph 9: I'm not sure what the problem being described here is. The Crucible got attached, and this change presented the Catalyst with new possible solutions it had not considered before. Based on the information it has collected (the "reap" solution will eventually fail), it cannot decide on a path forward, so it offers it to Shepard. Since we do not have a full understanding of the Catalyst's artificial intelligence, that seems plausible to me.

The Citadel/Catalyst cannot enact the three choices without the Crucible.

3DandBeyond wrote...
....
Original goals of 3 stories - destroy reapers, save galaxy, unite all people
Goal
of the series at the end of ME3 - achieve glow stick's purpose, avoid
inevitable conflict between organics and synthetics.


Destroying
the reapers is now only a theoretical possibility with abhorrent
consequences that are in direct opposition to the main goal of the
story.

There is no perfect ending to Mass Effect 3. This does not mean that Shepard is "achieving glow stick's purpose" by picking one of the options. It is possible for players to destroy the Reapers, there is just a heavy price to be payed. For this goal it seems appropriate.

Modifié par Obadiah, 16 juillet 2012 - 12:02 .


#4618
Urdnot Amenark

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I like his examination of the game's ending. There are many ways to interpret it, and I have to say that thematically, it certainly betrays everything these "artists" had been establishing in their narrative, especially the Synthesis ending, which I'm rather disturbed is considered to be the "good" ending. Now I will say that the key differences here in terms of Destroy and Control were not covered; depending on the Shepard you established, peace with the Quarians might not have been possible and Shepard might have decided to destroy the geth; this probably would be reasonable justification for this decision, although EDI would be a sad exception. As for Control, while he's correct that it's placement seems contradictory, in context we have to remind ourselves that this power was unavailable to TIM because he was already indoctrinated. As a result, he didn't have the moral fibre Shepard does to meaningfully make this decision. In this sense, Shepard seems to be the perfect figure to ascend to demigodhood and guide the Reapers. In essence, Shepard's literally becoming a legend we've established that will last for as long as time exists. I do find the Catalyst overall to be a rather sad and poorly developed aspect of the lore that also robs the Reapers of the Lovecraftian horror they once possessed.

Modifié par Urdnot Amenark, 16 juillet 2012 - 12:13 .


#4619
drayfish

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Even as I load this response in I notice that posters like GodSentinelomega and 3DandBeyond have already articulated many of the responses I would hope to make far more elegantly than I could – so forgive me for retracing their already artfully explored arguments. In particular:
 

3DandBeyond wrote:
 
This is a very cynical world view. It's not one I share. We are people with disparate thoughts. We are chaotic. We have conflict. But, through chaos we can grow and through conflict we can change. Through diversity and individuality and different thought, we can learn. This game says that's all wrong. Zoloft for all!

Lovely.
 
However, I am obnoxious, and love hearing myself type, so...
 
 
@ Obadiah:
 
Thank you for articulating your reaction to the ending of the game, it is helping me to see the way in which the narrative functions for people who do enjoy the ending and what it imposes upon the player in the final moments.  Although I remain personally unmoved, I see your perspective that your Shepard intended to use the Crucible no matter what, the conversation with Stanky just gave him/her further context for its operation.
 
For me, however, my Shepard's reaction to the Crucible and the nutty little AI dancing around inside it did fundamentally, and necessarily, alter her intent to use it. The plot twist you cited did more than simply reveal the machine's purpose, it exposed it as a Reaper tool, symbolic of their core principles and beliefs, and at that point there was no way that she was going to fall into line with her enemy's narrow vision of galactic order, particularly not given the sum-total of experiences that had led her to that point.
 
I understand that the ending is meant to construct an unwinnable scenario – the Reaper threat is so immense that one cannot defeat them 'conventionally', etc. That currently appears to be a catch-cry hurled against anyone who chooses to reject the ending and still feels maligned for being told that they consequentially 'lost'; but needing to succeed through 'unconventional' means does not, should not, mean that therefore anything in war is okay. That's why in the real world we have articles of war, the Geneva conventions, dictates on how human beings should behave; because as a species we consider some things more sacred than just survival. If we sacrifice what we are in order to keep sucking air, then what was the point?
 
The nihilistic endings of Mass Effect 3 – where you must finally give over your faith that there is another way –utterly contradicts the message that has been fuelling the entirety of the series. For the whole rest of the story, if you were prepared enough, if you tried hard enough, if you worked at it, you could find a way through the most 'impossible' of circumstances. But here, in the final seconds of the game's interactivity, we are explicitly told:
 
'Nope. You gotta sell your soul too. You have to work for the bad guys, and you have to do one of the three disgusting things that they consider an appropriate way to dominate the universe: kill, brainwash, or make super-husks. No fourth choices; that's insta-death, you cowardly bastard.'
 
This is a deceptive, and rather cruel bait-and-switch on the part of the writers. Suddenly it is as if the entire purpose of the game, with its breadcrumb trail of scenarios in which you can control the situation (or at least have the theoretical capacity to sway it your way) while keeping whatever morality you subscribe to legitimised by the text, was only a misleading prologue to the ending, where we find out once and for all that it was really only the most amoral Renegades who were welcome in the narrative in the first place.
 
Perhaps that's the disconnect at work here between those who like and those despise the endings. Some players appreciate that moral compromise, not seeing it as the total and irreversible perversion of character and universe that a player like myself does.
 
For example in your case, it appears you are saying that for those such as yourself who enjoyed the ending (and I must say, despite my own issues with it, I am extremely glad to hear that you did enjoy it) you appreciated it because it forced you into a moral compromise. This is the nature of war; what are you prepared to do if you have a gun to your head; what are you willing to sacrifice to survive?  (Please do correct me if I've misrepresented your thoughts there, it was not my intention).
 
For me, though, that brings with it all manner of ethical and philosophical horrors that up until that point in the game were not signalled appropriately at all. You are right – other character back stories and conversation can signify a willingness to do tragic things for the greater good (decisions made in the heat of battle, a kill or be killed, us or them) - but even of that is where they start, they do not remain that way.
 
Firstly, I would argue that none of those heroic characters ever performs an act of racial genocide, mass-mind control, or unwilling eugenic purge. Those kinds of beliefs and actions are left solely for the characters we are meant to challenge for their corrupted morals, the once-hero antagonists we must overcome because they have now utterly lost their way by compromising what they believed: Saren, the Illusive Man, Henry Lawson. We defeat them because at one time, long ago, they made exactly the same moral compromise we are being asked to perform, and they could not come back from it.
 
But secondly I would point out that at no point throughout the games does that kind of mentality have to be Shepard's. At every moment before the conclusion Shepard can find alternate paths through such situations if she is prepared and imaginative enough. Indeed, those very same people that you site as having at one time begrudgingly given up hope (Garrus, Hackett, etc.) – by the end of the game – are themselves looking at Shepard with wonder, now also capable of believing in a better way of doing things, because this heroic figure has shown them time and again that there are alternatives to surrender, that there are genuine alternatives to compromise. Hell, even Javik, the universe's Alpha-Troll, sends Shepard off with a speech about how, because of her, he now has faith, something that he was never able to muster in his own cycle.
 
Again, perhaps the game was just ultimately intended to deceive the player into believing this possibility too (just as these characters come to); perhaps the intent truly was to guide us toward the end thinking that as long as we were fighting for what was right we at least had hope, so that in the last moments the game could utterly strip that away by making you the Reaper's assistant. 
 
Sure, you can win, but you have to become what you most despise in order to do so.
 
But dear God, what a vile and unforgivable prank to play on your audience. You can be a hero, you can be a hero, you can be...  No. No, you're just another thug forcing you will upon the universe.
 
The only way to defeat evil is to become it.
 
Sleep well, little Stargazer.
 
Despite all of the evidence to the contrary throughout the fiction, we realise in these moments that this isn't a tenacity-will-triumph-over-adversity narrative, it's a the-psychopath-holds-you-hostage-until-you-become-like-him tale.  But that's not what I signed up for, and was ever led to believe until those final ten (now twenty) minutes of game.

Modifié par drayfish, 16 juillet 2012 - 02:11 .


#4620
3DandBeyond

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Urdnot Amenark wrote...

I like his examination of the game's ending. There are many ways to interpret it, and I have to say that thematically, it certainly betrays everything these "artists" had been establishing in their narrative, especially the Synthesis ending, which I'm rather disturbed is considered to be the "good" ending. Now I will say that the key differences here in terms of Destroy and Control were not covered; depending on the Shepard you established, peace with the Quarians might not have been possible and Shepard might have decided to destroy the geth; this probably would be reasonable justification for this decision, although EDI would be a sad exception. As for Control, while he's correct that it's placement seems contradictory, in context we have to remind ourselves that this power was unavailable to TIM because he was already indoctrinated. As a result, he didn't have the moral fibre Shepard does to meaningfully make this decision. In this sense, Shepard seems to be the perfect figure to ascend to demigodhood and guide the Reapers. In essence, Shepard's literally becoming a legend we've established that will last for as long as time exists. I do find the Catalyst overall to be a rather sad and poorly developed aspect of the lore that also robs the Reapers of the Lovecraftian horror they once possessed.


The problem is a Shepard that is "ascended" to godhood no longer would have morality.  This would be the intelligence but not the feelings or emotions of Shepard, a very important distinction since much of our morality comes not only from what we know to be right, but what we feel is right.

My Paragon Shepard says, "the woman I was knew she had to become something greater" while ominous music plays, not something My Shepard ever "knew".  In fact she never aspired to control of any kind and consistently told people with tough choices to make, that the decision was theirs.  Self-determination.

Another thing is that while a full Shepard might think there's some sense in controlling them, it's abhorrent to let them exist with people goo inside them.  "Hey Sam, how are the wife and kids?"  "I don't know Jake, their goo is in Bob the reaper over there."  No, not after seeing the piles of human bodies on the citadel.  No, not after seeing the pods on the Collector's base and the piles of bodies on the Collector's ship and the vats of "organic" people paste on it and not after watching Palaven and Earth and Thessia burn.  Not after seeing people as husks and all the rest.

Furthermore, Hackett admonishes Shepard against any such notion of control if when he asks if you are ready to attack TIM's base you say not yet and then go back and talk with him.  He orders Shepard to kill TIM and says that no good can come of trying to control the reapers.  I agree.  Shreaper is not Shepard and people really need to remember that-even a Shepard that would choose control is no real Shepard.  There's no knowledge as to who would be guiding who-the star kid's programming skipped some code for some unknown reason and now he's crazy.  What's to say this wouldn't happen again because no rational individual would want to control such things.  My opinion yes but really think about what it means and then really think about how people act today.

Consider this-a pit bull kills a child.  Do most people think the pit bull just needs to be re-trained and have new owners?  Do all people think this?  You know some people will want the dog destroyed.

Consider a serial killer.  He eats some of his victims.  Does anyone want him dead?  Jeffrey Dahmer home and the row of apartments in his building were torn down because of what happened there.  A McDonalds that was the sight of a horrid mass murder was torn down because of what happened there.  If one person sees the reapers and wants them gone, there will be problems.

But furthermore, in choosing control or synthesis you are choosing two sides of the same coin-one is the external overseers who will chart the course for all people.  The other is the internal augmentation that will create the course that all people will take.  Both in a sense are really forced upon people and neither was ever the goal people sacrificed for.

Imagine the surprise of the Turians and the Krogan when the reapers are stilll around.  Admiral Victus, "My son died so they would be destroyed.  We failed."  Wrex, "We made peace and put aside our differences and fought each other to help our enemies so the reapers would be destroyed.  We failed."  Imagine the surprise of Liara who promised the Asari many things and who was crushed at the fall of Thessia, "I became the Shadow Broker with one thing in mind, that no future generation would face a reaper threat.  We were to destroy the reapers.  We failed." 

Reapers that live and were once a danger could be a danger again.  It is the argument people use for killing a dog that has killed.

But any choice is still predicated on the credibility of the kid and even agrees with his vision of the inevitable.  This is actually totally counter to what even most humans feel about things.  We have hope because nothing is a certainty.  We deny that things are inevitable.  Your neighbor may feel that death is inevitable.  But, while it is probably true, it isn't totally true.  Because tomorrow a scientist might find the "immortality" gene.  It is because of the philosophy that is ingrained within a lot of us that change is a constant and that nothing is ever impossible and that nothing is ever totally fated to be, that only the most cynical would ever agree to make one of the kid's awful choices.  Anyone else would stand up and say he's wrong.  But in this "game" in doing that the writers don't want you to get the chance to show the kid and fight the reapers.  They want you to know that it's incredibly stupid not to choose.

#4621
Obadiah

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@drayfish
I understand that people don't like making difficult morally questionable decisions, especially on this scale. I think its a better story, but I understand the reaction. To me, interesting heroes have to make those decisions. Besides, there are already more than enough stories of heroes who don't have to make those.

The options do not mean anything in war is "ok" and certainly do make the endings nihilistic - if anything the options force the players to think long and hard about their values before ultimately making a choice (that includes refusal).

A couple of issues with your characterizations:
Control = mass-mind control: While the Reapers were "controlled" by the Catalyst, they were walking around saying they were "each a nation, independent, and without weakness." I'm pretty sure they're saying the same thing with the new Shepard AI Catalyst in control.

If I'm wrong, and the Shepard AI has assumed complete control and domination of the Reapers, then the Reapers are dead, and Shepard AI is now merely animating their bodies. This is not a problem for me because I was trying to destroy them anyway.

Destroy = genocide: It is to the Reapers and I have no problem with that. It is not to the other Synthetics - that is massive collateral damage, similar to firing a nuclear bomb. I'm not trying to minimized what it about to happen to Synthetics, but sometimes these kinds of decisions do have to be made.

>> "For the whole rest of the story, if you were prepared enough, if you tried hard enough, if you worked at it, you could find a way through the most 'impossible' of circumstances."

In the Arrival DLC Shepard blew up a Mass Relay and killed over 300,000 Batarians. If Shepard picked the "ruthless" origin, then he has already shown a willingness to make tough morally questionable decisions. On a smaller scale, Shepard has to sacrifice the Krogan Aralakh company in order to save the Rachni Queen. Then of course there was the Mass Effect 1 trailer where Shepard left the planet to burn.

There was foreshadowing for this final decison.

Modifié par Obadiah, 16 juillet 2012 - 08:37 .


#4622
GodSentinelOmega

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First at dreyfish

Thank, i' glad my ramblings made sense.

At obadiah

I'm sorry but i never saw any forshadowing that implied the endings tough morally compimising choices. Maybe you could bevruthless and unforgiving, but that doesn't mean that at the end you can't achieve victory without undercutting your ideals and in Destroy, taking massive casualties.

Games aren't real life, yes there are tough mora lly grey choices in games but i never saw the grey in the catalysts options.

What if B5s Sheridan had accepted the way of shadows or vorlons.
What would LOTR be if Gandalf had accepted sarumans assertion that none can defeat Sauron and comprimise is the way to survival?
What if Farscapes Crichton had taken the wormhole tech and given the weapons to the peacekeepers and Scorpius, allowing them to wipe out there enemies in the blink of an eye?

Jack Campbells Lost Fleet series is a prime example of how ideals can be slowly eroded in war, ostensivly for the greater good. It also says that if you meet the enemy atrocity for atrocity then you'll wake up in victory having become your foe.

Real war may make monsters of everyone, but if thats the way games will now portray conflict, even in a scifi setting the i don't like the trend.

And lastly 3danbeyond once again articulates views which i share, but with much better vocabulary and intelligence. As do Dreyfish, bluestorm and countless others.

So says GodSentinelOmega

#4623
3DandBeyond

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Yes, quite often there can be an erosion of principles, but it needs to be shown and not dropped on you all at once. And like it or not making a choice means believing the kid is right and it means Shepard must abandon the real cause of destroying the reapers. One choice using the buzz word destroy, but it is on the same poisonous tree. It isn't a natural offering, but one among 3 options given to fulfill the kid's flawed purpose. In order to choose it or the others Shepard must be totally morally compromised. And that is just as true of a renegade as it is a paragon.

War can be a series of compromises, but this game goes from sacrifice with Mordin and Legion and necessary attitude adjustment (Batarians see that survival is the issue) to a total abandonment of the moral compass of the hero of the game.

I won't attempt to go through the game and count the times Shepard spoke out against certain concepts or listened to those whose views s/he admired doing the same.

For Shepard to die in sacrifice for a good reason or even a partly good reason can make sense. But for Shepard to die in order to enforce the kid's flawed purpose and to not achieve the goal in any credible way is a complete loss and waste and suspension of Shepard's values.

In order to make a choice Shepard must:
Agree that conflict is always bad and will always exist between synthetics and organics.
Agree the same as far as chaos and that order must be achieved.
Agree that destroying the reapers is not necessarily the best thing to do.
Believe that TIM might have been right, but where he was indoctrinated and thus could not control the reapers, s/he (Shepard) is not indoctrinated and could.
Believe that people have little intrinsic value--external or internal forces must always "help" forge the future because people cannot do this on their own.
OR
Believe that destroying the reapers in inextricably linked to the destruction of all synthetic life-that this must be.
Believe that a choice is real-the kid is telling the truth about the choices. This relies on the Crucible being authentic and The Citadel working in conjunction with it to implement choices that at least may partly go against the survival of the kid. Shepard must totally ignore any and all suggestion that the kid (who is the only source of information as to what the Crucible/Citadel will do) might have reason to lie. This also requires that Shepard must totally ignore the location of the choices and all that the kid has done and even much that he has said because he contradicts others and even himself.

There's much more but what becomes apparent is that Shepard needs to not just make some reasoned compromise, Shepard must in fact become a totally different person with an agenda-not the destruction of the reapers, but agreement and capitulation with them and their "god".

This is a compromise beyond believability.

@Obadiah,
You say that under Shepard reapers might again be saying they are independent nations-well how did that work out last time? Someone was lying because they weren't.

Shepard as reaper god is not Shepard. People must really consider this. We are not merely our intelligence. We are the sum total of our experiences, our knowledge, and our feelings as they affect those things and as they "color" those things. For instance, I may intellectually know that telling my friend that her husband was looking at another woman is the right thing to do, but my feelings on doing so may change whether I do so or not. All I know at that point is that he did what he did, but my feelings might tell me I didn't totally understand the situation.

How great would it be if I caused my friend to leave her husband because some woman insulted him and I caught him staring at her not believing what she had just said? Knowledge is not only about our intelligence-it is also that intangible thing that comes from injecting emotion into certain situations and using our other brain. Shepard reaper god would be missing a large part of what we use to help us make decisions. Control would still be under the watchful eye of an unfeeling being. And no, Shepard would not be only animating their bodies. Sovereign and Harbinger had distinctly different personalities and different voices. The star kid says he is the combined intelligence of the reapers, not the other way around.

Destroy is major collateral damage? That's semantics and collateral damage is often used to mitigate the unintended loss of the lives of innocents. You let loose a bomb with the intent of destroying a military installation and also destroy 25 houses in the neighborhood. You as a gang member shoot at a rival in a crowd and kill a 2 year old child instead. You target civilian cities with nuclear bombs in order to shorten a war and minimize the loss of any further life. Where you stand, your perspective determines what you will call it. However, collateral damage is a term used to make it sound better. And neither of these cases as horrific as they are rise to the level of genocide.

Genocide is the destruction of or attempt to destroy a race of people. In the case of the reapers, genocide or not it is a must do. The reapers are a synthetic lifeform. Shepard's goal is not the destruction of all synthetic lifeforms. If it results in a form of genocide, sobeit-they forfeited the right to exist.

The genophage, even if it did not kill Krogans was a form of genocide in that it limited the births within a race.

Killing the geth and EDI who are there helping you fight is not some fluffy collateral damage-it is genocide-it is the destruction of a whole race of people and of EDI, not rabid evil (or mindless depending on which of the kid's versions you believe) lifeforms, but caring, feeling allies.

Using terms like collateral damage is like saying something is an unintended consequence. It exists to make horrific incidents sound "ok".

#4624
GodSentinelOmega

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I'm again going to use the lost fleet and farscape as examples of the making a hard and potentially grey choice. Both are now that i think about it very similar.

In the lost fleet the main hero black jack geary awakens to find a terrible war has been in progress for nearly a century, and all the soldiers he meets want nothing more than to slaughter all of the enemy. Be the civillian or soldier. In this future he finds that ftl has been superceded by the hypernet, which in essence is very like a mass relay. It also has the same supernova effect when destroyed. Many of the soldiers would willingly annihilate entire enemy star systems to win the war, but geary won't because it is abhorrent. Even though not doing so may cost more lives, he and those who trust him no that to do so would taint their souls forever. He makes the hard choice NOT to use the hypernet as a doomsday device,

In farscape Crichton is continually shown the awesome power of wormhole technology along with how easily it could consume the entire univers if unleashed. However he is pursued be Scorpius, the Peacekeepers and the Scarrans who all want this weapons technology. Like a new arms race.

Eventually, the Peacekeepers and Scarrans declare war, even though the Scarrans have the stronger armada and so it boils down to Crichton again. At the end he does unleash a wormhole weapon to display the full horrifying power it has. After consuming a planet and two fleets both sides back down and agree to peace and the abandonment of wormhole tech. Crichton then, because he IS the catalyst for the wormhole device nearly sacrifices his life to stop the ever growing wormhole. The thing here is that Crichton Knows what will happen but events him into a corner.

Both examples show how the hero makes the hard choice NOT to use the megaweapon that could instantly win because the price of victory is simply too high. The 'collateral damage' too abhorrent.

Even in mass effect itself we have instances of shepard denying the easy route because the price of that ease is just too much to pay.

I prefer stories where the hero can be better, where he shows everyone the best way through, not the fastest. Yes in the real world the morally grey choices can and will be made. But if fiction can tell us anything it that it doesn't always have to be like that. That our heroes can beat the impossible and live to tell about it.

Dark stories exist and can be great. But the are designed to be, like new Bsg. Mass effect was originally or seemed to be the more positive, hopeful space adventure where the hero faces the darkness and prevails as a true hero. Sadly the writers seemed to want to go with recent trend of having 'dark and gritty reality' where no-one is pure hero, where everyone is comprimised at some point. Like new BSG.

Trouble mass effect didn't start that way. It has moral choices, and many grey characters. But it wasn't ever a bleak tale. At least until the writers tried to graft a new undercurrent of fatalism into the ending via the medium of glowstick and his moral breakdown.

Oh yes and one other farscape example is crichton choosing to close the wormhole to earth and never return in order to spare them the horrors he's seen in his journeys. He could have left it open and simply uplifted humanity with the advanced tech of the new galaxy since his singular purpose up to that point had been to get home. But he made the harder and more heartbreaking choice to lock has homeworld out of his reach.

And doesn't his choice not to fasttrack humanities tech evolution sound like the opposite of the salarian/krogan fiasco?

The harder moral choice i find is not to do something despite the perceived short term benefits of said choice.

#4625
3DandBeyond

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Obadiah wrote...

In the Arrival DLC Shepard blew up a Mass Relay and killed over 300,000 Batarians. If Shepard picked the "ruthless" origin, then he has already shown a willingness to make tough morally questionable decisions. On a smaller scale, Shepard has to sacrifice the Krogan Aralakh company in order to save the Rachni Queen. Then of course there was the Mass Effect 1 trailer where Shepard left the planet to burn.

There was foreshadowing for this final decison.


Well, in the Arrival (which I actually did deplore for that reason), you have no choice and I do think this was intended to foreshadow what they then decided to retcon in the ME3 ending as to relays.  It was clearly meant to show what would happen if a relay is destroyed as is the "Desperate Measures" codex that is never addressed in the EC at all. 

The Arrival actually does clearly show that some choices are unavoidable.  But in ME3 it didn't need to be so.  We have the greatest military mind supposedly (Hackett) immediately saying they have no chance against the reapers, but there are codices that explore their vulnerabilities.  Some have been destroyed.

What the writers then do is set the game and goal up as impossible to win no matter what you do.  The Arrival was optional.  If you play ME3, the ending really is not (it is but not in the same way).  In order to finish the game, you must do the ending.  But the whole game sets up a truly unreasonable scenario.  The Arrival was reasonable.  You had not choice because time to do anything else is so limited and once the reapers are here they are here. 

In ME3, you are not allowed to explore any other options that are there, that have been shown to work even if they are limited in scope.  Making a moral decision is one thing, based upon the need.  As long as a decision is on a needs basis and is credible.  I saved the Rachni Queen because she was innocent and she had worth and she'd been used.  This was the use of my conscience since I had seen that consistently the Rachni had been abused-didn't they too have some right to live.  The protheans had used them (and they have ancestral memory but the queen is never asked if she knows about prothean times).  The Rachni had isolated themselves and a Salarian forced them out of hiding, thus setting up the need for Krogans to try and exterminate them.  The reapers had continually taken and used the Rachni who again had tried to isolate themselves.  My Shepard helped them because my Shepard saw they did at some point deserve a chance at redemption-that's a chance she kept giving everyone.  She needed the Krogans to help right a wrong, actually several wrongs.  It also totally dispels the notion that the need of any one person is subservient to the needs of the many (what control Shepard believes).

Yeah, trailers have absolutely nothing to do with what happens in the game-for reference go and look at the ME3 trailers.  Nothing in them happens in the game.  In fact, one Take Back Earth trailer shows a little girl (far better artwork went into her than the boy) picking a flower and a reaper descending.  It also shows some soldier that doesn't exist (just learned that is supposed to be Major Coats though in the trailer he looks way different from the one in the game) and a lot of awesome looking fighting to take Earth back.  None of that happens in the game.  We fight husks, destroy one reaper in London and an Hades Cannon (you know the invincible reapers) and that's about it for the fight to take back Earth.

Making difficult decisions that lead toward achieving the goal is far different from making a huge decision that only might lead to your goal.  All choices are predicated on belief and trust in a less than credible AI.  He is the only source for information as to what the choices do.  I don't care if he made them (which he could have), I don't care if the plans for the crucible were originally his or not (they could be), I don't care if he might have even created the choices that exist within the citadel (which he totally could have).  He is the only one who knows what they do and he is the only one explaining them and he has every reason to lie and has proven the ability to at least do duplicitous things.  He turned his creators (who gave him his noble purpose) into the first reaper.  The how and the why of this is never known, but since we don't know why and since this created his awful solution, we have every reason to believe this is one crazy AI.  A crazy possible liar who is now telling us what our choices are to solve HIS problem, not ours. 

And the only other option is again a no win, you are losers choice.  It makes sense because it is the only thing that says Shepard sees things clearly, but the writers decided to ignore what could have been the most epic of all events in gaming.  And they could have left the kid intact.  Refuse his choices, figure out he is crazy and lying and return to the goal.  At last a real fight and choices-if I do my best maybe the impossible is possible, again.  Nope.  Game over.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 16 juillet 2012 - 04:44 .