5087 réponses à ce sujet

[CARL_DF90]

OP, I think I am in love with your teacher. This sums up EVERYTHING that is wrong with ME3 perfectly. Everything that EA/Bioware has been ignoring is right HERE! And it only serves to further demonstrate the idiocy of EA/Bioware and it's staff. The respect points I have for your teacher is magnitudes above the now nonexistent respect I have for EA/Bioware. I tip my hat to you sir. Cheers!

Modifié par CARL_DF90, 05 mai 2012 - 06:34 .

[drayfish]

KitaSaturnyne wrote...

Badassfully: Reading subtle body language would make a great lecture.

Perfect.  Suit up, you just got tenure.

Modifié par drayfish, 05 mai 2012 - 07:57 .

[3DandBeyond]

KitaSaturnyne wrote...

I suppose EDI could do a series of lectures on whether or not androids do indeed dream of electric sheep.

The meaning of synthetic life. 

[Kreidian]

'It’s like ending Pinocchio with Geppetto stuffing him into a wood chipper'.

And that is why I shall continue to go on shooting Haley-Joel-Osment-ghost in the face...

Just cause it needs to be said again.

Such a great read. So very true.

[3DandBeyond]

Very great read. I do want to make one point though. I do wholeheartedly agree that all that the OP says is true and points to the failings in this ending.

I will say that there are some examples of art that strays out of bounds and yet, still works. It's what I see as the Barbra Streisand effect. If you take a look at the parts that make up her face, you might not think they could get together and form a perfect whole, but in a very odd way they do. She never had her nose fixed, because it was her. Her lips are somewhat odd and so on. But, put together (debatable yes) IMO, she is beautiful.

But this is a real balancing act. Something a bit off kilter and the whole thing falls apart. We've all seen it-a painting that defies the rules of composition, form, and flow that does just "look right". A piece of music that doesn't follow any structure we are used to, but it succeeds. Poetry used to be shackled by iambic pentameter and it better rhyme, now isn't and doesn't. But, in all of this the works just better be good enough or they aren't good.

This is also at issue with the endings given. They are not strong enough and not good enough to be the nose on Streisand's face or a stanza in a Maya Angelou piece. They step outside the bounds and bonds of accepted literary form, function, and norms, but just don't fit well together with the rest of ME's face. The game needs a nose job.

[Sable Phoenix]

drayfish wrote...

delta_vee wrote...

I liken this critical tension to wave-particle duality. The game exists as a set of potential states (like a wavefunction). A given playthrough represents the actualization of a single state (like a particle). We cannot ignore any given single playthrough, since we cannot assume a player will ever complete more than one, and thus when discussing the player's experience whatever subset of the whole is exposed has to be treated as if it were all that existed. That said, the rest of the game does exist, if only as potential, so any judgements of what the game itself intends must compare how it responds to varying input. Both perspectives are required for a full understanding of the system, but the type of answer depends on the question asked.

Okay, sorry, I don't mean to butt in on this incredible conversation about the curious nature of narrative form, but I just had to tip my entirely-imaginary hat to delta_vee for that phenomenal description of game structure: the division between choice and consequence (CNC) and expression of preference (EOP), and the way this plays out in the Mass Effect universe. 
 
I was already impressed, nodding along happily, and then you kicked it up a notch with a discussion of wave-particle duality that I actually understood!  To put that in context: I am a vague, bespectacled, ink-smudged luddite that curls into a ball and weeps when someone tries to explain to me what a 'nucleus' is – and yet you laid out splendidly the shifting dynamics of the branching videogame narrative form that not only made complete sense to my weary poetry-addled head, but was extremely illuminating for my own approach to this malleable text. Fine work.
 
I want to quickly say thank you again to you all. I continue to find every angle of this discussion fascinating. It's like I am engaged in the greatest dinner party conversation in the world. 
 
p.s. –  Also, thanks, bc525. I'd still take that beer, earned or not. And Malcolm Shepard sounds like he was a hell of a guy.

Mass Effect: the Schrodinger's Cat of gaming.

[KitaSaturnyne]

drayfish wrote...

Perfect.  Suit up, you just got tenure.

Excellent! I shall make the Elcor version of Hamlet come to life before your eyes.

[botfly10]

Did someone forget to remind this guy that ME is a video game?

[3DandBeyond]

botfly10 wrote...

Did someone forget to remind this guy that ME is a video game?

What is your point?  ME is a video game that tells a story or many stories, as do movies, as do books.  It has a beginning, middle, and end.  Just because it involves interactivity and gunfire doesn't make it any less something literary.

But even if it is just a video game, the failure of the endings becomes even more apparent. 

Bioware inserted the term artistic integrity into the discussion, so it's valid to explore it artistically.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 05 mai 2012 - 08:08 .

[Sable Phoenix]

KitaSaturnyne wrote...

drayfish wrote...

Perfect.  Suit up, you just got tenure.

Excellent! I shall make the Elcor version of Hamlet come to life before your eyes.

An unforgettable fourteen-hour experience!

Swinging back into more serious discussion, and completely related to the recent musings on the nature of synthetic life, I'd highly recommend reading the essay that was linked to in an earlier post, and remains un-commented upon, discussing the Frankenstein Complex and its relvance to the geth.  I'll insert my favorite part of it here:

GodChildInTheMachine wrote...

Remember anthropomorphobia? That sudden revelation and fear of things that shouldn't exist where they do? That is what the Frankenstein's Monster theme is reduced to in the end of Mass Effect 3. It is the difference between Mary Shelley's Frankenstein and the 1931 film starring Boris Karloff. Instead of intelligent beings created out of the folly of Hubris and motivated by the rebellious Luciferian flame of self-determination, we have simple monsters. There is no room here for interpretation; the language of the Catalyst is absolute. The Geth, who were once an intriguing race of synthetic Gnostic monks, have been demoted to boogeymen. All of the rich subtext and exploration of a Frankenstein story are gone; we learn that when these unfortunate accidents of creation happen they are to be squashed by a shoe in utter contempt and never given another moment's consideration. What does that  mean, symbolically, for the creation of man?

"An intriguing race of synthetic Gnostic monks."  That may be the most evocative phrase to describe any fictional race that I've ever seen.  It's my favorite sentence in the essay, but that entire paragraph is just loaded with brilliantly sparkling descriptive language.

One of the subtexts that this essay also introduces in relation to the geth is that of Cosmicism.  Given the direct Lovecraftian influence of the Reapers themselves, I find this an interesting thematic element, i.e., that of a vast, impersonal, unknowable universe that cares nothing for the creatures that inhabit it and will carelessly grind them under its heels, or at the very least shatter their minds if they should ever gaze upon its true nature.  And yet the games make a specific point that life can in fact impose its own will upon that universe, that in the face of superior forces it can stand defiant and triumph.  Shepard does it, in scale large and small, throughout the entire series.  The geth do it in the face of their creators' wrath.  Even the krogan do it, in their own ennui-laden fashion, in defiance of all the rest of the galactic races (and their biology does it unconsciouly, which is why Mordin and his genophage-tweaking team even existed).  Time and time again life, whether organic or synthetic, triumphs on its own terms over all attempts to suppress it.

The ending of Mass Effect 3 flips that on its head.  The only reason life triumphs is because, essentially, the Reapers (via the Catalyst) allow it.  The indomitable spirit which had so far overcome all obstacles is completely ignored.  Especially if the geth are wiped out in the process, which is where the Frankenstein Complex comes into play.  Not only has Cosmicism failed, and somehow the Great Old Ones actually care what happens to the ants, but life's perserverance has failed and it meekly accepts the conditions placed upon it.

Eh... now my stream-of-consciousness is making a muddle of things and obfuscating the point.  Suffice to say, just go read that essay, it's great.

Modifié par Sable Phoenix, 05 mai 2012 - 09:11 .

[botfly10]

3DandBeyond wrote...

botfly10 wrote...

Did someone forget to remind this guy that ME is a video game?

What is your point?  ME is a video game that tells a story or many stories, as do movies, as do books.  It has a beginning, middle, and end.  Just because it involves interactivity and gunfire doesn't make it any less something literary.

But even if it is just a video game, the failure of the endings becomes even more apparent. 

Bioware inserted the term artistic integrity into the discussion, so it's valid to explore it artistically.

My point is that I seriously  doubt the intent was ever to create a rock solid and airtight historical encyclopedia...

Other sci-fi and fantasy epics such as Lord of the Rings, the Ender series, Star Wars, Game of Thrones...  all suffer from the exact same issues.

Modifié par botfly10, 05 mai 2012 - 09:18 .

[botfly10]

Also, you know what they say about teachers... Especially lit teachers...

[botfly10]

Next lets have an analysis on how Finnegan's Wake is totally f***ed because the thematic inconsistencies... ROFL

[M0keys]

botfly10 wrote...

Next lets have an analysis on how Finnegan's Wake is totally f***ed because the thematic inconsistencies... ROFL

Hey let's not and say we did since Finnegan's Wake establishes itself as a dada-esque post-modern experiment from page 1.

[Ianamus]

You don't need to be an academic who studies literature to see how badly written Mass Effect 3's endings are. Adding a completely new character out of the blue right at the end of a story and making them vital to the conclusion is one of the biggest "Don't do's" in writing, and a sure way to end up with a character who everyone will despise. And that's exactly what happened.

[edisnooM]

botfly10 wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

botfly10 wrote...

Did someone forget to remind this guy that ME is a video game?

What is your point?  ME is a video game that tells a story or many stories, as do movies, as do books.  It has a beginning, middle, and end.  Just because it involves interactivity and gunfire doesn't make it any less something literary.

But even if it is just a video game, the failure of the endings becomes even more apparent. 

Bioware inserted the term artistic integrity into the discussion, so it's valid to explore it artistically.

My point is that I seriously  doubt the intent was ever to create a rock solid and airtight historical encyclopedia...

Other sci-fi and fantasy epics such as Lord of the Rings, the Ender series, Star Wars, Game of Thrones...  all suffer from the exact same issues.

I'm sorry, are you saying the Lord of the Rings does not have a rock solid and airtight historical encyclopedia?

If I may direct your attention to The Silmarillion, in which Tolkien completely chronicles the history of the world he created.

He managed to create one of the most concise and complete worlds that I think literature has ever seen, languages, alphabets, lands, peoples, and a history stretching from its creation up to when we enter it as readers. It is a model that I think any writer would be lucky to emulate.

Sorry, fanboy moment. But I stand by what I said.

[Sable Phoenix]

botfly10 wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

botfly10 wrote...

Did someone forget to remind this guy that ME is a video game?

What is your point?  ME is a video game that tells a story or many stories, as do movies, as do books.  It has a beginning, middle, and end.  Just because it involves interactivity and gunfire doesn't make it any less something literary.

But even if it is just a video game, the failure of the endings becomes even more apparent. 

Bioware inserted the term artistic integrity into the discussion, so it's valid to explore it artistically.

My point is that I seriously  doubt the intent was ever to create a rock solid and airtight historical encyclopedia...

Other sci-fi and fantasy epics such as Lord of the Rings, the Ender series, Star Wars, Game of Thrones...  all suffer from the exact same issues.

Did you seriously just use The Lord of the Rings as an example to support the narrative choices made by the authors of Mass Effect 3?

... I'll just leave this here.

And I'll also ask that you cease your trollish behavior and actually contribute something to the discussion.  This thread has been characterized by literacy, erudition, insight, critical analysis, and mutual respect.  We'd all appreciate it if you would show that the courtesy it deserves.

Modifié par Sable Phoenix, 05 mai 2012 - 09:37 .

[botfly10]

edisnooM wrote...

botfly10 wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

botfly10 wrote...

Did someone forget to remind this guy that ME is a video game?

What is your point?  ME is a video game that tells a story or many stories, as do movies, as do books.  It has a beginning, middle, and end.  Just because it involves interactivity and gunfire doesn't make it any less something literary.

But even if it is just a video game, the failure of the endings becomes even more apparent. 

Bioware inserted the term artistic integrity into the discussion, so it's valid to explore it artistically.

My point is that I seriously  doubt the intent was ever to create a rock solid and airtight historical encyclopedia...

Other sci-fi and fantasy epics such as Lord of the Rings, the Ender series, Star Wars, Game of Thrones...  all suffer from the exact same issues.

I'm sorry, are you saying the Lord of the Rings does not have a rock solid and airtight historical encyclopedia?

If I may direct your attention to The Silmarillion, in which Tolkien completely chronicles the history of the world he created.

He managed to create one of the most concise and complete worlds that I think literature has ever seen, languages, alphabets, lands, peoples, and a history stretching from its creation up to when we enter it as readers. It is a model that I think any writer would be lucky to emulate.

Sorry, fanboy moment. But I stand by what I said.

lol

Toche

Just sayin.  All the mechanistic reductionism is killing ME for me.  I love it for what it is rather than hate it for what it isn't.

Modifié par botfly10, 05 mai 2012 - 09:36 .

[edisnooM]

Sable Phoenix wrote...

botfly10 wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

botfly10 wrote...

Did someone forget to remind this guy that ME is a video game?

What is your point?  ME is a video game that tells a story or many stories, as do movies, as do books.  It has a beginning, middle, and end.  Just because it involves interactivity and gunfire doesn't make it any less something literary.

But even if it is just a video game, the failure of the endings becomes even more apparent. 

Bioware inserted the term artistic integrity into the discussion, so it's valid to explore it artistically.

My point is that I seriously  doubt the intent was ever to create a rock solid and airtight historical encyclopedia...

Other sci-fi and fantasy epics such as Lord of the Rings, the Ender series, Star Wars, Game of Thrones...  all suffer from the exact same issues.

Did you seriously just use The Lord of the Rings as an example to support the narrative choices made by the authors of Mass Effect 3?

... I'll just leave this here.

That is a good article. I laughed when I read it a while ago because I used pretty much that exact metaphor about Aragorn and Sam to explain to a friend about why the ending made no sense.

[edisnooM]

botfly10 wrote...

lol

Toche

Just sayin.  All the mechanistic reductionism is killing ME for me.  I love it for what it is rather than hate it for what it isn't.

Yeah sorry for going off a bit of a rant there.

And I too love the Mass Effect universe, which is why I think the ending felt so wrong. They had spent so long constructing this world only to tear it down in such a underwhelming fashion.

After all the codex entries on everything from sleeper pods to Asari reproduction, after all we had learned about this universe, after seeming like they were trying to give us a realistic (as much as possible anyway) SciFi epic, it just felt like they were throwing things at the wall to see what would stick.

Modifié par edisnooM, 05 mai 2012 - 09:43 .

[botfly10]

Well, sorry if my tone was overly confrontational. I just finished ME3 and came here to revel and discuss, only to find giant walls of hate.

To me, the end is all about the assumptions you bring with you and how you use them to fill in the narrative gaps.

I had no problems with merging my assumptions with the end I chose and the whole star child sequence. I had no issues with the associated suspension of belief.

Imo, the meaning of the choices and the ending itself were defined by your personal relationships with the game.

A cop out? Maybe, but I liked it.

Modifié par botfly10, 05 mai 2012 - 09:58 .

[Sable Phoenix]

botfly10 wrote...

Well, sorry if my tone was overly confrontational. I just finished ME3 and came here to revel and discuss, only to find giant walls of hate.

To me, the end is all about the assumptions you bring with you and how you use them to fill in the narrative gaps.

I had no problems with merging my assumptions with the end I chose and the whole star child sequence. I had no issues with the associated suspension of belief.

Imo, the meaning of the choices and the ending itself were defined by your personal relationships with the game.

A cop out? Maybe, but I liked it.

That's actually perfectly valid; I wouldn't call it a copout at all.  The only thing I take issue with is "giant walls of hate".  You're not finding hate here, you're finding critical literary analysis.

You found the ending satisfactory, and that's a good thing.  I actually envy you.  Can you elaborate on how your own assumptions allow you to mesh the ending we got with the themes and narrative of the trilogy?  Maybe you'll end up adding something to the discussion that nobody's thought of yet.

[edisnooM]

botfly10 wrote...

Well, sorry if my tone was overly confrontational. I just finished ME3 and came here to revel and discuss, only to find giant walls of hate.

To me, the end is all about the assumptions you bring with you and how you use them to fill in the narrative gaps.

I had no problems with merging my assumptions with the end I chose and the whole star child sequence. I had no issues with the associated suspension of belief.

Imo, the meaning of the choices and the ending itself were defined by your personal relationships with the game.

A cop out? Maybe, but I liked it.

I second that it's not a cop out.

I have absolutely no problem with people that liked the ending, what I mainly take issue with is when people dismiss me for not liking it because I "didn't get it", which I do not think you are doing.

And from reading some peoples reasons why they liked the ending I can see why they think that way, though I myself do not.

[botfly10]

To clarify, I was referring to the rest of the forum rather than specifically this thread.  Its just kinda shocking for me.

As as assumptions, here goes:

I have never been so affected by a video game.  The whole series is just.... so... incredible.

The level of immersion and emotional attachment to the characters and universe in this franchise is unreal. 

I have been moved and it was good. 


Thessia, Palaven, Rannoch, Tuchanka, Serenity... Saying goodbye to everyone before the final mission...

This series comprises the most emotional involvement and immersion I have EVER experienced in a game. Ever.


First thing that is very important to me, was the entire arc of the 3rd installment. 

For me, most of ME3 is one extended ending.  Rather than saving all the consequences/results for one giant cut scene at the end, you experience them as they occur in "real time"... 

You visit the homeworlds and PLAY through the conclusion for each one as well as most of the main characters.  One by one you tick through what happens on the major planets.

I applaud this approach as imo, it was much more emotionally effective than one extended cut scene...

The missions and their conclusions on Rannoch, Thessia, Tuchanka, and Palaven were so freakin epic and THE MOST emotional experiences I've ever had with a video game.

As for the very end...

The whole game was thick with foreshadowing that it was not going to be nice for Shepard.

And I absolutely agree that its obnoxious how little information you are given with which to make your final decision...  Its also annoying as hell that the consequences of that decision all appear more less the same.

Each of the decisions are so vauge and open to interpretation and largely based on the assumptions you have developed over the course of the game.

That said, here are the assumptions and interpretations that I experienced:

I immediately identified the "Star Child" as an AI put in place to control the reapers and maintain the cycle of "cleansing".  In my mind there was no problem with the assumption that the star child AI was created by whoever initiated that cycle and created the citidel, mass realays, and reapers.  It did not bother me in the moment that it was not explained who made these other than "The Ancients".  I was fine with all that in the moment.  It did not break immersion for me.

As for the choices, here is how I interpreted them in the game, when I encountered them:

1) Control Option.  For me, this one was off the table instantly, as it  reeks of Hubris.  Absolute power and whatnot.  My Shep in no way was heading down that road.

2) Destroy Option.  This option was initially attractive except for one caveat...  It destroys the Geth and presumably EDI.  I was not comfortable with that.

3) Synthesis Option.  Again, how you interpret this comes down to the assumptions you carried into the end sequence.  For me this option meant a synthesis of the biotic and the AI...  Both reapers and organics would be effected  and integrate elements of the other.  To me, there was a lot of  foreshadowing towards this end.  In my mind, I was able to envision an outcome where the reapers are also freed from the cycle by this option much as the organics are.  As with the Geth who achieved self actualization, in my mind this option changed the reapers from
harbingers of destruction into individuals capable of forming a society and civilization.

Through all three installments, my Shep was dedicated to promoting empathy, understanding, and healing.  In every  decision route, I chose to push historical enemies to reconcile and find a way to coexist...  I cured the genophage, freed the Geth, united the galaxy...  So from that perspective, the synthesis option works very well (if you share my assumptions, anyway)

I fully realize and accept that the sythesis option is so vague that you are forced to fill the gaps with your own assuptions... at least thats what I think, anyway.

Just to get it out the way, I had no problem with the mechanics of how the synthesis would work.  It didn't  bother me or even occur to me that the mechanism for doing that is far-fetched.  I had no issues with suspension of belief in that regard.  It did not affect my immersion.

My assumption in the synthesis option was that the different species would largely go on as the separate species they were originally.  To me, the organics would just gain some new powers and some mechanical anatomy, while synthetics gain free will, emotion, hope... self actualization. 

To me, I thought it was actually elegant how it turns out that your motivation and Saren's motivation are actually parallel.  It was also part of my assumption that once actualized, the reapers would value life as organic beings do.

As far as Shep deciding what to do for the whole galaxy... well, to me hard choices was a pervasive theme throughout the series.  I did not like being a single individual making the choice.  But I was there and had to make the call... a burnden I do not carry lightly.


For me this option was about marrying polar opposites and breaking free of the cycle of destruction.  And I feel really good about the decision

Modifié par botfly10, 05 mai 2012 - 11:00 .

[Zenyattaa]

I want to buy that human being a drink.

He explained everything that's wrong with the ending without rising to the use of troll bait and quoting artistic integrity.

Far as I'm concerned the last mission of the game didn't happen.. My personal ret-conned ending begins with the fleets arriving at earth. The super weapon, something targeted at the reapers only crippling the vast majority of them and ends with the tattered remains of a victorious fleet..