5087 réponses à ce sujet

[Hawk227]

Sable Phoenix wrote...

Eh, the Mako's problems weren't the Mako's problems, they were the level designers' problems. Specifically, they were the problems of the fractal landscapes that looked like they came straight out of Bryce. I doubt you'll find anyone complaining about how the Mako handled on Therum, or Feros, or Noveria, or Asteroid X57, or Virmire, or even Ilos. The setpiece planets were all designed to give the Mako a path to follow... the unexplored worlds, on the other hand, were just kind of lazy. Every complaint the Mako gets is actually a complaint about the landscaping.

I couldn't agree more. I liked the mako, and even the exploring, just not the ridiculous topography.

I also think it's funny you mention Bryce. My High School computer science class had Bryce 5 and I spent more time playing with it than doing the actual assignments. Those fractal terrain maps were always what I thought of as I tried willing my Mako up an 85 degree incline to get to some prothean ruin or turian insignia.

[Sable Phoenix]

bc525 wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl, fair enough. I can see the aversion to Starkid. But what would you consider to be "your" Shepard? Paragon or Renegade? I guess my main point (if I have one) would be that the player's first experience to the ME3 ending counts as the true ending. That Shepard would be the player's default Shepard, that those initial choices from ME1 + ME2 + ME3 are somehow etched in stone.

I'm asking that specifically because I've seen you switch genders in various threads. In some cases your Shepard is a "he", but in other cases Shepard is a "she". In my humble opinion, Shepard needs to be clearly defined. What did your first Shepard choose to do when faced with the Catalyst?

I'm not trying to speak for CulturalGeekGirl here, but personally, I reject this premise.  My first Shepard no longer even exists.  I have a single Shepard now, and I can't play anyone else but her.  I've tried playing a different Shepard and it just feels off, somehow.  She is Shepard to me, and there cannot be any other.

My "true" Shepard has nothing to do, at this point, with my initial playthrough of any of the games (well, the first two at least... I haven't had the heart to play through ME3 more than once).  I have played through Mass Effects 1 and 2 often enough that I have a specific map laid out of the order in which my Shepard experiences the story.  I have enough familiarity with the dialogue wheels (I've lost count of the times I've quicksaved and reloaded to play through every option in a particular conversation) that I can usually remember what lines are said at what time, and base my choices in those conversations on the character of Shepard that has assembled herself in my head throughout my playthroughs.

So no, my first experience as a player is irrelevant.  My 'canon' Shepard is someone who has crafted the narrative around herself, within the options BioWare gave us to realize her personality.  As a player, I'm only a metagame tool to actualize that character within the universe.  My canon playthrough is, by this point, an established narrative, like re-reading a book.

[drayfish]

bc525 wrote...

[fish, you're alright.  If I could I'd buy you a beer.

Thanks, bc525. I feel the same.  And I would've loved to take you up on that beer.

[bc525]

Sable Phoenix, I really disagree with that sentiment. For me, replaying situations over and over strays far from my 'canon' character, and the "do-over" aspect only serves to trivialize my emotions. After all, if my character is in no danger of failing (meaning I know the ending), then where exactly is any tension? He becomes completely safe from any chance of failure, there are only varying degrees of success. Like I've stacked the deck.

To completely ignore my first playthrough just doesn't make sense to me. I think it's safe to say we're on opposite ends of the spectrum on this point.

Modifié par bc525, 04 mai 2012 - 08:50 .

[Keltikone]

To the OP, while your Lit Proff displays a superficial understanding of the dynamics between storyteller and audience, he just does not "get it". Hopefully the expanded ending, while not actually changing the overall experience of the ending that Bioware intended, will at least help him to "get it".

If the "get it" fails to take, some splendid DLC will with all likelyhood be available to purchase, which will at least help EA in thier overall goal of world domination.


The above post may contain traces of sarcasm.


And nuts.

[richard_rider]

My first playthrough is always a combo of rushed excitement and impatience. My second playthrough is always my main, I take my time, and explore everything.

[uwyz]

Seijin8 wrote...

@CulturalGeekGirl

I do not mean to argue your well-articulated point, because I generally agree with it. However, one thing I have learned through this thread and a few others on BSN is that the motivations that go into the decision trees are themselves open to multiple interpretations.

It is conceivable that a very cautious Paragon Shepard would never activate Legion, seeing it as unnecessarily dangerous and risky, and turns it over to Cerberus. (Probably wouldn't have decanted Grunt either.) Following this line of thinking, the Rannoch Collective encounter would have been the first brush with Geth as a non-hostile people, and this Shepard may have determined that a synthetic race was too risky to bring against the Reapers, and opted for their destruction in favor of the Quarians.

Accordingly, destroy loses much of its punch. Sure, EDI is destroyed, but if she was on the Conduit run, this Shepard might perceive her as already destroyed, or simply not weight her destruction as sufficient penalty for accomplishing the mission Anderson and Hacket sent Shepard to complete.

Even an intensely conscientious Shepard might ultimately see him/herself as a soldier, and follow the orders as given: the war ends with the extinction of the Reapers.

I don't mean to nitpick, and - once again - I agree with your overall point. But I do find it fascinating just how many "flavors" of Shepard have arisen from the essentially binary choices we have received throughout the story.

But don't you find it odd that story has to force you hand like that? Of all the ways this story could have panned out, it has to end in a way that forces the player to act against the themes established in the preceding 90% of the story? The themes I have in mind are the celebration of diversity, the plead for different races to reach out and overcome their mutual mistrust and prejudice through empathy, compassion and understanding - and by direct extension, the idea that all form of civilized life (regardless of their make) have value, dignity and right to self determine their paths.

Even assuming I have a Shepard who accepts the Catalyst's premise of technical singularity (that synthetics will inevitably overwhelm organics), and that this Shepard is mistrustful of synthetics, I'd argue that the story still forced me to act in a morally despicable way. The story had done a great job of portraying EDI and the Legion as humane beings, they both have a desire for life and acceptance (as is the Geth people, who wished to reach terms with organics), and they both went to great lengths to help Shepard in his/her quest. So forcing Shepard to kill the Geth in the destroy ending (or on Rannoch) raises serious questions: is this not murder? Is this not betrayal? While Shepard (and sometimes the player) may not regard EDI and the Legion as life-forms, EDI and Legion certainly did - and to them, what Shepard did is murder - and seeing how EDI and Legion are as intelligent and as humanized as any other character, the moral implication of their 'termination' cannot be simply dismissed. They both risked their own lives to assist Shepard in good faith, and Shepard's action constitutes the most repugnant betrayal and ingratitude (Shepard does not even show regret afterwards). 

The there is the fact that the relays were destroyed in all 3 endings. The destruction of the relays dooms the multi-cultural society that made the theme of diversity and tolerance possible. "Shepard Commander just destroyed galactic civilization as we know it". Life in the mass effect universe has been saved, but the highest ideal of that live, the qualities that made the mass effect such an endearing place is destroyed. I have seen a lot of pro-enders who are okay with wiping out synthetics ("it is no different than turning off your computer!"), but I haven seen anyone who thinks the post ME galatic dark age, with each world forever isolated, is preferable to the multi-cultural society before the reapers. 

(Most pro-enders will argue that it is possible to rebuild the relays or travel by FTL - but that is a whole different topic. My point is that no one wants a dark age).

I understand that Shepard didn't choose to destroy the relays - he/she had no choice. But the creaters of the series deliberately chose to end the story this way, without adequate explanation or preparation. So what am I to make out of what they are trying to tell me - that multiculturism is worth a d**? That murder, genocide and betrayal is an acceptable means to an end? Or that the writers are just sadists who like to watch the audience bleed a little? The implications are unpleasant. 

Modifié par uwyz, 04 mai 2012 - 09:03 .

[Seijin8]

bc525 wrote...

Sable Phoenix, I really disagree with that sentiment. For me, replaying situations over and over strays far from my 'canon' character, and the "do-over" aspect only serves to trivialize my emotions. After all, if my character is in no danger of failing (meaning I know the ending), then where exactly is any tension? He becomes completely safe from any chance of failure, there are only varying degrees of success. Like I've stacked the deck.

To completely ignore my first playthrough just doesn't make sense to me. I think it's safe to say we're on opposite ends of the spectrum on this point.

I'm not Sable Phoenix (surprise!), but I'd like to take a stab at this anyway:

I understand where you are coming from.  My initial playthrough of ME1 stands in stone as yours seems to.  However, my initial play of ME2 didn't end as well as I would have liked.  So I did it again, made a few different choices, and got everyone through, making it the Collector's suicide mission, instead of mine.  In my headcanon, *that* was the proper way to end the story.

This is a trait of the medium, I think.  In exchange for not always being able to plan, direct or articulate what I personally would like to have happen, I instead get the option to revisit decisions to see if there is a way to mold events closer to what *should* have happened.

Is it cheating?  Maybe.  But it is a way of mitigating a lack of diverse options.  *My* Shepard would have hit that Collector base with a paired skirmish line, Zaeed, Legion, Garrus and Grunt working the flanks while Jack, Samara and Miranda biotic exploded everything remotely bug-like in view.  Carefully chosen paragon/renegade options would have allowed me to pit Miranda's perfection against Jack's desire to show her up, increasing the effectiveness of both, and perhaps forging a respect between them.  Of course, if I'd had my way, I would have recovered the Mako from the Normandy crash site and that would have been bringing up the rear so that recovered crew would have an armored ride back to the Normandy.

But that wasn't an option.  Being able to "rewrite" is the best tradeoff I could accomplish.

[drayfish]

Seijin8 wrote...

Of course, if I'd had my way, I would have recovered the Mako from the Normandy crash site and that would have been bringing up the rear so that recovered crew would have an armored ride back to the Normandy.

Yay! Mako!

[CulturalGeekGirl]

bc525 wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl, fair enough. I can see the aversion to Starkid. But what would you consider to be "your" Shepard? Paragon or Renegade? I guess my main point (if I have one) would be that the player's first experience to the ME3 ending counts as the true ending. That Shepard would be the player's default Shepard, that those initial choices from ME1 + ME2 + ME3 are somehow etched in stone.

I'm asking that specifically because I've seen you switch genders in various threads. In some cases your Shepard is a "he", but in other cases Shepard is a "she". In my humble opinion, Shepard needs to be clearly defined. What did your first Shepard choose to do when faced with the Catalyst?

I use "he" for Shepard when I'm trying to emotionally distance myself from a situation, or make it more understandable to people who I don't think are as open to the fluidity of Shepard's identity.

I do have a main Shepard, and she's who I think of 99% of the time when I say Shepard... or she was, before the ending. First playthrough of every game.Jane Shepard: redhead, Vanguard,Spacer, War Hero. Loved Kaidan in ME1, loved Garrus in ME2 and 3. Greatest female science fiction character ever created.

Jane grew up as normal as you can on a space station... watching old vids. She was a huge fan of the SciFi vids of the early 2150s, when humanity had hope of exploring the stars and finding the benevolent Protheans out there somewhere, waiting for them. She had a lot of the kind of relationships kids have when they're all stuck together temporarily - short, fun, but not deep. She got into the military because it was expected, and she did her best. That's all she ever does.

They pinned some medals on her after Elysium, but she didn't really think she'd done anything out of the ordinary. She just did what everyone would do: fought as long and hard as she could to save as many people as she could. it's what any decent person would do. So they called her up to join N7, and she did. They wanted a poster girl... a nice, harmless human who would smile pretty for the cameras and do as she was told. Instead, they got a hero. Her priority wasn't the advancement of human goals, it was the improvement of the perception of humanity in the galaxy. She wanted to bring the rest of humanity into the galactic community, make everyone see that humans could be as brave and strong and honorable and true as anyone else.

Now she was out there, getting to do everything those 50s SciFi vids had lead her to dream of: meeting new aliens, making galactic peace, saving the day.  She met the Krogan who defied all Krogan stereotypes, the Turian who wanted so hard to do good but was always drifting slightly into shadow, the awesome engineering girl from the race of wanderers, the kindly archaeologist. She found a bug alien queen, remembered the summer she read Enders Game, and she saved it. Duh.

Eventually she kind of fell for the human guy on her ship. He had a troubled past, but it didn't control him. He was functioning, he was over it.. It hurt to lose Ash, but Ash knew the risks, and Ash was counting on her to win this thing. She leaned more and more on Kaidan, after that. He kept talking about how their love was all against the rules, and she'd just laugh at him. Who cares? We're pirates now! We're heroes! We can do what we want. It's the end of the world.

She brought Kaidan and Garrus with her on that last fight. Garrus deserved a chance to restore honor to his species, get his revenge, and Kaidan had become her moral compass. At the end, she almost hesitated, but Kaidan's recommendation and the excitement in Joker's voice swayed her, and she Saved the Destiny Ascension and talked Saren into offing himself.

And then she died, or almost died... it's all a little fuzzy now, really. She remembers pain, and then waking up cold and alone, the smell of antiseptic in the air. She only half remembers the fight, and the spy, and the strange, cold woman who declared her a project... or something like that. She felt a little more comfortable when she saw Joker at the helm, but she was still at the mercy of these Cerberus people. Still, there was a job to do, and she headed to Omega to get started.

She met Mordin and instantly felt at home again. She was back on her adventures, meeting awesome aliens and uniting the galaxy. She started to have hope again, hope that there was more to this new life than wriggling under Cerberus's thumb. So she went on to the next mission, Archangel. "I'm good," she thought "I can do this. New team. New adventure. " But when he turned around and took that helmet off, she was happier to see him than she could ever remember being to see anyone. He seemed genuinely happy to see her too, and not just because she was saving his life. A few minutes later, when he took that hit, she felt a rush of fear and despair. She'd finally gotten back a connection to who she used to be, to the hero's life she hadn't realized she was missing... was she going to lose it again now? But no... they saved him. He lived. Rocket to the face, and he lived.

That was when she got the Horizon call. Human colony under attack, and Kaidan was there. She wanted nothing more than to go there, to save him, to tell him she was alive and still loved him. She fought her way through that hell looking for him, and when that ship flew away, she was ready to chase it down, tear it open with her bare hands and get him back. Fortunately it didn't come to that, as he came sauntering back into her life for just long enough to tell her he didn't trust her anymore, and that he thought she was being manipulated.

That just made her mad. She had already died for her crew, and now she was twisting in the wind and uncertain and he was just going to walk away? She was handling things OK, she always handled things... but she needed support. Well, it was time to rely on her new family for support, because there was a job to do. She had to save all of humanity, and if he wasn't going to help, she'd write him off and do it alone if she had to.

Fortunately she didn't have to. Grunt, Samara, Thane, Tali, Jack, Zaeed, Kasumi... new friends, new family, new support. Before, she had sort of considered Kaidan her moral compass. Now she didn't need that anymore. Without him as a crutch, she was ever more certain in her path of just doing what was right. Yeah, OK, she blew up the occasional Krogan and tazed a merc in the back once or twice, but when the chips were down, she always went in the direction of truth, tolerance, and justice. She saved Maelon's data, introduced Grunt to Wrex, and helped Samara hunt down her daughter.

There came one moment when something gave her pause. Garrus came to her with something he needed, or thought he needed: revenge. At first she was fine with the idea... she agreed with Mordin. Sometimes you heal people, sometimes you kill dangerous people... both help. She would have let Zaeed kill that merc if he hadn't been an idiot and set that whole place on fire. But as he was walking down the path to revenge, she saw Garrus manifest that darkness again, and she realized that he needed to be pulled back. Terrified of losing his loyalty, she did it... and he accepted it. He trusted her that much, trusted her to tell him when he was going too far. And well... that was pretty much it.

She found a robot who saved her life, and turned it on (because that's what you do if you're a fan of science fiction from a hopeful era and you find a robot who saves your life.) It turned out he was awesome. She learned more about the Geth, went on his mission, and was faced with the only other choice she found really difficult. Rewrite or destroy? As an organic, she would have chosen destroy, but Legion pointed out that for a synthetic it wasn't the same. In the end, she made the decision based solely on Legion's processes: he said 573 were for reprogramming and 571 were for destruction. While she knew Legion didn't consider this an actual decision, that's what she based her choice on... but she didn't feel great about it.

So then she went on to the relay. Suicide mission... and every single person came back. Kasumi went in the vents, Garrus lead the fire team, Mordin escorted the patients, Samara did the bubble. Everybody lived, and Garrus and Tali were with her to face that thing. Tim called in, told her to preserve base, and she thought that was hilarious. Somewhere deep inside, her heart was still flying toward Ilos, the spirit of rebellion singing in her veins. Every time anyone thought they could use Reaper tech, it backfired. And now this hubristic madman thought he was different? You'd have better luck sleeping with an Ardat Yakshi. The base blew, and she was on her way again.

What more is there to tell? She went into hibernation again, this time for political reasons. She fought a bit, tried to get people to change, but she was only ever really herself when she had her ship beneath her feet and her crew by her side. When the reapers came, it was once more into the breach. She picked up Kaidan and Liara, only to lose him again. Garrus came back because of course he did. Mordin wanted to save the Krogan, and she helped him. She helped everyone, except Udina, who she straight-up shot. She saw the history of the Morning war, realized it was a civil war where the wrong side won, and she ended that centuries-old conflict by yelling.

Then she fought... the rest of the way. She convinced Tim he was indoctrinated, and that thinking you could control the Reapers never worked.

Exhausted, she made it to the chamber. And then she ceased to be.

That isn't a joke. After that elevator lifted her up, I never saw her again. A thing that looked like her shambled around, but it did not sound like her, did not think like her, did not feel like her, it wasn't her. The decision that thing made is irrelevant, because I had no connection to it. It wasn't Jane Shepard.

The end.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 04 mai 2012 - 09:37 .

[Seijin8]

@uwyz

I fear I may have misrepresented my own stance. Clearly, you were unable to read my mind and perceive my intent. Shame on you! (Joking, of course!)

My post to CulturalGeekGirl was meant to be a hypothetical point of view, and is not at all representative of my own feelings toward the endings.

I largely agree with the thematic disconnects discussed in this thread, and am unashamedly an anti-ender. "Thematically revolting"? Hells, yes.

Legion is among my favorite characters, and as a Talimancer this created a great deal of narrative tension, which I savored every moment of. Legion's sacrifice and the uniting of Geth and Quarians to create the ultimate Rannoch All-Stars Fleet is the singular reason that I didn't push the big red button.

There are some ways the story could be manipulated to make the existing choices less atrocious, and I hope that is what the EC ends up being.

I disagree that the destruction of the relays automatically dooms galactic civilization to an enduring dark age, though the decade (or more) following their demolition will certainly be bleak, with many lives lost. Is this price worth the elimination of the cyclical genocide? I say yes, but many Shepards are not into the "calculus of survival", and that is okay too.

My belief is that the writers meant to show that the relays were chains and anchors as much as tools, and that their destruction ultimately frees galactic civilization from their bonds. But this is an assumption based on an entirely inadequate ending, and while I may "understand" the narrative intent, it doesn't mean that I agree with their vision of it.

tl;dr version: My post to CulturalGeekGirl was meant as a hypothetical/Devil's Advocate point of view, and you and I probably see the endings more similarly than not.

Thank you for your articulate post, and my apologies for not being clearer with my own.

[Seijin8]

@CulturalGeekGirl

... wow... just... wow. It was a perfect narrative of Jane Shepard's underlying thoughts and motivations.

Up until the end... which of course, is why we're all here.

Thank you SO MUCH for taking the time to write that. I am inspired and humbled.

[Sable Phoenix]

bc525 wrote...

Sable Phoenix, I really disagree with that sentiment. For me, replaying situations over and over strays far from my 'canon' character, and the "do-over" aspect only serves to trivialize my emotions. After all, if my character is in no danger of failing (meaning I know the ending), then where exactly is any tension? He becomes completely safe from any chance of failure, there are only varying degrees of success. Like I've stacked the deck.

To completely ignore my first playthrough just doesn't make sense to me. I think it's safe to say we're on opposite ends of the spectrum on this point.

It's difficult to explain, but as a creator of characters and the fictions that they inhabit, I've discovered that a character becomes its own person with its own actions, and despite you knowing them more and more intimately as you spend more time with them, it also becomes more likely that they will actually surprise you at times.

Jessica Shepard does not make it through each game perfectly.  For example, I was literally shocked when she shot Finch during the Old Friends quest.  My hand seemed to move of its own accord to select the shooting action as she pulled the trigger.  She failed to save Captain Kirrahe because she charged into Saren's base and missed the aircraft refueling depot.  She sacrificed the colonists to take down Balak, vindictively shot him multiple times and left him to bleed out, then when he miraculously survived and accosted her on the Citadel, she finished the job (the persuasion options were both available but they were not even considered).  There were other decisions that I was certain she would end up paying for in Mass Effect 3 but which ultimately were irrelevant, like saving Kasumi's graybox and destroying the Collector base, but that's a failing of the writing, not the choices themselves.  At the time I genuinely believed I'd see negative consequences (and as we all know in 20/20 hindsight, nothing you do in any of the games turns out to be relevant, anyway, but that's a different discussion).

So, metagaming is not for the purpose of creating a perfect playthrough.  It's for the purpose of staying true to the character.  This is one of the biggest reasons that I hate the abbreviated text on the conversation wheel and still believe I should see the full response written out ahead of time.  I also dislike the way interrupts are handled (although I'm at a loss how it could be different), since on my first playthrough I hit them every time they come up, and it's a gamble if they'll be in-character or not.  Pushing the merc out of the window on Illium was a totally out-of-character moment that I never took again after the first playthrough; the Renegade interrupt when bringing Legion onto the quarian ship was another.

The point is that Jessica still makes errors and mistakes, they just need to be the errors and mistakes she would actually make in-character.  I don't know how to explain it other than to say that I'm not Jessica Shepard, so she should not be forced to conform to the choices I made in the ignorance of a limited perspective.  In my head, the canon playthrough is defined by the decisions she made, not the ones I made.

Not sure if this makes sense to anyone who hasn't experienced a character taking on a life of its own.  At any rate it seems to be wending far afield of the topic.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Seijin8 wrote...

@CulturalGeekGirl

... wow... just... wow. It was a perfect narrative of Jane Shepard's underlying thoughts and motivations.

Up until the end... which of course, is why we're all here.

Thank you SO MUCH for taking the time to write that. I am inspired and humbled.

You're welcome. Thank you for reading it.

I honestly consider it a gift whenever anyone asks me to tell them about my character. I usually try to avoid going too deeply into a specific flight of her fancy, and I had to edit heavily for the things I thought were more relevant to the central narrative. She meant a lot to me, more than any game character in the decades I've been playing games.


(also, I was in the middle of replying to your earlier post when I saw his, and the moment took me. In short: you're right, There are plenty of "outlier" Shepards. I was using Renegade as a shorthand when I shouldn't have been... though I will point out that killing the Geth on Rannoch does occupy the "renegade" position on the wheel at that point. But yes, it's very possible to be a paragon in nearly every part of the game and never activate Legion, and then sacrifice the Geth.

I do feel the lack of challenging is against the fundamental nature of most shepards, however.)

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 04 mai 2012 - 10:05 .

[MaxRage]

Awesome topic, and extremely well written.

[Seijin8]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

I do feel the lack of challenging is against the fundamental nature of most shepards, however.)

Absolutely agreed.  Whatever your playstyle, Shepard is NOT a mindless follower.  At the moment "Investigate" was most needed, it wasn't there.

[bc525]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Exhausted, she made it to the chamber. And then she ceased to be.

That isn't a joke. After that elevator lifted her up, I never saw her again. A thing that looked like her shambled around, but it did not sound like her, did not think like her, did not feel like her, it wasn't her. The decision that thing made is irrelevant, because I had no connection to it. It wasn't Jane Shepard.

The end.

I cut the top portion of the post just to save some space, I'm not trying to take the highlighted paragraph out of context.  Trust me, I enjoyed reading your summary of Jane Shepard's experience, that was very cool.

So Jane did nothing when confronted by the Catalyst, or you the player just blacked it out?  Sitting on this end of the internet, I'm confused.  If Jane crumpled at the moment of truth and did nothing, then I'm disheartened.  I'm sorry, but to me that smacks of cowardice.  If Jane made no choice, then it resulted in a Critical Mission Failure.  Yes, failure is an option, and death threatens more than just the elderly and household pets.

Was Jane your first playthrough?  I'm still curious about this because I saw no clarification in your text.  Did the Jane you have described evolve over several playthroughs or were you describing her straight out of the box?

Look, if I didn't give a sh*t then I wouldn't respond.  But Jane was awesome.

[drayfish]

@ CulturalGeekGirl.

Again, as always, wow.

You make me want that beer even more, but to make a toast:

To Jane Shepard.  Lifted to the stars where she belongs.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

bc525 wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Exhausted, she made it to the chamber. And then she ceased to be.

That isn't a joke. After that elevator lifted her up, I never saw her again. A thing that looked like her shambled around, but it did not sound like her, did not think like her, did not feel like her, it wasn't her. The decision that thing made is irrelevant, because I had no connection to it. It wasn't Jane Shepard.

The end.

I cut the top portion of the post just to save some space, I'm not trying to take the highlighted paragraph out of context.  Trust me, I enjoyed reading your summary of Jane Shepard's experience, that was very cool.

So Jane did nothing when confronted by the Catalyst, or you the player just blacked it out?  Sitting on this end of the internet, I'm confused.  If Jane crumpled at the moment of truth and did nothing, then I'm disheartened.  I'm sorry, but to me that smacks of cowardice.  If Jane made no choice, then it resulted in a Critical Mission Failure.  Yes, failure is an option, and death threatens more than just the elderly and household pets.

Was Jane your first playthrough?  I'm still curious about this because I saw no clarification in your text.  Did the Jane you have described evolve over several playthroughs or were you describing her straight out of the box?

Look, if I didn't give a sh*t then I wouldn't respond.  But Jane was awesome.

No, Jane didn't collapse and I didn't black out. I literally do not know what happened to her.  My best guess is alternate universe, or something that was so awesome that it would have burned out my retinas if I wouda seen it, so she saved me from it.

Here, let me try to explain better.

Have you ever seen the movie face/off? It is not a very good movie, but it features Nicolas Cage and John Travolta, two actors with very specific personalities and mannerisms. At one point in the story they switch surgery and the rest of the movie is Nicolas Cage playing the John Travolta character (by doing a John Travolta impression), and vice versa. This is somewhere at the crux of awesome, hilarious, and entertaining. The final scene felt like that... the same actress playing a completely different character, one I didn't recognize.

Or have you ever really like a TV show, and then the writer or creator leaves, and now all the characters don't sound like themselves, and then you stop watching the show? My best example of this was the second Hellboy movie. Abe Sapien did not sound like himself, his lines did not have the same "feel" to them that they did in the comics or the first movie (regardless of the actor change involved). The last season of Gargoyles, the one that Greg Weisman did not write, has the same problem only much, much worse.

Picture this: your Shepard goes into a room, and the game auto-dialogues him to say "I will murder everyone on the normandy for no good raisin!" Then you get a play section where you decide which of your friends you will shoot first.  Would you feel like that was still your Shepard?

That's what I felt like with Jane. I literally could not process the things that the person on screen was saying to the Starkid as the same character. It felt like during that transition someone had pulled a face/off on her, and it was another person who behaved entirely different and had different mannerisms.

As for Jane's origin, she was all one playthrough, though there were occasional resets and rewinds. The first time I played the end mission of ME1, I hadn't slept in 48 hours (picking up on a theme here?) and I thought the Destiny Ascention was literally a lifepod with just the council and like two other people inside. I thought I was being asked to sacrifice the lives of thousands of soldiers to save like four people, which I wasn't willing to do.  Later I was like "wait, that didn't make sense," and found out what the Destiny Ascention actually was (a giant warship carrying tons of refugees). I feel like that is something Shepard would have known (in character), so I replayed that section.

There are a few times when the conversation option on the wheel has not corresponded with the actual line at all, and sometimes I reset in that case, but I consider that poor UI design rather than a real "replay". I've fallen asleep while playing once or twice, and then just replayed those sections the next day. Oh, and when I first played ME3, I didn't understand that "priority" meant "put this off as long as possible" so I finished Tuchanka before doing Grissom, and so I restarted. Those are the only changes from my very first instinctual decisions in the entire game, that I can remember anyway.

Anway, back to the elevator and the chamber and all that stuff.

I literally almost cannot describe this because it makes me feel hollow inside. Remembering it causes me to have a physical pain in my chest, which I am embarassed to describe. I heard the starchild's speech, and nothing. I mean... none of the options left showed anything of Jane. none of the words uttered were what she would say. It was just so obviously clearly not HER.  It had cut to another game, featuring another character, one I had never met before.

So this new protagonist I was trying to inhabit was thinking this: "This is so stupid. Why can't I say the words of how stupid this is? Loss of blood? Did I just say 'I don't know,' what is wrong with me? Oh well, I don't want to commit genocide, and I know that control is dumb. I've been up for 36 hours and I need to sleep soon. Wait, who had that thought? Anyway, I guess I'll try the green one because I just had a sequence explaining that blue is dumb and I don't want to commit genocide. Ok. Green. ugh. And now... don't care... don't care... don't care... It's over. What happened? Why does my heart hurt? I feel like something inside me has died."

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 04 mai 2012 - 11:01 .

[CulturalGeekGirl]

drayfish wrote...

@ CulturalGeekGirl.

Again, as always, wow.

You make me want that beer even more, but to make a toast:

To Jane Shepard.  Lifted to the stars where she belongs.

To Jane. I feel your loss again right now, but I will carry you with me 'til the end of my days.

Huh. I haven't cried since Rannoc. But here it comes again.

[Sable Phoenix]

bc525 wrote...

>snip<

So Jane did nothing when confronted by the Catalyst, or you the player just blacked it out?  Sitting on this end of the internet, I'm confused.  If Jane crumpled at the moment of truth and did nothing, then I'm disheartened.  I'm sorry, but to me that smacks of cowardice.  If Jane made no choice, then it resulted in a Critical Mission Failure.  Yes, failure is an option, and death threatens more than just the elderly and household pets.

Was Jane your first playthrough?  I'm still curious about this because I saw no clarification in your text.  Did the Jane you have described evolve over several playthroughs or were you describing her straight out of the box?

Look, if I didn't give a sh*t then I wouldn't respond.  But Jane was awesome.

Okay, now I'm starting to feel like I'm intruding, but to me this is too important to let past without commenting, since it is part and parcel of the gaming experience and how game narratives are designed and presented.

bc525, if I understand you correctly (and I readily admit I may not be), you feel that the initial playthrough contains more narrative "weight" because the choices were all made, essentially, while flying blind.  That somehow, this makes what occured more valid than anything that occurs on subsequent playthroughs.  Decisions made in the heat of the moment burn brighter, if you will, and later playthroughs, because of the inevitable metagaming perspective, are somehow inherently flawed in comparison.

Basically, you view the player and their choices as being impossible to separate from the character and their choices.

Okay, that's fine.  Let's then approach that viewpoint from a slightly different angle.  Did you die at any point during your playthrough?  I know I did.  I bet you did too.  I will wager that every single person who ever played the game died at least once.

Well, that's it.  Game over.  Turn off the console; you're done.

Wait, you didn't do that?  You hit "Load" and started up again from where you left off?  But... but Shepard died.  The initial playthrough is sacrosanct.  That's what happened and any change to it is metagaming.

Of course that's silly, but my point isn't.  Metagaming is inherent to the gaming experience.  We all know that Shepard didn't really get impaled on that Banshee claw.  That was just the author (player) screwing up the recounting of Shepard's story, so he has to go back and tell it correctly.  "No no, I'm kidding, that's not what really happened.  What really happened was this..."  And thus you, too, have metagamed your Shepard, even the one that went through your very first playthrough.

This one's a little more ambiguous, but have you ever chosen a dialogue option or an interrupt, watched it play out and thought, "Ugh, my Shepard wouldn't say/do that," and hit reload to go through again and pick a different option?  I certainly have.  You may not have, but whether you did or not, there is no inherent difference between doing that, and hitting "Load Save" after Banshee-impalement.  It's all metagaming.

Jane Shepard didn't crumple and do nothing when confronted by Ghostyboy.  Her player didn't black out.  What happened was that the narrative switched to a tale about a different character (I know, because it happened to me too, just as it happened to CulturalGeekGirl).  How do we know that?  Because the character we were shown exhibited none of the traits or personality that we have come to recognize as Shepard.  Somewhere, somehow, something like what we were shown happened.  It just didn't happen to our characters.

I finished ME3 and felt like Jessica Shepard had been kidnapped.  Like I needed to go file a missing persons report.  Like someone I loved, a family member, had vanished with no explanation.  It's a painful thing to go through.  You know how you always hear the families of kidnapping victims on the radio, tearful, pleading for the kidnapper to just let them know what has been done to their family member, even if they're dead?

It's that whole "closure" thing.  Yeah.  We didn't get that.

I just want Jessica back.


P.S.: I'll add my praise onto your retelling of Jane's story, CulturalGeekGirl.  Thanks for sharing that.

I know just how you feel.

Modifié par Sable Phoenix, 04 mai 2012 - 11:22 .

[Grotaiche]

Sable Phoenix wrote...

I know just how you feel.

(sorry for snipping most of the post ; just had nothing to add)
I think I can talk for many participants in this topic and say that we do. This is why this topic is so beautiful, because at some point we have to find words and express the void we just feel.
Thank you all for sharing.

[Seijin8]

Grotaiche wrote...

Sable Phoenix wrote...

I know just how you feel.

(sorry for snipping most of the post ; just had nothing to add)
I think I can talk for many participants in this topic and say that we do. This is why this topic is so beautiful, because at some point we have to find words and express the void we just feel.
Thank you all for sharing.

^ This.

[3DandBeyond]

Sable Phoenix wrote...

I'm in an extreme minority who believes that the first game was unequivocally better than either of its sequels.  Oh, I'll grant that as far as the mechanics go, there was a steady improvement from the first to the third.  But I don't play a game for its mechanics and I never have.  I play games for their stories.  I can play an old, clunky game (and yes, the first Mass Effect was pretty clunky) such as Planescape:Torment, as long as it has an engrossing narrative.  And after playing through Mass Effect 3, I would much rather play through the first Mass Effect again than subject myself to Mass Effect 3, despite the newest game's obviously superior combat.

The key game mechanic in Mass Effect has never been the combat.  As was mentioned earlier, that's basically a minigame that strings together actual important sequences.  The key game mechanic in Mass Effect is and always has been the dialogue wheel.  In this respect Mass Effect 3 is far inferior to either of its predecessors, since it only ever offers a maximum of four options (and usually only two).

... I'm not really sure what point I was starting to make with this.  Hooray for train derailments.  Suffice it to say that, in terms of narrative, game design, and world creation, Mass Effect stands head and shoulders over either of its successors.

I'm with you on this one and yet, I love a good shooter.  It's just all too often lately games are shooters first with a story sometimes woven into them.  Sometimes they do even leave off the story.  Games that flip flop this and make shooting a mere part of a good story tend to have more staying power.  I remember them long after I've played them. 

[RollaWarden]

This thread provides a good deal of insecurity for me, concurrent with reverence for the posters here.  If I was a graphic artist, or even knew how to operate such software machinery, I'd create my own Wall of Fame for this thread's posters.  All your names would be emblazoned as the fellow souls who kept mine going during this troubling period. 

Any of the following happened to anyone else on this thread?

1.  My BSN spirit's active in this thread, almost exclusively.  I might peek at other threads in the "Story and Campaign Discussion," but I don't post there.  This thread feeds my Mass Effect soul.  So here I read and post.

2. I find I post less often on this thread because after returning here, I MUST read every post since my last visit.  This thread's posts are all -Must Reads.  Every one of them.  Otherwise, I WILL miss brilliance!

3. Posting inertia.  Must. find. something. wittyurbanemetaphoricchiclucidlycontectual.  Or I cannot post.  Sigh.

4. Feeling very Cyd Sherman.  Cyd moment.  Pausing.  Face palm.

Recovering...

Regarding meta-gaming, "true" characters, and "canon runs":

These styles of gaming reinforce for me the achievement of ludonarrative--an achievement I found I'm beginning to champion in my professional literati circles.  I admit to being flummoxed at the thought of a "true" Shepard, viable and absolutist in it's meta-game-reality only extent in a first runthrough.  Like many of you, my Shep is a construct, an amalgam, a memorial reconstruction of several playthroughs, culminating in a three-game, consecutive "canon run."  A ludonarrative framework would insist that all playthroughs in this, our storytelling genre, are equally valid.  A Shepard story construction is valid from a ludonarrative perspective whether I'm flummoxed by it or not.  Your ludonarrative is correct.  My ludonarrative is correct.  So is hers.  And they're all the same chracter.  And not.  The same story, and not at all the same story.  The extraordinary dynamic, indeed the power, of this storytelling medium is its nearly infinite (or more difficult math than I can do, at least), ways to tell our Shepards' stories. 

Head canon, meta-gaming, true first-runthrough, canon playthrough, they're all equally valid ludonarratively.

Four playthroughs of ME1 and ME2  for me.  One of ME3.  Interesting that the playthroughs' differences were minor, distinguishable only by LI.  The trajectory, or arc, of myShep reflects the arc of my developing understanding/tolerance/acceptance/celebration of other species, through the choices of LI.  Began with Ashley in first ME1 run.  Growing repulsion, culminating in odd after-sex regret.  MyShep wanted to grab his clothes and get the hell out of the room.  But couldn't.  His place.  Ugh.  Coffee's going to be awkward.  Moved to Miranda in ME2.  Felt....inappropriate.  Doctor/patient relationship.  Ugh.

Returning to ME1.  Liara.  Good heavens, yes.  Of course!!!  Liara all along.  Subsequent playthroughs, all Liara, all the time.  Otherwise, myShep's paragon.  Okay, 80/20.  I'll occasionally interrupt.  Funny how myShep's smarter, more consistent, more decisive than I am, though, regarding these renegade interrupts.  He knows him better than I know him.  He knew better than to press RT interrupt during Khalisah interview, for example.  Shock.  Horror.  Re-load.  Different dialogue choice.  Ah yes--that's MyShep.  He knows better than I.

My point?  There hasn't been one in this post.  And there have been several.  I think.  Or not.  But here's a try:

The ludonarrative of Mass Effect through three games has been so extraordinary, the trilogy's ending comes as en even more catastrophic failure than simply a "bad story ending."  This isn't a novel, or a film.  This is a ludonarrative.  And as such, it has its own rules of engagement and interaction and diverse outcome (that's an important one here) that are directly violated in the shoehorn trilogy ending.  

There.  A point.  Uh, I think.  Cyd Sherman moment redux.... 

Modifié par RollaWarden, 04 mai 2012 - 01:10 .