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"All Were Thematically Revolting". My Lit Professor's take on the Endings. (UPDATED)


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#951
Warrior Craess

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The Wumpus wrote...

To be fair, developers don't "allow" publishers to set their deadlines, any more than any other sort of professional craftsman does. Hell, the reason the first Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy book ended so abruptly is because the publishers told Douglas Adams, "We're sending a guy over to pick up whatever you have. Finish the page you're on now."

Now, a lot of publishers do set unreasonable deadlines, and you can sometimes persuade a publisher to push theirs back -- which, in fact, someone did once for ME3, since the release date got pushed back from November to March -- but they're never happy about it, and you can't usually get a publisher to delay the same game twice. (Well, you can if you're 3DRealms, but that ended in tears.)


Actually Blizzard does just that all the time.  Not a single game of theirs has been released on the first or even second expected due date. 

#952
bc525

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Kunari801 wrote...

Well said, the highlights above parallel with my thoughts when I made my decision.  My Shepard's ultimate destiny was to accept he had to sacrifice some of his ideals, as well as his life, to reach his goal of stopping the Reapers.  Pausing to think I concluded that Synthesis and Control were both "no-go" for Shepard for the same reasons above, thus leaving Destroy.    

Funny our thoughts followed along the same paths but I did not like the endings. 


Just for the record, I don't believe in multiple playthroughs for analysis purposes.  When I speak of "my Shepard" I'm speaking about my first playthrough of ME1 + ME2 + ME3.  To me, that save file counts as my true reaction to the experience of the Mass Effect series, not a multiple playthrough where I've had time to analyze how I feel about certain key aspects.  I'm trying to discuss my gut reaction to each situation presented, most notably the ME3 ending situation.

Kunari801, I think our main character's had different thought processes regarding the Destroy option.

To me, your main character arrived at the Destroy choice more by a process of elimination.  The other options were so repulsive, that he/she was resigned to the last choice available.  The very decision itself was forced upon him/her.

My main character had a preconceived notion that Destroy was always going to be the choice, and that was basically confirmed when the other options were so repulsive.  It wasn't so much that the decision was forced upon him, but rather the decision was confirmed.  It wasn't Destroy that was forced upon him, but the acceptance of the collateral damage that came with Destroy.

Let me know if I've messed this up, but it seems like we had very different main characters that simply arrived at the same end solution.

#953
Arcamenel

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Kendar Fleetfoot wrote...

Brilliant post, how can Bioware not see, read and understand just how badly they stuffed up the ending and not offer to re make it, it beggars belief. Even worse I have a friend who is a reviewer and his only answer to all the logical and intellectual arguments on the boards and in other media is that the majority of gamers are whiners and only want a happy, syrupy tripe ending which is just so untrue but which also seems to be Biowares sentiment.


I'll speak for myself here but I DON'T WANT AN HAPPY ENDING!!! I just don't mind about that AT ALL!! All I want is for the story holes to be filled!!! and juste a lil' bit more information is all I'm asking


NO HAPPY ENDING, NO MORE STORY HOLES PLEASE!



no more story holes : like when Dr Kenson tells you that destroying a Mass Relay means the destruction of the ENTIRE cluster...and what are the waves doing???? You all know the answer........................................................................................

#954
Sable Phoenix

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CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Read any interview with Patrick Weekes or John Dombrow; they seem pretty together, writing-wise. I was at the PAX East panel, and the one thing I really got from it is that they are brilliant, they really thought about the character arcs they were responsible for (Wrex, Mordin, Tali), really needed to make sure that the characters made sense and had their own arcs. I doubt you feel that Tuchanka and Rannoc were poorly written, so it's not a lack of competent writers.

Something else happened, and I don't mean to imply any kind of corporate malfeasance or conspiracy. It could have been something as simple as a miscommunication somewhere in the writer's room, but somehow that well-oiled machine fell apart at the end.


Two words.

Mac Walters.

I know I probably bag on the guy too often, but come on.  When he took over as lead writer is exactly when Mass Effect started on its irrevocable downhill slope (I still can't forgive him for the narrative abortion that was the Lazarus Project).

#955
CulturalGeekGirl

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Warrior Craess wrote...

The Wumpus wrote...

To be fair, developers don't "allow" publishers to set their deadlines, any more than any other sort of professional craftsman does. Hell, the reason the first Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy book ended so abruptly is because the publishers told Douglas Adams, "We're sending a guy over to pick up whatever you have. Finish the page you're on now."

Now, a lot of publishers do set unreasonable deadlines, and you can sometimes persuade a publisher to push theirs back -- which, in fact, someone did once for ME3, since the release date got pushed back from November to March -- but they're never happy about it, and you can't usually get a publisher to delay the same game twice. (Well, you can if you're 3DRealms, but that ended in tears.)


Actually Blizzard does just that all the time.  Not a single game of theirs has been released on the first or even second expected due date. 


As someone who has worked in the industry, (note: never for Bioware) this Quora answer is the best thing written about software deadlines I have ever read.

It's the first answer to the question, the one by Michael Wolfe, about walking from San Francisco to Los Angeles.

It's a beautiful metaphor, it explains why this takes so long... but then, you might ask, why does stuff get pushed out by publishers before it's done?

Here's the dark secret. It's true for writing, it's true for painting, and it's true for game development: nothing is EVER done. Or to be more specific, it always feels like there's more to do, like it could be better. Learning to step back and declare it done is hard. If you tell a developer that they have unlimited time, they will never stop adding features. If left to their own devices, they'd add spaceship combat and a farming sim and ooh, ooh, one of the writers wants to create an entire alien language that directly coincides with sumerian glyphs. It'll take a little longer, but the payoff will be so great, you guys, especially to any linguistic archaeologists in our fanbase.

Deadlines help projects focus on the core experience. Ok, maybe we don't have time for the alien language to have complete grammar and seven distinct regional dialects. Maybe we axe the farming sim part. Do you really need fifty ways to leave your lover? I say cut it down to a tight five. Look guys, I know Trevor has a great idea for a card battle system, but we're due out in a year; maybe post launch? Put him on combat balance instead.

Now, does this mean games should just keep getting released when their deadline comes up, with the occasional six month reprieve? That's obviously not the solution either: see the walking to LA metaphor above. Here's what needs to happen: publishers need to have a team who know what progress looks like, know what feature complete looks like, and know what done looks like. That way they can say "bust your ass, we want this out in six months," but when they come back and there's a huge amount of progress but it's still not actually done, they can assess how much longer it's going to take and adjust.

The reason that can't work is... well... there are a few reasons.

One reason is... well... fans who complain about release date delays. Since my first game job, every time I hear a title delayed I think "good for them! Maybe they'll actually be able to finish their {Feature I really liked but nobody else probably cares about} and not have to cut it." I know you guys really really want to play that hot new sequel, I do too, but when the ME3 delay was announced and people were complaining I sat huddled in my chair, clenching and unclenching my hands. "You don't understand. NONE OF YOU UNDERSTAND."

The other reason is business deals. I have a friend who works on titles that are released on consoles. Let's say he's working on a title for the Atari Jaguar (Shut up. This is my hypothetical and I'lll do as I please.) Let's say the Jaguar really needs a 2D platformer to fill a hole in its roster in Q1 of 2012. His company could get money from Atari if they promise Q1, so they do. They also need to book a place to make the manuals and discs, and that needs to be scheduled too. Oh, and then there are retailers and international publishers and that guy who makes the maquettes (love that guy). All of these guys need at least a year's notice before launch, so they can get their ducks in a row, too.

"Ok then," you may ask, "why not just double all your estimates? It worked for Scotty."

Three reasons: technological advancement, the console cycle, and Joey.

Technological advancement is what killed Duke Nukem. They were working slow and steady on a heartbreaking FPS of staggering genius when FPS techonology made a huge leap forward... so they had to convert everything to the next new shiny engine and start over with that. Repeat until Forever.

Ever hear of a little game called Koudelka? Of course you haven't, and that's because of the console cycle. It's one of the last RPGs to be released for the original Playstation, and because of that nobody bought or played it. (Also, it had the clunkiest battle system in the history of time, but never mind that!) I could name you another hundred Japanese gems that flopped or that we never saw for similar reasons, and there are some american titles that share that fate as well. But if your game is going to take three years to produce, you can't predict whether or not there'll be a new console by the time you release.

And finally there's Joey. Joey wants a game that's like the last one he liked, but better. Joey expects every release to improve on the last one in every way. Joey thinks your graphics look a little... 2010. Joey thinks turn-based combat died in the aughts. Ok... Joey probably doesn't use the word "aughts," but you get my meaning. Joey expects full VO and free multiplayer... and every game that comes out before yours raises these expectations higher and higher.

So that's the conundrum: plan for the lifespan of your engine and your console, and plan for the market expectations by the time you launch, based on what other titles will come out between now and then. You can see why it behooves them to rush, occasionally.

So there you go. There's... all the things. About the stuff. All the problems. It's not an evil conspiracy, it's that our industry is just starting out. Thirty years ago, most games were made by one guy sitting alone coding and doing the animations himself. He was named Jordan Mechner, and we loved him. Since that stopped being how things got done, nobody knows how this is supposed to work. You could see the hunger in their eyes when they stared at Steve Jobs. "This guy" they were thinking "this guy always knows what to do. Why can't I be this guy?"

We have Blizzard with their battle cry of "when it's done," and we have Gabe Newell running his anarcho-cyndiclist utopia up in Washington, but those aren't models we can easily replicate. Everybody wants to make the best game, whether they're coding WB sit-com tie-ins or working on the next Halo. And a lot of good games are coming out. Often a game will come out and you will think "that is absolutely phenomenal." But nobody knows how to make sure that happens in a consistent way.

It's enough to make you want to get a fine arts degree and move to Australia.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 25 avril 2012 - 07:48 .


#956
Sable Phoenix

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SkaldFish wrote...

>snippage<

This is when I saw the Catalyst as a little translucent, lying absurdity. No event whose occurrence is completely dependent on sentient beings' freedom to choose can ever be predicted with absolute certainty. This logic holds no matter how many times the event has occurred in the past, because precedence is not a factor. Even if every prior cycle of organic evolution has resulted in a conflict between organic and synthetic in which organic life is threatened, this has no bearing -- NO BEARING -- on what might happen given a subsequent instance of that evolutionary process.

(Ironically, a non-biased analysis of the notion of a technological singularity supports this, because it only states that the event horizon of the singularity is something we can't see beyond. It in no way suggests the probability or inevitability of a conflict as a result. That suggestion was just the completely unscientific, fear-mongering drama that Vinge and others insisted on bolting on to the hypothesis.)


Ho!  Oh ho ho!  Why didn't I think of this before?

Something about what you just said here, Skald, just brought something very interesting to mind.  Science Fiction does, in fact, give us a picture of a post-singularity society.  Iain M. Banks' series of novels set in the Culture ("Excession" is the best one, but people new to the series really ought to start with "The Player of Games") detail a society which is benevolently run by AIs that exist partially in hyperspace and far outstrip the intelligence of any organic being.  But instead of destroying organic life, they cultivate it and coexist with it and protect it.  They oversee a vast sybaritic utopia in which people can take on any appearance they wish, switch at will between genders, live anywhere they fancy, engage in any activity that interests them at any time or place they choose to do so, and are effectively immortal (until they choose not to be)... all because synthetic life has outstripped organic life in every capacity.

A technological singularity doesn't necessitate apocalypse.  And as you said, the only reason that hasn't been proven in the Mass Effect universe is because the Reapers themselves prevent it.  All evidence points to Shepard's galactic society as one which would become a Culture, if left to its own devices.

Of course, it may be that this is exactly what the Reapers want to prevent, since even the smallest Culture ship could vaporize a Reaper in microseconds.

Modifié par Sable Phoenix, 25 avril 2012 - 07:32 .


#957
Keyrlis

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Kendar Fleetfoot wrote...

Brilliant post, how can Bioware not see, read and understand just how badly they stuffed up the ending and not offer to re make it, it beggars belief. Even worse I have a friend who is a reviewer and his only answer to all the logical and intellectual arguments on the boards and in other media is that the majority of gamers are whiners and only want a happy, syrupy tripe ending which is just so untrue but which also seems to be Biowares sentiment.


Your friend is one major source of the problem then: Incompetance allowed to flourish until it convinced itself of its own infalliability. Please, ask him for me just what his "professional" opinion was based on. Has he played the first two games? Did he play completely through this one, or just specific parts that were hyped in press releases? Does he actually have any credentials that give weight to his arguments (his job is NOT a credential: any employer can make mistakes)?
Also, though I am normally a peaceful man of reason, please give him the finger, and call him a "self-important fecal stain on the underwear of video gaming that places himself far higher on the ladder of judgement than he has right to".:devil: If he can so easily generalize players and make arrogant assumptions about people he doesn't know, then I can also be rudely dismissive of lesser intelligences using poor logic.

I am no whining, optimism-drenched fool, and reviewers that denigrade gamers to such status with ineffectual displays of their "talent" in print only prove the failure of gaming publications these days.
Give a fool the internet, and he thinks his opinion matters. I know better, which is why I post my opinions here rather than claiming any "professional" authority. No one in the public SEEKS my opinion, so I am only responsible to myself and my own beliefs in making decisions. Therefore, I also don't rely on official reviews. To claim to be a Professional Reviewer is like claiming to be a Corporate Defecation Expert: everyone does it, so what false pride makes you think your $#!t doesn't stink any more than mine? :huh:

Sorry for the wrath and bile-flinging here, but I have had WELL enough of being underestimated and dismissed by people (and companies) with the INCORRECT estimation of self-worth. Think I will quit posting here for a while until I cool off.:pinched:

I guess this is what Shepard felt like trying to convince the Citadel Council. More meta-gaming? Probably not.
I should have just let them suck vacuum.

#958
Seijin8

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My Commander Shepard thinks this is the best thread on BSN.

#959
Titus Thongger

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I like this professor. He understands!

#960
Eudaemonium

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CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Ever hear of a little game called Koudelka? Of course you haven't, and that's because of the console cycle. It's one of the last RPGs to be released for the original Playstation, and because of that nobody bought or played it. (Also, it had the clunkiest battle system in the history of time, but never mind that!) I could name you another hundred Japanese gems that flopped or that we never saw for similar reasons, and there are some american titles that share that fate as well. But if your game is going to take three years to produce, you can't predict whether or not there'll be a new console by the time you release. 


Koudelka was an amazing game and had the best music ever. Extra bonus points for making it uncompletable if you failed to pick up an easily missable item half-way through that you couldn't go back for once you discovered you needed it.

#961
Guest_Nyoka_*

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CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

My objection is that someone who thinks killing the Geth and/or Edi is fine has to sacrifice absolutely nothing. They've made it so that a satisfying, character-consistent ending is only available to one particular kind of player. I have seen hundreds and hundreds of players who don't give a crap about synthetics crowing about how the ending is great, with no consideration as to how people with different playstyles might feel. I agree with you that destroy feels appropriate coming from a large percentage of renegades, but it seems that very few of them lend any more consideration than "oh well, it's a tiny bit inconvenient" to the fact that they're killing all Synthetics.

Out of curiosity, did you kill the Geth because previous decisions had made it impossible to save both? If I hadn't had the peace option available, I'm honestly not certain which direction I would have gone. Knowing the endings now, I think I would have saved the Quarians and just gone destroy, if peace wasn't an option.

Paragons are being asked to die, compromise everything they stand for, and sacrifice every moral standard they have.

Renegades are being handed the ending of their dreams in a manner consistent with their worldview, and they get to live.


Whoa whoa. The ending as it is sucks for everyone, not only paragons. There's nothing satisfying or character consistent about space kid. It's not the ending of anyone's dreams.

I'm only talking about the idea of killing the geth alongside the reapers. The theme. All I was saying is this idea suits a Shepard who killed the rachni and all the colonists at Zhu's Hope, let the hostages die to catch Balak, and walked away from the factory workers on Zorya and killed Wrex. I think having the geth become individuals make the choice more difficult, because if destruction had been simply push the button and all the reapers die with no bad side effects (for example if the geth would have continued to be mindless mooks), it would have been the obvious choice and nobody would have even considered the other two. The side effect could have been the earth instead of the geth or something else. I'm not sure if the problem is that we're killing synthetics explicitly. Would have been better if the victims of destruction had been the turians, for example, or anyone else?

It's not that I'm fine killing whatever or that I don't give it consideration. I assure you renegade Shepard has a lot of ghosts visiting her at night and a lot to regret. It's simply that they happened to be in my way. This is the no taking chances mentality because the mission is too important. Now, I know that until now the games have offered us a way to accomplish everything without any bad consequences (the paragon path), but that's metagaming. When you're role playing a character you have to decide according to the information available, otherwise you couldn't have anti hero Shepard, only hero Shepard and evil monster "for the lulz" Shepard.

About your question, I killed the geth because:
- I need the quarians for the war.
- I can't trust the quarians (or anyone else) will behave in the war fighting alongside geth.
- Despite their previous differences, no geth means no more politicking about the geth. It guarantees all the quarians will be united and fighting for us.
- I know it makes no difference in the end, but Shepard doesn't.

#962
Kendar Fleetfoot

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-Spartan wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...
[..]

Amazing and at the core of the issue.

I see what happened as similar to the Geth AFTER Shepard.

Bioware gave Mass Effect a pulse.  Shepard gave it a face.  The other characters gave it a heart.  The players gave it a soul.  In the last few minutes of ME3 Bioware shot it in the head.  The creator rebelled against the created and then destroyed it.

Poetic. Truly poetic. :)


Brilliant

#963
Dnayew

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Wow.... and I thought it was cool one of my JUCO profs liked TNG.

#964
-Spartan

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A new article with a focus on the up coming "turn on/off" protest on Forbes can be read here.

Modifié par -Spartan, 25 avril 2012 - 06:34 .


#965
Dnayew

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-Spartan wrote...

A new article with a focus on the up coming "turn on/off" protest on Forbes can be read here.


Forbes is pretty cool. They're also one of the only mainstream publications to cover that one Repub politician who shall not be named.  Posted Image

#966
edisnooM

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Dnayew wrote...

-Spartan wrote...

A new article with a focus on the up coming "turn on/off" protest on Forbes can be read here.


Forbes is pretty cool. They're also one of the only mainstream publications to cover that one Repub politician who shall not be named.  Posted Image


It is odd that what I would think of as a business site has been the source of some of the most level headed articles on Mass Effect 3. Perhaps this is a sign of video games being accepted into polite society. :)

#967
-Spartan

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edisnooM wrote...

Dnayew wrote...

-Spartan wrote...

A new article with a focus on the up coming "turn on/off" protest on Forbes can be read here.


Forbes is pretty cool. They're also one of the only mainstream publications to cover that one Repub politician who shall not be named.  Posted Image


It is odd that what I would think of as a business site has been the source of some of the most level headed articles on Mass Effect 3. Perhaps this is a sign of video games being accepted into polite society. :)

It is odd to be sure but a welcome oddity nonetheless. This is especially so given the gaming news media industry for the most part has pretty much lost its credibility and of course supports the "party-line" accordingly it is nice to see such a respected outlet fighting the good fight. 

:D


On an unrelated side note: G4's Adam Sessler, the gaming "journalist" who labeled us as "whinny" and "entitled" and other such terms left G4 over a contract dispute. I guess he felt entitled to more money and G4 decided it would stick to its artistic integrity contract wise.  

Modifié par -Spartan, 26 avril 2012 - 01:46 .


#968
Seijin8

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bump for a fantastic thread

#969
Gtacatalina

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Made Nightwing wrote...

, I would like to explain why, when I was offered those three repellent choices, I turned and tried to unload my now infinite pistol into the whispy-space-ghost's face. 


I tried to do that toPosted Image

Posted Image

#970
3DandBeyond

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Worst, most disturbing side effect ever created in a video game-the desire to see some kid's (VI or not) destruction. Good job, Bioware.  For the record, I didn't want to only kill the vidkid.  I didn't care for the "real" one, either.  Of course, this is mostly due to the vidkid, but again, I'm trying to work it all out.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 26 avril 2012 - 02:26 .


#971
Wulfram

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Gtacatalina wrote...

Posted Image


"Hah, by shooting me you're only proving me right!  Conflict between Synthetics and Organics is inevitable!"

#972
3DandBeyond

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Wulfram wrote...

"Hah, by shooting me you're only proving me right!  Conflict between Synthetics and Organics is inevitable!"


Naw.  We have no connection to glo boy.  No created/creator thing.  I am trying to convince myself I imagined him since I can't shoot him.  If he's the ultimate in synthetic life, then I pick Destroy.  I don't want anymore glo babies.

#973
M0keys

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3DandBeyond wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

"Hah, by shooting me you're only proving me right!  Conflict between Synthetics and Organics is inevitable!"


Naw.  We have no connection to glo boy.  No created/creator thing.  I am trying to convince myself I imagined him since I can't shoot him.  If he's the ultimate in synthetic life, then I pick Destroy.  I don't want anymore glo babies.


Of course, there's no option to argue with the Starchild. Just, "Yes. You're right. It is inevitable."

#974
feliciano2040

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EnvyTB075 wrote...

"If I go to a concert, and pay top dollar to be entertained by the beautiful music of the orchestra therein, why would I be called a whiner when at the very end the musicians throw away their instruments and start playing death metal? Am I not entitled to expect the end to the concert to be what I have paid for?"


Guess what ***hole, not at all.

Their work, their time, their game, THEIR RULES.

#975
NoSpin

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feliciano2040 wrote...

EnvyTB075 wrote...

"If I go to a concert, and pay top dollar to be entertained by the beautiful music of the orchestra therein, why would I be called a whiner when at the very end the musicians throw away their instruments and start playing death metal? Am I not entitled to expect the end to the concert to be what I have paid for?"


Guess what ***hole, not at all.

Their work, their time, their game, THEIR RULES.


What if on the brochure it promises that at the conclusion the band will play a masterful collection of Mozart's best works. And then they don't. They advertised it and then didn't deliver. What then?