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"All Were Thematically Revolting". My Lit Professor's take on the Endings. (UPDATED)


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#76
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Made Nightwing wrote...

So, my lit professor and I are nerds. I throw in 'but the prize' references on my essays about Odysseus and Achilles, he throws in Firefly references in his lectures, we get on great. Now, I've previously mentioned that he disliked the endings, but today he gave me a full rundown on what exactly he found displeasing about the endgame:

"I don't get it. You get a choice between control. I just shot The Illusive Man five minutes ago because I said that we weren't ready for that power. Why on Earth isn't there an option to express how faulty that choice is? And then Destroy? Dammit, I just saved the geth and quarians, they're working together as a re-united race. Why is genocide an option? WHY? And then Synthesis just completely mistakes everything about evolution. There is no apex of evolution, we continue to adapt and move forward or we die. Aside from that, I'm forcing a choice on the entire galaxy, without the option to tell the damn thing to go to hell! All three endings were so entirely removed from the themes of the whole series that they were completely unrecognisable! It's like Casey had just finished playing Deus Ex and Mac had just watcched teh season finale of BSG."

"If I'm going to speak about 'artistic integrity', I will be compelled to point out that the ending was in no way the artistic vision of the team. BW has already stated that the ending was thought up between Casey and Mac, without any part of the peer review process being consulted. It was not a product of the team, but individuals. Aside from that, saying that artistic integrity forbids them from changing the ending is ridiculous. Many novelists have re-written entire works because of negative feedback on them. Charles Dickens wrote Oliver Twist in chapters, publishing each one as they went, and each chapter would be based on the feedback that he got for that chapter. Conan Doyle brought Holmes back from the dead. Those are just wo examples, there are many more. BW broke their own artistic integrity when they allowed EA to set their deadline. Now there are many things that you can say about ME1, but you can never say that it was rushed. The graphics were glitchy, sure, but the characters and dialogue were finely polished."

"In conclusion, I must say again that all the endings were thematically revolting. It is absolutely critical in the name of good writing that the ending of a story must match the journey. Mass Effect has never been a story about the disparity between synthetics and organics. As a matter of fact, it has been quite the obvious. For three games, BW has hinted and pointed out that life could be so much more greater and mysterious than the organic perception. It's driven the point home, time and time again, that unity is possible. So why, then, at the very end of a series that has clearly been about unity and co-existence, would they end it with the point that different forms of life simply cannot co-exist unless their diversity is totally stripped away? It makes no sense. Furthermore, it is emotionally crushing that all this hope of co-existence that has been built up from the quarian-geth storyline  (Geth Prime:...and then we will help you rebuild your world.) is suddenly yanked away at the last second. Good day."

Dr. C. Dray.

Highlighting things are fun.

Anyone for the first highlight we have conformation that it was indeed a two man show and not just the rampant speculation based from a posting on Penny Arcade?

The second point while your proffesor has a point he is complete ignoring EA's right to set that date. Maybe he may not fully understand that relationship, between developer and publisher/owner, maybe he does and he has a valid point. I just find that an odd premiss for an eglish proffesor to hold and to form a bias on that by evidence isn't exactly a strong arguement.

As much as I want to agree or disagree with this statement I won't, more so that your proffesor isn't here to state his own opinions and ideas. I will simply say that in ME1 the dichotomy of the synthetic vs organic relationship in the galaxy isn't heavily noted but is presented in the game. ME2 has a more sustained tone of it but it isn't relatively noticable based on the precession of information the player recieves and when that information is given, say for example, when retrieving the Reaper IFF. And well, ME3 had a pretty heavy dose of it.

The italicized is done because thats an emotional response to an aspect of development. And isn't symbotic with the actual story of ME but rather a player generated choice.

Off topic:
Masking an opinion as a English Lit proffesor because it may or may not give your arguements some form of subsatnce is poor form. And I say that because if there was an actual English Lit masters degree behind the information you are posting you wouldn't be relying on information used evidentiary that is readibly and easily located on these forms by those that are "Anti-Enders".

Either way have a nice day.

#77
Mesmurae

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incinerator950 wrote...

Mesmurae wrote...

daecath wrote...

Just once, I would like to hear someone from BioWare DIRECTLY defend against these kinds of arguments. Not just throw out "artistic vision" as if it were some kind of divine edict that must not be touched. I want to hear them explain just what that vision is, how it fits into the themes from the rest of the game, and why they used the Totally Utterly Ridiculous Deus ex machina.

And if they can't, then we kindly suggest that they stop working on the "clarification" DLC - because it will be obvious that they won't be able to clarify it if they can't even explain it - and start working on a real ending.

You'll never get anyone from BioWare to give a real answer to these questions. All they know how to do is repeat 'Artistic Integrity' and point to the 75 review scores that EA paid for.

It's not their job to.  Be thankful Bioware takes the time to pretend or actually talk back with people.  Most game companies for years were silent, in the dark. 

I've played with Dev teams from both Section 8 and Dead Space, there are limits to what they're allowed to say, and how much they can give away.

Also, Dev teams suck at playing their own games, I don't know why this is the case.

I know BioWare has to be on a tight leash, but I'd rather hear nothing from them than the garbage PR statements they've given so far. It just seems insulting.

#78
Greed1914

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Zix13 wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

He misses the point of an impossible choice.


I think you missed the point of Shepards existance. 


Agreed.  They make a point of how Shepard makes the impossible, well, possible.  This is a character who, as Joker puts it, ended a war by yelling.  And someone who helps patch old hatreds resulting from centuries of animosity.  Shepard has even come out of suicide missions, which would otherwise be considered impossible. 



I'll also especially agree with something that is in the original post.  When discussing themes, it's clear that there is a theme of strength through diversity and working together that is utterly frustrated by the ending.  Just look at the main goal of ME3.  Gather the aid of the various races because humans can't do this alone.  Or look a the crew of the Normandy.  It's strengthened by the presence of various representatives of various races with different ideals, beliefs, cultures, and skills.  Heck, even Javik states that the Reapers were able to exploit the homogeneity of the Prothean empire. 

None of the 3 options support this.  All are based on the inevitability that we can't get along with synthetics, despite our efforts.  Destroy asks us to commit genocide based on this unsupported idea.  Control asks us to side with the man we just condemned for being crazy based on this idea.  Synthesis asks us to remove diversity and bring everyone to the "apex" of evolution.  I'm just utterly confused how this could not be seen by the people that wrote the ending, and it really makes me believe that it was not subjected to the same peer review that generated the rest of the awesomeness that was this series.

Modifié par Greed1914, 16 avril 2012 - 06:17 .


#79
Sc2mashimaro

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RaenImrahl wrote...

Zix13 wrote...

It will also be be an example of how not to do PR. 


Indeed.  I can see the game and its ending being examined from a public/media relations standpoint - how did they handle the reaction?

--from a literary standpoint, like the OP's professor - what were the themes of the narrative and how were they enacted?
--from a rhetorical standpoint - were the developer's arguments (within the game) effective?
-- or from a media perspective - did the developers achieve and effectively use of the medium of the action/RPG video game? (that's my take)


I think it would make great examples for all of these things.

Bioware/EA should hire some Murrow College (WSU) grads for their PR team. I'm in the Broadcasting side of the Communication College and I could see the PR falling-downs right away. Also, I'm glad you both can see this is a PR failure not "standard PR lies and manipulations" - people on this forum probably shouldn't be allowed to say "PR" (it does not mean what they think it means...). Merizan is one of the few stand-out communicators on the Bioware team, but I think she needs some back-up... glad I'm not in charge of communication and public relations at Bioware, sounds like a hard job right now!

#80
The Wumpus

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Mesmurae wrote...

All they know how to do is repeat 'Artistic Integrity' and point to the 75 review scores that EA paid for.


Honestly, if getting 75 review scores were as easy as paying for it, every publisher would do it. The reason they keep mentioning it is because they're proud of it, and they should be. It's a very rare feat; most games could only dream of those kinds of reviews.

#81
pipemaster9000

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UnstableMongoose wrote...

ShepnTali wrote...

UnstableMongoose wrote...

Saying that ME1 wasn't rushed is absolutely hilarious, and the insinuation that EA stole BioWare's integrity is somewhat...problematic in terms of presentation. Can't say I agree with your lit professor.

What's your counter on his take on the theme shift, his main point?


I would counter that no thematic shift occurred. Everything that happened was foreshadowed.


No it wasn't, in ME3 Indoctrination is heavily foreshadowed. Dark Matter in ME2. You must be an EA-troll :whistle:

#82
incinerator950

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I've known for a while you have to take what the Dev's say with a grain of salt. Especially after Fable 1. Hence why I never listened in on sequel games, anything I wanted usually came out on its own, or didn't.

I miss Timesplitters :(

#83
Kenshen

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FirstCitizen800 wrote...

Lol, Charles Dickens and Sir Authur Conan Doyle are obviously hacks in comparison to (cough) and company. No doubt, people will be playing Mass Effect 100 years from now when those other two names are nothing but dust. Please pass the crack.


I need that gif of Fry saying "Not sure if serious"

#84
Mesmurae

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Opsrbest wrote...

Highlighting things are fun.



I laughed and stopped reading there

#85
FatalX7.0

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Mesmurae wrote...

incinerator950 wrote...

Mesmurae wrote...

daecath wrote...

Just once, I would like to hear someone from BioWare DIRECTLY defend against these kinds of arguments. Not just throw out "artistic vision" as if it were some kind of divine edict that must not be touched. I want to hear them explain just what that vision is, how it fits into the themes from the rest of the game, and why they used the Totally Utterly Ridiculous Deus ex machina.

And if they can't, then we kindly suggest that they stop working on the "clarification" DLC - because it will be obvious that they won't be able to clarify it if they can't even explain it - and start working on a real ending.

You'll never get anyone from BioWare to give a real answer to these questions. All they know how to do is repeat 'Artistic Integrity' and point to the 75 review scores that EA paid for.



It's not their job to.  Be thankful Bioware takes the time to pretend or actually talk back with people.  Most game companies for years were silent, in the dark. 

I've played with Dev teams from both Section 8 and Dead Space, there are limits to what they're allowed to say, and how much they can give away.

Also, Dev teams suck at playing their own games, I don't know why this is the case.

I know BioWare has to be on a tight leash, but I'd rather hear nothing from them than the garbage PR statements they've given so far. It just seems insulting.


It is insulting.

Bioware has been making it out that we're too stupid to understand their ripped-off artsy ending and that everything is our fault.

Modifié par FatalX7.0, 16 avril 2012 - 06:12 .


#86
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I didn't even read your post OP but damn! It's so hard to find a teacher/professor who doesn't hold that ridiculous stereotype about video games that my teacher seems to have.

#87
FatalX7.0

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aryon69 wrote...

FirstCitizen800 wrote...

Lol, Charles Dickens and Sir Authur Conan Doyle are obviously hacks in comparison to (cough) and company. No doubt, people will be playing Mass Effect 100 years from now when those other two names are nothing but dust. Please pass the crack.


I need that gif of Fry saying "Not sure if serious"




It's not a gif. Gifs are animated.

You could just google it.
Image IPB

#88
MegumiAzusa

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incinerator950 wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

He misses the point of an impossible choice.


A lot of people do, but the point he raised actually makes sense, and I for one stopped playing ME years ago just for the story or character.

He makes some good points, yes, but still misses what it's about, the impossible choice, if he had stated BW didn't very well picture it I would have agreed. As long as he doesn't do that I'm still saying that he had missed the point of the ending.
As the Guardian said: the choice is yours. Now you have to choose from 3 choices with all having bad sides to them, you cannot choose right in this one. Hints that the final choice will be one are throughout the games. Also most of the other choices are to prepare you for one final choice, it's completely a matter of perspective.
For example saving Maelons data is first the renegade choice in ME2, but after you choose it Mordin explains why it is the right thing to do, and later in ME3 it's the only way to save Eve.

Modifié par MegumiAzusa, 16 avril 2012 - 06:19 .


#89
Strange Aeons

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The Wumpus wrote...

Mesmurae wrote...

All they know how to do is repeat 'Artistic Integrity' and point to the 75 review scores that EA paid for.


Honestly, if getting 75 review scores were as easy as paying for it, every publisher would do it. The reason they keep mentioning it is because they're proud of it, and they should be. It's a very rare feat; most games could only dream of those kinds of reviews.


The keep mentioning it because it's a selling point, and it's an easy way to deflect criticism that allows them to avoid the unenviable task of actually trying to defend the game's ending on its merits.  Of course, the appeal to authority only works when the voice of the authority is worth listening to.

Frankly, I think it says a lot more about the pathetic, juvenile state of game criticism than it does about ME3.

Modifié par Strange Aeons, 16 avril 2012 - 06:15 .


#90
UnstableMongoose

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pipemaster9000 wrote...

UnstableMongoose wrote...

ShepnTali wrote...

UnstableMongoose wrote...

Saying that ME1 wasn't rushed is absolutely hilarious, and the insinuation that EA stole BioWare's integrity is somewhat...problematic in terms of presentation. Can't say I agree with your lit professor.

What's your counter on his take on the theme shift, his main point?


I would counter that no thematic shift occurred. Everything that happened was foreshadowed.


No it wasn't, in ME3 Indoctrination is heavily foreshadowed. Dark Matter in ME2. You must be an EA-troll :whistle:


Ummmm.....I'm not really certain what to make of what you're trying to say. A big, centralized galactic structure for controlling Dark Matter played heavily into the ending of ME3, and so did the process of Indoctrination.

The themes of sacrifice, inevitability, and risking everything on the unknown results of firing the Crucible were well-established throughout the course of ME3. I'm not sure how anything you said refutes my point.

#91
Sc2mashimaro

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incinerator950 wrote...

Also, Dev teams suck at playing their own games, I don't know why this is the case.


I would posit there are two reasons for that:

(a) They spend most of their time making and creating the game. Their goal is not to be good at the game, but to be good at creating the experience of the game.

(B) Their minds limit themselves to the constraints they imagine when creating the game. Similar to all artists and writers, when you create something you see it the way YOU see it and it's hard to step outside of the boundaries you create to facilitate that creation to see it in another light. It's an important skill to develop, but a hurdle that you can never entirely overcome. In video games, this also means it's hard to step outside of how you imagine the mechanics SHOULD work to see how they might be used in more, sometimes overly-effective (broken) ways.


Edit: I should also say that I don't think that Dev teams actually suck at their own games.... but they may not be as good as the REALLY hard core gamers. For example, most of the Blizzard team seems to play at a high diamond low masters level of SC2, but that doesn't make them "bad" at the game.

Modifié par Sc2mashimaro, 16 avril 2012 - 06:17 .


#92
Zix13

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Sc2mashimaro wrote...

RaenImrahl wrote...

Zix13 wrote...

It will also be be an example of how not to do PR. 


Indeed.  I can see the game and its ending being examined from a public/media relations standpoint - how did they handle the reaction?

--from a literary standpoint, like the OP's professor - what were the themes of the narrative and how were they enacted?
--from a rhetorical standpoint - were the developer's arguments (within the game) effective?
-- or from a media perspective - did the developers achieve and effectively use of the medium of the action/RPG video game? (that's my take)


I think it would make great examples for all of these things.

Bioware/EA should hire some Murrow College (WSU) grads for their PR team. I'm in the Broadcasting side of the Communication College and I could see the PR falling-downs right away. Also, I'm glad you both can see this is a PR failure not "standard PR lies and manipulations" - people on this forum probably shouldn't be allowed to say "PR" (it does not mean what they think it means...). Merizan is one of the few stand-out communicators on the Bioware team, but I think she needs some back-up... glad I'm not in charge of communication and public relations at Bioware, sounds like a hard job right now!


I think the issue is that EA has forgotten what PR means, as a lot of companies seem to have done. It doesn't take more than a little bit of common sense to recognize the errors they've made.

#93
incinerator950

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FatalX7.0 wrote...

Bioware has been making it out that we're too stupid to understand their ripped-off artsy ending and that everything is our fault.


Unfortunately, they're right.  A lot of people here were stupid enough to go along with several false pretenses from this marketing, to the actual execution for the last six years.  

I wouldn't go so far to say it's the consumers fault, but their marketing succeeding in laying down a lovely web that a lot of people fell into.  

#94
Zix13

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The Wumpus wrote...

Mesmurae wrote...

All they know how to do is repeat 'Artistic Integrity' and point to the 75 review scores that EA paid for.


Honestly, if getting 75 review scores were as easy as paying for it, every publisher would do it. The reason they keep mentioning it is because they're proud of it, and they should be. It's a very rare feat; most games could only dream of those kinds of reviews.


EA has a lot of money, but seriously, several of the review sites are sponsored by publishers, and are only going to continue getting paid as long as they keep giving good reviews.

Modifié par Zix13, 16 avril 2012 - 06:17 .


#95
Vorodill

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ZiegenkonigIII wrote...

FatalX7.0 wrote...

Vorodill wrote...

Your professor has no right to say that. Mass Effect story is Bioware's property and they can do whatever they like with it. You guys don't have to like it, but it is what it is. You still want to whine about it? They are even giving you an ending DLC because your brains couldn't understand the end of the game. I'm tired of people like you. Close your web browser and move on.

And most importantly... nah, forget what I just said. I just read what I wrote and it looks like sh**. Don't stop criticizing the game! After all, they listen to your feedback! :D


This post is redonkulous.


It confused me, perhaps because I am tired.



I was making a joke. I am holding the line. :D

Great theory. We no longer have to worry about many things...

Modifié par Vorodill, 16 avril 2012 - 06:16 .


#96
Kenshen

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FatalX7.0 wrote...

aryon69 wrote...

FirstCitizen800 wrote...

Lol, Charles Dickens and Sir Authur Conan Doyle are obviously hacks in comparison to (cough) and company. No doubt, people will be playing Mass Effect 100 years from now when those other two names are nothing but dust. Please pass the crack.


I need that gif of Fry saying "Not sure if serious"




It's not a gif. Gifs are animated.

You could just google it.
Image IPB


It is late and I am tired.  Thank you for doing what I was too lazy to do.

#97
DarthSyphilis59

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great post!

#98
FatalX7.0

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aryon69 wrote...

FatalX7.0 wrote...

aryon69 wrote...

FirstCitizen800 wrote...

Lol, Charles Dickens and Sir Authur Conan Doyle are obviously hacks in comparison to (cough) and company. No doubt, people will be playing Mass Effect 100 years from now when those other two names are nothing but dust. Please pass the crack.


I need that gif of Fry saying "Not sure if serious"




It's not a gif. Gifs are animated.

You could just google it.
Image IPB


It is late and I am tired.  Thank you for doing what I was too lazy to do.


I'm tired too.

#99
incinerator950

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Sc2mashimaro wrote...

incinerator950 wrote...

Also, Dev teams suck at playing their own games, I don't know why this is the case.


I would posit there are two reasons for that:

(a) They spend most of their time making and creating the game. Their goal is not to be good at the game, but to be good at creating the experience of the game.

(B) Their minds limit themselves to the constraints they imagine when creating the game. Similar to all artists and writers, when you create something you see it the way YOU see it and it's hard to step outside of the boundaries you create to facilitate that creation to see it in another light. It's an important skill to develop, but a hurdle that you can never entirely overcome. In video games, this also means it's hard to step outside of how you imagine the mechanics SHOULD work to see how they might be used in more, sometimes overly-effective (broken) ways.


If you make something, you should be one of the best at utilizing it.  Don't want to remember how hard I laughed when the GoW1 Team were appalled at what you basically said. 

So yeah, you do have a point.

#100
FatalX7.0

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Vorodill wrote...

ZiegenkonigIII wrote...

FatalX7.0 wrote...

Vorodill wrote...

Your professor has no right to say that. Mass Effect story is Bioware's property and they can do whatever they like with it. You guys don't have to like it, but it is what it is. You still want to whine about it? They are even giving you an ending DLC because your brains couldn't understand the end of the game. I'm tired of people like you. Close your web browser and move on.

And most importantly... nah, forget what I just said. I just read what I wrote and it looks like sh**. Don't stop criticizing the game! After all, they listen to your feedback! :D


This post is redonkulous.


It confused me, perhaps because I am tired.



I was making a joke. I am holding the line. :D

Great theory. We no longer have to worry about many things...


Absolutely redonkulous.