5087 réponses à ce sujet

[CARL_DF90]

In honesty, whatever Bioware does with EC it would be in their best interests to take a good, long look at the OP's post and take some notes. Okay, a LOT of notes.

[edisnooM]

KitaSaturnyne wrote...

I've always been put off by IT. While a lot of its arguments are indeed compelling and can be seen as valid in a number of different ways, there's just something about it that gives me pause. Most of the arguments given feel like they were cobbled together by someone grasping at straws.

Regarding the plot, it makes things more confusing to me.

According to IT, Shepard gets annihilated by a giant death laser, and is apparently lying on the ground about to die. Harbinger, apparently finding value in a broken and massively hemmorriging soldier, continues hammering away at Shepard's psyche.

The part that really makes me unable to invest in IT is the way the Rachni Queen's "oily shadows" remark was misinterpreted, almost to the point of being taken out of context. This misinterpretation presents its own plot holes, never mind the ending of ME3.

I think the thought was that the Reapers would make use of Shepard somehow, though for what I'm not entirely sure. And the grasping at straws thing comes out of the whole lack of information we're given at the ending, and people trying to make sense of it.

This has also led to some rather heated debates in many threads as people argue over what the end results of the choices are.

But I guess until BioWare "clarifys" things there will continue to be "Lots of Speculation from Everyone".

Also those blasted Rachni, why can't they speak proper english. 

Modifié par edisnooM, 08 mai 2012 - 03:20 .

[drayfish]

KitaSaturnyne wrote...

I've always been put off by IT.

....

According to IT, Shepard gets annihilated by a giant death laser, and is apparently lying on the ground about to die. Harbinger, apparently finding value in a broken and massively hemmorriging soldier, continues hammering away at Shepard's psyche.

Agreed, KitaSaturnyne.

I should clarify, personally I have little interest in Indoctrination Theory if it turns out that it is no more than an 'alternate' reading on the current canon ending.  Indeed, in such an ending it seems merely a vicious malformation of the player's engagement with the plot, failing to even provide a satisfactory conclusion. 

For IT to work for me it would have to include Shepard waking from this state in some kind of (entirely, completely, widely-distributedly free) DLC package in which the fight continued on to its genuine conclusion, free from ghost-children, singularities, and Joker crash landing on that island from LOST.

Again, all of this is mere speculation (that word again) until we find out what 'clarification' means, and is frankly, as edisnooM suggests, becoming less likely with every passing day. But that would be my ideal, baseless dream...

Modifié par drayfish, 08 mai 2012 - 08:44 .

[KitaSaturnyne]

drayfish wrote...

Agreed, KitaSaturnyne.

I should clarify, personally I have little interest in Indoctrination Theory if it turns out that it is little more an an 'alternate' reading on the current canon ending.  Indeed, in such an ending it seems merely a vicious malformation of the player's engagement with the plot, failing to even provide a satisfactory conclusion. 

For IT to work for me it would have to include Shepard waking from this state in some kind of (entirely, completely, widely-distributedly free) DLC package in which the fight continued on to its genuine conclusion, free from ghost-children, singularities, and Joker crash landing on that island from LOST.

Again, all of this is mere speculation (that word again) until we find out what 'clarification' means, and is frankly, as edisnooM suggests, becoming less likely with every passing day. But that would be my ideal, baseless dream...

Thank you, drayfish.

I think the EC will just be a bunch of scenes piled onto whatever's already there. For example, instead of not knowing what happens to our friends, we'll get something like,

"Garrus went on to marry Tali in a secret ceremony, where much talk about his 'special calibrations' was to be had."

"Liara stayed on as the Shadow Broker for four more years, then quit to marry Samara."

Just stuff like that. Maybe not precisely in that fashion (Was it Ferris Bueller's Day Off that did this?), but something like it. Like anyting else regarding EC at this point, it's of course just speculation.

Am I the only one cursing Mac Walters when that word is used? It's becoming taboo for me.

[Hawk227]

JustifiablyDefenestrated wrote...

I agree that the I was more distraught by the girl's death in the trailer... I think it would have been pretty neat if they had switched the child's gender depending on whether Shep was a girl or guy. (Although, there has been some speculation over whether the girl in the trailer is actually Joker's sister).

Joker's sister was 15. Her death is actually described by the Asari with PTSD in Huerta Memorial Hospital. I thought it was interesting how they told that little story. To make the connection between the Asari and Joker, you had to listen to all of her dialogue and have enough conversations with Joker (at the right time) just to get all the pieces.

It is also interesting that people respond more strongly to the girl. I think it has to do with the vent scene, itself. It's all a little goofy and suspicious. They way he claims the hero of the citadel can't help him, and then disappears. Then reappears at the shuttles (however far away from that vent) just in time to be blasted by the Reaper. It stains that kid with a certain sketchiness, which I'm sure is why he was so quickly connected to IT (rather than Harbinger just stealing the image of an innocent boy).

Drayfish wrote....

I must admit, I really don't know where I stand on believing Indoctrination Theory (Bioware's tepid response so far has seemed to somewhat dismiss it), but as I've ranted about in an earlier post, my goodness I would love if it were so... [snip]

I think it has been interesting that they've flatly refused to deny it, even embracing it on some minor level. My own degree of belief fluctuates pretty regularly. It is at its highest when I'm reviewing the evidence and trying to imagine why those things would be there if it was all meant to be exactly as it appears. I'm not quite willing to chalk it all up to incompetence, yet.

[delta_vee]

Hawk227 wrote...

I think it has been interesting that they've flatly refused to deny it, even embracing it on some minor level. My own degree of belief fluctuates pretty regularly. It is at its highest when I'm reviewing the evidence and trying to imagine why those things would be there if it was all meant to be exactly as it appears. I'm not quite willing to chalk it all up to incompetence, yet.

I think it's partly that they don't want to stamp out clever, alluring interpretations of their (seemingly intentionally) open endings, and partly that they don't wish to rile up those who still hold fast to the idea before they have something else to replace the expected finale with. I think the EC announcement was a low-key denial in and of itself, but since the idea still holds traction in some quarters they're loathe to turn those remaining adherents against them. Once EC comes out (and I sincerely doubt it'll have anything to do with IT) then at least those who believe IT in order to stave of the incoherence of the endings as-is will have something else to chew on instead.

And drayfish, I'm pretty sure your interest in IT will hit that less-than-zero state the instant EC is released. Wait another couple years, though - I'm sure there'll be more than a few devs willing to go where Bioware almost did, and we'll have half a dozen examples of the concept strewn across the landscape. Maybe one of them might even pull it off.

[MrFob]

@ delta_vee: I think it is entirely possible that they wll release an EC that adds to the current ending as it is without disproving the IT. The result will be that IT will never be embraced by BW as such but it may continue in the mid of those fans that like to interpret the ending as such.
In fact, I think this is the best option from BW's perspective at the moment. Their take on the matter seems to be that they do not want to impair any interpretation of their ending, such as they are. Given that, I would be very very surprised if the EC would actually embrace IT as that would disqualify anyone who didn't believe in ti (worse, the message to anti-ITers would come close to: a "haha, you let yourself be indoctrinated, you are stupid!"). This is something BW will stay away from as far as possible.
It would be easy for BW to leave it open as it is while just including some epilogue images or videos (which may be part of the hallucination or real) and some additional scenes to the battle that happen before harby's beam.
IMO this makes the most sense for them and the fact that they have very limited options if they want to avoid making people even more angry makes me very skeptical about the EC.

As for other companies trying this kind of narrative stunt in the future, I am sure this will happen. However, given the amount of discussion that has already been had about IT in ME now, the novelty of the approach is already gone - at least for us here. It's a shame that apparently got such a failed start to what could have been a truly revolutionary concept.

[Hawk227]

I just replayed the Rannoch arc and it reminded me of the discussion we had a few pages ago about the Geth and individuality.

I had remembered that scene incorrectly. The upgrade didn't give all the geth individuality, it would give them the processing power of the Reaper Code, but the free will the that the Reaper did not permit. In ME2, legion explained that he (it?) was a unique platform. Legion was designed to operate solo within organic space, and had more runtimes in lieu of the Geth's normal intellectual strength in numbers. Individual platforms typically had much fewer runtimes and did not have true intelligence, the Reaper code upgraded the rest of the Geth to be like Legion (giving them "true intelligence).

This leaves it's own questions, and it doesn't change the contrived need for Legion's sacrifice, but it makes me feel a little better about how that played out.

[edisnooM]

Discussing what the EC will do makes me think about what future DLC plans Bioware has for the ME universe.

As it stands now, unless the EC changes something in the endings I can't see myself caring about any other DLC Bioware releases. If they do it pre-endgame what's the point? We get some more war assets? And if they do it post-endgame how exactly does that even work?

I know at a lot of people think they'll do some sort of Retake Omega DLC, which could be interesting but again, if it doesn't change anything whats the point?

They clearly had some sort of release plan in the works (hence the infamous pop up), but I don't really see how they can make it work effectively. I suppose there's always multiplayer DLC but I can't see myself caring about that overly much.

[drayfish]

Ghost9191 wrote...
 
well if it is some kind of "god" let us use his logic and rebel against him, i got the feeling like there might be some religious meaning behind the end but i did not care, figured i have worked at this game to destroy the reapers and damn it that is what i will do.. that and i didn't trust the little guy. i smell shenanigans.

but as i was saying, his intentions might be good but there has to be a better way right

What a great thought, Ghost9191. Rebellion. Forging our own path. 
 
You're completely right, all of the narratives at play in this text seem to have some recurring motif of the validity of expressing autonomy after the creation and control of the subjugated. The Geth, the Krogan, the Racchni (even humans, who are left at the kids-table of galactic politics for the first game); all of these races, having been dominated (sometimes according to their oppressors 'for their own good'), are shown to be trying to slough off this dominion in order to forge their own path. Whether or not they succeed is another issue, but the desire is always there.
 
Again, even the dialogue wheel mechanic alludes to this premise. If you're strong enough, self-assured enough, you can choose the extra options – paragon or renegade-plus. 
 
As you say it would have been nice to have seen more of that rebellion and quest for self-identity in the final scenes. ...Perhaps, of course, the Destroy option was meant to serve that function – but I really hate that Ghost-Anakin offers it to us. That shouldn't be his offer to make. It's like telling a dog, 'You can walk yourself; but you'll still be tied to this fence.'
 
p.s. – Your thoughts offer yet another lovely tie to that wonderful Frankenstein article by GhostChildInTheMachine that RollaWarden linked to a few pages back.  A hearty recommend from me for that piece also. Great stuff:
 
http://social.biowar.../index/10550373

Modifié par drayfish, 08 mai 2012 - 08:51 .

[edisnooM]

 I realize that we have perhaps moved on from the discussion of Shepards dreams, however I came across a couple of videos highlighting the ambient audio of them that I found interesting:

www.youtube.com/watch

www.youtube.com/watch

I'm not sure whether they mean anything or not, but I thought it was interesting to note what lay in the background of these scenes. The first one in particular had what sounded like a Reaper or a Geth laughing that was slightly creepy.

Modifié par edisnooM, 08 mai 2012 - 09:03 .

[JustifiablyDefenestrated]

drayfish wrote...
 
You're completely right, all of the narratives at play in this text seem to have some recurring motif of the validity of expressing autonomy after the creation and control of the subjugated. The Geth, the Krogan, the Racchni (even humans, who are left at the kids-table of galactic politics for the first game); all of these races, having been dominated (sometimes according to their oppressors 'for their own good'), are shown to be trying to slough off this dominion in order to forge their own path. Whether or not they succeed is another issue, but the desire is always there.
 
Again, even the dialogue wheel mechanic alludes to this premise. If you're strong enough, self-assured enough, you can choose the extra options – paragon or renegade-plus. 
 

 

This is so utterly perfect! I love this! My persnickety side that likes to overanalyze everything is going haywire. This would also explain all the subversive biblical references strewn throughout the game-- naming the female krogan "Eve", the Edi and Joker scene at the end... even Shepard's sacrifice (and if you're feeling particularly nit-picky, you could include her resurection in the begining of the 2nd game. Edited to add: Cerberus. That is all.)

Also, the Frankenstein link is fascinating.

@
edisnooM 

That is really quite creepy... very interesting. The juxtaposition of the child and the alien voices is downright chilling. 

Modifié par JustifiablyDefenestrated, 08 mai 2012 - 11:06 .

[MrFob]

edisnooM wrote...

 I realize that we have perhaps moved on from the discussion of Shepards dreams, however I came across a couple of videos highlighting the ambient audio of them that I found interesting:

www.youtube.com/watch

www.youtube.com/watch

I'm not sure whether they mean anything or not, but I thought it was interesting to note what lay in the background of these scenes. The first one in particular had what sounded like a Reaper or a Geth laughing that was slightly creepy.

And that's exactly why I think it was a shame to just focus on the boy in the dreams. They had the voice recordings, they had the models for all the dead characters, the animations, they had everything and yet, they chose to use all this material either not at all or just somewhere in the very background and focus solely on this boy. Worse yet, it is obvious they did so to "foreshadow" this ending. Uhg!

[onchristieroad]

bump for agreement!

[3DandBeyond]

M.Erik.Sal wrote...

You know, Shepard really fits the "role" of a Catalyst much better (not in any sense that's analogous to chemistry, but in a purely "this is a thing that causes change" sense) than anything else in narrative.

This was actually what I thought before I "understood" otherwise, though I don't think I ever have fully understood anything.

Most recently I have finally found that there was a reference to some beings like what the Star kid must be meant to be.  I'm sure a lot of people know this already, but it's in the description for the planet Klencory-an eccentric Volus believes there to be beings of light that are protectors of organics, protecting them from synthetics.

But, it's never part of any major plot point and if it was to be the plot at the end, should have been more than just obscurely referenced.   The description of the "beings of light" also goes so much against what the star kid seems to be saying.

If the star kid is one of these "beings of light" then he's totally mixed up and it actually makes the ending far worse (if possible) than it already is.  They actually could have been truly part of an awesome plot line.  If they had come into the picture as some things older than even the reapers maybe and had given Shepard some real ability to do what even their stated goal was, it could have been great.  You could see that maybe they are incapable of doing anything themselves and need Shepard as the Catalyst to do the deed.  But, give Shepard some clear choices, some real ability to do something. 

Still and all, the game breaks down all the way through the Citadel at the end.  Up till Shepard is hit by the reaper beam, you have some urgency; things need to be done quickly.  Once up top, things are in a painful slo-mo mode.  It's not about action (you don't need a lot of action to convey a sense of urgency),  it should be about desperately needing to get things done quickly before all is lost.  This is soooooo missing.  The kid makes it worse.  I could go to sleep.  And then Shepard makes a choice and in thirty seconds, the game's over.  Since it seems you have all the time in the world at the end to listen to the kid drone on about nonsense, you should have time to bleed out.  Or, at least raise your hand and ask for a bathroom break (I mean, ask a question).  This is in contrast with the ME1 ending, which actually was extremely similar in the way the ending began-Conduit and Citadel.

[3DandBeyond]

This is a great thread that indicates some things people didn't want in Mass Effect games-it's 2 years old and one user, screwoffreg, continually points to things that seem to have eventually made their way into ME3's ending. It's like Bioware read the thread and did the opposite of what people said they didn't want to see. God-being, Deus Ex, and so on, added in at the end.  It's really eerie.

http://social.biowar.../index/970146/1

Probably most people already know of this, but I really only joined these forums when I finished ME3 and was appalled at the ending.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 08 mai 2012 - 02:57 .

[NorDee65]

Sorry to backtrack a bit, but a few pages earlier people were discussing, whether the originally intended ending (read "dark energie") would have worked better. (Anything would have been better than what we have got...)

To break it down, the ending would have involved a choice between certain death now and probable universe-wide annihilation later.

When I first played ME1 I was wondering how BW were going to explain the Reapers. Sovereigns speech on Virmire was magnificent and fueled speculation. The endings we got do, not in any way honor that. But would the "dark energy" scenario have worked, instead? The problem is that (just as the endings now) it is based on sketchy scientific detail. What IS dark energy? does it actually exist? The vote is still out on that one. (Just as it is out on "dark matter"). To incorporate an idea so unfinished as an ending scenario might have been nigh unto impossible; hence these alternative endings. (I kind of imagined the writers -or maybe just 2 people- running around saying,"what should we do, we do not understand dark energy. Wait! Why not use ....")

Mabe it would have been better to portray the Reapers as a program gone rogue. There is still enough stuff for nightmares especially if one recollects the trillions of minds within the Reapers (information received from Legion). Are they aware on some level? do they go "Go Reaper Go" or are they perpetually screaming "we want out?". Were the humans aware in the Reaper larva and shouting for Shepard to save them or destroy them? Is beeing sloshed into a Reaper tantamount to entering The Matrix? If Shepard would have becomne aware that within each Reaper a nation resides (maybe indoctrinated or not), how would that effect the "destroy-option"? Could the quest to save this cycle also include "saving" every cycle that has come before?

Oh and concerning the universe-wide annihilation idea...That's still out there and nevermind the Reapers (Big Crash, Big Rip, or Big Freeze, take your pick)

[KitaSaturnyne]

NorDee65 wrote...

Sorry to backtrack a bit, but a few pages earlier people were discussing, whether the originally intended ending (read "dark energie") would have worked better. (Anything would have been better than what we have got...)

To break it down, the ending would have involved a choice between certain death now and probable universe-wide annihilation later.

When I first played ME1 I was wondering how BW were going to explain the Reapers. Sovereigns speech on Virmire was magnificent and fueled speculation. The endings we got do, not in any way honor that. But would the "dark energy" scenario have worked, instead? The problem is that (just as the endings now) it is based on sketchy scientific detail. What IS dark energy? does it actually exist? The vote is still out on that one. (Just as it is out on "dark matter"). To incorporate an idea so unfinished as an ending scenario might have been nigh unto impossible; hence these alternative endings. (I kind of imagined the writers -or maybe just 2 people- running around saying,"what should we do, we do not understand dark energy. Wait! Why not use ....")

Mabe it would have been better to portray the Reapers as a program gone rogue. There is still enough stuff for nightmares especially if one recollects the trillions of minds within the Reapers (information received from Legion). Are they aware on some level? do they go "Go Reaper Go" or are they perpetually screaming "we want out?". Were the humans aware in the Reaper larva and shouting for Shepard to save them or destroy them? Is beeing sloshed into a Reaper tantamount to entering The Matrix? If Shepard would have becomne aware that within each Reaper a nation resides (maybe indoctrinated or not), how would that effect the "destroy-option"? Could the quest to save this cycle also include "saving" every cycle that has come before?

Oh and concerning the universe-wide annihilation idea...That's still out there and nevermind the Reapers (Big Crash, Big Rip, or Big Freeze, take your pick)

I have the feeling that if they had decided to go the "dark energy" route, they would have done a lot more to explain it in terms of what it is, how it affects the universe, etc. After all, they botched an ending, they're not inept storytellers. At least, I hope not.

That is a really interesting and compelling way to characterize the Reapers as well. I'd never thought of them that way, being personally content with the idea that they just come into the galaxy and destroy advanced civilizations for some reason we never know, but what an interesting concept nonetheless.

[KitaSaturnyne]

Made Nightwing wrote...

And this was the analogy I made to Made Nightwing in our discussion (and which I have bored people with elsewhere): this bewildering finale felt as if you had been listening to a soaring orchestral movement that ended in a cacophonous blast, the musicians tossing down their instruments and walking away. I find it hard to conceive how the creators of such a magnificent franchise could have made such a mess of their own universe. The plot holes, thematic inconsistencies and a deus ex machina that was unforgivable in ancient Greek theatre, let alone in any modern narrative, all combine to erode the foundations upon which the rest of the experience resides. (It's a disturbing sign when apologists for such an ending have to literally hope that what they witnessed was just a bad dream in the central character's head.)

Re: The bolded statement

I was just wondering what part of the narrative you were referring to here. If you were referring to the Crucible, it's not a deus ex machina, it's a plot device. The timing in terms of finding its plans was certainly convenient to say the absolute least, but it does not embody the concept of the deus ex machina used in fiction. If you were referring to the Catalyst, it is almost quite literally a god from a machine, but the character itself doesn't save the day at all, let alone in a fashion that could be construed as a deus ex machina.

If the Crucible were to suddenly show up out of nowhere and attach itself to the Citadel after Shepard gets blasted by Harbinger's beam and stop the Reapers, then it could be considered a deus ex machina. Since that's not the case though, the term doesn't apply here.

[JadedLibertine]

NorDee65 wrote...

Sorry to backtrack a bit, but a few pages earlier people were discussing, whether the originally intended ending (read "dark energie") would have worked better. (Anything would have been better than what we have got...)

To break it down, the ending would have involved a choice between certain death now and probable universe-wide annihilation later.

When I first played ME1 I was wondering how BW were going to explain the Reapers. Sovereigns speech on Virmire was magnificent and fueled speculation. The endings we got do, not in any way honor that. But would the "dark energy" scenario have worked, instead? The problem is that (just as the endings now) it is based on sketchy scientific detail. What IS dark energy? does it actually exist? The vote is still out on that one. (Just as it is out on "dark matter"). To incorporate an idea so unfinished as an ending scenario might have been nigh unto impossible; hence these alternative endings. (I kind of imagined the writers -or maybe just 2 people- running around saying,"what should we do, we do not understand dark energy. Wait! Why not use ....")

Mabe it would have been better to portray the Reapers as a program gone rogue. There is still enough stuff for nightmares especially if one recollects the trillions of minds within the Reapers (information received from Legion). Are they aware on some level? do they go "Go Reaper Go" or are they perpetually screaming "we want out?". Were the humans aware in the Reaper larva and shouting for Shepard to save them or destroy them? Is beeing sloshed into a Reaper tantamount to entering The Matrix? If Shepard would have becomne aware that within each Reaper a nation resides (maybe indoctrinated or not), how would that effect the "destroy-option"? Could the quest to save this cycle also include "saving" every cycle that has come before?

Oh and concerning the universe-wide annihilation idea...That's still out there and nevermind the Reapers (Big Crash, Big Rip, or Big Freeze, take your pick)

That is brilliant and very close to how I imagined the Reapers.  They were not some higher power bringing order to the Universe, nothing they ever said was true they just believed it to be.   They cannot remember who created them or what purpose they were created for, the creators have either died or long lost interest and forgotten about them.  The Catalyst is simply a manifestation of thir collective consciousness.  Their very existence is a mistake and their endless cycles of genocide stunt and retard life in the galaxy, preventing it from ever reaching it's full potential.  They are a parasitic species who have to use the genetic material of other races to reproduce, they have no culture, they innovate nothing, they have immense power but display little intelligence, their long lives should have given them some perspective and wisdom but they have none.  Surely after so many cycles they should harvest quickly and efficently but they do so with spite and petty cruelty.  The ending changed them from Lovecraftian horror to pathetically ignorant and deluded, which made them even more monstrous and irredeemable.  We owe it to all the species they wiped out to use their technology as there is no way they invented any of it themselves.

Though I can't see how it would have been any better than what we got, the dark energy ending would have had some resonance with real life environmental concerns.  Whether our planet is able to support us as a species.  As opposed to synthetic v organics, I suspect the chances of my computer, consoles and phone becoming self aware and then trying to wipe me out is not terribly likely.

[JadedLibertine]

KitaSaturnyne wrote...

Made Nightwing wrote...

And this was the analogy I made to Made Nightwing in our discussion (and which I have bored people with elsewhere): this bewildering finale felt as if you had been listening to a soaring orchestral movement that ended in a cacophonous blast, the musicians tossing down their instruments and walking away. I find it hard to conceive how the creators of such a magnificent franchise could have made such a mess of their own universe. The plot holes, thematic inconsistencies and a deus ex machina that was unforgivable in ancient Greek theatre, let alone in any modern narrative, all combine to erode the foundations upon which the rest of the experience resides. (It's a disturbing sign when apologists for such an ending have to literally hope that what they witnessed was just a bad dream in the central character's head.)

Re: The bolded statement

I was just wondering what part of the narrative you were referring to here. If you were referring to the Crucible, it's not a deus ex machina, it's a plot device. The timing in terms of finding its plans was certainly convenient to say the absolute least, but it does not embody the concept of the deus ex machina used in fiction. If you were referring to the Catalyst, it is almost quite literally a god from a machine, but the character itself doesn't save the day at all, let alone in a fashion that could be construed as a deus ex machina.

If the Crucible were to suddenly show up out of nowhere and attach itself to the Citadel after Shepard gets blasted by Harbinger's beam and stop the Reapers, then it could be considered a deus ex machina. Since that's not the case though, the term doesn't apply here.

Steange Aeons touched on this in an earlier post.  Not sure if it answers your point but it makes me smile.

"The thing about a deus ex machina--and to dignify the ending with that term is to be charitable enough to place it within a literary tradition--is that the audience must understand and accept the authority of the god for it to work. When it was Hercules or Apollo descending before the audience of Euripedes' day, people knew who they were. We know nothing whatsoever about the Catalyst; he is dumped upon the audience with absolutely no buildup or justification, and we are compelled to accept his three "choices" at face value "

[Hawk227]

KitaSaturnyne wrote...

Made Nightwing wrote...

And this was the analogy I made to Made Nightwing in our discussion (and which I have bored people with elsewhere): this bewildering finale felt as if you had been listening to a soaring orchestral movement that ended in a cacophonous blast, the musicians tossing down their instruments and walking away. I find it hard to conceive how the creators of such a magnificent franchise could have made such a mess of their own universe. The plot holes, thematic inconsistencies and a deus ex machina that was unforgivable in ancient Greek theatre, let alone in any modern narrative, all combine to erode the foundations upon which the rest of the experience resides. (It's a disturbing sign when apologists for such an ending have to literally hope that what they witnessed was just a bad dream in the central character's head.)

Re: The bolded statement

I was just wondering what part of the narrative you were referring to here. If you were referring to the Crucible, it's not a deus ex machina, it's a plot device. The timing in terms of finding its plans was certainly convenient to say the absolute least, but it does not embody the concept of the deus ex machina used in fiction. If you were referring to the Catalyst, it is almost quite literally a god from a machine, but the character itself doesn't save the day at all, let alone in a fashion that could be construed as a deus ex machina.

If the Crucible were to suddenly show up out of nowhere and attach itself to the Citadel after Shepard gets blasted by Harbinger's beam and stop the Reapers, then it could be considered a deus ex machina. Since that's not the case though, the term doesn't apply here.

I agree that the Catalyst is not a deus ex machina. He doesn't really do anything, and I think the response to the end shows he didn't "save the day". I would say he's either a diabolous ex machina or a perhaps an (unreliable) narrator. Although, edinooM's suggestion that he is simply a signpost does seem most appropriate. "Dis way 4 blu splosions" indeed. (That made me genuinely LOL when I first read it).

As for the Crucible, I think it is a deus ex machina. This game has always been billed as a trilogy, and one you had to play from beginning to end to get the whole story. In that context, the crucible didn't show up until Act 3, and showed up pretty much unearned. As Seijin hilariously put it: "We found it in C://documentsandsettings/Crucible/Superweapon, never thought to look there before". In the context of just ME3, the Crucible may be better described as a Macguffin. We don't know what it does, but it drives the plot. Either way, I found both the Crucible and Catalyst to be unsatisfying plot devices.

[edisnooM]

3DandBeyond wrote...

M.Erik.Sal wrote...

You know, Shepard really fits the "role" of a Catalyst much better (not in any sense that's analogous to chemistry, but in a purely "this is a thing that causes change" sense) than anything else in narrative.

This was actually what I thought before I "understood" otherwise, though I don't think I ever have fully understood anything.

Most recently I have finally found that there was a reference to some beings like what the Star kid must be meant to be.  I'm sure a lot of people know this already, but it's in the description for the planet Klencory-an eccentric Volus believes there to be beings of light that are protectors of organics, protecting them from synthetics.

But, it's never part of any major plot point and if it was to be the plot at the end, should have been more than just obscurely referenced.   The description of the "beings of light" also goes so much against what the star kid seems to be saying.

If the star kid is one of these "beings of light" then he's totally mixed up and it actually makes the ending far worse (if possible) than it already is.  They actually could have been truly part of an awesome plot line.  If they had come into the picture as some things older than even the reapers maybe and had given Shepard some real ability to do what even their stated goal was, it could have been great.  You could see that maybe they are incapable of doing anything themselves and need Shepard as the Catalyst to do the deed.  But, give Shepard some clear choices, some real ability to do something. 

Still and all, the game breaks down all the way through the Citadel at the end.  Up till Shepard is hit by the reaper beam, you have some urgency; things need to be done quickly.  Once up top, things are in a painful slo-mo mode.  It's not about action (you don't need a lot of action to convey a sense of urgency),  it should be about desperately needing to get things done quickly before all is lost.  This is soooooo missing.  The kid makes it worse.  I could go to sleep.  And then Shepard makes a choice and in thirty seconds, the game's over.  Since it seems you have all the time in the world at the end to listen to the kid drone on about nonsense, you should have time to bleed out.  Or, at least raise your hand and ask for a bathroom break (I mean, ask a question).  This is in contrast with the ME1 ending, which actually was extremely similar in the way the ending began-Conduit and Citadel.

On the topic of Shepard being more Catalysty than the Catalyst, I was just thinking how interesting it might have been if that had turned out to be the case. That the Catalyst for the crucible turned out to be a person, that it required someone to willingly sacrifice themselves into it in order for it to fire. In this way at the end Shepard could have had the choice of choosing how it had fired, whether to control the Reapers or destroy them, in way that made a bit more sense (not really sure how Synthesis would have fit here though).

And then perhaps if your EMS was high enough, if you had done enough things right, maybe Shepard could survive the destroy choice similarly to how s/he does now.

This could also have been an interesting conflict with TIM, as perhaps he discovers what the Catalyst is as well and races to try and become it himself.

[TheMarshal]

 Oh lordy...  after a week of reading (Darn work and school getting in the way of my Mass Effectin'!) I've finally got through the entirety of this thread!  It's all amazing stuff, and I wish I had the background to contribute to the literary analysis.  Alas, I'm just an engineer playing at being a writer...

I really want the option to argue with the ReaperChild, to point out the flaws in its arguments and just show it how broken it is.  I mean, thinking that you can control chaos, that you can somehow stamp it out completely.  That such a thing is even desirable.  We've got the ReaperChild, who presumably has reached the "pinnacle" of evolution, and for billions of years has been stuck like that because they've tried to stamp out chaos.  Whereas we, organics, have slowly but surely been beating it, been proving it wrong by ensuring our thoughts survive between cycles through the Crucible plans.  We don't know how homogenous the cycles which predate the Protheans were, but I find it telling that this cycle, with so many various forms of advanced life, was the one which managed to complete the Crucible and reach the ReaperChild.  We made the ReaperChild realize that it made a mistake (omg, did you just learn something?) and it's new solution is...

More of the same.

Stamp out chaos by trying to dominate it.  Stamp out chaos by trying to destroy it.  Or stamp out chaos by trying to eliminate the source of it and homogenize the galaxy (don't even get me started on how ridiculous that notion is).  Where's the fourth option?  To let it be?  To accept that chaos is going to be a part of life?  If you're so advanced, if you've reached the pinnacle of evolution, then surely you have the power to call off the Reapers.  The power to tell them the war is over, and we have earned our right to live our lives as we choose.  No?  Don't have that power?  It's impossible, you say?  Bull...  I don't have enough fingers on my hands to count the number of impossible things that I had to do to get here.  Maybe you're not as done evolving as you think you are if you're okay with "impossible."  Maybe you need something like a little chaos in your life, poking and prodding you, egging you on, urging you to make yourself more than you were yesterday.  Maybe you need that fourth option.

But you don't have it, because billions of years ago you decided you were done evolving, and that rather than taking on the difficulties that beset your life and trying to overcome them you decided to try and attack reality itself and prevent the very thing that introduced chaos into the universe.  And yet here I am.  You've lost.  You're broken.  You can't be fixed because you don't have the capacity to fix yourself.  And if you're not going to call the Reapers off, if you can't call the Reapers off, then I'm done with you.

Whew...  Sorry.  That was cathartic.

[edisnooM]

NorDee65 wrote...

Sorry to backtrack a bit, but a few pages earlier people were discussing, whether the originally intended ending (read "dark energie") would have worked better. (Anything would have been better than what we have got...)

To break it down, the ending would have involved a choice between certain death now and probable universe-wide annihilation later.

When I first played ME1 I was wondering how BW were going to explain the Reapers. Sovereigns speech on Virmire was magnificent and fueled speculation. The endings we got do, not in any way honor that. But would the "dark energy" scenario have worked, instead? The problem is that (just as the endings now) it is based on sketchy scientific detail. What IS dark energy? does it actually exist? The vote is still out on that one. (Just as it is out on "dark matter"). To incorporate an idea so unfinished as an ending scenario might have been nigh unto impossible; hence these alternative endings. (I kind of imagined the writers -or maybe just 2 people- running around saying,"what should we do, we do not understand dark energy. Wait! Why not use ....")

Mabe it would have been better to portray the Reapers as a program gone rogue. There is still enough stuff for nightmares especially if one recollects the trillions of minds within the Reapers (information received from Legion). Are they aware on some level? do they go "Go Reaper Go" or are they perpetually screaming "we want out?". Were the humans aware in the Reaper larva and shouting for Shepard to save them or destroy them? Is beeing sloshed into a Reaper tantamount to entering The Matrix? If Shepard would have becomne aware that within each Reaper a nation resides (maybe indoctrinated or not), how would that effect the "destroy-option"? Could the quest to save this cycle also include "saving" every cycle that has come before?

Oh and concerning the universe-wide annihilation idea...That's still out there and nevermind the Reapers (Big Crash, Big Rip, or Big Freeze, take your pick)

I had actually wondered about the people that been harvested to make the Reapers. I wondered if perhaps the Catalyst "dampens" them somehow and that if it were removed would they become aware of what they are. I can't really imagine anyone being harvested by the Reapers and being ok with it. 

I'm not sure if anyone here watches Doctor Who, but in the Christmas Special "The Next Doctor", a woman had been hooked up to a system that gave her control of a race of beings called  the Cybermen, however the Doctor disabled something (forget what they called it) that made her aware of what she had become and she was horrified at it. I wondered if something like this might be the case with the Reapers.

Another story that I am reminded of is Fullmetal Alchemist, a Japanese manga. SPOILERS if you haven't read it before and intend to do so.

In the story Philosphers stones are created by breaking down humans, essentially taking there life force or "soul" and using it as a power source. There are then beings called Homunculous that are created by using a Philosphers stone as a core, however several times in the story you are shown that the people that were used to create the stone and are now part of the Homunculous are still aware of themselves and their existance.

Modifié par edisnooM, 08 mai 2012 - 10:08 .