5087 réponses à ce sujet

[GeoFukari]

Xarathox wrote...

M0keys wrote...

edisnooM wrote...

M0keys wrote...

How does being synthetic stop a future synthetic race from whiping out all life in the galaxy?

far as I can tell, the hypothetical murder-bots kill the galaxy because they feel superior, not because they have an inexplicable grudge against organics.

there's still nothing stopping a fully synthetic race from genociding the galaxy...

I have heard the defense that all matter in the galaxy is now part organic and synthetic which would prevent that from happening, but the ramifications of this our mind boggling. 

but even the hybrids can still create fully synthetics, ultra powerful sentient killdroids that see "everything else as inferior" and then wipe out the galaxy again.

synthesis ... doesn't do much except rape people's bodies with circuitry and veiny bits.

Synthesis does more than that. It rapes time and space, as well as the very essence of existence, if you go by only what star-brat said.

While control and destroy do precisely what is explained ( though I must admit how all AIs are targeted and not all technology is beyond me ) synthesis would have to destroy time and space while preserving everyones conciousness, and then transfer everyones said conciousness to an alternate universe where the possibilty of that specific level of existance has occured.

If a green light could cause such a drastic genetic and molecular change instantly then mankind would already be something beyond what we currently are. We have, and still do, experiment heavily with all forms of light in both the visible and invisible spectrums.

Lets also bring up the point that the Milky Way is not the only galaxy with life. So if in the trillions of other galaxies there holds life, we are not only effecting the inhabitents of our galaxy (Turians, Asari, Human), but ANY other living being in the universe. The fact that a race that only exists in ONE galaxy can effect the entirety of the universe is... disturbing. Think of the implications. That means that It would be just as easy for other races in those Galaxies to do something eqaully as devestating as this.

[M0keys]

eventually... big space between galaxies and there (probably) aren't any relays in them since the reapers tend to just like our galaxy.

i mean, there's no way to know, but there's nothing to indicate the reapers went anywhere else..

[Pattonesque]

I found it awful strange that the idea of "human dominance vs. galactic cooperation" wasn't even addressed in the ending. That was the crux of the Big Moral Choice at the end of both 1 and 2, wasn't it? That's really where I figured this was heading, but I suppose not.

I don't know where this synthesis malarkey fits into the Grand Human Empire, quite honestly.

Modifié par Pattonesque, 03 mai 2012 - 03:53 .

[M0keys]

it was a theme but since Shepard is mankind, it's really more about Shepard either doing it all by himself (galaxy be damned) or doing it with others

full renegade shepard doesn't really even need other people. unless it's someone who flies him around, you know?

Modifié par M0keys, 03 mai 2012 - 03:53 .

[edisnooM]

In other threads discussing the ending, I've mentioned that if Synthesis is altering minds to achieve "peace" then does that mean that we are effectively "Indoctrinating" the entire galaxy?

Modifié par edisnooM, 03 mai 2012 - 03:59 .

[M0keys]

yes. and then just for good measure, rewriting the entire physical galaxy to make sure nothing new ever arises again.

or something. it's ghastly.

[Janeaba-]

edisnooM wrote...

In other threads discussing the ending, I've mentioned that if Synthesis is altering minds to achieve "peace" then does that mean that we are effectively "Indoctrinating" the entire galaxy?

:wizard::wizard::wizard::wizard::wizard::wizard::wizard:

[delta_vee]

Pattonesque wrote...

I found it awful strange that the idea of "human dominance vs. galactic cooperation" wasn't even addressed in the ending. That was the crux of the Big Moral Choice at the end of both 1 and 2, wasn't it? That's really where I figured this was heading, but I suppose not.

I don't know where this synthesis malarkey fits into the Grand Human Empire, quite honestly.

None of it fits into the Grand Human Empire, since there isn't a choice sequence to:
- use the other races to help you build the Crucible
- take it to Earth with a human-only fleet
- fire the thing and keep the Citadel (and those tasty Reaper corpses full of tech) to yourself

[edisnooM]

I was just thinking, surely some of these thoughts must have come to the writers? I mean they wrote this, so surely they would have considered at least some of these implications?

[Pattonesque]

edisnooM wrote...

I was just thinking, surely some of these thoughts must have come to the writers? I mean they wrote this, so surely they would have considered at least some of these implications?

That's why the "this was rushed" explanation seems the most persuasive one to me. Give them six more months and I bet we'd get something far more coherent.

[uwyz]

drayfish wrote...



Great discussion, everyone, as always.



Just wanted to add: I find the whole idea of synthesis distasteful because it presents itself as an answer to a question that wasn't being asked. Simply eradicating difference is no surety that life won't snuff itself out. All the Krogan were genetically the same, but they still descended into chaos and factional violence. The Geth were identical, but a disagreement in programming splintered them into warring tribes. (And let's not even get into the raging conflicts in real world politics based upon variations of ideology.) As delta_vee suggests, unless synthesis also obliterates individual thought, it answers nothing except an imagined biological distinction imposed by Dennis-the-Space-Menace.

Well, if you try hard enough, every hole in this story can be explained. Synthesis is no different.

The catalyst states that the cycle began as a solution to the "organics creating synthetics that eradicate
organics" problem - apparently a very popular ploy in science fiction, I was told. Synthetics can do this, because they possess inherent advantage over organics - being immortal, and being able to evolve at a much faster rate (by just generating random bits in their core programming at the 'speed of light' processing speeds). Being synthetic constructs, they are also alien to the concept of pity, restraint and unfamiliar with the moral concept that every sentient life has value and dignity. (Although Edi is able to learn it with Shepard’s help,).

So synthesis may just even the odds by letting organics have an equal footing in competition with synthetics. Violence, bigotry and factional strive is not eliminated, and diversity is not destroyed - but now no one race (synthetics) have the overwhelming power to destroy all other races (organics). The dreaded reapers are no longer necessary to "safeguard" diversity because the inherent power equilibrium in the existing races would guarantee that.

But this doesn't change the fact that the ending's plot is "thematically revolting". The catalyst's dissertation is that
organics and synthetics cannot coexist - a view challenged by the cooperation between Shepard and the Geth, and if you played your cards right, by the romance between Joker and Edi, and the surprising friendship between Tali and Legion. Shepard didn't even bother to dispute the Catalyst, or chastise it for the abominable solution it devised. One can assume that he accepted the catalyst's premise - and that is problematic.

Synthesis is also problematic in that it challenges the notion that all races have the right to determine their own
future and their paths, that a civilization's evolution and course should not be dictated by another. 

And in the end, why do the relays have to be destroyed? My first instinctive reaction on witnessing the end is that
"Shepard destroyed galactic civilization as we know it". In my opinion, what made this world so vibrant and irresistable is the exchange and peaceful coexistence between different cultures and races. The mingling of
different species is not perfect, and relationships were testy (see human & turians, krogan & salarians) but in many ways, the world resembles the ideal of a multi-cultural society that liberalism aspire to. By destroying the
one thing that is critical to communication and transport, the author doomed this world. The cross-species friendship, cooperation and empathy that Shepard & co fought so hard to preserve are now condemned (perhaps forever) as each world is isolated by the insurmountable barrier of distance. The gap of distrust of prejudice the main characters (Mordin, Liara, Garrus and the rest) sought to bridge by their acts of nobility, compassion and sacrifice, are now reopened by physical obstacles.

I understand that if you choose destroy, then the mass relays' destruction is logical and perhaps inevitable, because all reaper creations must also be destroyed. But if you chose synthesis, then you have already accepted the catalyst's very intrusive modification of all life forms - so why must the relays have to go as well? Whoever wrote the ending evidently do not appreciate ME's celebration of cultural exchange and diversity.

Modifié par uwyz, 03 mai 2012 - 04:43 .

[delta_vee]

Pattonesque wrote...

edisnooM wrote...

I was just thinking, surely some of these thoughts must have come to the writers? I mean they wrote this, so surely they would have considered at least some of these implications?

That's why the "this was rushed" explanation seems the most persuasive one to me. Give them six more months and I bet we'd get something far more coherent.

Wasn't just a matter of rushing. It was, IMO, a failure of project management.

The conclusion of a hundred-hour trilogy, and you leave development of the endgame to the last minute? Um, shouldn't you be doing that first, and moulding the game around it?

[Sable Phoenix]

"Geth build our own future. The heretics ask the Old Machines to give them the future."

The single most damning line against the Synthesis ending in the whole trilogy.  Because after all, what is the Crucible actually doing in Synthesis, if not that very thing?

Modifié par Sable Phoenix, 03 mai 2012 - 04:41 .

[delta_vee]

uwyz wrote...

...And in the end, why does the relays have to be destroyed? My first instinctive reaction on witnessing the end is that "Shepard destroyed galactic civilization as we know it".

Pretty much this.

I cannot imagine the furore would've reached the fever pitch it did if the relays were left intact. For all the revulsion at the choices of the endgame, the destruction of the icons of the series were what sealed the deal.

'Tis a pity. And to think, with all the Crucible Macguffinery, the superweapon the devs needed was staring them in the face. One of my disappointments with the game at large was that the (to me) obvious solution was to invert the Reapers' relay lockout. Would've bookended the first game nicely, could've brought back the keepers, and still allowed for an excuse to bring the fleets to bear on Earth.

[edisnooM]

Sable Phoenix wrote...

"Geth build our own future. The heretics ask the Old Machines to give them the future."

The single most damning line against the Synthesis ending in the whole trilogy.

I agree, a compelling point. The sentiment was slightly ruined however with the Rannoch arc in ME3.

[Sable Phoenix]

edisnooM wrote...

Sable Phoenix wrote...

"Geth build our own future. The heretics ask the Old Machines to give them the future."

The single most damning line against the Synthesis ending in the whole trilogy.

I agree, a compelling point. The sentiment was slightly ruined however with the Rannoch arc in ME3.

I can't agree.  The Reapers attempted, once they saw the heretic geth were no longer in the equation, to forcibly subjugate the entire race, just as they do with organics.  The geth, once freed, rejected this for a second time, and despite using Old Machine code to accomplish it, actualized their own future on their own terms in order to achieve true individuality.

Granted, I would argue that this wipes out the most unique and interesting aspects of their alien intelligence... the geth became a much less interesting race to me the instant they achieved "true sentience", a phrase I was frankly shocked to hear used, since the entirety of Legion's conversations in the second game reinforced the fact that, just because they are Life As We Don't Know It, doesn't make them any less a legitimate lifeform.

That's beside the point, though.  The point is that, even though they used a shortcut, the geth got their on their own.  If you chose the Rewrite option, there is almost no difference between what Shepard did to them then, and what Legion did to them on Rannoch.

Modifié par Sable Phoenix, 03 mai 2012 - 04:52 .

[edisnooM]

delta_vee wrote...

uwyz wrote...

...And in the end, why does the relays have to be destroyed? My first instinctive reaction on witnessing the end is that "Shepard destroyed galactic civilization as we know it".

Pretty much this.

I cannot imagine the furore would've reached the fever pitch it did if the relays were left intact. For all the revulsion at the choices of the endgame, the destruction of the icons of the series were what sealed the deal.

'Tis a pity. And to think, with all the Crucible Macguffinery, the superweapon the devs needed was staring them in the face. One of my disappointments with the game at large was that the (to me) obvious solution was to invert the Reapers' relay lockout. Would've bookended the first game nicely, could've brought back the keepers, and still allowed for an excuse to bring the fleets to bear on Earth.

Sorry maybe I'm missing something what exactly would that do?

For myself I assumed it would be some sort of super-bomb that would lure the Reapers into a trap and depending on your EMS more Reapers would be destroyed, and allied forces survive, its deployment.

[edisnooM]

Sable Phoenix wrote...

edisnooM wrote...

Sable Phoenix wrote...

"Geth build our own future. The heretics ask the Old Machines to give them the future."

The single most damning line against the Synthesis ending in the whole trilogy.

I agree, a compelling point. The sentiment was slightly ruined however with the Rannoch arc in ME3.

I can't agree.  The Reapers attempted, once they saw the heretic geth were no longer in the equation, to forcibly subjugate the entire race, just as they do with organics.  The geth, once freed, rejected this for a second time, and despite using Old Machine code to accomplish it, actualized their own future on their own terms in order to achieve true individuality (although granted, I would argue that this wipes out the most unique and interesting aspects of their alien intelligence).

Legion made it sound like the Reapers offered and the Geth for the sake of self-preservation accepted, it didn't sound forced.

I just thought it was odd that after Legion commented on my destroying the Collector base that I was more like them than they thought, they would use the Reaper tech to upgrade themselves.

I don't mind because I like Legion and the Geth, and I like the fact that they are now individuals, but it seemed a bit contrary to what we knew at least about Legion.

[Iakus]

edisnooM wrote...

In other threads discussing the ending, I've mentioned that if Synthesis is altering minds to achieve "peace" then does that mean that we are effectively "Indoctrinating" the entire galaxy?

And this is why the ultimate irony would be, after Shepard has killed him/herself and Synthesized everyone and everything, the Starchild's eyes flash and in a deep., Harbinger-like voice, declares to the galaxy:

ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL

[delta_vee]

edisnooM wrote...

Sorry maybe I'm missing something what exactly would that do?

For myself I assumed it would be some sort of super-bomb that would lure the Reapers into a trap and depending on your EMS more Reapers would be destroyed, and allied forces survive, its deployment.

Given the Crucible as-is, what you describe is what I expected, too.

The relay-lockout-inversion thing would replace the Crucible/Citadel macguffin. (And really, the sudden takeover and movement of the Citadel was a leftover of when the coup was post-Thessia.) By locking the Reapers out of the relay network, you get to apply the same divide-and-conquer approach the Reapers themselves used in previous cycles, a) making conventional warfare more feasible, gives the possibility of, well suing for peace (for the paragon-inclined), and c) ties in both Sovereign's modus operandi from ME1 and the whole Reaper IFF bit from ME2.

[delta_vee]

Sable Phoenix wrote...

Granted, I would argue that this wipes out the most unique and interesting aspects of their alien intelligence... the geth became a much less interesting race to me the instant they achieved "true sentience", a phrase I was frankly shocked to hear used, since the entirety of Legion's conversations in the second game reinforced the fact that, just because they are Life As We Don't Know It, doesn't make them any less a legitimate lifeform.

That was where the Rannoch arc lost me. Legion having to sacrifice himself for...some reason...merely cemented it.

The permutation where you deny Legion uploading the code, though, was well-done. Hurt to keep pulling that trigger.

[edisnooM]

delta_vee wrote...

edisnooM wrote...

Sorry maybe I'm missing something what exactly would that do?

For myself I assumed it would be some sort of super-bomb that would lure the Reapers into a trap and depending on your EMS more Reapers would be destroyed, and allied forces survive, its deployment.

Given the Crucible as-is, what you describe is what I expected, too.

The relay-lockout-inversion thing would replace the Crucible/Citadel macguffin. (And really, the sudden takeover and movement of the Citadel was a leftover of when the coup was post-Thessia.) By locking the Reapers out of the relay network, you get to apply the same divide-and-conquer approach the Reapers themselves used in previous cycles, a) making conventional warfare more feasible, gives the possibility of, well suing for peace (for the paragon-inclined), and c) ties in both Sovereign's modus operandi from ME1 and the whole Reaper IFF bit from ME2.

Hmm that would've been interesting. But don't the Reapers have fairly fast FTL? It would be slower but couldn't they still access other systems? I'm not an astrophysicist so forgive me if this is a stupid counter-point.

[Hawk227]

@delta_vee

delta_vee wrote...


I'd argue that the dream-like section between Harbinger and Conduit is specifically meant to evoke the cinematic, slow-motion, hero-arises-after-near-defeat sequences drilled into our brains by dozens of movies. Once the Citadel is reached, Shepard's still limping but the slow-mo is gone. Thinking it's anything but a stylistic choice seems like making the data fit the hypothesis.

I would say that is the most overtly dream-like part, but for me the following scenes were totally bizarre as well. The search for the console with Anderson in particular. He describes finding landmarks, as Shepard is finding them. Based on his descriptions of where he is, we should be able to see him run across the bridge and up the ramp. Then there is TIM controlling Shepard and Anderson, the magic elevator, and the ghostly presence of the catalyst, the sense of awe the music and lighting seemed to convey, and Shepard's inability to question the Catalyst at all. The same shepard that headbutted a krogan! (as Drayfish mentioned a while back). Maybe I was just feeling the conditioning of those fade to white seques.

I don't think the mistakes were subtle, either. But from BW's POV, destroy had to carry extra baggage, if only to get people to stop and weigh their options. There are some who buy into synthesis, filling BW's information void with speculations of their own, and are fine with it. Others choose control because for them, sacrificing a principle is better than sacrificing a friend. (Also, it should be noted that control is the only option wherein the Citadel survives.) These are the arguments the player is meant to have within themselves, while limping towards the RGB machine.

Always remember: de gustibus non disputandum est.

I had to look that up. You and I did not get the same classical education.

This (bold) is my point. That Bioware thought that was necessary to make people consider the alternatives, it meant they saw the inherent failures in those alternatives. By including the Geth, they were twisting our (a huge chunk of the audience anyway) arms into considering what we were happy to discard. It seems bizarre to me that bioware would culminate the final installment of their magnum opus on what many (most?) people can agree was an obviously shallow and contrived decision. Each decision invalidates the (or an aspect of the ) journey in it's own way. We seem to agree this was forseeable. For them to do so anyway, and think it was fitting boggles my mind.

It depends on your definition of "lose". Under 1750 EMS, you have a single option (destroy, with the complications to IT that entails) which cauterizes the whole planet (and possibly, by implication, the galaxy). The Reapers go with it, but that feels even more like losing than the high-EMS endings.

Well, yes. My definition of lose is the cycle continuing unabated. We were never really given an in-game reason to care about Earth. Incidentally, I think this was why the intro was what it was, witnessing the Reapers take Earth as you retreated to Mars and later the Citadel, helpless. It was a contrived means of investing the Player in the return to Earth later. Back to point, I didn't really see a reason to think the galaxy was incinerated as well. Well, beyond the exploding relays that apparently didn't supernova. I view the <1750EMS as a Pyrrhic victory. Earth is lost, but the galaxy is spared and free of the torment of the Reapers. As worst case scenarios go, that looks pretty nice.

I think the backlash would've been far, far worse had IT's conclusion been implemented within the framework of the current game. It's easier for fans to speculate on their own reactions as it stands, without feeling like they're actually, currently missing out on the Right Answer.

I'm not sure what that would have looked like. More importantly, I think it would have undermined the experience. I keep harping on it, but IT is about the experience of being indoctrinated. You don't even realize it happened. Sovereign didn't turn to Saren and say "Haha, you're indoctrinated! Now fetch me some Geth" he allowed Saren to continue doing what he thought was necessary. By having the reveal in game (in the following scene perhaps) there is no uncertainty. There is no speculation. I also think "speculation" was a significant word. Not debate, not argument, not dissent, not critique, and not frothing nerdrage. Speculation. If everything is as it was presented, where does speculation fit in?

If you want a sample, though, here's one (which isn't big, but may get people upset with me): the popularly-chosen version of Mordin's death is narratively indefensible and manipulative as all get out. Thematically effective, and they sure as hell made the scene evocative, but the only reason he dies in that permutation is to pluck at your heartstrings. The spire blowing up (slowly, WTF?) was a contrivance to give Mordin an excuse to sacrifice himself.

Consider the context: you need all the support you can. The greater good demands it. Curing the genophage can wait; there are no scores to settle if the Reapers win. The Salarians can be haggled with afterwards, but you need their fleets now. You need every fleet now.

Remember that Rosencrantz & Guildenstern Are Dead quote? "Events must play themselves out to aesthetic, moral and logical conclusion."

The only permutation of that scene which fits those criteria is for you to shoot Mordin in the back. All others are a cop-out.

I was a little annoyed that the control room was at the top of the (crumbling for no apparent reason) tower, but aside from that none of it really bothered me. It served the narrative (to me) and fit reasonably within the story. No, the genophage didn't need to be cured, but Wrex had a bargaining chip and he wasn't going to let it go to waste. So to get him on board, you had to cure it, and you needed him on board. The ME3 narrative in a vacuum was Shepard... er, shepherding (real subtle, Bioware) the galaxy together into a cohesive armada, and all the politics that involved. The actual scene of Mordin going up was a little cheesy and contrived, a forced show of him finding catharsis. I can see it as visually manipulative, but not wholly illogical. A wrong that he had helped aggravate needed to be undone, not just for the Krogan but for the galaxy, and since it was him or Shepard he needed to be the one to do it. Although, I have to say the "did s/he die?" moment that accompanied every single character got tired pretty quickly (and only seemed to work with Grunt).That said, I would hardly say it "screwed" the narrative.

I've long seen ME for what it was, a space opera, filled with little contrivances. You put on your suspension of disbelief pants and roll with punches. You could probably bring up more that I'm forgetting, but the only ones that felt inexcusable to me were 1) Shepard twiddling his thumbs and getting fat on Earth between Arrival and ME3. Somebody a few pages back posted an alternate intro that would have been much better. And 2) the guilt play with the child. Even my paragon shep was annoyed by them, I can't imagine how CG Girl's "Crow" would view them. Number 2 kind of ties into a post Drayfish made a while back. The same Shepard that did all those things is a sputtering mess at the beginning of the game, guilt-ridden over a single child (out of billions), and even going so far as to stare helplessly at Kaidan's injured frame until Liara has to point out that they should go to a Hospital. My Shepard was certainly not unfeeling, but he was unflinching. Also, he never really liked Kaidan. I chose Kaidan over Ashley because his powers were more useful. The way Bioware was so heavy-handed with his story arc was pretty annoying.

[delta_vee]

edisnooM wrote...
Hmm that would've been interesting. But don't the Reapers have fairly fast FTL? It would be slower but couldn't they still access other systems? I'm not an astrophysicist so forgive me if this is a stupid counter-point.

They have, essentially, double-speed never-refuel FTL. Which means a retreat on their part is still possible, but with Reaper forces scattered and unable to reform quickly, and with the galaxy relatively united (with full access to the relays), it would be a much different strategic position.
At which point, if the Reapers weren't suffering from plot-induced stupidity, would've been a perfect time for a nice one-on-one with Harbinger, to convince him/it/them/whatever to leave forever before we pick them off at leisure.

Just seems to me to be slightly more elegant, and with better ties to previous games, than the Crucible.

[Hawk227]

delta_vee wrote...

Sable Phoenix wrote...

Granted, I would argue that this wipes out the most unique and interesting aspects of their alien intelligence... the geth became a much less interesting race to me the instant they achieved "true sentience", a phrase I was frankly shocked to hear used, since the entirety of Legion's conversations in the second game reinforced the fact that, just because they are Life As We Don't Know It, doesn't make them any less a legitimate lifeform.

That was where the Rannoch arc lost me. Legion having to sacrifice himself for...some reason...merely cemented it.

The permutation where you deny Legion uploading the code, though, was well-done. Hurt to keep pulling that trigger.

I hadn't played ME2 in months prior to ME3, so I glossed over this in my original ME3 playthrough. That said, it not only goes against what made the Geth interesting, but against what legion said they wanted anyway (The Dyson sphere, where they could share memories and commune together). Now you've gone and partially spoiled the rannoch arc for me. Thanks.

@edisnoom

The milky way is 100k -120k light years across. At 30ly/day the Reapers could cross it in about 10 years. That still leaves many months in travel time between systems.

@ Delta_Vee

That would be more elegant. Though I'm not sure how it would play out in game. A couple additional missions of clearing out Palaven and Thessia, before giving Harbinger the option to beat it? What would prevent him from regrouping and returning in force?

Modifié par Hawk227, 03 mai 2012 - 05:24 .