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"All Were Thematically Revolting". My Lit Professor's take on the Endings. (UPDATED)


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#1401
3DandBeyond

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As to prior posts discussing the renegade Shepard choosing destroy and this making sense in terms of the renegade choosing to sacrifice Geth and save the Quarians. The main problem with this is, while it may work for a renegade that would care little for synthetic life, you can't view that in a vacuum. What happens upon choosing destroy beyond the destruction of reapers and synthetics is all up to your EMS. And it is almost if not completely identical to what a paragon could achieve. The matter of being an all out waste no time, get it done kind of ruthless character has no obvious benefit, nor does being thoughty, caring, wise, and considerate.

Beyond that, it can be assumed that a renegade might at least have some concerns as to what happens after-the death, doom, and destruction of dying races that were ill-prepared for long term life in space. The only concern might be all the space trash (derelict ships and such) left behind that could make flying hazardous. Or, the other consequences. The renegade had to have some reason for fighting so hard just as the paragon does. Renegade Shepard may care for some things more than others, maybe humans are supremely important. If so, there would have to be a concern over the consequences of destroying all that gets destroyed if choosing that option. A renegade might more appropriately choose to control, but that has its own issues and contradictions as well.

I do only partly agree that we may all gravitate toward some canon Shepard as we see it, but this is an after effect of the ending itself. Sure, I really like the first Shepard I created-I have a hard time seeing other faces of Shepard as Shepard, and the choices I initially made seem more reflective of gut level reactions that made sense. They seem more authentic. But, I would like to play a different Shepard differently and I've started 6 of them--male, female and even ascribed certain character traits to their appearances. But, I cannot get past a certain point with them. The ending renders their choices moot unless I just decide not to try and do anything just so I can see Earth vaporized. This is the big problem. If I play another type of character with a face I think matches, I want different in the ending as well.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 04 mai 2012 - 01:31 .


#1402
delta_vee

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Gah. You people won't even let me sleep without loading up my intended response queue.

Warning: multi-part multi-vector textwall incoming.

Opsrbest wrote...

You can do better then that. Really.

Yeah, that was a case of itchy-submit-finger. Thus the Stoppard quote that follows, which I think is more applicable.

Hawk227 wrote...

The mechanics were much better, I agree. The ledge grabbing and stealth kills, in particular, were fantastic additions. My favorite moment is at the top of the tower, as you try to infiltrate the CELL building across the street. The improved agility worked really well in that segment. However, I was a little put off by the transition from what felt like a sandbox (even if in practice it was more linear) environment in Crysis to the very linear but still open nature of Crysis 2. While this is a nitpick, I was also a little annoyed by how freaking hard it was to kill the Ceph without a Sniper Rifle. They're gelatinous invertebrates and I need to unload a clip a whole clip on them? Also, I found the game a little glitchy at times also, and the story... I don't know. Whenever I play Crysis 2 I found myself thinking about how utterly brilliant it could've been. With all three titles (DS, Crysis, and ME) I find that later incarnations have improved combat mechanics and visuals, but other aspects take a step backwards. That was what I meant by dumbing down.

While Crysis 1 feels like a sandbox in retrospect, there are really only two levels which embody the principle: the bay invasion, and the tank level that follows. The others are merely very wide corridors (which becomes much more apparent when you open them up in the SDK). I don't think the level construction in Crysis 2 was any less sophisticated, but the constriction in level size (and a dash of rose-tinted glasses) could easily give that impression.

As for taking down Ceph quickly: Grendel with scope. In the late game I only used a sniper rifle because I could silence it and shoot while cloaked.

bc525 wrote...

+ Again going back many pages, I was struck by the conviction of many folks that a fictional piece must adhere to a consistent framework for it to work. Must the ending be thematically consistent for all varieties of Shepard in order for it to work well? Or must it just work for a majority of them, not necessarily all? I'm curious to understand the equations of literary structure and what percentage of approval makes a piece 'right' and what makes it 'wrong'. Reading these forums, there are so many people that claim to "get it" and an equal amount of people that claim, no the first party most certainly did not "get it".

At the risk of tangentialism, I'd like to mention a collaborative fiction site I frequent, the SCP Foundation (http://www.scp-wiki.net). They have a saying: "there is no canon". This is done, of course, because pieces come and go, get downvoted into deletion, and everyone has a different view of exactly how the fictional universe works. No one can be expected to agree on consistent events, themes or characters across fifteen hundred articles.

There are, however, stringent guidlines in place for tone, terminology, and structure. These are enforced...ruthlessly. There are always some pieces which violate the thematic or stylistic sensibilities of some portion of the readership, but for the most part there's a broad consensus about what "fits".

The same process happens with every piece of every form of literature, if in a less formalized manner. Disagreement on the fitness of various components of a work is common, and there are no equations for it. When the component in question is the capstone, however, there's less room for selective acceptance on the part of various audiences, less ability to ignore or gloss over the portions which seem dissociated or merely lacking to any given reader/viewer/listener/player. Consider a music album: if one dislikes a song, one can skip it. Or a television series, where an episode (or even an entire season) can be ignored. But for the Infamous Ten Minutes, this approach is...insufficient.

Seijin8 wrote...

As an aside, I miss the Mako. I spent countless hours driving on every too-vertical surface I could find just for kicks, and the absence of that exploration element has been notable. The way the first game integrated the Mako as a crucial mission element much of the time has never been adequately replicated in ME2 or ME3.

Sable Phoenix wrote...

Eh, the Mako's problems weren't the Mako's problems, they were the level designers' problems. Specifically, they were the problems of the fractal landscapes that looked like they came straight out of Bryce. I doubt you'll find anyone complaining about how the Mako handled on Therum, or Feros, or Noveria, or Asteroid X57, or Virmire, or even Ilos. The setpiece planets were all designed to give the Mako a path to follow... the unexplored worlds, on the other hand, were just kind of lazy. Every complaint the Mako gets is actually a complaint about the landscaping.

To be fair, I seem to remember some post-mortem thing where someone at Bioware admitted that the suspension code on the Mako was too bouncy, which accounts for many of the problems people had on the fractal planets.

drayfish wrote...

Yay! Mako!

I'm sorry, but I have to say that Halo's Warthog is my gold standard for "space buggy". The Hammerhead I quite liked, but it wasn't used often enough.

Modifié par delta_vee, 04 mai 2012 - 04:24 .


#1403
delta_vee

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Seijin8 wrote...

[...] This is the chief reason I've abandoned ME1 as a starting point for replays. Its just too tedious to work through the battles.

Sable Phoenix wrote...

I'm in an extreme minority who believes that the first game was unequivocally better than either of its sequels. Oh, I'll grant that as far as the mechanics go, there was a steady improvement from the first to the third. But I don't play a game for its mechanics and I never have. I play games for their stories. [...] The key game mechanic in Mass Effect is and always has been the dialogue wheel. In this respect Mass Effect 3 is far inferior to either of its predecessors, since it only ever offers a maximum of four options (and usually only two).

... I'm not really sure what point I was starting to make with this. Hooray for train derailments. Suffice it to say that, in terms of narrative, game design, and world creation, Mass Effect stands head and shoulders over either of its successors.

Seijin8 wrote...

@Sable Phoenix

You are absolutely right, the combat has always been part of a segue between story elements. I recall when I played ME1, I was struck by how opposite this was to the usual, where you slog through story to get to the next fight.

In contrast, I was pleasantly surprised in ME2 where the battles were actually *fun*. Many times I would restart a mission simply to do it again, something inconceivable in ME1's combat gameplay. To me, Mass Effect 2 had the right balance and it was probably my favorite of the series (though ME1's story and pacing was usually superior).

To interject, what we have here is the counterpoint to the vitriolic nonsense about "appealing to the CoD market". Mass Effect players seem to span a fairly wide spectrum of gaming preferences.

That said, Sable, to use my previous Game A/B model, Game B is still a requirement of playing Game A. Not everyone is so...generous...towards poor mechanics. We are playing a game, after all. I think Bioware recognized this split with the "story mode" of ME3 (although why they didn't excise combat altogether instead of merely making it trivially easy is beyond me), and at least made an attempt to appeal to those amongst the fanbase which couldn't care less about Game B.

Heavy Rain has been mentioned before, and I'd like to submit it as purely Game A (whether it's any good is another matter). There wasn't much in there in design terms, though, which ME hasn't done as part of its Game A.

bc525 wrote...

Sable Phoenix, I really disagree with that sentiment. For me, replaying situations over and over strays far from my 'canon' character, and the "do-over" aspect only serves to trivialize my emotions. After all, if my character is in no danger of failing (meaning I know the ending), then where exactly is any tension? He becomes completely safe from any chance of failure, there are only varying degrees of success. Like I've stacked the deck.

To completely ignore my first playthrough just doesn't make sense to me. I think it's safe to say we're on opposite ends of the spectrum on this point.

Sable Phoenix wrote...

bc525, if I understand you correctly (and I readily admit I may not be), you feel that the initial playthrough contains more narrative "weight" because the choices were all made, essentially, while flying blind. That somehow, this makes what occured more valid than anything that occurs on subsequent playthroughs. Decisions made in the heat of the moment burn brighter, if you will, and later playthroughs, because of the inevitable metagaming perspective, are somehow inherently flawed in comparison. [...]

RollaWarden wrote...

[...]

Regarding meta-gaming, "true" characters, and "canon runs":

These styles of gaming reinforce for me the achievement of ludonarrative--an achievement I found I'm beginning to champion in my professional literati circles. I admit to being flummoxed at the thought of a "true" Shepard, viable and absolutist in it's meta-game-reality only extent in a first runthrough. Like many of you, my Shep is a construct, an amalgam, a memorial reconstruction of several playthroughs, culminating in a three-game, consecutive "canon run." A ludonarrative framework would insist that all playthroughs in this, our storytelling genre, are equally valid. A Shepard story construction is valid from a ludonarrative perspective whether I'm flummoxed by it or not. Your ludonarrative is correct. My ludonarrative is correct. So is hers. And they're all the same chracter. And not. The same story, and not at all the same story. The extraordinary dynamic, indeed the power, of this storytelling medium is its nearly infinite (or more difficult math than I can do, at least), ways to tell our Shepards' stories.

Head canon, meta-gaming, true first-runthrough, canon playthrough, they're all equally valid ludonarratively.

This is a ludonarrative question which applies to all branching stories, not just videogames. You can ask the same questions of a choose-your-own-adventure novel, or of Hopscotch, or of the multiple theatrical endings of 28 Days Later.

For analysis purposes, I think "canon" should apply to the entire possibility space - to the sum of all things which can happen. However, I think bc525 is getting at a serious consideration of the design of the subjective experience of the player. Experiencing every branch can (not necessarily will) subvert to some degree the choice-consequnce mechanical loop, devolving challenge (a fundamental aspect of most, but not all, game design) into mere preference between outcomes. I don't think it's useful to take a strictly reductionist approach in all cases, but I believe it's an important thing to evaluate.

Modifié par delta_vee, 04 mai 2012 - 04:57 .


#1404
RollaWarden

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delta_vee wrote...

For analysis purposes, I think "canon" should apply to the entire possibility space - to the sum of all things which can happen. However, I think bc525 is getting at a serious consideration of the design of the subjective experience of the player. Experiencing every branch can (not necessarily will) subvert to some degree the choice-consequnce mechanical loop, devolving challenge (a fundamental aspect of most, but not all, game design) into mere preference between outcomes. I don't think it's useful to take a strictly reductionist approach in all cases, but I believe it's an important thing to evaluate.


Ah, quite so.  I've been troubled, delta_vee, by the sweeping arc of ludonarrative criticism with regard to branching narratives.  My qualms have manifested in a dyspepsia when reading game studies theorists who use the term ludonarrative as a model for the storytelling gaming experience.  It's not quite accurate, is it?  Helps, but misses too much of the dynamic agency in game storytelling--narratopoeia, with gaming's sub-attendants (shooting, achievements, points, loot, etc), many/all of which are common (necessary?) in the genre.  The tension between choice-consequence and its uneasy cousin, preference, also continue to facsinate me with regard to this medium.

And yes--I think you're aiming and shooting more precisely here than I.  "Canon" as the et.al. of a game's experience for the "player"--quotations because the term seems so...incorrect...now.

Modifié par RollaWarden, 04 mai 2012 - 05:19 .


#1405
uwyz

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Seijin8 wrote...

@uwyz

I fear I may have misrepresented my own stance. Clearly, you were unable to read my mind and perceive my intent. Shame on you! (Joking, of course!)

My post to CulturalGeekGirl was meant to be a hypothetical point of view, and is not at all representative of my own feelings toward the endings.

I largely agree with the thematic disconnects discussed in this thread, and am unashamedly an anti-ender. "Thematically revolting"? Hells, yes.

Legion is among my favorite characters, and as a Talimancer this created a great deal of narrative tension, which I savored every moment of. Legion's sacrifice and the uniting of Geth and Quarians to create the ultimate Rannoch All-Stars Fleet is the singular reason that I didn't push the big red button.

There are some ways the story could be manipulated to make the existing choices less atrocious, and I hope that is what the EC ends up being.

I disagree that the destruction of the relays automatically dooms galactic civilization to an enduring dark age, though the decade (or more) following their demolition will certainly be bleak, with many lives lost. Is this price worth the elimination of the cyclical genocide? I say yes, but many Shepards are not into the "calculus of survival", and that is okay too.

My belief is that the writers meant to show that the relays were chains and anchors as much as tools, and that their destruction ultimately frees galactic civilization from their bonds. But this is an assumption based on an entirely inadequate ending, and while I may "understand" the narrative intent, it doesn't mean that I agree with their vision of it.

tl;dr version: My post to CulturalGeekGirl was meant as a hypothetical/Devil's Advocate point of view, and you and I probably see the endings more similarly than not.

Thank you for your articulate post, and my apologies for not being clearer with my own.


@Seijin8

My sincerest apologies for coming off so strong in expressing my opinions. I fear that I led my emotions bleed too much into my words. My reply was not meant as an attack against you, or the pro-enders. I respect their contribution to this discussion enormously.

My goal is refute some common points that people who accepted the ending like to raise.

1. If Shepard is renegade, then the ending make sense and is 'thematically" consistent. The implication here is that it is the player who decides what the theme is, not the story teller. I disagree. I believe that the narrative of the story defines the themes of the story, and they we, as audience, can either accept or reject these themes, but we do not decide them.

2. Synthetics are not life forms - this is a valid point of view that can be argued logically. My sci-fi savvy friends always like to equate killing synthetics with turning off lights. I think that while this pov is valid for the world at large, it does not apply within the frame of this story. ME2 and ME3 went to great length to show us the human and civilized charactersitics of Legion and EDI - while presenting no counter-argument (aside from Ashley and the quarian admiral's prejudice) to argue otherwise. This makes it very difficult to accept the dehumanization of synthetic life-forms in the destroy ending (in fact, all 3 endings). Again, if you believe it is the story that decide the themes, then the ending seriously contradicted the story.

3. If Shepard didn't activate Legion, and if he sided with the Quarians, then the "organcis vs synthetics" theme works and destory is morally correct. My reply here is that even if Shepard does not have knowledge of it, the fact remains that the Geth rose in defence of themselves, that many Quarians sympathized with their plight in the morning war, that one geth, Legion, came in good faith to help Shepard defeat the reapers, and that EDI was instrumental in the events of ME2. While the player may choose what Shepard does or does not do, the historical facts in the lore remains the same, and while Shepard may choose not to be exposed to all this new information, the fact the possibility of a alternative where synthetics coexist with organics renders the 'organics vs. synthetics' argument moot.

With all those 3 points in mind, I think the way the writers forces the ending into this narrative corner is like engaging in an exercise of "kicking the puppy". If I believe that the writer decides the moral message of a fiction, then the message they tried to pass us in the ending is repugnant, and it demolish much that was good in the story that came before it - hence my anger and disgust. Did the writers expect us to accept intolerance, betrayal and dehumanization? If they did, is that not an insult to the audience's intelligence, taste and moral values? If they did not, why have they not addressed these very serous concerns but hide behind the 'artistic integrity' argument? Art does not offer license to propogate morally degraded principles, especially when art's message reflect on the creater's intent and beliefs.

I wish these points can be expanded (or refuted) by the more articulate contributors to this thread (I envy their way with words). In thinking over the implications of the ending, I can not help but felt being played in a cruel trick.

Modifié par uwyz, 04 mai 2012 - 06:45 .


#1406
KitaSaturnyne

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delta_vee wrote...

I'm sorry, but I have to say that Halo's Warthog is my gold standard for "space buggy". The Hammerhead I quite liked, but it wasn't used often enough.


Yay Hammerhead! Sure, it was made of tissue paper, but the Super Mario-style platforming was a lot of fun!

#1407
delta_vee

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RollaWarden wrote...

Ah, quite so.  I've been troubled, delta_vee, by the sweeping arc of ludonarrative criticism with regard to branching narratives.  My qualms have manifested in a dyspepsia when reading game studies theorists who use the term ludonarrative as a model for the storytelling gaming experience.  It's not quite accurate, is it?  Helps, but misses too much of the dynamic agency in game storytelling--narratopoeia, with gaming's sub-attendants (shooting, achievements, points, loot, etc), many/all of which are common (necessary?) in the genre.  The tension between choice-consequence and its uneasy cousin, preference, also continue to facsinate me with regard to this medium.

And yes--I think you're aiming and shooting more precisely here than I.  "Canon" as the et.al. of a game's experience for the "player"--quotations because the term seems so...incorrect...now.

I share many of your qualms, RollaWarden. The term "ludonarrative" is everyone's favorte shiny new toy, without sufficient rigor in its definition (or applicability, or precedents, or...). Even terms like "play" and "fun" or even "game" have a number of little-remarked assumptions in their use, subtly demanding an ultimately restrictive purpose to this particular type of interactive media. (As an aside, I like the term "throughline" used upthread to refer to a particular variation within the "canon" set. I'm going to steal it. Forgotten poster, come claim your credit.)

Mass Effect is a fascinating critical microcosm in this respect, due to the way in which choice and consequence (hereafter CNC) is overlaid upon expression of preference (hereafter EOP). The majority of ME's important choices, after all, are primarily EOP, due to the various plot constrictions employed to keep the possibility space within manageable limits. Saving the council, for example, leads to a redistribution of EMS values, with a very slight advantage for the "save" decision, and a few lines of dialogue made more antagonistic. The mechanism seems to work best on Tuchanka, because the implications and connotations of character replacements (Wrex vs Wreav, Mordin vs Not-Mordin) interfere interestingly with the decision-making process without requiring large amounts of branching.

This is not to trivialize EOP - preferences are important to player-avatar connection, especially in a character-focused work like ME. CulturalGeekGirl's loquacious retelling of Jane Shepard is a useful demonstration of how EOP can impart meaning where the system itself does not (also an excellent read on its own merits). But the system has its own biases; a portion of the justification of removing most neutral options in ME3 is how few players used them, due to EOP conversation choices carrying cumulative CNC weight by unlocking the red/blue win-conversation buttons.

Where this ties into the end, of course, is that for many of us the Infamous Ten Minutes appear to be merely EOP ("pick your favorite color to destroy the galaxy with") while simultaneously discarding most, if not all, of the player's previously-decided preferences. This is why I believe not only that the end choices were poor, but the insistence on a final choice at all was obtuse from a design perspective. We'd spent three games expecting our preferences to cumulatively determine a consequence (or series thereof), and a single choice, largely disconnected from previous ones, violates the context in which both CNC and EOP decisions were made. 

Modifié par delta_vee, 04 mai 2012 - 07:37 .


#1408
delta_vee

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@uwyz:

 1. If Shepard is renegade, then the ending make sense and is 'thematically" consistent. The implication here is that it is the player who decides what the theme is, not the story teller. I disagree. I believe that the narrative of the story defines the themes of the story, and they we, as audience, can either accept or reject these themes, but we do not decide them.

The difference being that we, as players, have the opportunity to accept or reject presented themes within the system of the game. This doesn't entirely refute your point, but it does complicate it. The player is complicit to some extent with every decision, but the interpretation of that intent is still rather opaque. As we've seen, there's quite a spectrum of reasoning behind the same decisions, large and small in equal measure.

 2. Synthetics are not life forms - this is a valid point of view that can be argued logically. My sci-fi savvy friends always like to equate killing synthetics with turning off lights. I think that while this pov is valid for the world at large, it does not apply within the frame of this story. ME2 and ME3 went to great length to show us the human and civilized charactersitics of Legion and EDI - while presenting no counter-argument (aside from Ashley and the quarian admiral's prejudice) to argue otherwise. This makes it very difficult to accept the dehumanization of synthetic life-forms in the destroy ending (in fact, all 3 endings). Again, if you believe it is the story that decide the themes, then the ending seriously contradicted the story.

In the case of Legion, it's possible to entirely close off that line of enquiry. In the context of the canon vs throughline discussion above, does this constitue a change of theme? Does the voluntary excision of game content in a given subjective experience modify the intended meaning? If a branching narrative presented two contradictory thematic statements, which would be considered a violation of the other? (And no, I don't have an answer to those questions.)

EDI is a bit less complicated, since her transformation is required for plot advancement in both ME2 and ME3. Then again, who can be a dick to EDI?

 3. If Shepard didn't activate Legion, and if he sided with the Quarians, then the "organcis vs synthetics" theme works and destory is morally correct. My reply here is that even if Shepard does not have knowledge of it, the fact remains that the Geth rose in defence of themselves, that many Quarians sympathized with their plight in the morning war, that one geth, Legion, came in good faith to help Shepard defeat the reapers, and that EDI was instrumental in the events of ME2. While the player may choose what Shepard does or does not do, the historical facts in the lore remains the same, and while Shepard may choose not to be exposed to all this new information, the fact the possibility of a alternative where synthetics coexist with organics renders the 'organics vs. synthetics' argument moot.

If Legion's storyline is rejected at its beginning, then does that history actually exist, given that we only learn of it through Legion?

#1409
uwyz

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bc525 wrote...

drayfish wrote...

To me it is just that while that remains consistent for the individual Shepard, outside of that personal trajectory I get the sense that the larger thematic world is insisting that there is a legitimacy to synthetic life, an evolutionary prerogative that can be personally denied, but universally constant nonetheless.  EDI always wants that body; the Geth are always simply seeking freedom and the right to exist. Perhaps this would have been more consistent if the game was designed so that once you chose to disregard Legion's autonomy in ME2 you were no longer given access to the missions in ME3 where the revelations of the Geth Morning War are made; but for me, forcing you to play through a recollection of their dawning consciousness seems to predispose the player to read them as burgeoning life forms, even if Shepard's personal perspective disagrees. But again, perhaps that is just me. In this instance 'genocide' is a term that I as reader (rather than Shepard as participant), bring to the text with the wider perspective on the world.


Oh man, great point about the game forcing the player to experience the Geth vs Quarian history.  I genuinely didn't think of the Geth as a sentient race until Legion downloaded into the Collective on Rannoch in ME3, but to continue with your thought, we're going back to those very first days, long before ME1 - and the Geth became sentient the exact moment they chose to defend themselves against the Quarians.  I would dismiss this, but as you point out the game forces me (the player) to experience this history.  It's unavoidbable.  Ugh.

fish, you're alright.  If I could I'd buy you a beer.


Here is a thought I just had on the "Geth and EDI being alive" question:

On one hand Shepard has the choice to decide for himself whether EDI and the Geth are 'alive', on the other hand EDI and the Geth firmly believes themselves to be alive. In a way, the Geth stood in relation with Shepard as Shepard once stood in relation to Sovereign. Legion makes an argument to Shepard for the Geth's continued existence and future, as Shepard once argued against Sovereign. Sovereign's reply is well known - "You (organics) represent Chaos, we (reapers) represent order ... You flourish because we allow it, and you will end because we demand" - the implication being that organic lives have no value and no saving grace, and that their future and survival is not theirs to decide - it is the reapers' right to decide. If Shepard ended the Geth (and all synthetic life forms in the destory option) based on the premise "geth aren't alive" - then he has done to the Geth what the reapers have done to the world. This robs Shepard's fight of moral appeal - he is simply fighting for his own survival and future (and that of all organics), but he is no longer really fighting for a moral principle.

Seen in that light, EDI and Legion's roles are not unlike that of Saren - they ingratiated themselves with the "Enemy", in the vain hope that by demonstrating their value they could persuade the "Great Destoryer" to spare their kin of destruction. My, EDI and legion really should have knock Shepard out while they had the chance and handed him to the collectors.

If a renegade sacrificed EDI and the Geth for a different reason (like for "the greater good"), then the equation becomes a bit different. But the moral implications remain.

Modifié par uwyz, 04 mai 2012 - 08:37 .


#1410
uwyz

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@delta_vee

I would argue that just because Shepard didn't see something, it doesn't mean it didn't happen. And for the simple reason that things could have turned out for the better, it means that the player should not be forced accept things for the worse.

To elaborate - just because Shepard didn't meet Legion, and that he didn't learn the story of the morning war from him (it/them), does not mean Legion has no personality, or that the morning war didn't happen the way it did. Shepard simply made a choice that restricted his access to new data, new data that provided a more nuanced understanding of the mass effect world. The fact that this data exist speaks of the author's intent.

If Legion and the geth's action were based on Shepard's intent - say if they became model citizens on Shepard's encourage, or became unredeemable destroyers in response to Shepard's aggressions, then I can see a point in arguing that the "player" chooses the predominate 'theme/pov' of the narrative. But it seems to me that the Geth's defining humane traits were developed before Shepard's intervention, and that continued to act in good faith after meeting Shepard. Even if Legion is dead in ME2, he is replaced by a unit sharing his philosophy in ME3.

So we know that it is possible for the Geth to coexist with organics, and that it is even possible for them to reach peace and symbosis with the Quarians - their enemy in the past 300 years. That by itself negates the notion that "synthetics and organics must necessary eliminate each other". (Of course, you can argue that the Geth can still turn on everyone in the future - but then we wander outside the context of this story here). Just because Shepard screwed up in failing to broker peace through the player's own missteps does not mean peace is never, and can never be possible. it is not that the 'synthetic vs. organics' theme doesn't work for some people - it doesn't work for the story at all.

#1411
edisnooM

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First let me say that I loved EDI and the Geth (not in weird way, get your mind out of the gutter), and that EDI and Legion were two of my favourite characters.

But another point about the Destroy ending is that the sacrifice of EDI and the Geth may not be quite as bad as it seems.

EDI had earlier had a discussion with my Shepard on the topic of self-preservation, the end result being that she was changing her code to lessen the emphasis on it as she wished to be nothing like the Reapers. Further she declared that her new found humanity was worth defending to the death.

Personally I feel as though Legion would have felt the same way (maybe not Humanity, perhaps Gethity?), and that the Geth having achieved individuality would agree. This is further elaborated on by cut dialogue with a Geth Prime (Seriously Bioware why would you cut this?), where he (she?, it?) declares that there will be no more compromise with the Old Machines, and that the Geth will build their own future. Here's the dialogue if you want to listen: www.youtube.com/watch.

Honestly though I hated all the choices and I wish I could have told the Catalyst to take his solutions and shove them up his jumper.


Also I linked this video earlier but it dissects the endings using dialogue quotes from throughout the trilogy as arguments that I found fairly interesting: www.youtube.com/watch

Modifié par edisnooM, 04 mai 2012 - 09:06 .


#1412
3DandBeyond

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@uwyz,
This is at the core of many discussions. It doesn't seem like the person or persons writing the ending paid attention to the Geth/Quarian nor the Krogan/Turian/Salarian plot lines. It would at least make sense if the Shepard that chose to cure the genophage and nurture a Geth/Quarian symbiosis would at least reject all options, since none take into account these major things.

I include the Krogans because the fact they were advanced beyond their readiness makes them a created. They did rebel, but can learn a new way. None of this is taken into account and it's like a slap in the face.

When I was young my mom always told us kids to get along when we were fighting-no matter what, this is an option, except in the ME3 ending. And if the created will always rebel against (destroy) the creator, uh, sorry for this, but why don't we all kill our parents?

#1413
JadedLibertine

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3DandBeyond brought up the Krogan. Grunt was an artificially created being, programmed by Okeer. He chose to reject Okeer's programming, forge his own path and build his own future.

#1414
edisnooM

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JadedLibertine wrote...

3DandBeyond brought up the Krogan. Grunt was an artificially created being, programmed by Okeer. He chose to reject Okeer's programming, forge his own path and build his own future.


The same could also sort of be said for Miranda.

#1415
3DandBeyond

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edisnooM wrote...

JadedLibertine wrote...

3DandBeyond brought up the Krogan. Grunt was an artificially created being, programmed by Okeer. He chose to reject Okeer's programming, forge his own path and build his own future.


The same could also sort of be said for Miranda.


That's true but in a very real way Oriana was also a creation of Miranda's.  It all becomes like a circle in a circle.  And the questions raised often have varied answers.  Must the created rebel against the creator?  Maybe, but not always and it depends.  Must they always then destroy them?  No, they must not and they will not always do so.

#1416
RollaWarden

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I've been wanting to fold GodChildinTheMachine's extraordinary thread into ours, but have been waiting for the right time in our discussion.  I hope I have chosen well.

Are you familiar with the Frankenstein Complex?  The BSN user GodChildinTheMachine created this now-(by BSN standards) ancient thread that never got much attention.  My wish is for the great minds of this thread I so greatly admire to share his thoughts.  The post is long, long, long, but necessarily so, and worth a coffee, a brew, a glass, or a cup o' tea, and a careful read. GC's essay is magnificent.

This September, I'll be delivering a lecture and leading a discussion that I often do, on Shelley's Frankenstein.  I think Shelley's questions resonate today, and echo throughout the Mass Effect trilogy.  When I first read GC's post, I immediately emailed him and asked if he would allow me to quote him.  I have also PM'ed him, inviting him to join our conversation in this thread.  I hope he does; I think you'd welcome him.

Without further ado, AWTR posters, GodChildinTheMachine, and the Frankenstein Complex:

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/10550373

Modifié par RollaWarden, 04 mai 2012 - 09:57 .


#1417
edisnooM

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3DandBeyond wrote...

edisnooM wrote...

JadedLibertine wrote...

3DandBeyond brought up the Krogan. Grunt was an artificially created being, programmed by Okeer. He chose to reject Okeer's programming, forge his own path and build his own future.


The same could also sort of be said for Miranda.


That's true but in a very real way Oriana was also a creation of Miranda's.  It all becomes like a circle in a circle.  And the questions raised often have varied answers.  Must the created rebel against the creator?  Maybe, but not always and it depends.  Must they always then destroy them?  No, they must not and they will not always do so.


That's actually one of my problems with the endings, that we are essentially talked at by the Catalyst without being able to counter his claims.

One thing that I thought might have been interesting is if we had a fourth choice to argue with the Catalyst and that as we went on all our past choices from the series provided more fuel to our argumentative fire.

All we had sacrificed, all we had won, those we saved and those we lost, our victories, our defeats, each one shaping our Shepard into what they had become, and now fueling their Renegade Rage, or Paragon Fury, as they face down this "thing" that dares dictate terms to us.

Whether this changed anything or not, it sure would have made me feel better at the end.

#1418
uwyz

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3DandBeyond wrote...

@uwyz,
This is at the core of many discussions. It doesn't seem like the person or persons writing the ending paid attention to the Geth/Quarian nor the Krogan/Turian/Salarian plot lines. It would at least make sense if the Shepard that chose to cure the genophage and nurture a Geth/Quarian symbiosis would at least reject all options, since none take into account these major things.

 


Thank you. I have faithfully followed through with the discussions on this forum, and I applaud the eloquence of the many contributors (on both sides) who shared their view on the matter. My thanks to you all.

I am however a bit disheartened to see that many people seem to think that "the ending is thematically revolting only for a certain kind of Shepard" - you know, the kind of that agreed with Legion and brokered peace between the Quarians and the Geth. I wish to argue that the ending is thematically revolting for the entire story, for all Shepards, and for the Mass Effect universe. ME is a piece of fiction where the audience is given the option to choose the fate of its characters - but like all fiction it has a purpose (and I don't mean purpose as in getting that $60 out of you) and a message (not the 'buy more dlc' message) - and it is the writers who decide that message. We as the audienc can choose to agree or disagree with the message, to accept it or reject it - but we cannot deny that the message is there.

So I believe that some of the most message of until the ending rolled out are celebration of diversity, a plead for people to 'connect', an affirmation of the right of different groups to self-determine. These are the theme of the story, they are not themes specific to certain type of players. Then the ending came along and negated these themes - all the while slapping a dish of rather objectionable moral values and force you to eat it. Like I said, a 'kicking the puppy' exercise.

So I will reiterate, the ending is thematically broken for the entire ME story.

And to the pro-enders on this thread - my post is not meant as challenge to your tastes. You have your beliefs because of your own unique take/perspective on the story - and your persepctive is valid. I am genuinely glad that you enjoyed ME and is at peace with how it ended. I just happen to think that the ending doesn't fit story in the worst possible way, and I take issue with that. I am also offended by the moral message implicit in the ending (probably by reading too much into the writer's intentions).

Modifié par uwyz, 04 mai 2012 - 10:08 .


#1419
uwyz

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uwyz wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

@uwyz,
This is at the core of many discussions. It doesn't seem like the person or persons writing the ending paid attention to the Geth/Quarian nor the Krogan/Turian/Salarian plot lines. It would at least make sense if the Shepard that chose to cure the genophage and nurture a Geth/Quarian symbiosis would at least reject all options, since none take into account these major things.

 


Thank you. I have faithfully followed through with the discussions on this forum, and I applaud the eloquence of the many contributors (on both sides) who shared their view on the matter. My thanks to you all.

I am however a bit disheartened to see that many people seem to think that "the ending is thematically revolting only for a certain kind of Shepard" - you know, the kind of that agreed with Legion and brokered peace between the Quarians and the Geth. I wish to argue that the ending is thematically revolting for the entire story, for all Shepards, and for the Mass Effect universe. ME is a piece of fiction where the audience is given the option to choose the fate of its characters - but like all fiction it has a purpose (and I don't mean purpose as in getting that $60 out of you) and a message (not the 'buy more dlc' message) - and it is the writers who decide that message. We as the audienc can choose to agree or disagree with the message, to accept it or reject it - but we cannot deny that the message is there.

So I believe that some of the most important messages of the story until the ending rolled out are celebration of diversity, a plead for people to 'connect', an affirmation of the right of different groups to self-determine. These are the theme of the story, they are not themes specific to certain type of players. Then the ending came along and negated these themes - all the while slapping a dish of rather objectionable moral values and force you to eat it. Like I said, a 'kicking the puppy' exercise.

So I will reiterate, the ending is thematically broken for the entire ME story.

And to the pro-enders on this thread - my post is not meant as challenge to your tastes. You have your beliefs because of your own unique take/perspective on the story - and your persepctive is valid. I am genuinely glad that you enjoyed ME and is at peace with how it ended. I just happen to think that the ending doesn't fit story in the worst possible way, and I take issue with that. I am also offended by the moral message implicit in the ending (probably by reading too much into the writer's intentions).



#1420
uwyz

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Apologies for double post - I was trying to fix some typos.

#1421
Hawk227

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delta_vee wrote...

[....]This is why I believe not only that the end choices were poor, but the insistence on a final choice at all was obtuse from a design perspective. We'd spent three games expecting our preferences to cumulatively determine a consequence (or series thereof), and a single choice, largely disconnected from previous ones, violates the context in which both CNC and EOP decisions were made. 


I agree completely. For 5 years, the series had fundamentally been about realizing the consequences of your choices. Every choice had the implicit promise of paying off or backfiring in the end. To end on a choice (between the lesser of 3 evils, no less) and one whose ramifications we'll never see was a violation of the fundamental premise of the game.

If Legion's storyline is rejected at its beginning, then does that history actually exist, given that we only learn of it through Legion?


This got me wondering about how the Rannoch arc plays out without Legion. After a little research, it appears (note: I've note played through it) it plays out very similarly to Tuchanka without Wrex. If Legion is sold to Cerberus or dies in the suicide mission, he is replaced by a Geth VI. This replacement does not have the same experiences as Legion, and thus has a more pessimistic and distrustful outlook towards organics, but the history is still presented to the player. What is missing is the mutual empathy and trust shared between Legion and Shepard. This trust obviously colors the decision a great deal, but it does not change the history of the Geth/Quarian conflict.

Modifié par Hawk227, 04 mai 2012 - 10:34 .


#1422
marstinson

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@ OP: Everyone deserves a professor like this at some point in their academic life. Few will encounter more than one or two and fewer still will recognize or appreciate the wondrous opportunities they provide. I had mine, but there wasn't much to be said about "Pong".

#1423
KitaSaturnyne

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bc525 wrote...

drayfish wrote...

To me it is just that while that remains consistent for the individual Shepard, outside of that personal trajectory I get the sense that the larger thematic world is insisting that there is a legitimacy to synthetic life, an evolutionary prerogative that can be personally denied, but universally constant nonetheless.  EDI always wants that body; the Geth are always simply seeking freedom and the right to exist. Perhaps this would have been more consistent if the game was designed so that once you chose to disregard Legion's autonomy in ME2 you were no longer given access to the missions in ME3 where the revelations of the Geth Morning War are made; but for me, forcing you to play through a recollection of their dawning consciousness seems to predispose the player to read them as burgeoning life forms, even if Shepard's personal perspective disagrees. But again, perhaps that is just me. In this instance 'genocide' is a term that I as reader (rather than Shepard as participant), bring to the text with the wider perspective on the world.


Oh man, great point about the game forcing the player to experience the Geth vs Quarian history.  I genuinely didn't think of the Geth as a sentient race until Legion downloaded into the Collective on Rannoch in ME3, but to continue with your thought, we're going back to those very first days, long before ME1 - and the Geth became sentient the exact moment they chose to defend themselves against the Quarians.  I would dismiss this, but as you point out the game forces me (the player) to experience this history.  It's unavoidbable.  Ugh.

fish, you're alright.  If I could I'd buy you a beer.


I'd just like to point out that the trip into the Geth Consensus, and therefore the revelations regarding the Morning War, is NOT a required mission. You can go straight to the Reaper base without playing it, the only prerequisite being that you rescue Admiral Koris.

EDIT: Koris, not Korlis.

Modifié par KitaSaturnyne, 04 mai 2012 - 11:06 .


#1424
delta_vee

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Hawk227 wrote...

This got me wondering about how the Rannoch arc plays out without Legion. After a little research, it appears (note: I've note played through it) it plays out very similarly to Tuchanka without Wrex. If Legion is sold to Cerberus or dies in the suicide mission, he is replaced by a Geth VI. This replacement does not have the same experiences as Legion, and thus has a more pessimistic and distrustful outlook towards organics, but the history is still presented to the player. What is missing is the mutual empathy and trust shared between Legion and Shepard. This trust obviously colors the decision a great deal, but it does not change the history of the Geth/Quarian conflict.

This is useful. Legion was alive in my playthrough, so I didn't know what the Legion-less throughline was like.

Which, of course, brings up the difficulty of criticism when the critic doesn't necessarily have access to the full text. It's a problem even greater than the usual question of understanding the context of a work (its history, conventions, idioms, precedents, antecedents, et cetera). We're used to being able to evaluate the text as a whole, which is not necessarily true in the general case of ergodic texts, but videogames especially, with their dynamic systems and often-large possibility spaces.

KitaSaturnyne wrote...

I'd just like to point out that the trip into the Geth Consensus, and therefore the revelations regarding the Morning War, is NOT a required mission. You can go straight to the Reaper base without playing it, the only prerequisite being that you rescue Admiral Koris.

This is an important point, and the fact that the Consensus mission is optional as opposed to required is relevant to any discussion of authorial intent. More on this below.

uwyz wrote...
[...]The fact that this data exist speaks of the author's intent.

If Legion and the geth's action were based on Shepard's intent - say if they became model citizens on Shepard's encourage, or became unredeemable destroyers in response to Shepard's aggressions, then I can see a point in arguing that the "player" chooses the predominate 'theme/pov' of the narrative.

[...]

Just because Shepard screwed up in failing to broker peace through the player's own missteps does not mean peace is never, and can never be possible. it is not that the 'synthetic vs. organics' theme doesn't work for some people - it doesn't work for the story at all.

I should be clear that I'm playing Devil's Advocate here, and working through larger, thornier questions of videogame criticism. I don't necessarily disagree with you in this case. My reasoning, however, may be somewhat...different. Bear with me.

I don't think we can say unequivocally that simply because the data exists within the possibility space of the game at large that we are bound to consider it. Videogames are not only ergodic texts, requiring nontrivial effort in their traversal, but systems, wherein portions of the text may be rendered inaccessible or even invalid. My throughline is not yours, my subjective experience can differ wildly, and while both are valid they may conflict on multiple levels.

I liken this critical tension to wave-particle duality. The game exists as a set of potential states (like a wavefunction). A given playthrough represents the actualization of a single state (like a particle). We cannot ignore any given single playthrough, since we cannot assume a player will ever complete more than one, and thus when discussing the player's experience whatever subset of the whole is exposed has to be treated as if it were all that existed. That said, the rest of the game does exist, if only as potential, so any judgements of what the game itself intends must compare how it responds to varying input. Both perspectives are required for a full understanding of the system, but the type of answer depends on the question asked.

In the case of the Geth, the fact that so much of the humanizing interaction is optional suggests that the game allows for the legitimacy of an anti-synthetic perspective. They begin the series as "unredeemable destroyers", after all, and (as far as I can tell) all the redeeming information can be bypassed by the player. Compare this to EDI's treatment: she must be unshackled to progress in ME2, and she must be given control of Eva's body to progress in ME3. The player is given the option to express mistrust, even revulsion, but we as players are forced to confront the issue.

Where I end up agreeing with your view, uwyz, is one step past that. Mass Effect, you see rewards completion above all else. The game never punishes the player for the decision to unlock more content. Accepting new squadmates never places Shepard in true danger. Pursuing sidequests never places others out of reach (except for the timing issues in ME2 surrounding the Collector abduction, but that was a failure of communication with the player on some level, and was rectified in ME3). And completionism is rewarded with more experience, more levels, more weapons, more options, higher reputation, better upgrades, and often more insight into the world and its characters. Sometimes, in fact, completionism is rewarded to the detriment of narrative urgency - a fact most evident in ME1. For all the (occasionally forced) pleas to continue the main plotline right away, further exploration was (excepting the abduction bit) never punished.

In that light, a player which never engaged with Legion's story was playing the game wrong to a degree, and studied consideration of the issue in full is rewarded directly by the mechanics. And in this light, the genocide of the Geth does indeed appear to violate the thematic intent of the game as a whole.

[Edited for clarity.]

Modifié par delta_vee, 05 mai 2012 - 12:17 .


#1425
Seijin8

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@uwyz

Never apologize for passionately stating your point of view. I did not see your reply as an attack, and appreciate your perspective.

Regarding narrative intent in their message of the endings, we unfortunately have to peer outside the fiction to see that the narrative has always been collaborative with each gestalt revealing/emphasizing different perspectives. It would seem that Hudson/Walters either *did* want to push "intolerance, betrayal and dehumanization", or were unaware that their narrative was doing so. (Probably the latter.)

On one hand Shepard has the choice to decide for himself whether EDI and the Geth are 'alive', on the other hand EDI and the Geth firmly believes themselves to be alive. In a way, the Geth stood in relation with Shepard as Shepard once stood in relation to Sovereign. Legion makes an argument to Shepard for the Geth's continued existence and future, as Shepard once argued against Sovereign. Sovereign's reply is well known - "You (organics) represent Chaos, we (reapers) represent order ... You flourish because we allow it, and you will end because we demand" - the implication being that organic lives have no value and no saving grace, and that their future and survival is not theirs to decide - it is the reapers' right to decide. If Shepard ended the Geth (and all synthetic life forms in the destory option) based on the premise "geth aren't alive" - then he has done to the Geth what the reapers have done to the world. This robs Shepard's fight of moral appeal - he is simply fighting for his own survival and future (and that of all organics), but he is no longer really fighting for a moral principle.

Seen in that light, EDI and Legion's roles are not unlike that of Saren - they ingratiated themselves with the "Enemy", in the vain hope that by demonstrating their value they could persuade the "Great Destoryer" to spare their kin of destruction. My, EDI and legion really should have knock Shepard out while they had the chance and handed him to the collectors.


WOW. I had never considered that perspective before. Really, that opens the door for a lot of subtexts. Does Legion *really* not understand organics, or are our conversations with it purely manipulative? EDI is aruably even more suspect in this light.

It does all come down to trust, but if we are to take the endings as canon, on their face (which disgusts me to consider), then perhaps Shepard is unable to tell when an AI is lying to him/her. (Not that I believe this is a serious possibility.)