Aller au contenu

Photo

"All Were Thematically Revolting". My Lit Professor's take on the Endings. (UPDATED)


  • Veuillez vous connecter pour répondre
5087 réponses à ce sujet

#4876
drayfish

drayfish
  • Members
  • 1 211 messages

Ztrobos wrote...
 
I think the ending is great for just this reason. Pure paragons have had a very easy tim making the perfect choices the entier game through. Suddenly they face a choice where no alternative is obviusly superior to the other, and they melt! If thats not art, then I do'nt know art.

Firstly, I should say that in my reading, the Renegade Shepard would find this decision no easier. This is more than 'I'm shooting you because you are in my way', it's an ideological statement that tips over into social engineering. 
 
Secondly, I'm not sure I'm convinced that 'Art' is about telling at least half of your audience, in the final minutes of the experience, that by caring for others and trying not to be megalomaniacal they were doing it all wrong - and further that they should feel bad for thinking there might be another, less horrifying way to live.

Cynicism does not equal artistic; just as hope does not equal cheesy.



EDIT: I'm not sure if we're still doing these, but top-of-page music selection: You Am I's, 'Heavy Heart'. 



(...I should admit I have no way of threading this into my argument, I just like the song)

Modifié par drayfish, 29 juillet 2012 - 12:21 .


#4877
SHARXTREME

SHARXTREME
  • Members
  • 162 messages

drayfish wrote...

Ztrobos wrote...
 
I think the ending is great for just this reason. Pure paragons have had a very easy tim making the perfect choices the entier game through. Suddenly they face a choice where no alternative is obviusly superior to the other, and they melt! If thats not art, then I do'nt know art.

Firstly, I should say that in my reading, the Renegade Shepard would find this decision no easier. This is more than 'I'm shooting you because you are in my way', it's an ideological statement that tips over into social engineering. 
 
Secondly, I'm not sure I'm convinced that 'Art' is about telling at least half of your audience, in the final minutes of the experience, that by caring for others and trying not to be megalomaniacal they were doing it all wrong - and further that they should feel bad for thinking there might be another, less horrifying way to live.

Cynicism does not equal artistic; just as hope does not equal cheesy.


Yes, I agree. That is not art. 
And no, Ztrobos, Paragons didn't have it "easy". What about killing or rewriting geth heretics?
Arrival? Saving the Council or saving the fleet? Keeping or destroying Collector base? Sacrificing your shipmates?
Killing many humans in Cerberus uniforms without having a chance to talk them out of the insanity that TIM and Miranda's father filled their heads with?
Getting to the point to cure the genophage or help Geth and stiil get the quarian support and on top of that make peace between them was easy?
You're right, ending is not easy on paragons, it's logically and morally impossible.
But I argue, and many others as well, that not even Renegade can make ending choices and be happy about them.
Renegade don't even cooperate with his "friends" or allies, let alone with his worst enemy. To think that such Renegade Shepard would suddenly start to see authority in Nightmare-Kid and submit to his power is not logical to me. Care to explain why it would(be logical)? I didn't get the feeling that this was Star Wars plot at all, where you join the "dark side", it was far more complex then that.. 
 

#4878
3DandBeyond

3DandBeyond
  • Members
  • 7 579 messages

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

 

Well said. For me, the Extended Cut made this part of the game even worse.

The Conduit Run in a Nutshell

Hackett:Shepard you better watch out! Harbinger is coming.

*Harbinger arrives near the beam wearing his big 'Harbinger' Reapers' sports jersey*
*Shepard and friends are rushing down the beam along with soldiers*
*Harbinger is shooting like crazy*
*Harbinger takes out tank that nearly kills Shepard's squad*

.....Snipped.....

Soldiers: YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHH


Oh yeah!

Smacking the horse is priceless.

#4879
3DandBeyond

3DandBeyond
  • Members
  • 7 579 messages

SHARXTREME wrote...

drayfish wrote...

Ztrobos wrote...
 
I think the ending is great for just this reason. Pure paragons have had a very easy tim making the perfect choices the entier game through. Suddenly they face a choice where no alternative is obviusly superior to the other, and they melt! If thats not art, then I do'nt know art.

Firstly, I should say that in my reading, the Renegade Shepard would find this decision no easier. This is more than 'I'm shooting you because you are in my way', it's an ideological statement that tips over into social engineering. 
 
Secondly, I'm not sure I'm convinced that 'Art' is about telling at least half of your audience, in the final minutes of the experience, that by caring for others and trying not to be megalomaniacal they were doing it all wrong - and further that they should feel bad for thinking there might be another, less horrifying way to live.

Cynicism does not equal artistic; just as hope does not equal cheesy.


Yes, I agree. That is not art. 
And no, Ztrobos, Paragons didn't have it "easy". What about killing or rewriting geth heretics?
Arrival? Saving the Council or saving the fleet? Keeping or destroying Collector base? Sacrificing your shipmates?
Killing many humans in Cerberus uniforms without having a chance to talk them out of the insanity that TIM and Miranda's father filled their heads with?
Getting to the point to cure the genophage or help Geth and stiil get the quarian support and on top of that make peace between them was easy?
You're right, ending is not easy on paragons, it's logically and morally impossible.
But I argue, and many others as well, that not even Renegade can make ending choices and be happy about them.
Renegade don't even cooperate with his "friends" or allies, let alone with his worst enemy. To think that such Renegade Shepard would suddenly start to see authority in Nightmare-Kid and submit to his power is not logical to me. Care to explain why it would(be logical)? I didn't get the feeling that this was Star Wars plot at all, where you join the "dark side", it was far more complex then that.. 
 

All along I think paragons have it much harder because they always have to make tough decisions that they don't like making.  Renegades can be more ruthless in that choosing one over the other is a cold calculated necessity.  Paragons would stress over whatever decision.  For instance, I didn't like Dr. Heart in ME1, but didn't kill him and he dies anyway.  I still didn't like that.  I'd say there's no renegade or paragon choice at the end, but a renegade might not see it that way-I say a renegade would be selfish and not want to die, even thinking s/he might just go off and hide somewhere instead of all this.  And at least a renegade would like to know what happens to him/her in destroy.  A paragon though would never be able to choose and as I see it after the kid says, "I control the reapers" neither Shepard would want to listen to anything else.

#4880
Conniving_Eagle

Conniving_Eagle
  • Members
  • 6 013 messages

I remember hearing that first exchange: 'What's the plan?' / 'We fight or we die', and similarly thinking that Shepard might have gone a little mental. It's the first time I've ever agreed with anything the council says when that one guy responds: 'That's the plan?!'

I found myself thinking, 'Yeah, that's kind of vague, Shep. You might want to get a whiteboard and do some spit-balling or something, because – damn.'


I liked Shepard's plan in this video www.youtube.com/watch (those of you with a strictly mature sense of humor might not find it amusing).

Ah, but I disgress. Let me speak seriously for a moment. As SHARX said, moments like these can be overlooked.

Note: This thread has almost 200 pages worth of posts, if this has been iterated before, then I apologize, I haven't become involved in this paticular discussion until recently.

However, Extended Cut or not, the ending fails to stay narratively consistent with the rest of the story. The Extended Cut cannot fix this, I don't think anything short of rewriting the last hour of the game can fix this. Forget about thematic consistency for the sake if this post, I am going to focus solely on narrative.

When watching a story unfold, whether it be a novel, a film, or a video-game, the audience expects the story - the narrative, to stay true to itself. The narrative is supposed to follow its own established rules; the acknowledgement of past events and lore, these types of things. Minor plot holes/confusions/inconsistencies can be overlooked, and they can be forgiven if they serve a purpose to the story. For example, at the end of the Rannoch story-arc Legion must sacrafice himself for the rest of the Geth to achieve true intelligence. There is no explanation for this, why a "personality-dissemination" is necessary, no exploration of alternatives and so on. However, it is a dramatic and touching moment where the player gets to say good-bye to a great character, a friend. It is emotionally satisfying to see Legion and Tali part ways, to see the irrational walls of animosity between two unique races come crashing down as they begin a new future together, to see them co-exist, understand and accept each other.
Another example is Thane's death, which also felt contrived. Why did Shepard and his squad just stand around, gaping at the ninja-fight between Thane and Keanu Reeves? Why didn't they do anything about it? Thane had a gun, why didn't he shoot Keanu Reeves instead of charging at him (bringing a gun to a knife fight is just as foolish as vice-versa)? But again, while less meaningful than Legion's sacrafice, Thane's death is another opportunity to create drama and provoke emotion in the player. It worked on me, Thane was my favorite character from Mass Effect 2, I was already teary-eyed when he was on his death bed, I started silently sobbing when I found out he was praying for my Shepard (I'm getting choked up just writing about this). There are other wierd instances, like Thessia, or why the Reapers never attacked the Crucible. But the point is, all these little, occasional hiccups in the narrative aren't going to ruin the story for somebody.

But when we get to the end of Mass Effect 3, all these hiccups and contrivances begin to pile up. The quality of the narrative and the writing quickly begins to degrade, ultimately obscuring and tainting the image of the story. There are so many plot holes (and their ilk) at the end, that Mass Effect 3's narrative consistency is completely destroyed. How does The Illusive Man contact the Reapers? How did the Reapers move the Citadel? How did the Reapers move the Citadel through a the much smaller Mass Relay to get to Sol? If the Reapers knew the galaxy was going to use the Crucible against them and the Citadel was a key component, why did they move it to Earth instead of destroying it? How did the galaxy's top minds manage to build the crucible yet were unable to discern what it did and how? Why is the Catalyst in the form of another person Shepard knew, instead of something more similar to Vigil? How does the Conduit/Beam work? How does it transport people directly to the Citadel? Where did it come from, and why is it so poorly defended? Why is Shepard wearing different armor? Why does Shepard have a bullet wound around his kidney area when he was shot in the shoulder? How did TIM end up on the Citadel? How did Anderson get there? If he did, why did Harbinger leave immediately after wiping out the initial wave of soldiers, causing the beam to be suseptible to infiltration again? There were no other reapers there. Why does TIM look so strange (not like Saren at all) when and how did he get Reaper implants, and how can he control Shepard and Anderson? The list goes on. We finally have our encounter the Catalyst, and we can add all the flaws of the Catalyst and its logic, the cheapening of the Reapers' and Harbinger's persona, and all the questions raised from the endings (How did Shepard end up back on London in Destroy, what will happen to partly synthetic people like biotics and the quarians, how will VIs be affected, how the **** does synthesis work, etc) to our list of narrative inconsistencies. 

The ending is so contrived and non-sensical, there are innumerable things wrong with it. It's as if they hired a completely different group of writers with almost no foreknowledge of the Mass Effect trilogy or universe.

However, there is one good thing that has emerged out of this. The Indoctrination Theory. The Indoctrination Theory takes a proportionate amount of these plotholes and inconsistencies and uses them as an explanation for an alternate ending. Aside from Bioware wanting the fans to headcanon the ending that they failed to write, they are not denying the Indoctrination Theory because it gives a portion of the fanbase an excuse to justify these plotholes, and hold the writers and studio in a higher regard. If you believe in IT, I am glad for you, but in the end, the endings are ultimately the product of poor writing.

At this point, the words 'narrative consistency' have as much meaning to Mass Effect as the word 'integrity' does to EA. This is what I feel is the game's biggest mistake. I also believe that atleast some of the people who liked the Extended Cut are forcing themselves to like it because they have been told that it is all we are going to get. They have deluded themselves into liking it because they don't want to accept just how badly Mass Effect was ruined. I don't blame theme. I envy them, because I cannot do the same. Mass Effect 3's endings are an insult and betrayal to the fans. This isn't about being entitled, the endings are a '**** You' to anyone who has ever emotionally invested themselves in this franchise. Two selfish writers, two pseudo-intellectuals, have used the ending of an epic, unique video-game franchise as an excuse to cram their own philosophical bull**** down the fans' throats.

This is the sad truth that haunts me. This is the reason why there is an N7-shaped hole in my heart Posted Image

#4881
Conniving_Eagle

Conniving_Eagle
  • Members
  • 6 013 messages

drayfish wrote...


@ Conniving_Eagle:

Hilarious stuff.  A time-out for rough-housing.  Brilliant.


...And is it weird that I do now legitimately picture the Normandy as a horse?


Not at all. It is perfectly reasonable to draw conclusions between Commander Shepard and a western Eastwood-esque hero and the Normandy being their trusty steed Posted Image

#4882
MrFob

MrFob
  • Members
  • 5 413 messages

drayfish wrote...

Ztrobos wrote...
 
I think the ending is great for just this reason. Pure paragons have had a very easy tim making the perfect choices the entier game through. Suddenly they face a choice where no alternative is obviusly superior to the other, and they melt! If thats not art, then I do'nt know art.

Firstly, I should say that in my reading, the Renegade Shepard would find this decision no easier. This is more than 'I'm shooting you because you are in my way', it's an ideological statement that tips over into social engineering. 
 


That may be true but I think Ztrobos has a point. Making the final choice hard by not giving a perfect alternative was - in itself - not a bad idea IMO. You can argue that it doesn't fit with the convetion of an epic trilogy not to provide a happy ending and I think it would be strange to have a tragic one but an ambigous one where the hero still accomplishes his/her task with a little hook attached can work as far as I am concerned. The problem with the choices as they are in ME3 lie in their implementation.
- The crucible is ultimately a tool of and for the antagonist. He presents the choices to you and by choosing, while not giving up, you don't really make a stand either.
- If I have to sacrifice the geth because there is no other viable choice, than at least, don't make me sacrifice them to the star child like a lam would be sacrificed to a tyrannic god.
- If I have a refusal endng, at least imply that my refusal meant something, that my refusal opened the door for another cycle to defy the reapers and the crucible, don't make it meaningless by having my "mistake" "corrected" by the next cycle. (this could be fixed with the change of one single sentence in the refusal ending).
- If you give me hard imperfect choices, don't show me perfect concequences for all of them after that. That just sends the wrong message and makes the weight of the decisions meaningless. (this problem was introduced with the EC).

So IMO, hard choices work, sacrifices work, just not the way BW has done it. The  ME3 ending mod tries to correct this problem. I realize people ignored my link a couple of pages back and I agree that it's sort of off topic for this thread but given the amount of insight this thread offers, I'd be really interested to hear your stance on that (lonk in my signature).

#4883
3DandBeyond

3DandBeyond
  • Members
  • 7 579 messages

MrFob wrote...


That may be true but I think Ztrobos has a point. Making the final choice hard by not giving a perfect alternative was - in itself - not a bad idea IMO. You can argue that it doesn't fit with the convetion of an epic trilogy not to provide a happy ending and I think it would be strange to have a tragic one but an ambigous one where the hero still accomplishes his/her task with a little hook attached can work as far as I am concerned. The problem with the choices as they are in ME3 lie in their implementation.
- The crucible is ultimately a tool of and for the antagonist. He presents the choices to you and by choosing, while not giving up, you don't really make a stand either.
- If I have to sacrifice the geth because there is no other viable choice, than at least, don't make me sacrifice them to the star child like a lam would be sacrificed to a tyrannic god.
- If I have a refusal endng, at least imply that my refusal meant something, that my refusal opened the door for another cycle to defy the reapers and the crucible, don't make it meaningless by having my "mistake" "corrected" by the next cycle. (this could be fixed with the change of one single sentence in the refusal ending).
- If you give me hard imperfect choices, don't show me perfect concequences for all of them after that. That just sends the wrong message and makes the weight of the decisions meaningless. (this problem was introduced with the EC).

So IMO, hard choices work, sacrifices work, just not the way BW has done it. The  ME3 ending mod tries to correct this problem. I realize people ignored my link a couple of pages back and I agree that it's sort of off topic for this thread but given the amount of insight this thread offers, I'd be really interested to hear your stance on that (lonk in my signature).


I'd further like to add to your thinking on the crucible and the choices being the kid's.  They cannot have come from anyone else.  Many have started to say they are a failsafe created by his creators, but they can't be.  Whoever created them had to know about the kid and the reapers.  His creators didn't know about the reapers because they became the first one-so they couldn't have made them before becoming a reaper.  If his creators made them after becoming a reaper, they are from the kid, because he controls them.  The choices also were made as the result of change to the kid made by the crucible.  So the crucible was made in part to change him and make the choices appear (or whatever). 

That means whoever knew how to make the crucible or alter had to know about the kid-the only ones who do are the reapers/the kid and Shepard.   No one ever made it this far before, so no one ever saw the kid before.  But even if someone had seen the kid they would have to have knowledge of what he is in order to make some device that would change him.  I don't think they magically just happened upon the idea for the crucible and it magically would alter the kid's programming.  Whoever made it had to know what it was for.  The only one that could know and that would be able to create something that would target the reapers is the kid.

So I think it is obvious (though this is all rather a big mess and I hope I made sense of it) the choices are there to help the kid and no one else.

#4884
Ztrobos

Ztrobos
  • Members
  • 128 messages

SHARXTREME wrote...

drayfish wrote...

Ztrobos wrote...
 
I think the ending is great for just this reason. Pure paragons have had a very easy tim making the perfect choices the entier game through. Suddenly they face a choice where no alternative is obviusly superior to the other, and they melt! If thats not art, then I do'nt know art.

Firstly, I should say that in my reading, the Renegade Shepard would find this decision no easier. This is more than 'I'm shooting you because you are in my way', it's an ideological statement that tips over into social engineering. 
 
Secondly, I'm not sure I'm convinced that 'Art' is about telling at least half of your audience, in the final minutes of the experience, that by caring for others and trying not to be megalomaniacal they were doing it all wrong - and further that they should feel bad for thinking there might be another, less horrifying way to live.

Cynicism does not equal artistic; just as hope does not equal cheesy.


Yes, I agree. That is not art. 
And no, Ztrobos, Paragons didn't have it "easy". What about killing or rewriting geth heretics?
Arrival? Saving the Council or saving the fleet? Keeping or destroying Collector base? Sacrificing your shipmates?
Killing many humans in Cerberus uniforms without having a chance to talk them out of the insanity that TIM and Miranda's father filled their heads with?
Getting to the point to cure the genophage or help Geth and stiil get the quarian support and on top of that make peace between them was easy?
You're right, ending is not easy on paragons, it's logically and morally impossible.
But I argue, and many others as well, that not even Renegade can make ending choices and be happy about them.
Renegade don't even cooperate with his "friends" or allies, let alone with his worst enemy. To think that such Renegade Shepard would suddenly start to see authority in Nightmare-Kid and submit to his power is not logical to me. Care to explain why it would(be logical)? I didn't get the feeling that this was Star Wars plot at all, where you join the "dark side", it was far more complex then that.. 
 


I understand that you havea hard time being a Spectre if you do'nt consider killing an acceptable tool. Hard to be a soldier too I suppose. By the Geths own reasoning, it is right to destroy the heretics: they used their free will, their choice carried consequences. One of them where the possibility of being destroyd be the organics they chose to attack.



U
Holding back your own fleet while your allies die is plain traitous..
Geth/quarian peace is difficult, but still the obvius paragons goal.

Ending was the first time I had to pause for a minute to think. D

Modifié par Ztrobos, 29 juillet 2012 - 06:57 .


#4885
MrFob

MrFob
  • Members
  • 5 413 messages

3DandBeyond wrote...
I'd further like to add to your thinking on the crucible and the choices being the kid's.  They cannot have come from anyone else.  Many have started to say they are a failsafe created by his creators, but they can't be.  Whoever created them had to know about the kid and the reapers.  His creators didn't know about the reapers because they became the first one-so they couldn't have made them before becoming a reaper.  If his creators made them after becoming a reaper, they are from the kid, because he controls them.  The choices also were made as the result of change to the kid made by the crucible.  So the crucible was made in part to change him and make the choices appear (or whatever). 

That means whoever knew how to make the crucible or alter had to know about the kid-the only ones who do are the reapers/the kid and Shepard.   No one ever made it this far before, so no one ever saw the kid before.  But even if someone had seen the kid they would have to have knowledge of what he is in order to make some device that would change him.  I don't think they magically just happened upon the idea for the crucible and it magically would alter the kid's programming.  Whoever made it had to know what it was for.  The only one that could know and that would be able to create something that would target the reapers is the kid.

So I think it is obvious (though this is all rather a big mess and I hope I made sense of it) the choices are there to help the kid and no one else.


The way the endings are playing out in the EC, I agree. This again leads to the problem why the kid would offer you the choice to destroy it when it is obvious from the conversation that it still believes in it's purpose.
It just doesn't make sense whatsoever, in addition to be narratively revolting.

#4886
3DandBeyond

3DandBeyond
  • Members
  • 7 579 messages

MrFob wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...
I'd further like to add to your thinking on the crucible and the choices being the kid's.  They cannot have come from anyone else.  Many have started to say they are a failsafe created by his creators, but they can't be.  Whoever created them had to know about the kid and the reapers.  His creators didn't know about the reapers because they became the first one-so they couldn't have made them before becoming a reaper.  If his creators made them after becoming a reaper, they are from the kid, because he controls them.  The choices also were made as the result of change to the kid made by the crucible.  So the crucible was made in part to change him and make the choices appear (or whatever). 

That means whoever knew how to make the crucible or alter had to know about the kid-the only ones who do are the reapers/the kid and Shepard.   No one ever made it this far before, so no one ever saw the kid before.  But even if someone had seen the kid they would have to have knowledge of what he is in order to make some device that would change him.  I don't think they magically just happened upon the idea for the crucible and it magically would alter the kid's programming.  Whoever made it had to know what it was for.  The only one that could know and that would be able to create something that would target the reapers is the kid.

So I think it is obvious (though this is all rather a big mess and I hope I made sense of it) the choices are there to help the kid and no one else.


The way the endings are playing out in the EC, I agree. This again leads to the problem why the kid would offer you the choice to destroy it when it is obvious from the conversation that it still believes in it's purpose.
It just doesn't make sense whatsoever, in addition to be narratively revolting.


I agree partly.  I think all choices are not permanent-even the reapers are not.  I liken what is happening to the kid dissembling.  I'd wish he was in the process of destruction to himself but I digress.  It's like a thought I had some time ago of a mind falling apart.  His idea of the reapers has been working but it no longer is.  He comes up with 3 split solutions.  One is best, one not so much and the other even worse.  But they all temporarily do what he sees needs to be done.  He may even see himself as somewhat impervious to final destruction.  I'd have to look again but I don't ever think he even says destroy will destroy him-I could be wrong.  But even so it should destroy him, so it doesn't make sense that he would create anything that would remove him.  But then not much about it makes sense as you say.

#4887
Tallestra

Tallestra
  • Members
  • 109 messages
One of the reason I always loved BW games is how much you can interpret main character, using the tools that game gives you and some little inner role-playing of your own.

So, I don't really agree with some interpretations of renegade Shepard here. I always thought that renegade Shepard is not someone who's selfish and concerned only about himself. If I'm not mistaken, in the beginning of the ME when discussing their choice of the candidate the characterize renegade as someone who will accomplish the mission never matter what. So, for renegade is Shepard that firmly believes that goal justify the means, who doesn't concerned about collateral damage, who will always choose faster and more guaranteed way. She will not release Rachni because they are dangerous, he will sabotage cure to ensure support of both Krogans and Salarians. And in the end Shepard will easily sacrifice synthetics to ensure destruction of the reapers, or maybe will choose control, because reapers will be ultimate tool to ensure that any required goal will be accomplished. Renegade will always believe that many outweigh the few, even if this few will include her. If renegade was really that selfish and only concerned for herself, he would never continue fighting, preferring to hide somewhere,

#4888
SHARXTREME

SHARXTREME
  • Members
  • 162 messages

Tallestra wrote...

One of the reason I always loved BW games is how much you can interpret main character, using the tools that game gives you and some little inner role-playing of your own.

So, I don't really agree with some interpretations of renegade Shepard here. I always thought that renegade Shepard is not someone who's selfish and concerned only about himself. If I'm not mistaken, in the beginning of the ME when discussing their choice of the candidate the characterize renegade as someone who will accomplish the mission never matter what. So, for renegade is Shepard that firmly believes that goal justify the means, who doesn't concerned about collateral damage, who will always choose faster and more guaranteed way. She will not release Rachni because they are dangerous, he will sabotage cure to ensure support of both Krogans and Salarians. And in the end Shepard will easily sacrifice synthetics to ensure destruction of the reapers, or maybe will choose control, because reapers will be ultimate tool to ensure that any required goal will be accomplished. Renegade will always believe that many outweigh the few, even if this few will include her. If renegade was really that selfish and only concerned for herself, he would never continue fighting, preferring to hide somewhere,


I agree for most part about Renegade. Renegade will, simply said, try NOT to play by the standard rules(of the society, game and Bioware "game").
What I don't agree on is again strange(wrong) interpretation of: 
"The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one".
That simply cannot be(is not) used in opposite way, as a decision for everybody else on massive scale: 
-It is used when some individual can make a self-sacrifice for good of his friends, group, ship mates, culture, species, alliance, galaxy, universe etc.  
- or as Captain sacrificing his ship for the fleet
- or in DE plot as humans willingly sacrifice themselves for the good of everybody else(that plot doesn't exist, but I imagine it could end in such a way)
 It is Not used as sacrifice of somebody else, in particular those that are not involved.
That is ritualistic sacrifice and/or mass murder, like i have said before.

I have said in few posts that in my view, Renegade can be seen as one that is driven by fear and opportunity, that will use an easy way out for him/or just oppose standards/conventions(again not going to extremes).
Paragon is on the other hand that one that will operate on hope and perseverance/respecting(not making) some broader standards.
Difference is(if not going to extremes) in short-long term, tactics-strategy, attack-defense.
What they can have in common(regarding their personal beliefs only, and not their methods, that is for Renegade only) is what we in Croatia call a "line(way) of lesser resistance" *

You can also see this as a game between Bioware and you, where they give you many rewards for playing it "right".
Some of you seem to think that game is when you try to play full Paragon and BW later show you that you played it wrong, you had it "easy". But, that is not what happened here. Ending is simply tacked on, like a headlight on a skateboard.  


* I don't know if that can be a good translation, maybe there is a term for it. But it describes somebody that will try to avoid conflict with life and/or society regardless of his personal beliefs or wishes. 

Modifié par SHARXTREME, 29 juillet 2012 - 06:15 .


#4889
Conniving_Eagle

Conniving_Eagle
  • Members
  • 6 013 messages
Can I ask what part of Croatia you're from?

#4890
SHARXTREME

SHARXTREME
  • Members
  • 162 messages

MrFob wrote...
MEEM - The first Mass Effect 3 Ending Mod


This is great, this is logical and it is a hard decision. True SF. Well done, I really, really like it

Especially your tight composition of many seemingly not related different factors logically.
The very basis of interstellar transportation is the reason of widespreading that creatures influence on everything. It's like that's their means of reproduction and evolution, forming some kind of underlying mega-matrix. That is basically a premise that universe itself is/can become a (intelligent) life-form.
Underlying logic is sound and frightening at the same time. There you can explore/question different levels of nature of individuality and life itself. What is life, and what is NOT life?
If that creatures would reach unstoppable levels, what would our part be. Would we be merely a gears in the Universe Machine? Can such sub-dimensional genetic homogeneity even survive long term?
What happens when all Universe is transformed? etc

All decisions are a risk, BUT what I personally miss from original ending and your mod is this closed setting. I miss the counterpoints/thoughts presented by your shipmates, somebody in the fleet, Reapers, anybody really, so that decision is not made under time or setting pressure.
You see, I believe that my Shepard(or anybody) is not qualified to deal with the problem unilaterally

I was entertaining the thought of different scenarios(not for ME) involving some sort of sub-dimensional or xeno-dimensional creatures(not in this way). Your take is surprisingly fitting for ME, but I find it is a shame to put such scenario at the very end of some story, and not continue, build upon it, explore more(not solve more).
EDIT: 
It seems to me that former Control option(now interfacing with the Reapers) is only option that would involve only Shepard. A dialogue with the Reapers. It can be acceptable for Shepard. Others are too risky unilaterally. 

EDIT2: The most dramatic moment and is also perfectly delivered is the question from Prothean VI:
- "The Question is... If you believe the Problem?"
Real good stuff.
I commend this Decatalystifying of ending, especially in such logical way.(although some question remain) but that's beside the point and not fixable by just modding the ending.


@ Conniving_Eagle
From Dalmatia 

Modifié par SHARXTREME, 29 juillet 2012 - 06:18 .


#4891
robertthebard

robertthebard
  • Members
  • 6 108 messages

3DandBeyond wrote...

SHARXTREME wrote...

drayfish wrote...

Ztrobos wrote...
 
I think the ending is great for just this reason. Pure paragons have had a very easy tim making the perfect choices the entier game through. Suddenly they face a choice where no alternative is obviusly superior to the other, and they melt! If thats not art, then I do'nt know art.

Firstly, I should say that in my reading, the Renegade Shepard would find this decision no easier. This is more than 'I'm shooting you because you are in my way', it's an ideological statement that tips over into social engineering. 
 
Secondly, I'm not sure I'm convinced that 'Art' is about telling at least half of your audience, in the final minutes of the experience, that by caring for others and trying not to be megalomaniacal they were doing it all wrong - and further that they should feel bad for thinking there might be another, less horrifying way to live.

Cynicism does not equal artistic; just as hope does not equal cheesy.


Yes, I agree. That is not art. 
And no, Ztrobos, Paragons didn't have it "easy". What about killing or rewriting geth heretics?
Arrival? Saving the Council or saving the fleet? Keeping or destroying Collector base? Sacrificing your shipmates?
Killing many humans in Cerberus uniforms without having a chance to talk them out of the insanity that TIM and Miranda's father filled their heads with?
Getting to the point to cure the genophage or help Geth and stiil get the quarian support and on top of that make peace between them was easy?
You're right, ending is not easy on paragons, it's logically and morally impossible.
But I argue, and many others as well, that not even Renegade can make ending choices and be happy about them.
Renegade don't even cooperate with his "friends" or allies, let alone with his worst enemy. To think that such Renegade Shepard would suddenly start to see authority in Nightmare-Kid and submit to his power is not logical to me. Care to explain why it would(be logical)? I didn't get the feeling that this was Star Wars plot at all, where you join the "dark side", it was far more complex then that.. 
 

All along I think paragons have it much harder because they always have to make tough decisions that they don't like making.  Renegades can be more ruthless in that choosing one over the other is a cold calculated necessity.  Paragons would stress over whatever decision.  For instance, I didn't like Dr. Heart in ME1, but didn't kill him and he dies anyway.  I still didn't like that.  I'd say there's no renegade or paragon choice at the end, but a renegade might not see it that way-I say a renegade would be selfish and not want to die, even thinking s/he might just go off and hide somewhere instead of all this.  And at least a renegade would like to know what happens to him/her in destroy.  A paragon though would never be able to choose and as I see it after the kid says, "I control the reapers" neither Shepard would want to listen to anything else.

Should be an interrupt to shoot him in the face then.

Regarding Renegade, from a renegade type of player:  I'm not renegade because I'm selfish.  I'm renegade because I'm going to do what I think is best, and I don't care what other people think.  This is especially true with the Ruthless Shepard.  Whatever it takes to get the job done.  "I sent plenty of good soldiers to their death to clear that bunker, but it had to be done".  For this Shepard, Refusal is not an option, as that equates to Surrender, and that's bad.  From my perspective, Destroy is the way to go, assuming I can get myself over surviving getting shot by a lazer that destroys frigates outright, anyway.  Destroy gets the job done, even if there are costs.  The important part of that statement is:  Gets the job done.  This is why everybody in the galaxy with a choice put me in charge, because, as Anderson states at the beginning of ME 3:  You have faced them, and you can get the job done.  Very rough paraphrase.  The sole reason I had to care about the Geth, if I can justify caring at all, is already dead.  EDI is a soldier on my ship, and knows the costs can be high.

I'm sorry that scope throws some people when "needs of the many" comes up, but that's not a problem inherent with the philosophy in as much as being able to internalize the fact that any time you have a choice between losing x number of people compared to losing y number, and y is greater, losing x is always better.  In a perfect world, neither choice would be needed, but in a perfect world, we wouldn't be at war with a race of beings intent on harvesting us.  I actually find it a rather fitting example since really, the only needs being catered to are, at a very basic level, the one.  After all, choosing to allow the game to continue past the beam in London was done to satisfy, or to, more accurately, attempt to satisfy the player.  The characters, synthetic or organic, are going into this knowing they can lose, and might very well lose, including Shepard.  The only one going in with an expectation of winning is the player.

#4892
Conniving_Eagle

Conniving_Eagle
  • Members
  • 6 013 messages

SHARXTREME wrote...
@ Conniving_Eagle
From Dalmatia 


I've only been Zagreb and Cres (one of the dalmation islands), very beuatiful country. I'm from Slovenija, btw.

#4893
3DandBeyond

3DandBeyond
  • Members
  • 7 579 messages
Don't get me wrong. I don't think a renegade only acts out of selfishness but I do think if the choice came down to him/her and everyone else well that is where the Ruthless one comes in. That means literally that the person has no compassion or concern for others. A totally ruthless renegade (ruthless is one of the types you can choose at the beginning) is doing all this for self-preservation and yes for others.

Not to get too down and dirty, but a ruthless person likes physical interaction with others just as much as the next person in general and most often isn't going to want to be alone.

A ruthless person isn't stupid. If the galaxy is destroyed, then it's going to impact him/her. If the galaxy is in a mess it will do that, too. The needs of the many are not as important as the needs of the one. This type of person is manipulative because it is a means to an end-it helps him/her. This Shepard needs others and realizes that-s/he can't live on if others don't help.

Now you could look at the choices and say clearly a ruthless person could pick one-destroy. Well, not without asking a few questions s/he couldn't. The kid leaves open the context of what will happen to Shepard. And the other 2 require Shepard to die. The only renegade option is to go for the quickest way out-reject/refuse if you aren't meta-gaming. But since I really hate what they are saying with how that plays out I reject reject.

I think both renegade and paragon would have a real problem finding a choice that fits. A renegade can't find a reason to choose one for selfish reasons and a paragon can't find a reason to choose one for altruistic reasons.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 29 juillet 2012 - 07:20 .


#4894
Obadiah

Obadiah
  • Members
  • 5 732 messages
@MrFob
With respect to why the Catalyst would offer Destroy: the way I see it the Catalyst doesn't believe living or existence is important. Its only goal is to solve the problem it was given. Since at the end of Mass Effect 3 it sees itself as inevitably doomed to failure, it will accept annihilation.

@Tallestra
Agreed. Renegade Shepard is not inherently evil or sadistic, but is simply willing to get the job done outside the rules. Clearly Renegade Shepard is on a bit of a slippery slope, but that is to be expected with stakes this high.

Modifié par Obadiah, 29 juillet 2012 - 07:50 .


#4895
robertthebard

robertthebard
  • Members
  • 6 108 messages

3DandBeyond wrote...

Don't get me wrong. I don't think a renegade only acts out of selfishness but I do think if the choice came down to him/her and everyone else well that is where the Ruthless one comes in. That means literally that the person has no compassion or concern for others. A totally ruthless renegade (ruthless is one of the types you can choose at the beginning) is doing all this for self-preservation and yes for others.

Not to get too down and dirty, but a ruthless person likes physical interaction with others just as much as the next person in general and most often isn't going to want to be alone.

A ruthless person isn't stupid. If the galaxy is destroyed, then it's going to impact him/her. If the galaxy is in a mess it will do that, too. The needs of the many are not as important as the needs of the one. This type of person is manipulative because it is a means to an end-it helps him/her. This Shepard needs others and realizes that-s/he can't live on if others don't help.

Now you could look at the choices and say clearly a ruthless person could pick one-destroy. Well, not without asking a few questions s/he couldn't. The kid leaves open the context of what will happen to Shepard. And the other 2 require Shepard to die. The only renegade option is to go for the quickest way out-reject/refuse if you aren't meta-gaming. But since I really hate what they are saying with how that plays out I reject reject.

I think both renegade and paragon would have a real problem finding a choice that fits. A renegade can't find a reason to choose one for selfish reasons and a paragon can't find a reason to choose one for altruistic reasons.

Other than Destroy, they are all grey, well, maybe not refusal, for that truly self righteous Shepard.  My take on the Ruthless Renegade Shepard was, quite simply, that ever since what is technically the end of ME 1, the Reapers have taken a personal interest in me, and I'm more than willing to make 'em aware of what kind of a mistake that is.  This is the first of two Shepards that actually finished the game, and the second was because I was tired of rehashing the same one for replays, and only did that one some time last week.

But my Ruthless Shepard was in it for the glory, and to show those Reapers what it meant to get on my bad side.  In 1, Saren all but calls me out at the Council hearing, and so I didn't have any trouble figuring out why I'd want to stop him, although I did like having help, so I tried to keep my squad alive.  No real suicide missions in 1, so that wasn't a big problem.  In 2, I was really mad, they'd managed to kill me, and here I was sipping mojitos and kicking it on my private beach, since I'm still too much of a *** for people to hang out with, despite all my "good deeds" in 1, when Cerberus has the gall to bring me back to life.  So now I'm mad at the Reapers for killing me, and Cerberus for bringing me back.  I played "Make Me Happy" with my squad, because I knew I was going to need everyone to be on their toes, and didn't romance anyone, because romances are for sissies.  At the end of it all, when TIM was practically begging me to save the base, I laughed as I set the charges.

Then we get to 3.  The Alliance was holding me prisoner for suspected terrorism, well, that's the cover story, they're really keeping me where they can keep tabs on me in case I was right all along, and what do ya' know, I was.  When the Alliance Councilor asks me "That's our plan", I told him, all in my head of course, since there was no option, that no, my plan had been to spend the last 2 1/2 years preparing for this, but everybody was too busy patting themselves on the back for stopping Sovereign to believe there were more like it any where else.  I reminded them that I had been telling them they were coming, and now they get to see for themselves just what it is we're up against, and how unprepared we really are.

I cured the genophage, and told the Salarian Dalatrass that they'd brought it on themselves, and wished them luck when the Reapers show up.  I also told Wrex, in no uncertain terms, that if they tried aggressive expansion into the galaxy again, I'd come back from the dead, again, if I had to to kick his butt all over the galaxy.  I think he believed me.  I did allow myself a little fling, though, after all, I had been dead, and Spec. Traynor was practically begging for it anyway, (actually, I got it on accident, not sure how, but that's another story).  Garrus wouldn't spar with me, because he didn't want to get added to the list of people I'd knocked on their ass.  Anyway, this will give you the gist of how I went through 3, and when SC started on his rant, I quit asking, and shot the tubes.  Yeah, I died, but I took them suckers with me.  (guess my ems wasn't high enough for the breathe scene, and that's all good).  So it's pretty easy to be Ruthless Renegade and take Destroy.  I saw myself shooting him in the face too, but I didn't do it.  Not because I thought it would be out of character for me, I mean, come on, I punched that crazy doctor on Eden Prime in 1, and kind of set the tone from there, but because I wanted to kill them (edited for television).

#4896
SHARXTREME

SHARXTREME
  • Members
  • 162 messages
@ robertthebard

I didn't agree with your tactics before or generally, but this was good. Brutal and good.
You showed perfectly that somebody can find satisfaction just by attitude alone in some situation and by being completely "in character" on top of that without real concerns for the reality of the situation. Very nice.
Not that I would send your ass to save the Universe, but then again you probably wouldn't want to take orders from me anyway :) Nice Renegade act.

What I mean is, that is really nice to read completely different take on this story, based solely on personal attitude. James Vega could have been perfect with your attitude.

Sadly, I couldn't switch-off my senses that much and enjoy or entertain myself with the story as much.
Other than that, I still cannot swallow that description of people who chose to Refuse as "self-righteous". You see, most of them don't refuse to actually not save what can be saved given the opportunity, but rather to send feedback to Bioware.
I chose refuse in EC because I reject such ending in which Bioware is trying to control my Shepard.

It was so nice to see that mask dropping from catalyst boy when he said in scaarrry voice: "So be it" to see some arrogant writer's real nature and laugh at it.

Ending is constructed in such way that there seems to be only a thin line between your Renegade that complied and my Paragon that rejected, and Bioware crossed even that line and said: "You are both the same. Weak. Manipulated to switch roles. And only way to win is to delude yourself, one way or the other".

Yeah, I know, before your basic point was that you cannot judge Shepard's decisions because you lack similar experience. (I would say perspective) and that is exactly the point.
I have lost all perspective/connection with that ****** Shepard that runs bare-handed on foot against a giant f..king space meat-grill and later is found chatting half.dead with an enemy of everything.
There was a line there crossed by catalyst and Bw where I just needed to shoot him in the face and renegade-out against his rules and symbolism.

#4897
robertthebard

robertthebard
  • Members
  • 6 108 messages

SHARXTREME wrote...

@ robertthebard

I didn't agree with your tactics before or generally, but this was good. Brutal and good.
You showed perfectly that somebody can find satisfaction just by attitude alone in some situation and by being completely "in character" on top of that without real concerns for the reality of the situation. Very nice.
Not that I would send your ass to save the Universe, but then again you probably wouldn't want to take orders from me anyway :) Nice Renegade act.

What I mean is, that is really nice to read completely different take on this story, based solely on personal attitude. James Vega could have been perfect with your attitude.

Sadly, I couldn't switch-off my senses that much and enjoy or entertain myself with the story as much.
Other than that, I still cannot swallow that description of people who chose to Refuse as "self-righteous". You see, most of them don't refuse to actually not save what can be saved given the opportunity, but rather to send feedback to Bioware.
I chose refuse in EC because I reject such ending in which Bioware is trying to control my Shepard.

It was so nice to see that mask dropping from catalyst boy when he said in scaarrry voice: "So be it" to see some arrogant writer's real nature and laugh at it.

Ending is constructed in such way that there seems to be only a thin line between your Renegade that complied and my Paragon that rejected, and Bioware crossed even that line and said: "You are both the same. Weak. Manipulated to switch roles. And only way to win is to delude yourself, one way or the other".

Yeah, I know, before your basic point was that you cannot judge Shepard's decisions because you lack similar experience. (I would say perspective) and that is exactly the point.
I have lost all perspective/connection with that ****** Shepard that runs bare-handed on foot against a giant f..king space meat-grill and later is found chatting half.dead with an enemy of everything.
There was a line there crossed by catalyst and Bw where I just needed to shoot him in the face and renegade-out against his rules and symbolism.

Will there be cookies?  I'll go for cookies.Posted Image

I've only fiinished ME 3 twice where I allow myself to get past the beam.  One Refusal, oddly enough as Self Righteous Shepard, which is much harder to explain in a "brief" way, and Brutal Renegade Shep above.  However, I didn't see Destroy as compliance with the SC, it's what we built the thing for, and I intended to use it.  If there was a "Just tell me how to kill the Reapers and STFU" line, I'd have taken it.

The disconnect after the laser blast is exactly why I don't finish past the beam, however.  I've been to it at dozen times, or so, and past it twice.  I had to make myself do it the second time, as I said, because I was tired of rehashing the same character over and over, even if it was fun, the first time.  I may hash it out again later, and see what kinds of messes I can make, but there's lots of ways to get to the beam that I want to try, even if it means I have to play ME 2 again first to get my resolution to the CB, instead of the default version.

I don't have a problem having fun with it, as I can be quite creative within the constraints of what's offered.  I'm more focused on the journey though, instead of the destination, such as romancing Tali, not so much for the romance, which is ok, but to watch her stutter and stammer around in ME 2 in talks before the SM, it's cute to watch.  Plus, I still haven't managed to get peace between the Geth and Quarians.  I will not be defeated, since I know it can be done.  I don't think my Brutal Renegade can do it though, way too opinionated.Posted Image

#4898
Oxspit

Oxspit
  • Members
  • 75 messages

SHARXTREME wrote...



Oxspit wrote...
So. It seems pretty clear to me that the explanation for them was intended to be the dark energy thing. Quite apart from how well it fits into the original story, and how it manages to explain the reapers without cheapening them, they’re actively foreshadowing it in ME2. It’s also quite in keeping with the whole cosmicism thing - this is something the reapers themselves can’t control. In this light it becomes pretty clear that the original ending was intended to be bleak and tragic, but with possible little cracks of hope.


I would prefer that Dark Energy ending, it is SF. This, not so much. And not only that they have managed to cheapen Reapers role, they have managed to obliterate Reapers as a factor completely, and not only them, also everybody else's role is obliterated by Catalyst mechanism.

<plus snippage>



Yeah, you and me both.

I think what I find saddest about a lot of the fallout around the ending, though, is that much of the feed-back from players (hell, a lot of the feed-back found in this very thread) could actually be construed as vindicating their decision to change tack in the way they did. I can easily see people thinking 'wow, people are really annoyed about how Shepard dies, mass relays get destroyed and you face some tough choices at the end - imagine how they would have taken an option to sacrifice humanity to agree to building a human reaper, or not and face almost certain galactic destruction instead. I think we really dodged a bullet there'.

Well, that and the whole 'artistic integrity' line, I suppose. It seems pretty painfully apparent to me that the problems in the story of ME3 (which really do go well beyond just the ending being execrable) stem ultimately from a complete lack of precisely that in the basic story writing.

#4899
3DandBeyond

3DandBeyond
  • Members
  • 7 579 messages

Oxspit wrote...

SHARXTREME wrote...



Oxspit wrote...
So. It seems pretty clear to me that the explanation for them was intended to be the dark energy thing. Quite apart from how well it fits into the original story, and how it manages to explain the reapers without cheapening them, they’re actively foreshadowing it in ME2. It’s also quite in keeping with the whole cosmicism thing - this is something the reapers themselves can’t control. In this light it becomes pretty clear that the original ending was intended to be bleak and tragic, but with possible little cracks of hope.


I would prefer that Dark Energy ending, it is SF. This, not so much. And not only that they have managed to cheapen Reapers role, they have managed to obliterate Reapers as a factor completely, and not only them, also everybody else's role is obliterated by Catalyst mechanism.

<plus snippage>



Yeah, you and me both.

I think what I find saddest about a lot of the fallout around the ending, though, is that much of the feed-back from players (hell, a lot of the feed-back found in this very thread) could actually be construed as vindicating their decision to change tack in the way they did. I can easily see people thinking 'wow, people are really annoyed about how Shepard dies, mass relays get destroyed and you face some tough choices at the end - imagine how they would have taken an option to sacrifice humanity to agree to building a human reaper, or not and face almost certain galactic destruction instead. I think we really dodged a bullet there'.

Well, that and the whole 'artistic integrity' line, I suppose. It seems pretty painfully apparent to me that the problems in the story of ME3 (which really do go well beyond just the ending being execrable) stem ultimately from a complete lack of precisely that in the basic story writing.


You know what is really sad is this:
We could all be here discussing just how awesome the vastly different endings were because most of us know the discussions would have been far different if the endings had run the gamut from a dark and sad loss to a real uncompromising victory.

I for one know that what most people wanted was for their decisions to lead naturally to an almost apocalyptic type of fight for existence.  That's what this was supposed to be about.  And yes I am talking about a real fight using war assets against reapers.  I could imagine Shepard/the player continuing to make choices as in ME2's suicide mission that could bend the results.  Telling the Normandy to go and help Hackett's ship instead of covering your team in battle. 

The endings could very likely have evolved naturally from all of this and not from artificial choices that we can all get no matter how we play.

I envisioned a hard fought win as well as a depressing loss and the possibility of getting Shepard out of it alive for both, even if one would have him/her see the reapers win and watch everyone die and then die him/herself.  I envisioned Shepard having to make some meaningful sacrifice in a real war for a purpose and not because fantasy boy has a problem.  I also envisioned the reapers might be defeated and Shepard might lose teammates, LI, the Earth, and other things.  Or they all might live, all planets "saved" with rebuilding needed and the tragedy of all those who died realized.  I saw a truly epic ending that focused on all the characters we knew who were carrying out the roles they were meant for, why they were hired to act in this story.  Shepard, teammates, LI, and reapers. 

I never envisioned the ending of ME would involve a conversation with the "new guy" that dropped in and needed Shepard's help to solve a problem Shepard would never see as a problem.  Or that Shepard would really vocally and repeatedly say is only a problem because of the kid and his reapers-because the only synthetics that are repeatedly killing organics are his "boys".

I don't mine plot twists.  I do mind someone calling this a plot twist.  Most plot twists turn in another direction and allow you to go back and see why they make sense based on all the other things you were shown in a story.  They don't rip the whole plot out of the story and then start a brand new story at the end of a 100 hour long read.

#4900
Oxspit

Oxspit
  • Members
  • 75 messages
@3DandBeyond

Yeah, I don't think I ever could have bought an uncompromising victory to this story. I think it would have been a complete departure from the scene set in ME1, even if they'd thrown the "don't build up too many essential plot devices for one of the three acts in the acts before it: focus on new gamers" edict and had you actively prepare for the invasion throughout ME2.

Arguments over a conventional victory are really just silly. The reapers are, by construction, just given every conceivable advantage over us. When people think they're discovering 'weaknesses' they're just discovering, at most, stuff the authors didn't think of.

As to an unconventional victory....well, did it bother you that you could build the crucible at all?

It really should have.

This is the biggest construction project in the history of the cycle, military or otherwise. It has to be organised at the drop of a hat, then completed at break-neck speed diverting massive resources and making use of as many of the finest minds the galaxy has to offer.... and here's the kicker: it has do be done in secret.

That would have been a pretty staggeringly tough task at the best of times, but the reapers have indoctrination on their side - quite apart from the complete military superiority that means their intelligence operations aren't hampered by their being bogged down in other tasks.

Added to which you constantly overhear - overhear - conversations on the Citadel about the crucible project. That the reapers have no idea you're building it is just so contrived as to represent a "let's just pretend they don't know".

The point being, even when you swallow the absurdity of finding that super-weapon in the first place, that you can actually construct and use it is a major stretch on credulity. Well, mine at least.

The thing that makes the dark energy line so good. The terrifying thing you would have learned is the reapers motivation. What would have been terrifying about it is not that it is monstrous or patently evil. What would have been terrifying about it is that it's actually a very good reason. It acually becomes hard to justify that stopping them is the right thing to do.

But the fact that it is such a good reason is precisely what makes some manner of negotiation or truce with the reapers viable (a 'victory' without a necessary 'defeat').

That's how you set up a truly hard choice.

As I say, I think that that is basically where they'd decided to originally take the story. But dark energy was just so bleak .... so, hey, why don't we just basically do the same thing with a different, less awful consequence of having the reapers stop reaping, hey?

Well, because without that, the 'tough' choice is just stupid, isn't it?