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"All Were Thematically Revolting". My Lit Professor's take on the Endings. (UPDATED)


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#1176
edisnooM

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KitaSaturnyne wrote...

I always thought that Fallout 3's ending sequence had a structure that would have been useful as the ending to ME3. It had what I call a "modular" ending. If a certain task has been completed, a short blurb about it is inserted into the flow of the ending. If the aforementioned task is not completed, it's not part of the ending you recieve. Given the massive number of desicions we can make and tasks we can complete, it was my thought that this would be an effective way to end the game and trilogy.


A Falloutesque ending would have been far better than the emptiness we got.

However it always annoyed me how pre-Broken Steel I had to go into the chamber, even though I had Fawkes with me and he had previously done something very similar. But when you ask him he says this was my task or something. Dang you Fawkes. :?

Also welcome to the party.

#1177
Guest_Opsrbest_*

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@ drdray

Thanks for the response. This thread is hard to come by and I'm glad I could find it again. I will admit though I always found myself vIewing my shepard as macbethian. But that's probably because I like Macbeth. A lot. The council always gave me the witches vibe.

#1178
delta_vee

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edisnooM wrote...
Also as an interesting point I noticed that only Shepard interacts with the kid on Earth. Dun dun dun.


That one's easy. The child's death has to be Shepard's failure, and Shepard's alone. Not that it worked, but that was the intention.

#1179
Guest_Opsrbest_*

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Doubled a post

Modifié par Opsrbest, 02 mai 2012 - 07:09 .


#1180
delta_vee

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Opsrbest wrote...

@ drdray

Thanks for the response. This thread is hard to come by and I'm glad I could find it again. I will admit though I always found myself vIewing my shepard as macbethian. But that's probably because I like Macbeth. A lot. The council always gave me the witches vibe.


Oh gods, the appropriate Macbeth quote is too @#$%ing easy.

"It is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing."

#1181
delta_vee

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Better yet, to quote Rosencrantz and Guildenstern Are Dead:

Player: Events must play themselves out to aesthetic, moral and logical conclusion.
Guildenstern: And what's that, in this case?
Player: It never varies — we aim at the point where everyone who is marked for death dies.
Guildenstern: Marked?
Player: Between "just deserts" and "tragic irony" we are given quite a large scope for our particular talent. Generally speaking, things have gone about as far as they can possibly go when things have gotten about as bad as they can reasonably get.
Guildenstern: Who decides?
Player: Decides? It is written.


Modifié par delta_vee, 02 mai 2012 - 07:26 .


#1182
jbauck

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delta_vee wrote...

SkaldFish wrote...

<extra snip>

Incidentally, this also raises the question of whether a massive effort like Mass Effect can really be executed without establishing a fairly detailed narrative architecture up front, but I suppose that's a topic for another post.

<another snip>


While I very much agree with what you're suggesting, the practical difficulties with that sort of approach vis-a-vis ME3 are multifarious. None of the Mass Effect games are true tree graphs; minor variations aside, the narrative path of each game is more of a zig-zag. Game development is inherently massively parallel, and ME3 especially wears that on its sleeve.

<MOAR snippies!>


I think delta_vee's response there is the reason my response to the question SkaldFish raises is: no.

Because, as delta_vee states, game development is inherently massively parallel, it's ridiculously important that a narrative architecture be put into place first.  I think of Mass Effect - the series as a whole - as a failed experiment in bringing video games to a new level as a storytelling medium.  When ME2 was released, I recall the developers talking about how difficult it was to take into account all the different ways ME1 could end, and how they tried to give ME2 a narrower range of possibilities so that ME3 wouldn't have drastically different starting points.

So ... they tried to do something very ambitious and groundbreaking, by making a video-game trilogy where the player's choices would have massive impact on the narrative, and by the second game they decided it was too hard.  If there had been a narrative architecture in place for the entire trilogy before they started the first game, so the writers/developers knew where they were going and what events were important in regards to how the player got there, the project would have been far more manageable.

Outlining all of the game-changing choices/consequences across all three games was a necessary, but apparently skipped, step.  Interactive fiction and static fiction are inherently different for the obvious reason that interactive fiction has audience participation to take into account. Audience participation, to bring this back around to SkaldFish's awesomely nerderrific post, is like having a user. A user is different from an audience.

An audience is there for a passive experience, but a user wants to accomplish something. What does the user want to accomplish? That's the first freaking question a programmer or a writer of interactive fiction should ask themselves, and that's what, apparently, no one at BioWare asked in regards to players of Mass Effect - because they don't quite seem to understand that we're users, not audience members.

By the end of Mass Effect 3, we have a piece of interactive fiction that no longer cares about what the user was trying to do.  I think that SkaldFish's post nails the idea that a piece of interactive fiction can't be developed correctly if it's treated like any other kind of story: if it's going to respond to the player's choices ... the user's input ... then it has to be developed like a program.  It also needs to be developed by people who understand that there are users involved, who have their own goals.  Like, say - stopping the Reapers without the entire trilogy coming to a screeching halt at "what color of atrocity would you like to commit today?"

#1183
Seijin8

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KitaSaturnyne wrote...

I would love to hear your Lit professor's suggestions for a better ending. Would the choices be different? Would there be choices at all? What else would be different?


One of many excellent examples:
http://social.biowar...886/45#11781804

#1184
edisnooM

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So apparently there are trees in the Catalyst room. This is apparently a cube map of the room http://i.imgur.com/RIIzj.jpg and the thread I found it on: http://social.biowar...ndex/11802845/1

I'm not really sure what Bioware is doing any more. Hopefully they do.

Modifié par edisnooM, 02 mai 2012 - 07:50 .


#1185
Grotaiche

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Long but passionating read. Thanks to all of you who replied :)

Keyrlis wrote...
[snip]
Done properly, I can see the uses of misleading ends: Had this been the end of ME2 (I always think of Back to the Future 2
and it's questionable, but appropriate "To Be Continued" ending), I
would be eagerly awaiting ME3 to know if Shepard had been indoctrinated
or what had really happened. You better believe I would be waiting in
line to pick up my preordered copy of ME3, just as IT followers were
anxiously looking forward to "The Truth" DLC. When Bioware denied any
plans to do such a thing, I was so disappointed at the loss of awesome.
[re-snip]

Exactly. But, as almost everyone stated before, it looks very unlikely this was planned at all. We'll see what the future brings for us.

SkaldFish wrote a huge post...

EDIT: Wow - didn't realize this had become such a tl;dr -- I hope you consider it worth the investment...
[snip]

Didn't feel like quoting the whole post but actually read it (being a software programmer helped me understanding it =]) While I do not completely agree with you, I believe you make very valid points. In fact, jbauck nails it here :

jbauck wrote...
[snip]
 A user is different from an audience.

An
audience is there for a passive experience, but a user wants to
accomplish something. What does the user want to accomplish? That's the
first freaking question a programmer or a writer of interactive fiction
should ask themselves, and that's what, apparently, no one at BioWare
asked in regards to players of Mass Effect - because they don't quite
seem to understand that we're users, not audience members.

By the
end of Mass Effect 3, we have a piece of interactive fiction that no
longer cares about what the user was trying to do.  I think that
SkaldFish's post nails the idea that a piece of interactive fiction
can't be developed correctly if it's treated like any other kind
of story: if it's going to respond to the player's choices ... the
user's input ... then it has to be developed like a program.  It also
needs to be developed by people who understand that there are users
involved, who have their own goals.  Like, say - stopping the Reapers
without the entire trilogy coming to a screeching halt at "what color of
atrocity would you like to commit today?"

To me, at some point, BioWare forgot they were dealing with users. They did not completely forget it because, you know, we can choose the ending (just kidding, obviously). But yes, I think it's part of the problem : they thought they were dealing with a story on a passive medium like a movie or a play.
One day, video games will break free from the legacy of passive media. I thought this day had arrived with Mass Effect but the failed ending shows otherwise. (and no, Heavy Rain did not achieve that but it's for another topic)

edisnooM wrote...

About the Indoctrination Theory, I think that the amount of reasonable time for Bioware to use it has passed.

I
know when I first beat the game, I was stunned, unsure what to make of
what I had just witnessed. After running to Youtube and seeing that all
the endings were essentially the same I sought solace in Google's all
seeing eye. After reading some of Biowares cryptic responses and seeing
the fan theories, a new thought entered my mind, Bioware couldn't have
dropped the ball that badly. I know them to be some of the finest
writers in the game industry, surely they had a plan.

I was
certain that a reasonable amount of time after the game had released
globally they would quietly put up a DLC, maybe make a subtle suggestion
to take a look, and their master plan would be revealed in some form or
another.

But as time passed, as I was further dismissed,
derided, and even insulted for dissenting with their vision, I began to
lose hope that there was any great plan at work. I'm not sure what
happened behind the scenes, what led to such promise vanishing so
horrifyingly, but it seems that this was what they intended to deliver.
I'm just not sure what there is left to clarify.


P.S.

A
side effect of the endings however is that I came onto the BSN. I have
had an account since I bought ME2 but hadn't had much cause to come on.
One of the most comforting things I found after the ending was the
realization that I was not alone. There were others as upset as I, some
disheartened, others vengeful, with all caps posts of pure internet rage
decrying the injustice dealt them. All had endured what I had.

Regardless of your position on the spectrum of anger it is a comforting thought to know you are not alone.

My thoughts exactly, from A to Z. Thank you for making this post :kissing:

delta_vee wrote...

Also, on the subject of IT:

No. Just, no. It would've been ludonarrative suicide, given the paucity of direct
textual support in the game we received. And logistical suicide as
well, given the reality of limited broadband and bandwidth caps, unless
the content was on-disc and timelocked.

[...]

Similarly, Indoctrination Theory was a thoroughly post-facto and paratextual
response to the dissociation of the ending. If one ending were to truly
be favored over the others to the degree of substantial additional
gameplay, sufficient information to discern the "true" ending would have
to be far more deeply integrated than a codex entry and some
screen-edge shadows. Mass Effect had never previously hidden (or even
disguised) information crucial to gameplay - it just isn't that
kind of game. There would be signposts along the way allowing for the
possibility. And no, badly-done overwrought dream sequences don't
count.

Great point. I didn't consider it that way and it helps. It also saddens me, just like others have expressed after your post, but I believe you're 100% right.
Also, I loved BioShock's "would you kindly" moment :( Of course, it's not without flaws, but I believe it's a step in the right direction. Most successes arise from countless failures ; BioShock's "twist", while imperfect, had the merit of being there and shook off the gaming world a bit. Which is always a good thing.

#1186
Keyrlis

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edisnooM wrote...

drayfish wrote...

(In fact, I'm wondering how these scenes play to the pure-Renegade Shepard's out there? Surely they don't align with many players' sense of character?)


I had actually thought this, to a pure-Paragon perhaps, but would a pure-Renegade care about a single child amid a world aflame?

And for that matter, my Shepard while Paragon is a "Earthborn" "Sole-Survivor" and no stranger to the horrors of war or life in general. The loss while tragic is something you think he could cope with.

Also as an interesting point I noticed that only Shepard interacts with the kid on Earth. Dun dun dun.

That's only the tip of the iceberg.
Even if I agree that they are losing the opportunity to take advantage of IT, I have yet to see a convincing reason for how it "breaks" the already broken ending, and far too many "coincidences" that would allow it, mostly off of only one page:
The low rez Ashley/Kaiden bodies on the way to the beam,
the similarity of the Mako wreckage to formations in the "secret chamber",
the fact we talk to the kid in the beginning just after he runs directly into a building that get blasted, 
bleeding in the same spot you shoot Anderson,
the re-use and conglomeration of previously seen ships/hallways,
we see the kid on Earth always near a Caution or Danger sign- the vent even has lightning hitting a human head,
If you choose control, the kid remains long enough to smirk at you,
Vega hearing that hum in the lower decks (remember the old Reaper IFF installed in the Normandy SR-2?),
Harbinger deciding to take off rather than taunt you as he usually does just after you "wake up",
"Dream" trees sprouting up behind you in London,

and my current favorite: In the game files, the model of the kid is named Harbinger.


The transformation from ally to servant can be subtle. I will not let it happen to ME.  -Saren

#1187
Hawk227

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delta_vee wrote...

Also, on the subject of IT:

No. Just, no. It would've been ludonarrative suicide, given the paucity of direct textual support in the game we received. And logistical suicide as well, given the reality of limited broadband and bandwidth caps, unless the content was on-disc and timelocked.

[...snip...]

Similarly, Indoctrination Theory was a thoroughly post-facto and paratextual response to the dissociation of the ending. If one ending were to truly be favored over the others to the degree of substantial additional gameplay, sufficient information to discern the "true" ending would have to be far more deeply integrated than a codex entry and some screen-edge shadows. Mass Effect had never previously hidden (or even disguised) information crucial to gameplay - it just isn't that kind of game. There would be signposts along the way allowing for the possibility. And no, badly-done overwrought dream sequences don't count.


I rather strongly disagree with the underlined statements. The IT is more substantial than the Acayvos video. I'm not going to argue that the foreshadowing was sufficient (the backlash proves it wasn't) but it's there.

The simplest explanation is just an assessment of the final choices. There is a reason fans took to the internet on masse to protest the final choices. Two of them are embodied by major antagonists and much of the preceding 100 hours was spent cautioning against these two choices. The third and preferable choice is only unappealing because the Edi and the Geth (That should be band name) were thrown in as hostages collateral damage.

The strongest evidence is the famous breath scene. Shepard wakes up in concrete rubble after being at the center of this explosion (For a sense of scale: the presidium is 7km in diameter). Further analysis suggests one of the objects in the background may be a mako. Granted the further analysis that mako discovery required means it fails at being very accessible. The real problem with the breath scene was how difficult it was to achieve. It was impossible for people without MP to get it, after all. But a failure in execution does not retroactively eliminate the attempt.

The dream sequences contain the only fade to white seques prior to Harbinger's beam hitting Shepard, so we've been conditioned to associate that with dreams... no wonder people thought that scene was dreamlike.

Then of course, there was Kaidan/Ashley constantly questioning whether Shepard's actually Shepard, Miranda emphasizing that Shepard had no control chip, and even Shepard questioning his/her own authenticity on Chronos station. All to illicit a little bit of doubt in the player (at least, it worked on me) and also to make it abundantly clear that TIM can't control Shepard.
The people who picked "correctly" (and had enough EMS :pinched:) got the breath scene as the "tell" moment to clue them in. But even people that picked wrong got a similar (but substantially more subtle) tell by the way Shepard appears to be turned into a husk (complete with TIM's eyes) upon grabbing the control handles or diving into the synthesis beam.

I agree that most of that stuff is really only obvious in hindsight, and that is a failure in execution. I'm not arguing they did a good enough job, I'm arguing that there was in-game context. I only touched on the major pieces. There is a fair bit more and these two links do a decent (if somewhat disorganized) job of addressing them.

Modifié par Hawk227, 02 mai 2012 - 08:35 .


#1188
edisnooM

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Keyrlis wrote...

edisnooM wrote...

drayfish wrote...

(In fact, I'm wondering how these scenes play to the pure-Renegade Shepard's out there? Surely they don't align with many players' sense of character?)


I had actually thought this, to a pure-Paragon perhaps, but would a pure-Renegade care about a single child amid a world aflame?

And for that matter, my Shepard while Paragon is a "Earthborn" "Sole-Survivor" and no stranger to the horrors of war or life in general. The loss while tragic is something you think he could cope with.

Also as an interesting point I noticed that only Shepard interacts with the kid on Earth. Dun dun dun.

That's only the tip of the iceberg.
Even if I agree that they are losing the opportunity to take advantage of IT, I have yet to see a convincing reason for how it "breaks" the already broken ending, and far too many "coincidences" that would allow it, mostly off of only one page:
The low rez Ashley/Kaiden bodies on the way to the beam,
the similarity of the Mako wreckage to formations in the "secret chamber",
the fact we talk to the kid in the beginning just after he runs directly into a building that get blasted, 
bleeding in the same spot you shoot Anderson,
the re-use and conglomeration of previously seen ships/hallways,
we see the kid on Earth always near a Caution or Danger sign- the vent even has lightning hitting a human head,
If you choose control, the kid remains long enough to smirk at you,
Vega hearing that hum in the lower decks (remember the old Reaper IFF installed in the Normandy SR-2?),
Harbinger deciding to take off rather than taunt you as he usually does just after you "wake up",
"Dream" trees sprouting up behind you in London,

and my current favorite: In the game files, the model of the kid is named Harbinger.


The transformation from ally to servant can be subtle. I will not let it happen to ME.  -Saren


Wait the model is actually named Harbinger? That seems completely odd and unnecessary. If IT isn't true what sort of naming convention is that?

As I mentioned earlier I'm not sure what Bioware is doing. There's a lot of weird stuff that could just be chocked up as hasty reuse of resources, but if it was unintentional they sure provided a lot of fuel for the speculative fire.

#1189
Sable Phoenix

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jbauck wrote...

Audience participation, to bring this back around to SkaldFish's awesomely nerderrific post, is like having a user. A user is different from an audience.

An audience is there for a passive experience, but a user wants to accomplish something. What does the user want to accomplish? That's the first freaking question a programmer or a writer of interactive fiction should ask themselves, and that's what, apparently, no one at BioWare asked in regards to players of Mass Effect - because they don't quite seem to understand that we're users, not audience members.


Forgive the irrelevant geekitude, but as I read this I couldn't help but think about a certain character who fought for the users.

Modifié par Sable Phoenix, 02 mai 2012 - 08:43 .


#1190
Hawk227

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Keyrlis wrote...

edisnooM wrote...

drayfish wrote...

(In fact, I'm wondering how these scenes play to the pure-Renegade Shepard's out there? Surely they don't align with many players' sense of character?)


I had actually thought this, to a pure-Paragon perhaps, but would a pure-Renegade care about a single child amid a world aflame?

And for that matter, my Shepard while Paragon is a "Earthborn" "Sole-Survivor" and no stranger to the horrors of war or life in general. The loss while tragic is something you think he could cope with.

Also as an interesting point I noticed that only Shepard interacts with the kid on Earth. Dun dun dun.

That's only the tip of the iceberg.
Even if I agree that they are losing the opportunity to take advantage of IT, I have yet to see a convincing reason for how it "breaks" the already broken ending, and far too many "coincidences" that would allow it, mostly off of only one page:
The low rez Ashley/Kaiden bodies on the way to the beam,
the similarity of the Mako wreckage to formations in the "secret chamber",
the fact we talk to the kid in the beginning just after he runs directly into a building that get blasted, 
bleeding in the same spot you shoot Anderson,
the re-use and conglomeration of previously seen ships/hallways,
we see the kid on Earth always near a Caution or Danger sign- the vent even has lightning hitting a human head,
If you choose control, the kid remains long enough to smirk at you,
Vega hearing that hum in the lower decks (remember the old Reaper IFF installed in the Normandy SR-2?),
Harbinger deciding to take off rather than taunt you as he usually does just after you "wake up",
"Dream" trees sprouting up behind you in London,

and my current favorite: In the game files, the model of the kid is named Harbinger.


The transformation from ally to servant can be subtle. I will not let it happen to ME.  -Saren


Sadly, that last one has been debunked. It was apparently photoshopped in to the screen grab.

I do however Love that Saren quote. Perfect.

I think the perfect release date for a "the truth" style DLC was about... a week ago. I have several theories on why that didn't play out, but they're all speculation. But I suppose that was the point all along.

#1191
Keyrlis

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Hawk227 wrote...

Keyrlis wrote...

edisnooM wrote...

drayfish wrote...

(In fact, I'm wondering how these scenes play to the pure-Renegade Shepard's out there? Surely they don't align with many players' sense of character?)


I had actually thought this, to a pure-Paragon perhaps, but would a pure-Renegade care about a single child amid a world aflame?

And for that matter, my Shepard while Paragon is a "Earthborn" "Sole-Survivor" and no stranger to the horrors of war or life in general. The loss while tragic is something you think he could cope with.

Also as an interesting point I noticed that only Shepard interacts with the kid on Earth. Dun dun dun.

That's only the tip of the iceberg.
Even if I agree that they are losing the opportunity to take advantage of IT, I have yet to see a convincing reason for how it "breaks" the already broken ending, and far too many "coincidences" that would allow it, mostly off of only one page:
The low rez Ashley/Kaiden bodies on the way to the beam,
the similarity of the Mako wreckage to formations in the "secret chamber",
the fact we talk to the kid in the beginning just after he runs directly into a building that get blasted, 
bleeding in the same spot you shoot Anderson,
the re-use and conglomeration of previously seen ships/hallways,
we see the kid on Earth always near a Caution or Danger sign- the vent even has lightning hitting a human head,
If you choose control, the kid remains long enough to smirk at you,
Vega hearing that hum in the lower decks (remember the old Reaper IFF installed in the Normandy SR-2?),
Harbinger deciding to take off rather than taunt you as he usually does just after you "wake up",
"Dream" trees sprouting up behind you in London,

and my current favorite: In the game files, the model of the kid is named Harbinger.


The transformation from ally to servant can be subtle. I will not let it happen to ME.  -Saren


Sadly, that last one has been debunked. It was apparently photoshopped in to the screen grab.

I do however Love that Saren quote. Perfect.

I think the perfect release date for a "the truth" style DLC was about... a week ago. I have several theories on why that didn't play out, but they're all speculation. But I suppose that was the point all along.


Well, THAT figures.
It was my favorite, so I should have known it was too good to be true. :(
I usually research things better, but I suppose hope blinded me with excitement.
All things considered, this might just be enough to make me give up video gaming altogether.
I've spent more time posting in here, or trying to rally for BioWare to "fix" this game than I do playing it.
I haven't picked up the controller in weeks except to play a little multiplayer or watch Netflix. It's as if all the joy I got out of living vicariously through all my various "Keyrlis" (unintentional fun to say tongue twister) characters died with Shepard. I feel less synthesized, and more anesthetized: Careless, rather than Keyrlis.
Guess I'm back to just being Lee, as boring as it usually is.
.
If this is what people have been referring to as "growing up", would that I had perished while still an old child.

Well, perish is a strong word, but it sounded right.

#1192
edisnooM

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Keyrlis wrote...

Well, THAT figures.
It was my favorite, so I should have known it was too good to be true. :(
I usually research things better, but I suppose hope blinded me with excitement.
All things considered, this might just be enough to make me give up video gaming altogether.
I've spent more time posting in here, or trying to rally for BioWare to "fix" this game than I do playing it.
I haven't picked up the controller in weeks except to play a little multiplayer or watch Netflix. It's as if all the joy I got out of living vicariously through all my various "Keyrlis" (unintentional fun to say tongue twister) characters died with Shepard. I feel less synthesized, and more anesthetized: Careless, rather than Keyrlis.
Guess I'm back to just being Lee, as boring as it usually is.
.
If this is what people have been referring to as "growing up", would that I had perished while still an old child.

Well, perish is a strong word, but it sounded right.


Keep your chin up, it's always darkest before the dawn. :)

#1193
nicethugbert

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Made Nightwing wrote...
Suddenly Shepard was not simply being asked to sacrifice a race or a friend or him/herself for the greater good (all of which was no doubt expected by any player paying attention to the tone of the series), Shepard was being compelled, without even the chance to offer a counterpoint, to perform one of three actions that to my reading each fundamentally undermined the narrative foundations upon which the series seemed to rest.


I can accept if a person simply does not enjoy this form of entertainment, but, isn't it a valid form of entertainment nonetheless?  Does not life have a complete disregard of narrative foundation so that if you want to explore certain topics via literature/art/media you would have to undermine seeming narrative foundations?  Was the narrative foundation truely undermined?  After all, control, destruction, and synthesis were presnet through out the series.  The differences were the context in the ending, "OK, so you think this is what you will do.  You think this is right or wrong.  Now, you are bleeding to death in The Catalysts home.  He wants to make a deal.  You don't have the power to change his mind.  He sets the conditions.  He dictates the terms.  Pick your poison.  What do you do now?  What compromise do you make?"

I do find it odd that I could not inform The Catalyst about the Quarians and The Geth getting along and The Geth achiving individuality or that he did not seem to be aware of it.  All Shep could say was, "Maybe."  But, The Catalyst could have persisted in his pessimism anyway.

Made Nightwing wrote...
In the Control ending, Shepard is invited to pursue the previously impossible path of attempting to dominate the reapers and bend them to his will. Momentarily putting aside the vulgarity of dominating a species to achieve one's own ends (and I will get to complaining about that premise soon enough), this has proved to be the failed modus operandi of every antagonist in this fiction up until this point – including the Illusive Man and Saren – all of whom have been chewed up and destroyed by their blind ambition, incapable of controlling forces beyond their comprehension. Nothing in the vague prognostication of the exposition-ghost offers any tangible justification for why Shepard's plunge into Reaper-control should play out any differently. In fact, as many people have already pointed out, Shepard has literally not five minutes before this moment watched the Illusive Man die as a consequence of this arrogant misconception.


Everyone who had previously attempted to control the reapers were indoctrinated, Shepard was presumably not.  Although, that ending is short and simple to leave the future uncertain, as are the other two endings.  None of the endings have long term closure.  You simply pick the compromise you feel best about even if horrible nonetheless.

Made Nightwing wrote...


The Destroy ending, however, seems even more perverse. One of the constants of the Mass Effect universe (and indeed much quality science fiction) has been an exploration of the notion that life is not simplistically bound to biology, that existence expands beyond the narrow parameters of blood and bone. That is why synthetic characters like Legion and EDI are so compelling in this context, why their quests to understand self-awareness – not simply to ape human behaviours – is so dramatic and compelling. Indeed, we even get glimpses of the Reapers having more sprawling and unknowable motivations that we puny mortals can comprehend...


Now that you mention it, Reapers having more sprawling and unknowable motivations that we puny mortals can comprehend does make the control ending seem more ambigous.  Not that it made sense that Shep could control them if he has to sacrifice himself.


Made Nightwing wrote...


To then end the tale by forcing the player to obliterate several now-proven-legitimate forms of life in order to 'save' the traditional definition of fleshy existence is not only genocidal, it actually devolves Shephard's ideological growth, undermining his ascent toward a more enlightened conception of existence, something that the fiction has been steadily advancing no matter how Renegadishably you wanted to play. This is particularly evident when the preceding actions of all three games entirely disprove the premise that synthetic will inevitably destroy organic: the Geth were the persecuted victims, trying their best to save the Quarians from themselves; EDI, given autonomy, immediately sought to aid her crew, even taking physical form in order to experience life from their perspective and finally learning that she too feared the implications of death.


The major factor in the Geth sparing the Quarians is that they could not calculate the outcome of the destruction of the Quarians, so they prudently retreated where the Quarians would not follow, although they did maintain Rannoch.

If you have legion achieve individualty, The Geth attempt to help The Quarians.  They are not vengeful.  But, it is not certain that should the Quarians become hostile again, that the Geth will not obliterate them.  They may not need to, they might.  The Geth were not driven by emotion or ideology, so it narrows their motivations to a set not common among humans.  But, if all life is Synthesized, are the Geth now burdened by emotion or ideology?

Made Nightwing wrote...


And finally Synthesis, the ending that I suspect (unless we are to believe the Indoctrination Theory) is the 'good' option, proves to be the most distasteful of all. Shepard, up until this point has been an instrument though which change is achieved in this universe, and dependent upon your individual Renegade or Paragon choices, this may have resulted in siding with one species or another, letting this person live or that person die, even condemning races to extinction through your actions. But these decisions were always the result of a mediation of disparate opinions, and a consequence of the natural escalation of these disputes – Shepard was merely the fork in the path that decided which way the lava would run. His/her actions had an impact, but was responding to events in the universe that were already in motion before he/she arrived.

To belabour the point: Shepard is an agent for arbitration, the tipping point of dialogues that have, at times, root causes that reach back across generations. Up until this moment in the game the narrative, and Shepard's role within it, has been about the negotiation of diversity, testing the validity of opposing viewpoints and selecting a path through which to evolve on to another layer of questioning.

Suddenly with the Synthesis ending, Shepard's capacity to make decisions elevates from offering a moral tipping point to arbitrarily wiping such disparity from the world. Shepard imposes his/her will upon every species, every form of life within the galaxy, making them all a dreary homogenous oneness. At such a point, wiping negotiation and multiplicity from the universe, Shepard moves from being an influential voice amongst a biodiversity of thought to sacrificing him/herself in an omnipotent imposition of will.




I do not think your interpretation of Synthesis is supported by ME series.  Prior to the invention of synthetic life there was only organic life, one framework for life.  One could argue that after the invention of synthetic life there was still only one framework for life but two hardware platforms.  Synthesis returns life to one hardware platform.  It does not mean that life forms will stop warring.  It simply means that organic life will continue to exist in some hybrid form, perhaps.  After all, you can not be certain that ideologues will not seek to be purely organic or synthetic and attempt genocide unless it is made clear that Synthesized life has the evolutionary advantage over either organic or synthetic life.  But, we see that the vastly, incomprehensibly, superior reapers are not strictly synthetic and that organics typically choose to augment with synthetics when they can.  So, evolution was already pushing Synthesis, Shepard mearly pushed it along, if you choose that ending.


I think the sameness of the endings implies that the authors see the future as inevitable in the terms expressed in the series.


Made Nightwing wrote...



The obscurities in the ending of Mass Effect 3 have not been similarly earned by its prior narrative. This narrative has not until this point been about dominance, extermination, and the imposition of uniformity – indeed, Shepard has spent over a hundred hours of narrative fighting against precisely these three themes. And if one of these three (and only these three) options must be selected in order to sustain life in the universe, then that life has been so devalued by that act as to make the sacrifice meaningless.

And that is why I shall continue to go on shooting Haley-Joel-Osment-ghost in the face.

...Sorry again for the length of this post.


It is often expressed in ME that the reapers are incomprehensibly superior, not infalible, but superior.  It is only natural that we should be shocked by the ending.  To think that the reapers could be destoryed when there are so many of them and it takes so much effort to destroy one is extremely optimistic.  But, Anderson and Hacket's plan was not to beat them conventionally.  They said it was highly unlikely.  The plan was to sneek into their supposed week spot and pull their linch pin.  But, no one knew with certainty where and what the linch pin was.  The Crucible was always a gamble.  No one knew what it would do.  Even The Catalyst was changed by it by surprise.  The Crucible made it possible for Shepard and The Catalyst to negotiate some result.  It gave neither party a dominant position.  The Crucible made it possible to either reset the conflict to it's begining, i.e. a time when only organics existed, or it's mid point, i.e. synthetics exist under the domination of organics, or the future, i.e. synthetics and organics meld.  The Crucible is an evolutionary force.  Evolution cannot be stopped unless all life and it's precursors are destroyed.

Modifié par nicethugbert, 02 mai 2012 - 09:39 .


#1194
Seijin8

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@ Keyrlis

Hang in until the Extended Cut is released. If things are still bad after that, then you've done all you can for it. The fundamental choices offered stink as presented, but there are viable ways to make them... if not palatable, then at least less abhorrent. I have faith that the writing team for EC will be able to pull a minor miracle and make the endings suck less.

#1195
edisnooM

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 I found this interesting article discussing Mass Effect 3 and specifically the ending: nothing-is-irreversible.com/2012/03/31/mass-effect-3-a-posthumous-analysis/#more-1411. Probably nothing we haven't already seen but never hurts to have a fresh perspective. Interestingly enough the author appears to be Australian. What's with all these Aussies being good writers?

He also has a 7 part dissertation on Mass Effect 3 written before it came out. I read the last part which discussed the Reapers and the Thorian. Pretty interesting and I'll probably read the others later, but it's apparently 24,000 words so a bit of an undertaking. :blink:

#1196
Keyrlis

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edisnooM wrote...

Keyrlis wrote...

Well, THAT figures.
It was my favorite, so I should have known it was too good to be true. :(
I usually research things better, but I suppose hope blinded me with excitement.
All things considered, this might just be enough to make me give up video gaming altogether.
I've spent more time posting in here, or trying to rally for BioWare to "fix" this game than I do playing it.
I haven't picked up the controller in weeks except to play a little multiplayer or watch Netflix. It's as if all the joy I got out of living vicariously through all my various "Keyrlis" (unintentional fun to say tongue twister) characters died with Shepard. I feel less synthesized, and more anesthetized: Careless, rather than Keyrlis.
Guess I'm back to just being Lee, as boring as it usually is.
.
If this is what people have been referring to as "growing up", would that I had perished while still an old child.

Well, perish is a strong word, but it sounded right.



Keep your chin up, it's always darkest before the dawn. :)


Okay... that was trippy...
I have been singing that Florence and the Machines song Shake it Up with the radio, and as soon as I refresh the page and read your post, I realize I am singing "it's always darkest before the dawn" at the exact same moment.
Fortunately, I love synchronicity, and suffer/thrive a bit from apophenia, so YES:
~It is an omen.~
Also, it is actually darkest... buried in a cave filled with oil on a planet with no sun.:P

Edit: realized with no sun, there would be no dead of night, so this pointless post was made even moreso.
Bedtime, ladies and gents.

Modifié par Keyrlis, 02 mai 2012 - 10:19 .


#1197
CulturalGeekGirl

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Ok, so I was reading this thread, taking notes on a bunch of crap in a text document, hoping to form it into coherence at some point in the future, while checking links on the internet. You know, the usual. I'll hopefully be back later with some thoughts on the last few marvelous pages, but this shouldn't wait.

Then I stumbled upon this piece of criticism. Not about Mass Effect, but about Speculative Fiction in general. It is... perfectly and amazingly appropriate to our situation.

Dear Speculative Fiction, I'm Glad We Had this Talk, by Elizabeth Bear.

Some excerpts:

I'm sitting down to have this conversation with you as a friend, as somebody who loves you. As somebody who's devoted thirty-odd years of her life to you.

We've all made some mistakes. We've all had moments in our lives when we got a little self-important, maybe. Where our senses of humor failed us.

I'm as guilty as anyone of taking myself too seriously.

But for you, it's become an addiction. You seem to think that nothing fun can have value; that only grimdark portentousness and dystopia mean anything. You wallow in human suffering and despair, and frankly—it makes me tired.


And this:

Oh, honey, I'm not saying you're old. And I'm not leaving you. You're a big part of my life, and I will always be here for you. I'm just trying to make sure that you're always here for me, and sitting there in a toxic stew of your own bitterness . . . it's not good for you. Look at you. When was the last time you left the house? When was the last time you read something because it was fun, not because you thought it was good for you?

Stern-lipped moral uprightness is not a literary value, darling. Sure, theme is. I'm not disputing that. But did you know that John Gardner talked about this thing he called "disPollyanna Syndrome?" He considered it a literary vice—the cynical fallacy that the real world is unrelievedly bleak—and he considered it as great a disservice to art as its opposite.


Read the whole thing. Please. This is how I feel about Mass Effect and Bioware. I still love you, baby. I'm not leaving because things have gotten a little rough... but you've got to get out of this funk. There's more to life than death and loss.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 02 mai 2012 - 11:37 .


#1198
drayfish

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@ CulturalGeekGirl:

Brilliant reference.  Thank you.

'You started thinking you had to be cynical and mean to accomplish anything. You got wrapped up in your own history and your long-running arguments. You buried yourself in the seriousness of it all, and you forgot how to tell a joke. You even got—I hate to say it—kind of pretentious. Didactic, even.'

Great stuff.

Modifié par drayfish, 02 mai 2012 - 12:35 .


#1199
delta_vee

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CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Dear Speculative Fiction, I'm Glad We Had this Talk, by Elizabeth Bear.


I find this somewhat...unintentionally hilarious. No offense to anyone, of course, including Ms. Bear. It's just that she's good friends with Peter Watts, who writes the most consistently bleak SF I can think of, so I imagine her trying to have this conversation directly with him. That would be...amusing to watch. I know Peter well enough to picture the conversation in my head.

That's probably just me, though. Carry on.

#1200
3DandBeyond

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The only way I could go with IT is if there's an ultimate rejection of it. The way I see it is that if Shepard is fully indoctrinated, it cheapens his/her legacy and dilutes the meaning of all s/he tried to do. Rejection could actually be the broken cog in the star kid's best laid plans-might break the program and leave the other reapers vulnerable. Then your friends and war assets go to work. Maybe at some point Joker comes and gets you off the Citadel (something like the awesome scene in ME2 with Shepard jumping aboard). Ok, it's true Shepard has no spacesuit on so that's an issue, but I do remember somewhere reading one of the writers had an idea that the keepers create these atmospheric and protective bubbles to protect people. It was part of an original idea to explain that people would not all die if the Citadel were destroyed.

As I see it if IT happened, Shepard rejects it, gets back to the Normandy-this could lead up to some truly great moments with Joker getting to kick some butt, instead of turning and running. It would bring Shepard back home.

All along in the game (ME3) you had it pointed out just how neutered Joker feels in that he can't help out. The final hit to him is when EDI is going to help out on the Cerberus Base. He is so protective and helpless. It's so distasteful that the only thing most of us will remember of him flying the Normandy is that "running away" scene. The Normandy is Joker as much as it is also Shepard, maybe more, probably more. Shepard has this gut level tie to it based on the opening scenes in ME2-the last to leave it which was so amazingly done. That moment when the Normandy died-Shepard died, too. And Joker, you just can feel how tied he was to that ship as it disintegrated all around him. Those moments were so powerful-Shepard retrieving and saving him and all.

Vindication for all of this would be so emotionally powerful. Seeing destroyed reapers all around as the Normandy hits the battle.

I can think of scenarios where it then might make sense for teammates in London to rejoin the Normandy and ways to do that.

But the point comes back to that if IT is the thing, then more options need to open up. A return to reality the most important in my opinion. Other things could play out based upon choices you've made. I just do feel very strongly that Bioware really messed up Joker and the Normandy's story. I think his feelings for the ship allowed him to recognize the character within EDI.