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[Xarathox]

KitaSaturnyne wrote...

The Synthesis ending brings up a medical question for me.

Since everyone would be constructed from the same DNA-type framework (called DNA here for simplicity's sake), would organ transplants across species become viable?

For instance, could a Turian recieve a lung from a Human? I realize the structures of Turian and Human lungs would likely differ, but would the Turian's body be more able to accept a human organ after being built of this new DNA?

The likelihood of such a comparison you suggested being a viable outcome has an extremely low chance of occuring.

The synthesis option, and its low-key explination, doesn't offer the chance of such a drastic change without re-writting not only the biological structure of individual species, but a change to molecular structure as well.

There are too many variables ( I know, that word is overused, but it's very appropriate here ) to take into account for synthesis to expunge current ( in the context of the series ) structures of existence into something as radically different as the star-brat let on.

In other words: synthesis really is the embodiment of "space magic".

[Isichar]

Xarathox wrote...

KitaSaturnyne wrote...

The Synthesis ending brings up a medical question for me.

Since everyone would be constructed from the same DNA-type framework (called DNA here for simplicity's sake), would organ transplants across species become viable?

For instance, could a Turian recieve a lung from a Human? I realize the structures of Turian and Human lungs would likely differ, but would the Turian's body be more able to accept a human organ after being built of this new DNA?

The likelihood of such a comparison you suggested being a viable outcome has an extremely low chance of occuring.

The synthesis option, and its low-key explination, doesn't offer the chance of such a drastic change without re-writting not only the biological structure of individual species, but a change to molecular structure as well.

There are too many variables ( I know, that word is overused, but it's very appropriate here ) to take into account for synthesis to expunge current ( in the context of the series ) structures of existence into something as radically different as the star-brat let on.

In other words: synthesis really is the embodiment of "space magic".

truelly space magic at its finest

[KitaSaturnyne]

The more I talk about the Synthesis ending, the more I realize it sounds like I'm defending it. I'm actually questioning it, just to clarify to myself and whoever reads what I post.

One argument people are making against Synthesis is that it was Saren's goal in ME1. And while I see how Saren's "strengths of both, weaknesses of neither" / "final evolution" speech could be seen that way, I don't think synthesis was Saren's goal at all. I believe his goal changed, but I don't think Synthesis was his aim.

On Virmire, he states that his goal was to appease the Reapers through the subjugation of organic life. He wanted to convince the Reapers to keep organics around as slaves, his argument being that the less an organic mind is indoctrinated, the more useful it would be. That way we'd be subjugated to a race of unstoppable machines, but at least we'd be alive. (On a side note, this foreshadowed the Collectors in ME2. Well, for me, it did.)

On the Citadel, just before the final battle, he does indeed talk about how he's now part machine, but I believe that's all he's saying. He doesn't seem to indicate or express that he believes all organics should merge with machines, he just tells you that he's half-machine now and it's made him stronger. His goal of subjugation hasn't changed, just the terms of it have. He now seems to believe that organics should more closely resemble husks rather than have the kind of free will he once had. Whether or not that's the product of indoctrination doesn't really matter - his goal is still the same.

Furthermore, Saren hasn't experienced synthesis at this point, he's simply a Reaper technology-based cyborg.

So, am I missing something? While I'd love to think that I'm right and am elucidating people on a logical fallacy concerning their perceptions of the narrative, I'm hardly ever right.

As a final note, some small part of me longs for comments regarding the speculated profession of each other's matriarchal figures.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

KitaSaturnyne wrote...

The more I talk about the Synthesis ending, the more I realize it sounds like I'm defending it. I'm actually questioning it, just to clarify to myself and whoever reads what I post.

One argument people are making against Synthesis is that it was Saren's goal in ME1. And while I see how Saren's "strengths of both, weaknesses of neither" / "final evolution" speech could be seen that way, I don't think synthesis was Saren's goal at all. I believe his goal changed, but I don't think Synthesis was his aim.

On Virmire, he states that his goal was to appease the Reapers through the subjugation of organic life. He wanted to convince the Reapers to keep organics around as slaves, his argument being that the less an organic mind is indoctrinated, the more useful it would be. That way we'd be subjugated to a race of unstoppable machines, but at least we'd be alive. (On a side note, this foreshadowed the Collectors in ME2. Well, for me, it did.)

On the Citadel, just before the final battle, he does indeed talk about how he's now part machine, but I believe that's all he's saying. He doesn't seem to indicate or express that he believes all organics should merge with machines, he just tells you that he's half-machine now and it's made him stronger. His goal of subjugation hasn't changed, just the terms of it have. He now seems to believe that organics should more closely resemble husks rather than have the kind of free will he once had. Whether or not that's the product of indoctrination doesn't really matter - his goal is still the same.

Furthermore, Saren hasn't experienced synthesis at this point, he's simply a Reaper technology-based cyborg.

So, am I missing something? While I'd love to think that I'm right and am elucidating people on a logical fallacy concerning their perceptions of the narrative, I'm hardly ever right.

As a final note, some small part of me longs for comments regarding the speculated profession of each other's matriarchal figures.

I think the issue is that Synthesis is being offered to you by King Reaper as a solution. Even if the machines aren't literally around subjugating everyone, it's all of creation being pushed in a direction Starchild (who has just told you he controls the Reaper) demands. So you're bending every single being in the universe to suit the perverse wishes of the worst monster in the history of time. Even if he's not controlling them explicitly he gets the last laugh and fundamentally changes their very nature and future without asking... which is a kind of subjugation.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 03 mai 2012 - 02:55 .

[KitaSaturnyne]

edisnooM wrote...

@Hawk227

Not to interrupt your discussion but I think someone from Bioware stated that the "Crucible was Destroyed" critical mission failure was the "Reapers Win" ending. Which seems odd because it wasn't really an ending.

Nor would it seem to be conducive to the Reapers winning, seeing as they just destroyed their puppet master.

[delta_vee]

KitaSaturnyne wrote...

edisnooM wrote...

@Hawk227

Not to interrupt your discussion but I think someone from Bioware stated that the "Crucible was Destroyed" critical mission failure was the "Reapers Win" ending. Which seems odd because it wasn't really an ending.

Nor would it seem to be conducive to the Reapers winning, seeing as they just destroyed their puppet master.

Technically, the Crucible isn't the Catalyst. </nitpick>

Given the construction of the ending as a mostly-disconnected choice, and the possibility of choosing another color via autosave magic, no decision is permanent anyways.

[KitaSaturnyne]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

KitaSaturnyne wrote...

The more I talk about the Synthesis ending, the more I realize it sounds like I'm defending it. I'm actually questioning it, just to clarify to myself and whoever reads what I post.

One argument people are making against Synthesis is that it was Saren's goal in ME1. And while I see how Saren's "strengths of both, weaknesses of neither" / "final evolution" speech could be seen that way, I don't think synthesis was Saren's goal at all. I believe his goal changed, but I don't think Synthesis was his aim.

On Virmire, he states that his goal was to appease the Reapers through the subjugation of organic life. He wanted to convince the Reapers to keep organics around as slaves, his argument being that the less an organic mind is indoctrinated, the more useful it would be. That way we'd be subjugated to a race of unstoppable machines, but at least we'd be alive. (On a side note, this foreshadowed the Collectors in ME2. Well, for me, it did.)

On the Citadel, just before the final battle, he does indeed talk about how he's now part machine, but I believe that's all he's saying. He doesn't seem to indicate or express that he believes all organics should merge with machines, he just tells you that he's half-machine now and it's made him stronger. His goal of subjugation hasn't changed, just the terms of it have. He now seems to believe that organics should more closely resemble husks rather than have the kind of free will he once had. Whether or not that's the product of indoctrination doesn't really matter - his goal is still the same.

Furthermore, Saren hasn't experienced synthesis at this point, he's simply a Reaper technology-based cyborg.

So, am I missing something? While I'd love to think that I'm right and am elucidating people on a logical fallacy concerning their perceptions of the narrative, I'm hardly ever right.

As a final note, some small part of me longs for comments regarding the speculated profession of each other's matriarchal figures.

I think the issue is that Synthesis is being offered to you by King Reaper as a solution. Even if the machines aren't literally around subjugating everyone, it's all of creation being pushed in a direction Starchild (who has just told you he controls the Reaper) demands. So you're bending every single being in the universe to suit the perverse wishes of the worst monster in the history of time. Even if he's not controlling them explicitly he gets the last laugh and fundamentally changes their very nature and future without asking... which is a kind of subjugation.

Indeed.

On yet another note concerning this, the Reapers were shown to be a hybrid of organic and synthetic material. I wonder if that then means that everyone is made into a miniature Reaper? Maybe just Reaper analogues? It might make for an interesting in-universe autobiographical book: "The Day I Became a Reaper".

[M0keys]

How does being part synthetic stop a future synthetic race from whiping out all life in the galaxy?

far as I can tell, the hypothetical murder-bots kill the galaxy because they feel superior, not because they have an inexplicable grudge against organics.

there's still nothing stopping a fully synthetic race from genociding the galaxy...

Modifié par M0keys, 03 mai 2012 - 03:09 .

[edisnooM]

Or "So You've Become a Reaper.", and "How I learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Reapers" :-)

[KitaSaturnyne]

delta_vee wrote...

KitaSaturnyne wrote...

edisnooM wrote...

@Hawk227

Not to interrupt your discussion but I think someone from Bioware stated that the "Crucible was Destroyed" critical mission failure was the "Reapers Win" ending. Which seems odd because it wasn't really an ending.

Nor would it seem to be conducive to the Reapers winning, seeing as they just destroyed their puppet master.

Technically, the Crucible isn't the Catalyst. </nitpick>

Given the construction of the ending as a mostly-disconnected choice, and the possibility of choosing another color via autosave magic, no decision is permanent anyways.

Heh, what I meant was that I always assumed that the final vista was the connecting point between the Crucible and the Citadel. Still, with the Crucible locked so snugly onto their master's home, it seems like the Reapers would still not want to fire in that general direction. Try to destroy one, and you risk destroying the other, sort of thing.

[edisnooM]

M0keys wrote...

How does being synthetic stop a future synthetic race from whiping out all life in the galaxy?

far as I can tell, the hypothetical murder-bots kill the galaxy because they feel superior, not because they have an inexplicable grudge against organics.

there's still nothing stopping a fully synthetic race from genociding the galaxy...

I have heard the defense that all matter in the galaxy is now part organic and synthetic which would prevent that from happening, but the ramifications of this are mind boggling. 

Edit: Can't believe I used our instead of are. Fixed now and I appreciate no one calling me out on that.

Modifié par edisnooM, 03 mai 2012 - 03:50 .

[KitaSaturnyne]

edisnooM wrote...

Or "So You've Become a Reaper.", and "How I learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Reapers" :-)

I could see the former being a pamplet at Planned Parenthood or something.

"Chicken Soup for the Reaper's Soul", maybe?

[RollaWarden]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Goddamit, I do not have time to write an essay about all the different ways that narrative design departments can be structured in the game industry. Guys, stop making me want to write long essays about things.

In short: the job of "guy who makes sure it all fits together" does exist, in various varieties, throughout the industry. What kind of a job it should be, who should do it, and how they should do it are all either hotly debated or completely ignored.

Ah--but you MUST write such an essay, CGG.  You must.

Okay, you don't have to.  But I'm thinking that you, CGG, could do such an essay the justice it deserves.
And yes, I'm nudging.

What we're coming to, and around, and tunneling under, and at times vaulting over, it seems to me, is this new heuristic for game study.  Everyone in this thread, individually in their posts, and collectively, too, have been rejecting the false choice of ludology vs. narratology, arguing instead that the model--that heuristic--for game study rests more accurately in an integrated paradigm which describes narrative while also accounting for mechanic.  This storytelling medium--and here comes rolling in my staggering vicegrip on the obvious--is simply different.  The old narrative rules don't apply. 

Mass Effect has given me (many of us?) the most (or one of the most) compelling texts--and I mean texts in the critical literacy sense--on which to examine/construct our tautologies of the ludology/narrotology fusion.

Then the trilogy's ending sent us critically spinning.  And in our attempts to pull back on the throttle, to bring the ship back square with the horizon, and escape the crushing G's--we've created something critically important here.  

Maybe?  You think?  Or ...I dunno...

One last note:  I become saddened at the occasional trolls and flamers in this, our thread.  Not angry.  Just...deeply saddened.  I want to say to them, in that dad-ish, teacherly way that I think is oh so empathetic,

"You...really don't understand the power of this medium, do you?  What it...and art...do for us?  About how it holds back the abyss?" 

And if they don't understand, they'll not see how the ME3 ending WAS the abyss.  IS the abyss.  And that it just can't be.  Not this game.  Not this story.  Not this.  And oooooh, yes.  This game, and art, really ARE that powerful.  I am nearly always saddend by the art-less.

Sigh.  Ramblings of a old gamer..  "Night, all.

Cheers--

Modifié par RollaWarden, 03 mai 2012 - 03:14 .

[delta_vee]

KitaSaturnyne wrote...

Heh, what I meant was that I always assumed that the final vista was the connecting point between the Crucible and the Citadel. Still, with the Crucible locked so snugly onto their master's home, it seems like the Reapers would still not want to fire in that general direction. Try to destroy one, and you risk destroying the other, sort of thing.

I figure it's a matter of the Reapers pushing close enough to the Citadel/Crucible assembly to get a clean shot. Some of those Reapers blasting away while you're talking with the starkid are really close...

[M0keys]

edisnooM wrote...

M0keys wrote...

How does being synthetic stop a future synthetic race from whiping out all life in the galaxy?

far as I can tell, the hypothetical murder-bots kill the galaxy because they feel superior, not because they have an inexplicable grudge against organics.

there's still nothing stopping a fully synthetic race from genociding the galaxy...

I have heard the defense that all matter in the galaxy is now part organic and synthetic which would prevent that from happening, but the ramifications of this our mind boggling. 

but even the hybrids can still create fully synthetic, ultra powerful sentient killdroids that see "everything else as inferior" and then wipe out the galaxy again.

synthesis ... doesn't do much except rape people's bodies with circuitry and veiny bits.

Modifié par M0keys, 03 mai 2012 - 03:17 .

[DrowNoble]

Over 2 months after its release and the bad written ending is still resonating. I read the entire opening post and it was well written. If I could I would copy it and hand deliver it to Mac Walters and Casey Hudson.

Since Bioware's stubborness (or arrogance) will not let them change the ending, we can get one good thing out of this. That other companies will see what NOT to do to a story-based franchise. If Bioware refuses to learn from their mistake, others will.

I think EA is aware that this is a problem, hence the N7 weekends to distract us from the single player game. The freebie SWTOR weekends and the recently added free month for subs, to draw attention to another Bioware game. Heck, EA even contacted me via email and requested that I call them (I'm not kidding). After a lovely conversation, they let me return my PC copy for a refund. Honestly, if EA was 100% behind Bioware's asinine "artistic integrity" claims, they wouldn't of given me a full refund.

Remember people: HOLD THE LINE

[edisnooM]

M0keys wrote...

edisnooM wrote...

M0keys wrote...

How does being synthetic stop a future synthetic race from whiping out all life in the galaxy?

far as I can tell, the hypothetical murder-bots kill the galaxy because they feel superior, not because they have an inexplicable grudge against organics.

there's still nothing stopping a fully synthetic race from genociding the galaxy...

I have heard the defense that all matter in the galaxy is now part organic and synthetic which would prevent that from happening, but the ramifications of this are mind boggling. 

but even the hybrids can still create fully synthetics, ultra powerful sentient killdroids that see "everything else as inferior" and then wipe out the galaxy again.

synthesis ... doesn't do much except rape people's bodies with circuitry and veiny bits.

I agree, Synthesis as it is provides very little to support itself as the solution to the problem the Catalyst presents us with. Mass Effect has always seemed to try and explain itself in some capacity or another, at the very least in that Star Trek "Acme Tachyon Device" kind of way, but then we're given this and it really doesn't make a lot of sense.

It seems like, and this is the first time I've used this phrase, Space Magic. 

Modifié par edisnooM, 03 mai 2012 - 03:49 .

[delta_vee]

RollaWarden wrote...

Then the trilogy's ending sent us critically spinning.  And in our attempts to pull back on the throttle, to bring the ship back square with the horizon, and escape the crushing G's--we've created something critically important here.

That's exactly the reason why, despite my waning affection for the game itself, I'm still fascinated by the critical implications. Thanks for wording it so well.

M0keys wrote...

synthesis ... doesn't do much except rape people's bodies with circuitry and veiny bits.

To actually achieve the peace it promises, it'd have to rape people's minds.

The precedent ME has already set within itself, as our understanding and interaction with synthetics grows through the three games, is that the differences are less about the bodies and the hardware, and more about the divergent, occasionally alien theories of mind the two sides represent. I thought the quirks and cadences of Legion's dialogue in ME2 were rather interesting as a window into a consciousness which functioned in so different a manner. (I was mildly disappointed in the direction they took with Legion's individualization at the end of Rannoch.) EDI's growing understanding of the organics she interacts with and befriends through ME2 and ME3 are occasionally cliched, but show a progressive change in not only her theory of organic minds, but her own.

For synthesis to make any level of conflict go away, it would have to (forcibly, immediately) impart such an understanding on everyone, all at once. Mass mind-rape. Glorious.

[KitaSaturnyne]

delta_vee wrote...

I figure it's a matter of the Reapers pushing close enough to the Citadel/Crucible assembly to get a clean shot. Some of those Reapers blasting away while you're talking with the starkid are really close...

That's true. It's something of a wonder to me that in a battle of that magnitude, more shots don't come right at the Citadel or Crucible. With so many people fighting, the danger of a stray or missed shot really increases.

[KitaSaturnyne]

delta_vee wrote...

(snip, snip, snip)

For synthesis to make any level of conflict go away, it would have to (forcibly, immediately) impart such an understanding on everyone, all at once. Mass mind-rape. Glorious.

You have to admit though, that the concept of coerced sexual interaction with another being's very consciousness is very compelling to say the least.

[Xarathox]

M0keys wrote...

edisnooM wrote...

M0keys wrote...

How does being synthetic stop a future synthetic race from whiping out all life in the galaxy?

far as I can tell, the hypothetical murder-bots kill the galaxy because they feel superior, not because they have an inexplicable grudge against organics.

there's still nothing stopping a fully synthetic race from genociding the galaxy...

I have heard the defense that all matter in the galaxy is now part organic and synthetic which would prevent that from happening, but the ramifications of this our mind boggling. 

but even the hybrids can still create fully synthetics, ultra powerful sentient killdroids that see "everything else as inferior" and then wipe out the galaxy again.

synthesis ... doesn't do much except rape people's bodies with circuitry and veiny bits.

Synthesis does more than that. It rapes time and space, as well as the very essence of existence, if you go by only what star-brat said.

While control and destroy do precisely what is explained ( though I must admit how all AIs are targeted and not all technology is beyond me ) synthesis would have to destroy time and space while preserving everyones conciousness, and then transfer everyones said conciousness to an alternate universe where the possibilty of that specific level of existance has occured.

If a green light could cause such a drastic genetic and molecular change instantly then mankind would already be something beyond what we currently are. We have, and still do, experiment heavily with all forms of light in both the visible and invisible spectrums.

[M0keys]

delta_vee wrote...

RollaWarden wrote...

Then the trilogy's ending sent us critically spinning.  And in our attempts to pull back on the throttle, to bring the ship back square with the horizon, and escape the crushing G's--we've created something critically important here.

That's exactly the reason why, despite my waning affection for the game itself, I'm still fascinated by the critical implications. Thanks for wording it so well.

M0keys wrote...

synthesis ... doesn't do much except rape people's bodies with circuitry and veiny bits.

To actually achieve the peace it promises, it'd have to rape people's minds.

The precedent ME has already set within itself, as our understanding and interaction with synthetics grows through the three games, is that the differences are less about the bodies and the hardware, and more about the divergent, occasionally alien theories of mind the two sides represent. I thought the quirks and cadences of Legion's dialogue in ME2 were rather interesting as a window into a consciousness which functioned in so different a manner. (I was mildly disappointed in the direction they took with Legion's individualization at the end of Rannoch.) EDI's growing understanding of the organics she interacts with and befriends through ME2 and ME3 are occasionally cliched, but show a progressive change in not only her theory of organic minds, but her own.

For synthesis to make any level of conflict go away, it would have to (forcibly, immediately) impart such an understanding on everyone, all at once. Mass mind-rape. Glorious.

"We can't figure out a way to resolve the conflict. Therefore oogie boogie boogie, alakazam, everyone's in love now. Forever. Rape is so wonderful! THE END"

[delta_vee]

KitaSaturnyne wrote...

You have to admit though, that the concept of coerced sexual interaction with another being's very consciousness is very compelling to say the least.

Compelling as Lovecraftian horror? Sure. Made the Reapers into something more than Mechasquidzilla.

[drayfish]

Great discussion, everyone, as always.

Just wanted to add: I find the whole idea of synthesis distasteful because it presents itself as an answer to a question that wasn't being asked. Simply eradicating difference is no surety that life won't snuff itself out. All the Krogan were genetically the same, but they still descended into chaos and factional violence. The Geth were identical, but a disagreement in programming splintered them into warring tribes. (And let's not even get into the raging conflicts in real world politics based upon variations of ideology.) As delta_vee suggests, unless synthesis also obliterates individual thought, it answers nothing except an imagined biological distinction imposed by Dennis-the-Space-Menace.

Modifié par drayfish, 03 mai 2012 - 03:35 .

[M0keys]

drayfish wrote...

...unless synthesis also obliterates individual thought...

i can't imagine it doing anything else, to be honest. it's the only way the ending solves the very last second syn-v-org "throughline" (as Grub likes to call it)