5087 réponses à ce sujet

[slyguy07]

Strange Aeons wrote...

The Wumpus wrote...

Mesmurae wrote...

All they know how to do is repeat 'Artistic Integrity' and point to the 75 review scores that EA paid for.

Honestly, if getting 75 review scores were as easy as paying for it, every publisher would do it. The reason they keep mentioning it is because they're proud of it, and they should be. It's a very rare feat; most games could only dream of those kinds of reviews.

The keep mentioning it because it's a selling point, and it's an easy way to deflect criticism that allows them to avoid the unenviable task of actually trying to defend the game's ending on its merits.  Of course, the appeal to authority only works when the voice of the authority is worth listening to.

Frankly, I think it says a lot more about the pathetic, juvenile state of game criticism than it does about ME3.

I  this!

[Siansonea]

Today I learned that you don't have to be a literature professor to know the ending is bad...but it sure helps.

[slyguy07]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

I guess that's why lit professors hardly ever make SPECTRE status. What a whiner.

How old are you? 9? No wait....7! Grow up and gtfo of the thread if you don't like it people disagree with you. I am inclined to believe you aren't competent enough to understand the points put forth with a statement likes yours.

[slyguy07]

RollaWarden wrote...

I have a feeling that there may be more lit professors (I've revealed more than once that I'm one) lurking on this forum who haven't come forward.  Part of the reason, I suspect, is that we want an argument’s merit to come from its objective quality, not from the prestige of the person making it.  I am continuously impressed by the quality of many arguments criticizing the endings, and applaud the posters.  Their arguments are no less valid than mine or any other professor who posts on this forum.

That said, I realize this is a far from perfect world.  Credentials matter more than they should.  If we scholars in the literary academic community could be consistent in our message, and articulate it consistently as well, perhaps we could do some good regarding the ME3 ending.  Maybe not, but at least we would have tried. 

I'm disappointed that such enormous potential for transcendence in storytelling through the medium of video games was squandered when (what I suspect happened--of course we can only speculate) the ugly corporate head of greed bulldozed creative development.  I had believed that in the ME series I was seeing a new level of interactive storytelling--the ascension of a new genre with production values, writing, and direction on par with any film, and transcending film through the interactive nature of video games.  Then in 10 minutes at the end of ME3, that potential died in three colors.  That's what saddens me the most: the wasted potential.  And now the artists are (forced?) to hide behind a wall of carefully planned PR statements and long palls of silence.  Worse still, our wholly justified and consistently accurate criticism of the endings has been twisted into yet another cynical marketing slogan.  Just a shame.

I'll tell all of you, fellow posters, what I tell my students, and what we've discussed in my fantasy literature class this semester.  Never give in.  Never surrender.  Hold the line.  Continue to stand united, in one voice, championing the achievement that the ME series has represented through 99% of the series, and the potential it still has.  That potential still exists if the artists on the ME3 development team can come to terms with what they did to the series, and what they can still do to correct it with this summer's DLC.

Hold the Line.

Since I've made a claim about what I do for a living, I'll sign my post.  Cheers, everyone.  Time to start prepping for my classes today.

Best,

Dan Reardon
Assistant Professor
Director of Composition
Department of English and Technical Communication
Missouri University of Science and Technology

Hear, hear!

[slyguy07]

Zeratul12 wrote...

whiner you can never comprehend the reapers

You.
Fail.
Troll.

[Cobra's_back]

bump great post

[-Spartan]

DoctorCrowtgamer wrote...

Sadly there seems to be a wall in video games that keeps game companies from hiring real writers who know about writing. There seems to be this idea that the people who program the games have to be the people who write them even if they know nothing about script writing and it strikes me as odd. I mean you don't see films or Tv letting the light sound and editing people write their scripts,they hire real writers. Why can't games hire real writers?

Some people with a background in writing are working in the industry. Shoot I figured that is why BW titles were so well done before. Now with that said, Cryptic hired not only a writer but a very famous one for its up and coming NWN coop title. They hired R. A. Salvatore. So we shall see... 

jkthunder wrote...

I'd also love to discuss the endings of RDM's BSG .... I also had the pleasure of having a nerdy screenwriting prof. with whom I would discuss such matters.

 
I would not mind it as well. BSG cost me a 50" LCD TV. 

Modifié par -Spartan, 25 avril 2012 - 01:16 .

[3DandBeyond]

The OP is the most brilliant I've seen to date. It explains the fatal flaws in the ending of ME3 as a story and as "art."

You nailed it-absolutely brilliant.

The end of that post sums it up:
"The obscurities in the ending of Mass Effect 3 have not been similarly earned by its prior narrative. This narrative has not until this point been about dominance, extermination, and the imposition of uniformity – indeed, Shepard has spent over a hundred hours of narrative fighting against precisely these three themes. And if one of these three (and only these three) options must be selected in order to sustain life in the universe, then that life has been so devalued by that act as to make the sacrifice meaningless."

He rightly states the fatal flaws in each of the 3 choices. Control is dominance, destroy is extermination, and synthesis is the imposition of uniformity. None of these is anything Shepard would have fought for or would have rallied all the forces to as a cause.

And I also love a good discussion, but there just must be something there that fits the context of the story.  There must be something there to discuss-appropriately, I mean.  Not just something sprung on people at the last moment.  I loved the Pinocchio analogy.  I view the glow boy (HJO) as this: it's like watching Star Wars (the original, A New Hope) and having Darth Vader as the antagonist.  Near the end of the film they pull a swicheroo and the antagonist is now Winnie the Pooh.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 25 avril 2012 - 01:16 .

[Garlador]

Flat out, there is no option in the game that isn't revolting to my eyes either. There is no player choice to avoid committing, in most sensible people's eyes, an atrocious war crime of a galactic magnitude.

That's the note the game ENDS on. The SERIES ends on.

And it's lame as hell.

[3DandBeyond]

Garlador wrote...

Flat out, there is no option in the game that isn't revolting to my eyes either. There is no player choice to avoid committing, in most sensible people's eyes, an atrocious war crime of a galactic magnitude.

That's the note the game ENDS on. The SERIES ends on.

And it's lame as hell.

Yes, it is revolting.  It makes people not want to replay the game, really all 3 games.  I felt that the love and care I had imparted along the way to even Legion-Legion who defied his programming and found a soul, and that I'd tried to use as a basis for advising EDI and Joker was all trashed.  I could no more kill the idea of what they had taught me (when I thought I was teaching them) as easily as you are meant to, than I could rip my own heart out of my chest.  But, this game expects me to do so without protest.

It's either that or I go against every fiber of my being and seek control or I do basically the same thing by stripping everyone of what makes them unique.  I create the end of evolution.  Now, that's a great idea.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 25 avril 2012 - 01:24 .

[MrPuschel]

Wish my english was good enough to round up things like this.

[edisnooM]

I really wish that there had been a "Get Mad" interrupt when the Catalyst says the Reapers are his.

Finally Sheperd is face to face with the source of all the suffering s/he has been through the past 3 years, and s/he can't even muster a scowl.

My Sheperd argued with Sovereign, stared Harbinger down defiantly on a hurtling asteroid, demanded answers from a dying reaper on Rannoch, and has proven himself to be the most thoroughly argumentative person I have ever seen, but in the eleventh hour, in front of the man behind the curtain, he chokes.

If the extended cut adds one thing, I want it to be able to argue, or at least rage against the dying of the light.

[-Spartan]

MrPuschel wrote...


Wish my english was good enough to round up things like this.

For what it is worth, as far as I'm concerned, feel free to voice your position in your native language. I'm willing to bet many if not most in this thread can communicate in more than one language. Shoot I would do my native then try to translate as best I could into English for the following paragraph - rinse, repeat.

[Kendar Fleetfoot]

Brilliant post, how can Bioware not see, read and understand just how badly they stuffed up the ending and not offer to re make it, it beggars belief. Even worse I have a friend who is a reviewer and his only answer to all the logical and intellectual arguments on the boards and in other media is that the majority of gamers are whiners and only want a happy, syrupy tripe ending which is just so untrue but which also seems to be Biowares sentiment.

[-Spartan]

Some current news articles about the debacle:

Publisher Entitlement Ignored Over Consumer Entitlement In Gaming Media <-- very good!

‘Mass Effect 3’ Ending: Protesters Funding 'M&M Campaign' To Encourage Bioware To Change Ending

Bioware's newest installation doesn't disappoint...until the bitter end

Jo Garcia: About that 'Mass Effect 3' ending

On a side note I'm not a modern sports fan at all but EA makes huge money from its sports titles so with that said I’m a little dazed after reading the prior article. An article about an RPG video game on a sports site – ESPN no less. Wow. Just wow…


And a tech section to boot! The times are changing it seems... 

Modifié par -Spartan, 25 avril 2012 - 02:57 .

[ahandsomeshark]

-Spartan wrote...

DoctorCrowtgamer wrote...

Sadly there seems to be a wall in video games that keeps game companies from hiring real writers who know about writing. There seems to be this idea that the people who program the games have to be the people who write them even if they know nothing about script writing and it strikes me as odd. I mean you don't see films or Tv letting the light sound and editing people write their scripts,they hire real writers. Why can't games hire real writers?

Some people with a background in writing are working in the industry. Shoot I figured that is why BW titles were so well done before. Now with that said, Cryptic hired not only a writer but a very famous one for its up and coming NWN coop title. They hired R. A. Salvatore. So we shall see... 

jkthunder wrote...

I'd also love to discuss the endings of RDM's BSG .... I also had the pleasure of having a nerdy screenwriting prof. with whom I would discuss such matters.

 
I would not mind it as well. BSG cost me a 50" LCD TV. 

I actually think the issue is less with quality writing and more with too many upper level execs interfering. The same issue is present in Hollywood, writers don't come up with ideas (unless you direct your own movies and manage to get backing by an act of God) producers do them hire writers to write them and then dictate what and how they write.

[Flammenpanzer]

-Spartan wrote...

Some current news articles about the debacle:

‘Mass Effect 3’ Ending: Protesters Funding 'M&M Campaign' To Encourage Bioware To Change Ending

Jo Garcia: About that 'Mass Effect 3' ending

On a side note I'm not a modern sports fan at all but EA makes huge money from its sports titles so with that said I’m a little dazed after reading the prior article. An article about an RPG video game on a sports site – ESPN no less. Wow. Just wow…


And a tech section to boot! The times are changing it seems... 

Someone is lying. No way women exist like that IRL.

[-Spartan]

ahandsomeshark wrote...

-Spartan wrote...

DoctorCrowtgamer wrote...

Sadly there seems to be a wall in video games that keeps game companies from hiring real writers who know about writing. There seems to be this idea that the people who program the games have to be the people who write them even if they know nothing about script writing and it strikes me as odd. I mean you don't see films or Tv letting the light sound and editing people write their scripts,they hire real writers. Why can't games hire real writers?

Some people with a background in writing are working in the industry. Shoot I figured that is why BW titles were so well done before. Now with that said, Cryptic hired not only a writer but a very famous one for its up and coming NWN coop title. They hired R. A. Salvatore. So we shall see... 

jkthunder wrote...

I'd also love to discuss the endings of RDM's BSG .... I also had the pleasure of having a nerdy screenwriting prof. with whom I would discuss such matters.

 
I would not mind it as well. BSG cost me a 50" LCD TV. 

I actually think the issue is less with quality writing and more with too many upper level execs interfering. The same issue is present in Hollywood, writers don't come up with ideas (unless you direct your own movies and manage to get backing by an act of God) producers do them hire writers to write them and then dictate what and how they write.

Went into that in another thread here. It was in reference to my post here. Maybe soon a balance which addresses artistic concern with investor interests and audience desires will be reached but given the general values in the US anymore it seems unlikely to happen any time soon.

Modifié par -Spartan, 25 avril 2012 - 02:45 .

[Xavendithas]

SkaldFish wrote...

Most importantly, though, what we actually see until the last few minutes of Shepard's story is that s/he stubbornly refuses to compromise his/her personal standards. Those standards might be very different for a renegade Shepard than they are for a paragon, but, as Sable Phoenix and others have pointed out, until the moment that magic platform raises Shepard up to meet the Catalyst, s/he perseveres in maintaining and acting according to those ideals no matter what obstacles s/he's faced.

I can't see that idealism was ever there to be lost. Instead, from the moment Shepard meets the Catalyst, the ability to act based on ideals is forcibly taken away. This strikes me as being as far removed from a "loss of idealism" theme as can be imagined.

This right here is the biggest reason I can't stop thinking that Indoctrination is what is occuring during these final few moments of the game.

It takes me right back to ME1 and how bad I felt for Saren when he realized that he was acting against his beliefs but, was powerless to do anything about it other than obey Soveriegn.

[ForgottenSpork]

This is great. I want your professor (or, for me, teacher, I guess)

[ShdwFox7]

Excellent OP. I find it equally astounding that Bioware continues to devalue their own narrative by imposing those last three options. I'm just crossing my fingers in hope that these statements about the ending not changing is a facade.

[ShdwFox7]

slyguy07 wrote...

RollaWarden wrote...

I have a feeling that there may be more lit professors (I've revealed more than once that I'm one) lurking on this forum who haven't come forward.  Part of the reason, I suspect, is that we want an argument’s merit to come from its objective quality, not from the prestige of the person making it.  I am continuously impressed by the quality of many arguments criticizing the endings, and applaud the posters.  Their arguments are no less valid than mine or any other professor who posts on this forum.

That said, I realize this is a far from perfect world.  Credentials matter more than they should.  If we scholars in the literary academic community could be consistent in our message, and articulate it consistently as well, perhaps we could do some good regarding the ME3 ending.  Maybe not, but at least we would have tried. 

I'm disappointed that such enormous potential for transcendence in storytelling through the medium of video games was squandered when (what I suspect happened--of course we can only speculate) the ugly corporate head of greed bulldozed creative development.  I had believed that in the ME series I was seeing a new level of interactive storytelling--the ascension of a new genre with production values, writing, and direction on par with any film, and transcending film through the interactive nature of video games.  Then in 10 minutes at the end of ME3, that potential died in three colors.  That's what saddens me the most: the wasted potential.  And now the artists are (forced?) to hide behind a wall of carefully planned PR statements and long palls of silence.  Worse still, our wholly justified and consistently accurate criticism of the endings has been twisted into yet another cynical marketing slogan.  Just a shame.

I'll tell all of you, fellow posters, what I tell my students, and what we've discussed in my fantasy literature class this semester.  Never give in.  Never surrender.  Hold the line.  Continue to stand united, in one voice, championing the achievement that the ME series has represented through 99% of the series, and the potential it still has.  That potential still exists if the artists on the ME3 development team can come to terms with what they did to the series, and what they can still do to correct it with this summer's DLC.

Hold the Line.

Since I've made a claim about what I do for a living, I'll sign my post.  Cheers, everyone.  Time to start prepping for my classes today.

Best,

Dan Reardon
Assistant Professor
Director of Composition
Department of English and Technical Communication
Missouri University of Science and Technology

Hear, hear!

second that

[3DandBeyond]

RollaWarden wrote...

I have a feeling that there may be more lit professors (I've revealed more than once that I'm one) lurking on this forum who haven't come forward.  Part of the reason, I suspect, is that we want an argument’s merit to come from its objective quality, not from the prestige of the person making it.  I am continuously impressed by the quality of many arguments criticizing the endings, and applaud the posters.  Their arguments are no less valid than mine or any other professor who posts on this forum.

That said, I realize this is a far from perfect world.  Credentials matter more than they should.  If we scholars in the literary academic community could be consistent in our message, and articulate it consistently as well, perhaps we could do some good regarding the ME3 ending.  Maybe not, but at least we would have tried. 

I'm disappointed that such enormous potential for transcendence in storytelling through the medium of video games was squandered when (what I suspect happened--of course we can only speculate) the ugly corporate head of greed bulldozed creative development.  I had believed that in the ME series I was seeing a new level of interactive storytelling--the ascension of a new genre with production values, writing, and direction on par with any film, and transcending film through the interactive nature of video games.  Then in 10 minutes at the end of ME3, that potential died in three colors.  That's what saddens me the most: the wasted potential.  And now the artists are (forced?) to hide behind a wall of carefully planned PR statements and long palls of silence.  Worse still, our wholly justified and consistently accurate criticism of the endings has been twisted into yet another cynical marketing slogan.  Just a shame.

I'll tell all of you, fellow posters, what I tell my students, and what we've discussed in my fantasy literature class this semester.  Never give in.  Never surrender.  Hold the line.  Continue to stand united, in one voice, championing the achievement that the ME series has represented through 99% of the series, and the potential it still has.  That potential still exists if the artists on the ME3 development team can come to terms with what they did to the series, and what they can still do to correct it with this summer's DLC.

Hold the Line.

Since I've made a claim about what I do for a living, I'll sign my post.  Cheers, everyone.  Time to start prepping for my classes today.

Best,

Dan Reardon
Assistant Professor
Director of Composition
Department of English and Technical Communication
Missouri University of Science and Technology

Amazing and at the core of the issue.

I see what happened as similar to the Geth AFTER Shepard.

Bioware gave Mass Effect a pulse.  Shepard gave it a face.  The other characters gave it a heart.  The players gave it a soul.  In the last few minutes of ME3 Bioware shot it in the head.  The creator rebelled against the created and then destroyed it.

[-Spartan]

3DandBeyond wrote...
[..]

Amazing and at the core of the issue.

I see what happened as similar to the Geth AFTER Shepard.

Bioware gave Mass Effect a pulse.  Shepard gave it a face.  The other characters gave it a heart.  The players gave it a soul.  In the last few minutes of ME3 Bioware shot it in the head.  The creator rebelled against the created and then destroyed it.

Poetic. Truly poetic. 

[drayfish]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Bioware gave Mass Effect a pulse.  Shepard gave it a face.  The other characters gave it a heart.  The players gave it a soul.

I heartilly agree with -Spartan.  Exquisitely said, 3DandBeyond.