5087 réponses à ce sujet

[NorDee65]

I have absented myself from this forum for quite a while due to the frustration created by waiting for some "clarification on ending", where I'd rather rant "no no no, change it! ...Please.". But this thread is great, and I feel compelled to participate...

I admit I had entertained a few pangs of misgivings when I learned that the present cycle can be saved by a supposed prothean design of gigantic proportions, where nobody knows what it is supposed to do and how. During the course of the game we are stirred through the galaxy in search of information on the prothean artifact, sentients (and scientists) who might help making heads or tails of it, and resources. We are actually building something that could well be a trap. There are moments ingame, where Shepard is rather uneasy, especially after talking to the prothean VI on Thessia and on Cerberus Base. (At least that's my take).

But Shepard never gets to question it at all. I can, of course, only speak for myself, but the moment my Shepard learned that the Citadel is the Catalyst, my red alerts went off.

The Citadel, build by the Reapers or their maker, and a giant mass relay to boot? With a control mechanism to shut off all the mass relays but to the Reapers IFF, thus isolating each system? And suddenly it becomes a weapon against its very creator/s? (Especially considering that the plans for the crucible may very well stem from that very same source).

Starchilds appearance then, did not come as a surprise, but certainly was not apreciated. The endings that followed were indeed of game breaking proportions, in opposition to the many choices Shepard made (had to make), whether Renegade or Paragon. And I would really have liked to enter into a philosophical discussion with starchild. Order vs. chaos? ("the universe loves diversity") Apex of evolution or stagnation? And how many more cycles until the Big Chill (or Big Rip).

If some elements of the ending are retained, is there a possibilty this could have worked? (And I am not talking about IT, which has it's points, but also flaws, as pointed out in another thread).

To make this short: Perhaps. If Shepard with the help of EDI and/or the Geth, and maybe David Archer and others could have been able to rewrite the Citadel/Catalyst/Crucible programming to whatever ending choices available. A precedent for this exist in the prothean scientists who were able to rewrite the Citadel programming in not automatically responding to Sovereigs's signal in opening the massive mass relay in ME1. That, at least imho, could have retained some of the original spirit of the previous games. Of course, this does not address the fact that Shepard is supposed to hurry through a death trap, past some giant reaper (Harbinger?) to enter a beam of light...and, damn! where is the resistance movement on the Citadel?

[chmarr]

~SLIGHT EDIT~

so its been 6 weeks since ME3 was launched, in this time we have done a LOT and i mean A LOT (points to mr bonds reposts of weblinks).

in 6 weeks we started a SMALL petition about getting the endings changed / fixed / retconned and what we have actually done is nothing short of miraculous.

heres a run down on what we have done

1) - protested about the ending

2)- provided REAL FACTS about ME3 / EA / Bioware faults and fiction

3)- sent in cupcakes as a protest (all the same flavour and in 3 wonderful colours red, green and blue

4)- had 1000 origami paper cranes sent to them in the same 3 colours

5)- managed to have bioware change there ENTIRE PAX address, they were supposed to have announced DA3 as well as few other things

6)- we managed to make them change it from a live stream online to an almost closed out panel, yes the panel WAS supposed to have been streamed,

7)- we made them have an almost media blackout at PAX, only SELECT media that was PRO EA was allowed in

8)- we UNINTENTIONALY forced them to give us PAID DLC as full on FREE DLC

9)- DISPROVED there "artistic integrity" claims from various outlets

10)- we made biowares BIGGEST fan (IGN) to retract and apoligize to US and actually inadvertintly support us

11)- proven without a shadow of a doubt that bioware took ESSIENTAL parts of the game to sell as DLC (i cant be arsed going through the ENTIRE thread to find the link(s) someone provided that did in fact prove it)

12)- gained support from well respected websites within the world of buisiness and technolgy

the biggest by far we actually got SOME of the people who reviewed ME3 and gave it a perfect score actually go back and play a RETAIL version, SOME of those reviewers have since then RETRACTED there perfect score and gave it a much lower score.

we i FEEL that we have started that is causing huge waves throughout the gaming industry, this just started with 10 people that then suddenly grew to insaine proprtions.

we have had other game developers suddenly stop, look and listen to whats happening

the eyes of the game development world are ALL ON BIOWARE as of this moment, they are waiting to see what they will do and most of all wait for OUR reaction.

we have started other game companys to rethink there game development, rethink promises rethink there entire strategy when it comes to games and DLC.

our rippes became waves and they are slowly turning into tidal waves where other fans of other games are now doing what we are doing ( COD fan protests are slowly starting to meld into a single group just like us)

i think we have started something bigger than we thought, i think we have started a gaming revolution.

Modifié par chmarr, 20 avril 2012 - 07:36 .

[malra]

viva the revelution

[-Spartan]

I started to work on a list of links for people to read but ran out of time due to students visitng me. When I came back I noticed a nice list developed DJBare. With some updates it is as follows:

Rules of Conduct

Deviantart, The future of story telling has arrived


Mass Effect 3 Did you get what you paid for?, you decide.
An End Once and For All


Find below some important links you may want to follow.

Turn On / Off Bioware, Facebook and twitter campaign to take place starting the 28th of April.


Retake Mass Effect, HTL
MOvement survey map
Unify the groups
Calculate the size and reach of Retake
Survey regarding likes and dislikes about the ending
Audio Interview with the Organizer of RetakeME3
Retake Mass Effect Group on BSN ***Please Join***
Retake Mass Effect on Facebook
Retake Mass Effect on Youtube
PAX East Platoon
Adamantium93, So about those "Insightful' and "Philosophical" endings...
HoldTheLine, A website who's main asset is a forum which has gone to great length to unify the community.
Retakemasseffect.org, This is a resource site with fun things like daily initiatives (like an N7 avatar generator) to get people involved.
Retake Mass Effect Banner Templates
Mission Statement Thread
Mass Effect 3 Resource Site with collection of statements and reports
Retake Mass Effect 3 Statistics


Polls
Is "clarification" DLC enough?
Are you happy with the DLC announcement?
How bad was the ending?
Since we're getting paid DLC, is it enough for Bioware to just "clarify"?
Poll About Your reaction on Dr. Ray Muzyka's statement on 21st March 2012
Poll About The Ending
'Official' Poll For Mass Effect 3 Ending DLC
[POLL] What exactly would you change with the ending?


Provide Bioware with your feedback
Bioware official DLC feedback thread
Leave your feedback on Dr. Ray Muzyka's statement from 21st March 2012
Official ME3 Suggested Changes Feedback Thread


Bioware's Promises pre-game release and their PR response analysed
EA/Bioware in Full PR Damage Control Mode ***Regularly UPDATED***


Latest News/blogs
Mass Effect 3 Ending: Legal Experts Weigh In On "Deceptive Advertising"
Mass Effect 3's Ending Controversy Is Actually Good for the Industry
Mass Effect, Tolkien, and Your Bull**** Artistic Process
Forbes, Mass Effect 3 Ending 'Provoked A Bigger Fan Reaction Than Any Other' In Video Game History
IBT,'Mass Effect 3' Ending: Bioware, EA Guilty Of False Marketing? Legal Repercussions?
“Mass Effect 3 is Having a ‘Mass Effect’ on Its Consumers for Better or Worse”
Forbes, What Do the Fans Want? Talking with Retake Mass Effect
Game Front, Mass Effect 3 Ending: Change Could Have Empowered Game Writing
Kotaku Power 40
***Attention*** Mass Effect Survey Scam
Forbes, EA Shrugs Off Worst Company in America Title
Forbes, EA is the Worst Company in America, Now What?
BBC News, Mass Effect 3 to get extended ending at no cost to gamers
BioWare Announces Mass Effect 3: Extended Cut
Bioware blog,Mass Effect 3 Extended Cut
Forbes,Fans Victorious: Mass Effect 3 to Expand Ending with Free 'Extended Cut' DLC
Forbes, BioWare Announces Mass Effect 3 Extended Cut - But Is It A Victory For Fans?
"Mass Effect 3" Ending: Did Fan Protests Cause EA Stock Price To Drop?
Giant Bomb, Sticking the Landing
Forbes, The Real Precedent Being Set By Mass Effect 3 Protests
Forbes, Six Reasons Why Changing The Mass Effect 3 Ending Won't Threaten Its 'Artistic Integrity'
Killer Kittens from Mars, Charity sees the need, not the cause - German proverb
International Business Times, ‘Mass Effect 3’ Ending: Disappointed Fans Send Bioware 402 Cupcakes In Protest
California Literary Review, Reaping the Harvest of Poor Choices
Fprbes, Mass Effect 3 Protesters Sending Cupcakes to Bioware
Forbes, Why Most Websites Have to Make Nice to the Industry
Forbes, New Ending Setting Precedence?
Forbes, Commander Shepard Actor Mark Meer Weighs In On Mass Effect 3 Ending And DLC
Forbes on indoctrination theory
Forbes reports on Dr. Ray Muzyka's statement
Forbes, Why Child's Play Stopped Taking Donations From Retake Mass Effect
Forbes, Further Thoughts on Mass Effect 3's Ending and Future DLC
Forbes, Mass Effect 3 And Corporate Influence Over Commercial Art
CVG, Mass Effect 3: 86% think BioWare blew the ending
BBC news technology section
Dr. Ray Muzyka's statement on 21st March 2012
GotGame, The
customer is always right.
NY Daily News about Retake Mass Effect
The Telegraph in UK reporting about our movement
The wall street journal, Why the Ending of Mass Effect 3 Started a Furor
IBT, ‘Mass Effect 3’ Ending: ‘The New Yorker’ Weighs In On Fan Protests


Videos
'Mass Effect 3' Ending FAIL ('The Wanted' Parody) - Terence Jay Music
Mass Effect 3 Hamster Ending
Angry Joe, Mass Effect 3: Extended Cut DLC Discussion
G4TV, Feedback: Mass Effect 3 Ending Controversy
Mass Effect 3: Never ending nightmare.
Jim Sterling gets it!
he Mass Effect 3 Indoctrination Theory: Tasteful, Understated Nerdrage (SPOILERS)
Retake Mass Effect - A Character Tribute
I Am the Very Model of a Mass Effect Enthusiast (SPOILERS)
Global EDMONTON, Cupcake protest against Mass Effect 3
RetakeMassEffect - Fan Testimonies
Mass Effect 3 Ending: Tasteful, Understated Nerdrage (SPOILERS)
Archengeia number 1, Mass Effect 3 Ending: My Thoughts, What Could Have Been, What Should Have Been
Archengeia number 2, Mass Effect 3: My Thoughts, Continued; Potential, Illusive Man, and Cerberus
Archengeia number 3, Mass Effect 3: Responses to Comments, The Importance of Choice, and The Indoctrination Theory
Archengeia number 4, Mass Effect 3: Extended Cut DLC, The Analogy, and The Choice We Face
Smudboy, Mass Effect 3: Bookends of Destruction Part 1
Smudboy, Mass Effect 3: Bookends of Destruction Part 2


Alernative endings created by fans
StElmo, Mass Effect 3 Alternative Cut Down Ending, Paragon Femshep
Mass Effect 3 "Extended Fan Cut"
Mass Effect 3 - Alernate ending, Liara as LI
Mass Effect 3: Re-Edited Ending
Mass Effect 3 - Alternate Fan Ending - Liara Version 


Hold the line and your wallet!


NOTE: I just discovered another resource thread entitled The Data Cache which has a lot of links and other stuff related to the topic which is very good. It also appears to be updated regularly. You can read the thread here.

Modifié par -Spartan, 20 avril 2012 - 09:14 .

[kegNeggs]

Ah, this is marvelous! What a brilliant OP. Learned men and indeed women writing down their thoughts are a true sight for sore eyes!

"And this was the analogy I made to Made Nightwing in our discussion (and which I have bored people with elsewhere): this bewildering finale felt as if you had been listening to a soaring orchestral movement that ended in a cacophonous blast, the musicians tossing down their instruments and walking away."

This is a statement that is true on so many levels, it just sums it up perfectly.

[SkaldFish]

@noivoieidoi: I'm going to respond to this in some detail, primarily because I have a low tolerence threshold for this kind of petulant tone. I very much enjoy civil debate, and there's been a lot of that on this thread, but your response uses an arrogant stance and demeaning remarks to reinforce weak assertions, so please refrain from such a declamatory posture in the future so we can have a more beneficial conversation.

noivoieidoi wrote...
It’s like asking where the copper in your car’s wiring came from, when you should focus on your destination. These questions never occurred to me, or I thought the answers were obvious, and surely we focused on and enjoyed different aspects of the game. Except for the Catalyst-Citadel, which I find to be an intriguing and great character (unfortunately underdeveloped), unlike many others in the game. I mentioned in several places the evidence pointing to its origin and possible back story, as the very first rebel of the galaxy, who found a way to dominate from shadows its creators, the Reapers, and have an imperceptible but huge influence in the galaxy for aeons. Or maybe this is only what reading haiku in my childhood did to me.

I think I'm going to go with the latter, though I'm reluctant to sully haiku's reputation. It simply isn't intellectually honest to declare another's criticsm of narrative quality to be invalid because you decided to deem its flaws inconsequential, then graft extra-narratvie semantic content to it to make answers obvious and characters intriguing.

noivoieidoi wrote...
The Catalyst-Citadel surrenders its power and its place as the master of the galaxy to Shepard. Shepard needs to ascend in order to do that, and so become the supreme villain or benefactor of the galaxy (depends on your point of view), giving up his/her humanity. You (the player) should take a step back and try and see the big picture, fully understand the stakes and ask yourself what is to become a god like. Shepard guides you here, hesitating to assume such responsibility. I don’t know a lot of people who meditate over that. Can’t see how it fits the definition of vulgarity.

What you've described doesn't fit the definition of vulgarity, and it's quite definitely an interesting idea on which to meditate. But it's also another extra-narrative extrapolation that you have stapled on to the provided content to lend it unmerited significance. If I claim an Ed Wood movie is actually an unappreciated gem because the unwashed masses just don't realize that it's actually a brilliant statement against Kantian Idealism, I sound quite profound but my contention has no verifiable basis within the body of the work itself (or anything Wood had to say about it). If I can't site content that unambiguously supports my assertion, then I'm just verbalizing introspective rationaliztion, not providing a basis for narrative analysis or evaluation.

noivoieidoi wrote..
Correct, the idea of destroying the Reapers is repulsive. And this is the whole point: when facing death (or even caught in less threatening events), what would you do? It’s a theme never fully explored, but often debated in war fictional or documentary works, based on real life events. It’s even harder to make a choice when you base it on conflicting data: some consequences of your preceding actions seem to point towards the possibility of a peaceful and reasonable agreement (though far from entirely disproving etc.), and on the other hand your last hope, the virtually immortal Catalyst-Citadel says nope, on long term this inevitably ends badly. What do you do? Oh, I get it... it’s easier to evade it entirely by yelling ‘bad writing, you shouldn’t ask me such questions!’, isn’t it?

But it IS objectively poor writing, and, once again, assigning a point and theme of your own choosing in order to claim profundity so you can then ridicule that assertion is hardly a valid critical position. It just further erodes your credibility. Taken in isolation, Shepard's choices are certainly difficult. But when we consider them within the actual cumulative thematic and narrative context we've been given, we can see that they are difficult because they are violently dissociative. This is why words like "vulgar" and "distasteful" are being used to describe them.

Context cannot be ignored when evaluating narrative, and it must be limited to the context provided by the writer(s), not supplemented by extra-narrative content we apply to fill in the gaps.

noivoieidoi wrote..

drayfish wrote...
<snip/>

To belabour the point: Shepard is an agent for arbitration, the tipping point of dialogues that have, at times, root causes that reach back across generations. Up until this moment in the game the narrative, and Shepard's role within it, has been about the negotiation of diversity, testing the validity of opposing viewpoints and selecting a path through which to evolve on to another layer of questioning. Suddenly with the Synthesis ending, Shepard's capacity to make decisions elevates from offering a moral tipping point to arbitrarily wiping such disparity from the world. Shepard imposes his/her will upon every species, every form of life within the galaxy, making them all a dreary homogenous oneness. At such a point, wiping negotiation and multiplicity from the universe, Shepard moves from being an influential voice amongst a biodiversity of thought to sacrificing him/herself in an omnipotent imposition of will.

And your point is?...  I mean – any other choice Shepard would have made would impose his/her will in the galaxy. Moral tipping point? Now you symbolize the evil/good in the galaxy, please rise to the expectations. The old moral rules don’t apply anymore; in fact, now YOU make the moral rules, on a new foundation, a galactic vision. This ALWAYS happens, as scientifically demonstrated (and shown in the 3 games too): moral rules dynamically change with the side you are on, your position in society and the power you have. Now you are a god – the highest and most powerful position in galaxy and above any rivalry or tribal interests. So, what’s with all this ‘moral tipping point’ nonsense? Oh, yes, I think I might have heard of it when I was a puny human. Now it's gone. Good. Never felt comfortable with it anyway. ‘Wiping such disparity from the world’... Hum... On Earth we are all humans. Not only all DNA based, but all a single species. Does anybody see any uniformity coming around the corner anytime soon? Getting rid of wars and other such violent and tragic arguments is highly praised; people want at least this kind of uniformity. The reality is far from that though.  How about the very dividing debate about the endings of ME3?

This is where you really lose credibility in my estimation. Dray makes the Synthesis point quite clear -- to the point he feels he is belaboring it -- then you respond by claiming the point is moot because theme, characterization, and the rules governing morality have all changed! Do you realize how patently absurd it is to use clear violations of narrative coherence to invalidate a point being used to illustrate them?

You insist on creating your own rules for valid criticism so that you can add semantic content at will to dismiss any point with which you take exception. "Now you are a god..." Oldest, most evasive trope in the book. Every point you make after this is similarly meritless and hopelessly based on your subjective evaluation and augmentation of the game's content.

I will make an observation about your final paragraph, though:

noivoieidoi wrote..
And probably here lies the best explanation for our differences: I didn’t feel any special psychological attachment to the story or the characters in the three games and my expectations for the ending were pretty low compared to the others’. Kind of cheesy-heroic-something, in line with the ME series. Maybe I’m too demanding, but only a few games made me feel for the characters (only The Witcher and TLJ-Dreamfall series come to mind at this time). So, I was pleasantly surprised and now I hope the Real Mass Effect for Matures will commence, through a new, less action and more puzzle oriented series of games, consistent with the ending of ME3.

Why bother? Why not just make ALL the content up yourself? You're 90% of the way there already, so no waiting is necessary - you can start playing in your mind right now. Enjoy the profundity.

Modifié par SkaldFish, 20 avril 2012 - 08:27 .

[Tuthsok]

Re: OP Good Read. Thank You.

[bc525]

Made Nightwing wrote...

My name is Dr. Dray, and I should start by saying: oh, dear, I've been cited for my nerd indignation. I'm surprised Made Nightwing didn't mention that my little fists were shaking with rage. But they were. They did. With feeble, pointless nerd rage.

 

Interesting that the post began with this statement.  What followed was a thoughtful explanation of why those fists were shaking with rage, and it was very enjoyable to read as well.  It's been a while since my collegiate days, and my collegiate days were spent in pursuit of a mechanical engineering degree so my literary evaluation skills probably aren't on a par with those expressed in this thread.

That said, the ME3 ending didn't upset me nearly that much, and in fact, the ending intrigued me enough that I sought to understand what the writers were trying to convey.  It didn't upset me, it sparked my curiousity.

Just some food for thought here, but here's a link to an article posted that uses some astrobiological theories as support for an explanation ofd the various ME3 endings.  Maybe most here have seen this article, but maybe some have not.  Of course it's one person's speculation, but in my opinion it is interesting reading.


http://galacticpillo...ffect-3-ending/

[aftermath_diogo]

Geeeee... love your teacher. and agree with him on every single word he said...

[RShara]

bc525 wrote...

Made Nightwing wrote...

My name is Dr. Dray, and I should start by saying: oh, dear, I've been cited for my nerd indignation. I'm surprised Made Nightwing didn't mention that my little fists were shaking with rage. But they were. They did. With feeble, pointless nerd rage.

 

Interesting that the post began with this statement.  What followed was a thoughtful explanation of why those fists were shaking with rage, and it was very enjoyable to read as well.  It's been a while since my collegiate days, and my collegiate days were spent in pursuit of a mechanical engineering degree so my literary evaluation skills probably aren't on a par with those expressed in this thread.

That said, the ME3 ending didn't upset me nearly that much, and in fact, the ending intrigued me enough that I sought to understand what the writers were trying to convey.  It didn't upset me, it sparked my curiousity.

Just some food for thought here, but here's a link to an article posted that uses some astrobiological theories as support for an explanation ofd the various ME3 endings.  Maybe most here have seen this article, but maybe some have not.  Of course it's one person's speculation, but in my opinion it is interesting reading.


http://galacticpillo...ffect-3-ending/

I read that article and I kept trying to get people in that thread to read this one.

Most criticisms of the ending are not due to the "science" conflicts between real life and Mass Effect.  It's the fact that the Mass Effect Science's internal consistency breaks down during the ending, introducing new maybe-consequences to actions with pre-established consequences.

It's also the fact that the endings violated thematic rules of writing that makes them so jarring.

Modifié par RShara, 20 avril 2012 - 09:53 .

[N7KnightSabre]

Love this thread and thanks for posting all of the links on this page.

[bc525]

RShara wrote...

It's also the fact that the endings violated thematic rules of writing that makes them so jarring.

Fair enough.

I have to ask though, there are rules that a story's themes must follow?

[The Night Mammoth]

bc525 wrote...

RShara wrote...

It's also the fact that the endings violated thematic rules of writing that makes them so jarring.

Fair enough.

I have to ask though, there are rules that a story's themes must follow?

You don't have to continue them up until the end.

You certainly shouldn't contradict them, or introduce entirely new ones this late on in the story. 

[zarnk567]

The only reason I dont like the ending is beacuse a story can't have it's ending completely break the Narrative cohesion of the enitre story, It also should not break the "suspesion of dis-belief". If this happens you get what happens here. Which is people finding flaws in every single piece of your literary work, due to them not making sense. Where as if the ending had not broken that rule people would just over-look these problems and say it fits with the story and the universe, Due to the fans immersion in the universe not being broken.
This is really important in a sci-fi epic or fantasy as these stories rely on the reader to be immeressed in the writers universe to accept alot of what is happening in the story. 

Modifié par zarnk567, 20 avril 2012 - 11:07 .

[SkaldFish]

-Spartan wrote...

I started to work on a list of links for people to read but ran out of time due to students visitng me. When I came back I noticed a nice list developed DJBare. With some updates it is as follows:

<snip/>

Latest News/blogs
Mass Effect 3 Ending: Legal Experts Weigh In On "Deceptive Advertising"

<snip/>

LOL - I hadn't seen the article I left "unsnipped" above, so I followed the link & read it. It's by a journalist who writes for the gaming industry who asks attornies and analysts whose paychecks come from the gaming industry whether they felt a BBB representative's statements about EA/BioWare engaging in false advertising were valid. At the risk of stretching the simile, isn't that sort of like asking the cat sitting by the cage with a yellow feather sticking out of its mouth if it's seen your canary?

Amazing what the media often dumps in our laps and expects us to accept these days.

Modifié par SkaldFish, 20 avril 2012 - 11:09 .

[-Spartan]

SkaldFish wrote...

-Spartan wrote...

I started to work on a list of links for people to read but ran out of time due to students visitng me. When I came back I noticed a nice list developed DJBare. With some updates it is as follows:

<snip/>

Latest News/blogs
Mass Effect 3 Ending: Legal Experts Weigh In On "Deceptive Advertising"

<snip/>

LOL - I hadn't seen the article I left "unsnipped" above, so I followed the link & read it. It's by a journalist who writes for the gaming industry who asks attornies and analysts whose paychecks come from the gaming industry whether they felt a BBB representative's statements about EA/BioWare engaging in false advertising were valid. At the risk of stretching the simile, isn't that sort of like asking the cat sitting by the cage with a yellow feather sticking out of its mouth if it's seen your canary?

Amazing what the media often dumps in our laps and expects us to accept these days.

I like to think conflict of interest rubs are usually noticeable by the discerning eye. I love the crack about litigiousness. I wonder how many publishers would forego suing someone for "stepping on" their franchise rights so flippantly? Things that make you go hmmmm...  

Nonetheless he [and they] is/are expert(s) and given the nature of this thread it seemed most apt to list it. 

Modifié par -Spartan, 20 avril 2012 - 11:33 .

[bc525]

zarnk567 wrote...


The only reason I dont like the ending is beacuse a story can't have it's ending completely break the Narrative cohesion of the enitre story, It also should not break the "suspesion of dis-belief". If this happens you get what happens here. Which is people finding flaws in every single piece of your literary work, due to them not making sense. Where as if the ending had not broken that rule people would just over-look these problems and say it fits with the story and the universe, Due to the fans immersion in the universe not being broken.
This is really important in a sci-fi epic or fantasy as these stories rely on the reader to be immeressed in the writers universe to accept alot of what is happening in the story. 

When it comes to literary evaluation, thematic rules, suspension of disbelief, etc. I freely admit that I'm a wee bit out of my element.  However, I am an avid sci-fi reader, sci-fi movie goer, and sci-fi gamer (obviously), and it's so interesting to me that violating thematic rules didn't truly upset me or break my immersion with the ME3 ending.

It had the opposite effect.  Shepard was very seriously wounded and disoriented, and it disoriented me as the player.  How did Anderson beat me to the Citadel?  Was the Catalyst Child deceiving Shepard?  Why was the Destroy option signified in Renegade Red?  My Shepard was of a single-minded purpose to destroy the Reapers and now the option that  (in my thoughts) should be the Paragon option was the Renegade option.  Control should be the Renegade option not the Paragon one.  Things were flipped, and the scene really sparked my curiousity to understand this confusion.

I wanted to know why.  I wanted to get my bearings and understand why everything was being turned on its ear.  That disorientation was interesting, not something that ruined my Mass Effect experience.  Different strokes for different folks I guess.

Also, I asked about the "thematic rules" phrase because it reminded me of a scene from Dead Poets Society where Dr J Evans Pritchard, PhD, proposed that poetry should be measured on a graph to truly understand its greatness.  Of course, that's absurd.  In my opinion, a work of fiction is open to any and all interpretations, regardless of the rules of engagement.

[SkaldFish]

-Spartan wrote...

SkaldFish wrote...

-Spartan wrote...

I started to work on a list of links for people to read but ran out of time due to students visitng me. When I came back I noticed a nice list developed DJBare. With some updates it is as follows:

<snip/>

Latest News/blogs
Mass Effect 3 Ending: Legal Experts Weigh In On "Deceptive Advertising"

<snip/>

LOL - I hadn't seen the article I left "unsnipped" above, so I followed the link & read it. It's by a journalist who writes for the gaming industry who asks attornies and analysts whose paychecks come from the gaming industry whether they felt a BBB representative's statements about EA/BioWare engaging in false advertising were valid. At the risk of stretching the simile, isn't that sort of like asking the cat sitting by the cage with a yellow feather sticking out of its mouth if it's seen your canary?

Amazing what the media often dumps in our laps and expects us to accept these days.

I like to think conflict of interest rubs are usually noticeable by the discerning eye. I love the crack about litigiousness. I wonder how many publishers would forego suing someone for "stepping on" their franchise rights so flippantly? Things that make you go hmmmm...  

Nonetheless he [and they] is/are expert(s) and given the nature of this thread it seemed most apt to list it. 

Oh, I didn't mean to suggest it shouldn't be listed. It was actually interesting to read their arguments. Sometimes I just can't seem to exercise adequate restraint when there's an opportunity for sarcasm...

[RShara]

bc525 wrote...

zarnk567 wrote...


The only reason I dont like the ending is beacuse a story can't have it's ending completely break the Narrative cohesion of the enitre story, It also should not break the "suspesion of dis-belief". If this happens you get what happens here. Which is people finding flaws in every single piece of your literary work, due to them not making sense. Where as if the ending had not broken that rule people would just over-look these problems and say it fits with the story and the universe, Due to the fans immersion in the universe not being broken.
This is really important in a sci-fi epic or fantasy as these stories rely on the reader to be immeressed in the writers universe to accept alot of what is happening in the story. 

When it comes to literary evaluation, thematic rules, suspension of disbelief, etc. I freely admit that I'm a wee bit out of my element.  However, I am an avid sci-fi reader, sci-fi movie goer, and sci-fi gamer (obviously), and it's so interesting to me that violating thematic rules didn't truly upset me or break my immersion with the ME3 ending.

It had the opposite effect.  Shepard was very seriously wounded and disoriented, and it disoriented me as the player.  How did Anderson beat me to the Citadel?  Was the Catalyst Child deceiving Shepard?  Why was the Destroy option signified in Renegade Red?  My Shepard was of a single-minded purpose to destroy the Reapers and now the option that  (in my thoughts) should be the Paragon option was the Renegade option.  Control should be the Renegade option not the Paragon one.  Things were flipped, and the scene really sparked my curiousity to understand this confusion.

I wanted to know why.  I wanted to get my bearings and understand why everything was being turned on its ear.  That disorientation was interesting, not something that ruined my Mass Effect experience.  Different strokes for different folks I guess.

Also, I asked about the "thematic rules" phrase because it reminded me of a scene from Dead Poets Society where Dr J Evans Pritchard, PhD, proposed that poetry should be measured on a graph to truly understand its greatness.  Of course, that's absurd.  In my opinion, a work of fiction is open to any and all interpretations, regardless of the rules of engagement.

Yes there are.  I won't list them all for you right now, but basically, stories and plotlines are often called ARCS for a reason.
There's setup/introduction, there's buildup and storytelling, rising to an eventual climax, then a denoument or reconcilation of the story, and then the end.

Here...wikipedia describes it better
Dramatic Structure
Basically, ME3 to a lot of people, cuts off the tip of the climax, and drops to the ground, with very little denoument.

Then there's the introduction of themes completely opposing 99% of the previous story, and introducing an "important" new character in the last few minutes of the story (classically a DXM)

The thematic rules are followed because they work for 99% of the population.  Violating them can be done, but you have to be brilliant to do it successfully.

ME3 was not brilliant.

Modifié par RShara, 21 avril 2012 - 12:06 .

[bc525]

RShara wrote...

The thematic rules are followed because they work for 99% of the population.  Violating them can be done, but you have to be brilliant to do it successfully.

99% of the population?  How do you know this, is that figure in the wikipedia article?

Nah, I'm just teasing.  I get your drift, but honestly these thematic rules could be open for interpretation, couldn't they?  What worked for me in the ME3 ending, clearly didn't work for you.  That's cool.

It's just strange that creative works should fit within a set of rules.  That contradicts my impression of creativity, since creativity can (and often does) break accepted conventions.  Is it possible that people who study literary works maybe lose some appreciation of literary works?  Maybe they get too caught up in analyzing the rhyme and meter of the work?

[RShara]

Yes, the rules are open to interpretation, they're not a set of chains. Think of them as the railings around a tall staircase. They're there to help keep you from falling.

Interpretation wise, as the article says, in modern times, there's been a rising to a climax, only to have some sudden stumbling block that crashes the world down around the protagonist, then a "revelation" that raises the character back up, and the struggle to the top continues. A modern adaptation to an ancient guideline.

And they're rules because they work. Watch any movie that you like, read any book that you enjoy, and you will see this in action.

As I said, yes, someone sufficiently talented can break all of these rules, and create a wondrous and amazing piece of creativity that will revolutionize the medium.

But Mass Effect 3 is not that.

As a side note. Even creativity has rules. A painter has to use paint, and adhere to the rules governing the visible spectrum. He must have a medium and a subject. He also needs to be consistent in his work. I don't know that many people would enjoy, say, a landscape scene of excruciating detail and realism, and have a cartoon bunny standing in the middle of it.

[zarnk567]

bc525 wrote...

RShara wrote...

The thematic rules are followed because they work for 99% of the population.  Violating them can be done, but you have to be brilliant to do it successfully.

99% of the population?  How do you know this, is that figure in the wikipedia article?

Nah, I'm just teasing.  I get your drift, but honestly these thematic rules could be open for interpretation, couldn't they?  What worked for me in the ME3 ending, clearly didn't work for you.  That's cool.

It's just strange that creative works should fit within a set of rules.  That contradicts my impression of creativity, since creativity can (and often does) break accepted conventions.  Is it possible that people who study literary works maybe lose some appreciation of literary works?  Maybe they get too caught up in analyzing the rhyme and meter of the work?

You cant approach a story like a painting, just like you can't approach a painting like a story. If you dont have a set of rules to follow the story will just devolve into chaos, I have no idea if this is the same for an artist so I will just stick with writing. Take an introduction, we need that to introduce our protagnist and a-bit of the world of which he or her is having his or her experience take place, without following just this simple writing rule we would just be throwing our reader into a random world they know nothing about. With a protagnist they know nothing about as well. The introduction also allows us to build off of something cause we have now have established the protagnist and a-bit of the world around him or her.

What I'm trying to say is it's not beacause writers are un-imaginative that we follow these writing mechanics, infact it helps us express our story in a better and more coherant manner for the reader. So they can become lost in our "art" .

Modifié par zarnk567, 21 avril 2012 - 12:53 .

[RShara]

It's like how sentences have a structure that you follow without even thinking about it. Which one of these sentences appeals to you more?

I dislike the endings because I feel they were inconsistent with the presented themes during the rest of the game.

i hate end sucked cuz it wuz bs

Or even better

endings dislike themes the with game I were with inconsistent the because feel I during rest they presented the of.

[optimistickied]

bc525 wrote...

RShara wrote...

The thematic rules are followed because they work for 99% of the population.  Violating them can be done, but you have to be brilliant to do it successfully.

99% of the population?  How do you know this, is that figure in the wikipedia article?

Nah, I'm just teasing.  I get your drift, but honestly these thematic rules could be open for interpretation, couldn't they?  What worked for me in the ME3 ending, clearly didn't work for you.  That's cool.

It's just strange that creative works should fit within a set of rules.  That contradicts my impression of creativity, since creativity can (and often does) break accepted conventions.  Is it possible that people who study literary works maybe lose some appreciation of literary works?  Maybe they get too caught up in analyzing the rhyme and meter of the work?

The study of experimental literature is my life, whoa. It's my academic pursuit. I feel like stories are not restricted by techniques and styles that operate with a predefined narrative keystone. Guard that sentiment closely, man. Admire Ulysses. Make words free. Find meaning in watermelon sugar. Let adaptive storytelling veer off in new and profound and daring directions.

(P.S. Have you ever played "Killer7"?)

Modifié par optimistickied, 21 avril 2012 - 01:22 .

[SkaldFish]

RShara wrote...

Yes, the rules are open to interpretation, they're not a set of chains. Think of them as the railings around a tall staircase. They're there to help keep you from falling.

Interpretation wise, as the article says, in modern times, there's been a rising to a climax, only to have some sudden stumbling block that crashes the world down around the protagonist, then a "revelation" that raises the character back up, and the struggle to the top continues. A modern adaptation to an ancient guideline.

And they're rules because they work. Watch any movie that you like, read any book that you enjoy, and you will see this in action.

As I said, yes, someone sufficiently talented can break all of these rules, and create a wondrous and amazing piece of creativity that will revolutionize the medium.

But Mass Effect 3 is not that.

As a side note. Even creativity has rules. A painter has to use paint, and adhere to the rules governing the visible spectrum. He must have a medium and a subject. He also needs to be consistent in his work. I don't know that many people would enjoy, say, a landscape scene of excruciating detail and realism, and have a cartoon bunny standing in the middle of it.

Well put. Somehow a lot of people seem to have have been taught that creativity = subjective personal expression, end of story. Where did that come from?

Back in college, whenever we would complain about how those pesky Elements & Principles of Visual Design were limiting our creativity, our professor would always say the same thing. "OK, you show me you can consistently follow the rules and defend your use of them when I critique you, and you can start breaking them as much as you want. But don't be surprised if you're the only one who likes the result."