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"All Were Thematically Revolting". My Lit Professor's take on the Endings. (UPDATED)


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#976
Gtacatalina

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M0keys wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

"Hah, by shooting me you're only proving me right!  Conflict between Synthetics and Organics is inevitable!"


Naw.  We have no connection to glo boy.  No created/creator thing.  I am trying to convince myself I imagined him since I can't shoot him.  If he's the ultimate in synthetic life, then I pick Destroy.  I don't want anymore glo babies.


Of course, there's no option to argue with the Starchild. Just, "Yes. You're right. It is inevitable."


I just remember thinking this can't be right with the Red-Green-Blue endings, and then I thought back to the bad dreams with the kid, and thinking maybe it's some form of possible mind control, and therefore I had to kill the VI kid!

I don't know I was extremely confused at the time, well I supose I still amPosted Image

#977
richard_rider

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feliciano2040 wrote...

EnvyTB075 wrote...

"If I go to a concert, and pay top dollar to be entertained by the beautiful music of the orchestra therein, why would I be called a whiner when at the very end the musicians throw away their instruments and start playing death metal? Am I not entitled to expect the end to the concert to be what I have paid for?"


Guess what ***hole, not at all.

Their work, their time, their game, THEIR RULES.


Not really, their work, their time, our rules.

They are in the business of being in business, they create games for consumers, not for themselves.

The customer is not always right, in fact the customer is usually an a**hole, but the customer is the one you create your product for, you cater your product to, and hopefully sell your product to.

Modifié par richard_rider, 26 avril 2012 - 03:43 .


#978
M0keys

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feliciano2040 wrote...

EnvyTB075 wrote...

"If I go to a concert, and pay top dollar to be entertained by the beautiful music of the orchestra therein, why would I be called a whiner when at the very end the musicians throw away their instruments and start playing death metal? Am I not entitled to expect the end to the concert to be what I have paid for?"


Guess what ***hole, not at all.

Their work, their time, their game, THEIR RULES.


"Then upon their heads be it."

#979
Devil Mingy

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Nyoka wrote...

I'm only talking about the idea of killing the geth alongside the reapers. The theme. All I was saying is this idea suits a Shepard who killed the rachni and all the colonists at Zhu's Hope, let the hostages die to catch Balak, and walked away from the factory workers on Zorya and killed Wrex. I think having the geth become individuals make the choice more difficult, because if destruction had been simply push the button and all the reapers die with no bad side effects (for example if the geth would have continued to be mindless mooks), it would have been the obvious choice and nobody would have even considered the other two. The side effect could have been the earth instead of the geth or something else. I'm not sure if the problem is that we're killing synthetics explicitly. Would have been better if the victims of destruction had been the turians, for example, or anyone else?


This, in my opinion, is one of the main reasons why the ending failed. It feels like Destroy only kills EDI and the Geth simply to balance it and make Synthesis look better. I'll probably be assuming a lot of things in the next few paragraphs. You can agree or disagree, but this is the interpretation I got based on the leaked script and the ending I saw.

First, I am assuming that, like in the leaked script, Synthesis is supposed to be the "perfect" ending. It's loaded with symbolism, presents a broad and profound idea, and is given the Catalyst's seal of approval as the most recommended method to end the cycle. I am also going to assume that the Catalyst is supposed to be taken at his word. Shepard doesn't question the Catalyst because we, as the player, are not suppose to question him. A few recent tweets from Mike Gamble also seem to imply that we were not meant to see Synthetic life as equals in this galaxy, which would give the Catalyst a bit of merit.

Going from this, the purpose of the Catalyst was to humanize the Reapers and portray them as a force for good against this inevitable conflict between creator and creation. They would be sympathetic, as they were in the original ending involving Dark Energy (I'll talk about this more in a bit).

If the Reapers are to be seen as a necessary evil whose actions are the sole reason we even have a galaxy to save, then Destroy suddenly doesn't look so good. Not only does it not solve the problem, it elminates the only hope to stop it and would force the galaxy to come up with their own solution before it's too late.

Control is an interesting choice, in that Shepard would assume control of the Reapers and use them as he wishes. In this ending, Shepard doesn't believe that the Catalyst's methods are correct, but that the Reapers are still needed because the problem itself is still very real (and unresolved).

This leaves Synthesis as the "true" ending. It would resolve the problem by eliminating the source of the conflict: that organic and synthetic life are different. The Reapers remain around as a failsafe, but the cycle itself is over because there is no reason to harvest and kill anymore. Synthesis would present a utopia with organics and synthetics living in perfect harmony and would presumably have no reason to create any more synthetic life in the future (or, if they did, it'd already be fully evolved or something... no idea if natural life would also come out fully evolved, too... Synthesis is really messy).

Now, according to the interwebs, the original idea for the Reapers' ultimate motive is that Dark Energy, the foundation of the entire society in Mass Effect, is going to kill us all and that the harvesting of organic life every 50,000 years to produce a new Reaper is what stops it. Now, regardless on the logic behind the idea (personally, I don't think it's much better than the ending we got; it's just better foreshadowed), this ending would also present us with two outcomes: Destroy the Reapers and come up with a way to stop Dark Energy on our own or help the Reapers by going along with their plan.

What's interesting about this idea is that I could really see my Shepard having a hard time deciding which to do based soley on the morality of the situation. The idea gives the Reapers enough sympathy for me to see their side of the story. Naturally, this is assuming that Dark Energy's detrimental effects on the galaxy would be well stated beforehand, which might be too much to ask given how much attention was paid to this Singularity idea. Not to mention that the ramifications of destroying the Reapers would have to be somewhat immediate if the effect is to be meaningful (say 50 years before it kills us all). After all, it's really hard to make the player care about people we do not and will never know. It'd be like asking me to murder my family if it meant people would be better off in 5 generations. 

This is why I think they needed to kill the Geth and EDI to make Synthesis look better. The ending we got doesn't give the Reapers any sympathy. In fact, what the Catalyst says tends to contradict what most Shepards see throughout the series. We have no reason to believe him, and therefore have no reason to believe in his problem or his solutions. I think Bioware knew this to an extent, and that is why the deck is stacked against Destroy. Alternatively, perhaps they decided to kill all synthetic life simply because they didn't think we would care about them, and would see it as a small benefit in a post-Reaper galaxy that may not be in shape to fight a potentially hostile Geth.

Modifié par Devil Mingy, 26 avril 2012 - 07:42 .


#980
operageek

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Devil Mingy wrote...


...

This leaves Synthesis as the "true" ending. It would resolve the problem by eliminating the source of the conflict: that organic and synthetic life are different. The Reapers remain around as a failsafe, but the cycle itself is over because there is no reason to harvest and kill anymore. Synthesis would present a utopia with organics and synthetics living in perfect harmony and would presumably have no reason to create any more synthetic life in the future (or, if they did, it'd already be fully evolved or something... no idea if natural life would also come out fully evolved, too... Synthesis is really messy).


This isn't highly relevant to your overall post (which I think makes a very good point) but I found that your use of the phrase "eliminating the source" has allowed me to put into words the reason that I found synthesis such an undesirable option - it implies that the "source" of their conflict is purely biological, and can be fixed by re-writing DNA.  That's a deeply troubling premise, and totally devalues EDI and Legion's wonderfully written interpersonal relationships and cultural experiences and the way this shaped their subsequent self-determination/actualization.

Really enjoying reading what everyone has to say here, catching up on this thread has been a great read.

#981
-Spartan

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Some recent passages on the issue(s) at hand:

Big Shiny Robot
Mass Effect 3's True Ending DLC Was Never Supposed To Be Free?
Redheaded Stepchildren: How Far Can You Stretch Copyright?



BTW: Just in case you missed in my prior post since I think it is poetic justice....

On an unrelated side note: G4's Adam Sessler, the gaming "journalist" who labeled us as "whinny" and "entitled" and other such terms left G4 over a contract dispute. I guess he felt entitled to more money and G4 decided it would stick to its artistic integrity contract wise.

#982
drayfish

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delta_vee wrote:
There's an older work of Orson Scott Card, long before he jumped headlong into hateful senility, called The Worthing Saga. One of the stories concerned a strategy game of sorts (think Civ on a grand scale, but followed intently by spectators, with the winner given some measure of fame and fortune), where the character (Abner Doon) bribes his way into taking over his grandfather's game. The grandfather is about to win, as thoroughly as has ever been done. Doon, though, begins sabotaging the game. Not just errors and missteps, not the kind of damage which would be a setback to be overcome later, but a complete destruction. When Doon is done, the faction he controlled was wiped out completely from the face of the game world.

The grandfather asks his grandson, why? Doon replies that if the game had simply been won, it would have faded away. Now its rise and fall will be studied forever.

@delta_vee
 
For people also keen to look at this whole situation from a meta-fictional perspective, that reference (as it did for me) will no doubt give them chills.  Nicely done.

Modifié par drayfish, 27 avril 2012 - 01:26 .


#983
drayfish

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I'm sure everyone feels the same, but I am finding more and more (on all sides of these fruitful debates), that there are some simply startling lines, with truly piercing description, being written in this thread. Lines that I really wish that I'd said. Curse you all, you insightful, brilliant bastards!
 
Between all the intelligent, impassioned responses from people engaging with the themes, structure and character arcs of the work – not to mention CulturalGeekGirl's evocative prose and unique window into the whole scripting and production process of videogames as a clearly talented writer (I knew you were a writer: you big think write word too good) – I feel like a kid who has stepped into the wrong room at a swishy party. Suddenly I'm surrounded by the bustle of charming grown-ups, but I'm too enthralled by the glistening conversation to back out again and return to the playroom, where my charged-up biotic waits idle.
 
I've heard reasoned and illuminating references to Camus, Ed Wood, Kant, Nabikov, Clarke, Brecht, Beckett, Stein, Salinger, Bret Easton Ellis, Dexter, Firefly, Stravinsky, Epimetheus, Bethesda, Dylan Thomas, Star Trek, Inception and Andy Kaufman. I've seen people talk at length, with clear wit and insight about absurdism, transhumanism, nihilism, Infernokrusher literature, meta-fictional transgressions of form ...and Gigli (which, frankly, may be an example of all of these put together). I mean, come on. This is the greatest!
 
To use but one of innumerable such examples, when Duchamp signed a urinal, labelled it Fountain, and exhibited it as a sculpture, he shifted the focus of art from concerns of aesthetic craft to the interpretive act of analysing a work. Art was more than simply representation (or mimesis), it was an exploratory engagement with the work itself – and if nothing else the controversy over the ending to Mass Effect (and most certainly this thread and its sparkling discussion) has proved that there is far more than simply 'whining player entitlement' and 'unsatisfied consumers' at the heart of the audience's connection to and concerns with this game; and I believe that the debate that it has inspired (if not the work itself) is a resounding declaration of why videogames can and should be considered art.
 
(p.s. – I am not likening Mass Effect to a urinal, by the way. Just thought I should try to get ahead of that right out of the gates...)

Modifié par drayfish, 27 avril 2012 - 01:52 .


#984
frozngecko

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This is an awesome rant by an awesome professor that I pray for the honor to meet. :)

#985
Guest_Opsrbest_*

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Can any give a highlighted recap of how this thread is going?

#986
M0keys

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drayfish wrote...

I'm sure everyone feels the same, but I am finding more and more (on all sides of these fruitful debates), that there are some simply startling lines, with truly piercing description, being written in this thread. Lines that I really wish that I'd said. Curse you all, you insightful, brilliant bastards!
 
Between all the intelligent, impassioned responses from people engaging with the themes, structure and character arcs of the work – not to mention CulturalGeekGirl's evocative prose and unique window into the whole scripting and production process of videogames as a clearly talented writer (I knew you were a writer: you big think write word too good) – I feel like a kid who has stepped into the wrong room at a swishy party. Suddenly I'm surrounded by the bustle of charming grown-ups, but I'm too enthralled by the glistening conversation to back out again and return to the playroom, where my charged-up biotic waits idle.
 
I've heard reasoned and illuminating references to Camus, Ed Wood, Kant, Nabikov, Clarke, Brecht, Beckett, Stein, Salinger, Bret Easton Ellis, Dexter, Firefly, Stravinsky, Epimetheus, Bethesda, Dylan Thomas, Star Trek, Inception and Andy Kaufman. I've seen people talk at length, with clear wit and insight about absurdism, transhumanism, nihilism, Infernokrusher literature, meta-fictional transgressions of form ...and Gigli (which, frankly, may be an example of all of these put together). I mean, come on. This is the greatest!
 
To use but one of innumerable such examples, when Duchamp signed a urinal, labelled it Fountain, and exhibited it as a sculpture, he shifted the focus of art from concerns of aesthetic craft to the interpretive act of analysing a work. Art was more than simply representation (or mimesis), it was an exploratory engagement with the work itself – and if nothing else the controversy over the ending to Mass Effect (and most certainly this thread and its sparkling discussion) has proved that there is far more than simply 'whining player entitlement' and 'unsatisfied consumers' at the heart of the audience's connection to and concerns with this game; and I believe that the debate that it has inspired (if not the work itself) is a resounding declaration of why videogames can and should be considered art.
 
(p.s. – I am not likening Mass Effect to a urinal, by the way. Just thought I should try to get ahead of that right out of the gates...)


It is totally fair to liken to ending to said urinal, though :D

#987
MintyCool

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Those who can't do, teach.

#988
Devil Mingy

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M0keys wrote...

It is totally fair to liken to ending to said urinal, though :D


Heh. For some reason, I'm reminded of those old analogy questions in standardized tests back in elementary school.

Urinal is to fountain as Mass Effect 3's ending is to...

:P

#989
FS3D

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MintyCool wrote...


Those who can't do, teach.


What a surprise...

Are teachers failures in life now?

#990
DTKT

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Amazing post.

#991
Keyrlis

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MintyCool wrote...


Those who can't do, teach.


Trolls who can't stay on topic, get reported.

#992
RollaWarden

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MintyCool wrote...


Those who can't do, teach.


My goodness.  I believe that was an insult. 

Ah, MintyCool, everyone, has once again graced our stage.

I think Dr. Dray and I are supposed to be...well...offended.

Touche', MintyCool, touche'.  Were I to respond with equal dazzle, I might reposte with "Says you!" or "I know you are but what am I?" or perhaps the timeless "Oh yeah????"

Such Dapperwit.   Such gibes, gambols, and songs.

Let the brilliance of this thread continue.  Bravo to all of you, I say!  BRAVO!

#993
SkaldFish

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MintyCool wrote...

Those who can't do, teach.

Well, looks like the kids have been let out of childcare. Time to round them up and go home. Who claims this one?

#994
SkaldFish

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Sable Phoenix wrote...

SkaldFish wrote...

>snippage<

This is when I saw the Catalyst as a little translucent, lying absurdity. No event whose occurrence is completely dependent on sentient beings' freedom to choose can ever be predicted with absolute certainty. This logic holds no matter how many times the event has occurred in the past, because precedence is not a factor. Even if every prior cycle of organic evolution has resulted in a conflict between organic and synthetic in which organic life is threatened, this has no bearing -- NO BEARING -- on what might happen given a subsequent instance of that evolutionary process.

(Ironically, a non-biased analysis of the notion of a technological singularity supports this, because it only states that the event horizon of the singularity is something we can't see beyond. It in no way suggests the probability or inevitability of a conflict as a result. That suggestion was just the completely unscientific, fear-mongering drama that Vinge and others insisted on bolting on to the hypothesis.)


Ho!  Oh ho ho!  Why didn't I think of this before?

Something about what you just said here, Skald, just brought something very interesting to mind.  Science Fiction does, in fact, give us a picture of a post-singularity society.  Iain M. Banks' series of novels set in the Culture ("Excession" is the best one, but people new to the series really ought to start with "The Player of Games") detail a society which is benevolently run by AIs that exist partially in hyperspace and far outstrip the intelligence of any organic being.  But instead of destroying organic life, they cultivate it and coexist with it and protect it.  They oversee a vast sybaritic utopia in which people can take on any appearance they wish, switch at will between genders, live anywhere they fancy, engage in any activity that interests them at any time or place they choose to do so, and are effectively immortal (until they choose not to be)... all because synthetic life has outstripped organic life in every capacity.

A technological singularity doesn't necessitate apocalypse.  And as you said, the only reason that hasn't been proven in the Mass Effect universe is because the Reapers themselves prevent it.  All evidence points to Shepard's galactic society as one which would become a Culture, if left to its own devices.

Of course, it may be that this is exactly what the Reapers want to prevent, since even the smallest Culture ship could vaporize a Reaper in microseconds.

Great information, Sable. Somehow I'd completely missed that series, but I was wishing just the other day for some example within the genre that demonstrates what a stable post-singularity society might look like. Banks' series is on my reading list now.

And, to your final point, this is actually the kind of endgame reveal I'd hoped for at one point -- that the Reapers aren't acting to prevent an inevitable cataclysm. Maybe they've even come to believe they are, but they're actually motivated by fear. They just want to make sure they're always going to be the "pinnacle of evolution," and, over millions of years, they've developed an elaborate "religion" whose manipulation of organic life ensures this will be the case.

Oh, well.

#995
UltmtBiz

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Hmm, that sounded neither whiny nor ignorant. Good luck poking any holes in that argument.

#996
Guest_Opsrbest_*

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Dr.Dray, I have just finished my perusing of the Final Hours App. And in it there's a portion that talks about the endings and how Casey and Mac made the decision to cut out portions of the ending to keep the story on a "higher level" instead of giving the player superfluous information at that point, an example Mac uses is the origin of the Reapers.

At this point after seeing that, knowing that was the case but seeing Macs smug smirky face smirk and smile as he explains that they cut that content out of the game intentionally; how best in whats presented is the issue of the endings focused around that? And, how much of the narrative there could be attributed to content that could be released at a later date? From your academic understanding.

Edit:
Also RollaWarden hows your friend doing with her playthroughs? S/he enjoy the games?

Modifié par Opsrbest, 27 avril 2012 - 05:16 .


#997
-Spartan

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I would love to see one of the more talented writer types in this thread to cull through it and patch together a comprehensive and consolidated “open letter to BW/EA” and post it as a different thread. Then others (like me) can see what they can do to get it noticed by various media outlets at large.

For what it is worth, I think a combined letter from Dray and Rolla as lit prof types would surely get published on sites like HuffPost if they were so inclined write one and submit it.

Modifié par -Spartan, 27 avril 2012 - 05:07 .


#998
Necrotron

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MintyCool wrote...


Those who can't do, teach.


Labeling entire groups of people in simplistic demeaning contexts is fun, is it not?

Modifié par Bathaius, 27 avril 2012 - 05:19 .


#999
frypan

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Just jumped on this thread after a few days and its gone atmospheric with quality!

EDIT: with one notable exception of course

Must catch up, so there goes the weekend and Skyrim.

Modifié par frypan, 27 avril 2012 - 05:22 .


#1000
KainrycKarr

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MegumiAzusa wrote...

He misses the point of an impossible choice.


Even if that was the point, it still goes agains the driving themes of the games.

Pay attention please.