5087 réponses à ce sujet

[KitaSaturnyne]

delta_vee wrote...

I realize the rachni queen's "sour note from space" bit was suggestive of indoctrination, but I think it was supposed to be a hook rather than a complete idea, to be revisited later on - which we didn't really get, given how little the rachni plot mattered in the end.

Didn't Javik say that Rachni were uplifted to be pets for the Protheans? If that did happen, could the Rachni Wars be attributed to that decision somehow?

The Protheans went by the idea that other species were to be conquered, and if they fought back for their freedom, so be it. The Rachni could have adopted that attitude from their uplifters, perhaps having been more primitive than the Krogan when uplifted. Then, the Citadel races come through the relay, and the Rachni see just another target to dominate like their Prothean masters once did.

What you said probably best expresses why I doubt Rachni indoctrination so much, delta_vee.

[KitaSaturnyne]

TheMarshal wrote...

Saren opened the ward arms, though.  Hence, I guess, the need for the conduit in the first place.  The conduit allowed Saren to act as an inside man, opening the arms after they were predictably closed once Sovereign launched the attack (with enough geth to keep the main forces busy).  On his own, without Saren or the geth, Sovereign would have had to deal with a closed Citadel and combined defensive forces of the Citadel fleet.

You've got your facts reversed. Saren was there to reactivate the Citadel as a mass relay. The arms closed after Sovereign was close enough to the Presidium tower. It was Shepard who opened the arms so the fleets could attack.

[DStyles516]

ShepnTali wrote...

He's an entitled whiner who doesn't get it.

Obvious Troll is obvious

on a side note though, why do we have to wait so long for a 5 minute dlc video (that won't live up to the clarification promised) when it only takes a team a week to do at most? Some ending-haters that moved on will only be reminded of how much they hated the ending once the dlc is available.

[TheMarshal]

KitaSaturnyne wrote...

TheMarshal wrote...

Saren opened the ward arms, though.  Hence, I guess, the need for the conduit in the first place.  The conduit allowed Saren to act as an inside man, opening the arms after they were predictably closed once Sovereign launched the attack (with enough geth to keep the main forces busy).  On his own, without Saren or the geth, Sovereign would have had to deal with a closed Citadel and combined defensive forces of the Citadel fleet.

You've got your facts reversed. Saren was there to reactivate the Citadel as a mass relay. The arms closed after Sovereign was close enough to the Presidium tower. It was Shepard who opened the arms so the fleets could attack.

Yeah, I'll definitely have to replay ME1 at some point...  I know that the Citadel arms were ordered to close once Sovereign began his attack.  Saren was there to reactivate the Citadel as a Mass Relay, but it was going to take Sovereign to place the call?  Is that about right?

Modifié par TheMarshal, 09 mai 2012 - 06:46 .

[KitaSaturnyne]

TheMarshal wrote...

Yeah, I'll definitely have to replay ME1 at some point...  I know that the Citadel arms were ordered to close once Sovereign begain his attack.  Saren was there to reactivate the Citadel as a Mass Relay, but it was going to take Sovereign to make the call?  Is that about right?

Seems about right, although it seems equally likely that Sovereign would just have to be there once the Citadel relay comes back online. The Citadel's reactivation just in itself could serve as the Reaper's alarm clock. It's like the Reapers get there, wonder who Saren is, and Sovereign's just like, "it's cool, he's with me".

That said, does the Citadel have some sort of biological purge protocol? The Citadel invariably becomes the central focus of each galactic civilization, and the Reapers need to control it once the latest harvest gets rolling. I just imagine that once the Reapers arrive and are accounted for or whatever, the Citadel flash fries all living things in it. This could include the Keepers, but they're always replaced by some assembly line we never see anyway.

Oh, I also missed a point: The fleets order the Citadel arms closed, but Sovereign manages to squeak in just in time. My bad. There's still every reason to believe that Sovereign could have closed them on its own, though.

Modifié par KitaSaturnyne, 09 mai 2012 - 06:57 .

[delta_vee]

TheMarshal wrote...

Yeah...  I mean narratively speaking, the Reapers needed some way to get into the galaxy without the Citadel.  Having it take them only three years at FTL speeds seems silly, but ultimately necessary for storytelling purposes.

Necessary for the overall direction they went in ME3, yes. That said, I think it was a mistake to open with the Reapers' arrival as they did. It provided the dire circumstances expected, but led to a stack of contrivances. (The Arrival DLC didn't help, seeing as though it appeared to render ME1's plot unnecessary as well.)

If you'll permit me a touch of revisionist history, I think it would've been a better direction to open the game before the Reapers hit. Let TIM take the Saren role (which would make the Citadel coup make a whole lot more sense). Let the relays get locked out for a time, and have the Normandy (with the Reaper IFF still in place) be the only ship still capable of relay travel.
 

[TheMarshal]

delta_vee wrote...

Necessary for the overall direction they went in ME3, yes. That said, I think it was a mistake to open with the Reapers' arrival as they did. It provided the dire circumstances expected, but led to a stack of contrivances. (The Arrival DLC didn't help, seeing as though it appeared to render ME1's plot unnecessary as well.)

If you'll permit me a touch of revisionist history, I think it would've been a better direction to open the game before the Reapers hit. Let TIM take the Saren role (which would make the Citadel coup make a whole lot more sense). Let the relays get locked out for a time, and have the Normandy (with the Reaper IFF still in place) be the only ship still capable of relay travel.
 

Yeah...  The more I think about the way the plot was handled in ME3, the less I like it.

Arrival forces her to Earth for the opening, but for what?   Part of it (Reapers attacking Earth in the opening sequence) was done to make for a hugely dramatic moment right off the bat, to give the player a sense of "**** just got real".  I can respect that, but having Shepard sitting on her duff for 6 months prior to that when she knows the Reapers are in the galaxy the entire time is just silly.  And the Crucible construction functions well as a progress meter for the game, but really?  They're just now discovering the plans for it on the only planet in the Sol system that has Prothean tech laying about?  Plus it ripped Liara out of the Shadow Broker role (thus rendering LotSB moot), when that role would have been invaluable had the Reapers simply not been at Earth straight from the get-go (why didn't she know about it in the first place is another *headdesk* moment).  Additionally, the Reapers attacking Earth right away also conveys a sense of urgency, a sense which is absolutely murdered the first time you do a side mission.  Really?  Earth is being destroyed and I'm digging up the remains of extinct animals for the krogans to ride into battle??  (Gotta admit, though... That would have been AWESOME to see!)

Lots of unfortunate decisions made in the name of blockbustering ME3...  If I wasn't in school at the moment, I'd love to get a collaborative effort going to rework ME3's plotline - top to bottom - into something that would make more sense from a storytelling perspective, while hopefully preserving the appeal from a gaming perspective.

Modifié par TheMarshal, 09 mai 2012 - 07:15 .

[helloween7]

Well, my theory on the Rachni is that they encountered some reaper tech somewhere (like Object Rho in Arrival, or another Reaper corpse) and the indoctrination signal sent their own "song" haywire.

@KitaSaturnyne: Javik said that the Rachni were bred as a weapons ("biological proxies", I think he said, to be used in environments with harsh conditions, much like the Krogan), and that they selected the more cunning and warlike of the Queens to breed, until they became too cunning and warlike.



I'm trying to replay ME1 these days (I keep getting the blue screen of death, tough, so it's frustrating at times). The thing is, I was taking a tour of the Presidium with Kaidan and Ashley and when we got to the "relay monument" Kaidan commented on the noise it made. And that got me thinking. So, now we know that the Citadel is Reaper Central (and a reference to its inaccessible core it's made VERY early in the game). We know that the Starkid lives there, and always has. Then why aren't the people living in the Citadel (the seat of government of all Galactic societies ever) indoctrinated to hell and back?

The Reapers seem adamant on making things harder for themselves than they need to be.



EDIT: Oh. Wait.

That would actually explain a couple of things... Like how the Council insists on "dismissing that claim". 

Hah! I new that godawful Muzak during the elevator rides was Evil!!!! 

Modifié par helloween7, 09 mai 2012 - 07:34 .

[KitaSaturnyne]

helloween7 wrote...

Well, my theory on the Rachni is that they encountered some reaper tech somewhere (like Object Rho in Arrival, or another Reaper corpse) and the indoctrination signal sent their own "song" haywire.

@KitaSaturnyne: Javik said that the Rachni were bred as a weapons ("biological proxies", I think he said, to be used in environments with harsh conditions, much like the Krogan), and that they selected the more cunning and warlike of the Queens to breed, until they became too cunning and warlike.



I'm trying to replay ME1 these days (I keep getting the blue screen of death, tough, so it's frustrating at times). The thing is, I was taking a tour of the Presidium with Kaidan and Ashley and when we got to the "relay monument" Kaidan commented on the noise it made. And that got me thinking. So, now we know that the Citadel is Reaper Central (and a reference to its inaccessible core it's made VERY early in the game). We know that the Starkid lives there, and always has. Then why aren't the people living in the Citadel (the seat of government of all Galactic societies ever) indoctrinated to hell and back?

The Reapers seem adamant on making things harder for themselves than they need to be.



EDIT: Oh. Wait.

That would actually explain a couple of things... Like how the Council insists on "dismissing that claim". 

Hah! I new that godawful Muzak during the elevator rides was Evil!!!! 

Ah, that's right. So the Protheans changed Rachni society into one where the most warlike were dominant. Then, the Citadel races happen along, and the Rachni don't see potential alliances, they see targets. The Queen you meet during the game wasn't born during this time, so it wasn't conditioned to have such a martial perspective of things. Thus, she and her children are not inherently violent.

I'm definitely supporting the idea that it's the fault of the Protheans and their misguided plan rather than it being a product of Reaper indoctrination.

The relay on the presidium is based on mass relay technology and was constructed by the Protheans, not the Reapers. Kaidan's "hum" reference I think was to foreshadow that it was an actual working relay, not just a statue. That said, it is easy to see the value behind adding indoctrination functionality to the Citadel. Makes for less resistance by the time Harvest '86 rolls around.

Modifié par KitaSaturnyne, 09 mai 2012 - 07:51 .

[helloween7]

KitaSaturnyne wrote...

I'm definitely supporting the idea that it's the fault of the Protheans and their misguided plan rather than it being a product of Reaper indoctrination.

That doesn't explain the "sour yellow note" nor the "oily shadows", though. 

KitaSaturnyne wrote...

The relay on the presidium is based on mass relay technology and was constructed by the Protheans, not the Reapers. Kaidan's "hum" reference I think was to foreshadow that it was an actual working relay, not just a statue. That said, it is easy to see the value behind adding indoctrination functionality to the Citadel. Makes for less resistance by the time Harvest '86 rolls around.

 

Yeah. It's just that Kaidan's comment about the hum making his teeth tingle made me think about indoctrination.

Not that I thought that the Conduit was actually doing the indoctrinating, but that something in the Citadel should have been indoctrinating people.

Modifié par helloween7, 09 mai 2012 - 08:40 .

[KitaSaturnyne]

helloween7 wrote...

That doesn't explain the "sour yellow note" nor the "oily shadows", though.

The "sour yellow note" refers to the Protheans forcing the Rachni to do their bidding as proxy soldiers.

The "oily shadows" remark is misinterpreted, especially in terms of Indoctrination Theory. The remark refers to the anger and violence permeating the Rachni Wars, and don't have anything to do with Shepard's dreams or indoctrination.

[helloween7]

KitaSaturnyne wrote...
The "sour yellow note" refers to the Protheans forcing the Rachni to do their bidding as proxy soldiers.

The "oily shadows" remark is misinterpreted, especially in terms of Indoctrination Theory. The remark refers to the anger and violence permeating the Rachni Wars, and don't have anything to do with Shepard's dreams or indoctrination.

I still haven't gotten to Noveria in my current playthrough (and it'll be a while before I encounter the Rachni emissary on Illium in Mass Effect 2) so I might be misremembering, but I got the distinct impression that some external forces were at play during the Rachni Wars (and that's a very, very long time after the Protheans went out of the picture, at any rate).  

Modifié par helloween7, 09 mai 2012 - 09:03 .

[Hawk227]

delta_vee wrote...

TheMarshal wrote...

Yeah...  I mean narratively speaking, the Reapers needed some way to get into the galaxy without the Citadel.  Having it take them only three years at FTL speeds seems silly, but ultimately necessary for storytelling purposes.

Necessary for the overall direction they went in ME3, yes. That said, I think it was a mistake to open with the Reapers' arrival as they did. It provided the dire circumstances expected, but led to a stack of contrivances. (The Arrival DLC didn't help, seeing as though it appeared to render ME1's plot unnecessary as well.)

@TheMarshal

At 30ly/day, it would take the Reapers only 238 years to travel to Andromeda (EDIT: Which is 2.6 million ly away), the closest galaxy to the Milky Way. In three years they could travel 32850 ly, which is almost exactly 1/3 the diameter of the Milky Way. So they where 1/3 the diameter of the Milky way from the Alpha Relay at the edge of the galaxy. That seems reasonable to me.

@Delta_vee

The significance of the Citadel wasn't that it was a door back into the Milky Way, but a hugely important tactical tool to "cut the head off the snake", if you will. The Citadel is always the seat of government, and by returning directly there, the Reapers can effectively end any organized resistance before the rest of the Galaxy knows what happened. By the time of Sovereign's attack at the end of ME1 Shepard and Saren were the only ones that even acknowledged the Reapers were real, the trap was still set. When that failed, the sneak attack was lost and they had to do it the old fashioned way, but we see in ME3 (where the Reapers lose quite a few ships) that the old fashioned way against an organized opposition is not as effective. So the backdoor through the Citadel was worth waiting for.

As for the Rachni, the Asari you meet on illium if you freed the queen makes it pretty clear they were indoctrinated. Or at least that the queen thought they were indoctrinated. I think the signal to the keepers came and went, and sovereign knew he needed to retake the Citadel himself. He needed a fleet to provide cover, and potentially an operative on the inside to open/close the arms. The Rachni were his first choice, but that didn't work out. Knowing the importance of the sneak attack, he bided his time until he found an appropriate replacement (Saren and the Geth). The Reapers operate on a 50,000 year cycle, 2,000 years is not a lot of time for them.

@helloween7

As for the Citadel and Indoctrination, I think there's some reason to think it possible. We learn (through Vigil) that the Citadel is always the seat of government in every cycle. The Council flatly refuses to acknowledge that Sovereign was a Reaper Vanguard rather than a Geth dreadnought. In ME3, weeks of war go by, the Reapers annihalating homeworlds and people on the Citadel are going about their business. Several squadmates (James and Tali, at least) mention that "this place (the Citadel) makes you forget about the war". I wouldn't be surprised if there was some Pacifying Indoctrination style signal given off by the Citadel.

Modifié par Hawk227, 09 mai 2012 - 09:36 .

[Hawk227]

frypan wrote...

Hi all, love this thread and havent had anything to contribute so far, but this post really moved me.

The idea of the reapers as an entity composed of their victims is one ripe with potential and congruent with the assimilation scenes of ME2. The idea that people are being forcibly turned into synthetics serves as a horrid counterpart to the more positive message of growth expressed through synthetic life, such as the geth and EDI who are becoming something like organics.

The reapers, galactic parastites that they are, could have made themselves from the essence of their victims and this would have created, for me, a truly beautiful ending if the catalyst had somehow allowed Shepherd to release them from their suffering as a method of destroying the threat. The idea of all those lifeforms finally being able to tear free of their forced bondage could have been a powerful motif driving the fall of the enemy.

Imagine too the renegade path. Shepherd takes control, following the Illusive Man's philosophy,  siezing all that power for humanity, or himself, rather than releasing it.

While quasi mystical in approach, we have seen references to the beliefs of creatures throughout the series that supports the idea of consciousness surviving life. The power of the mind has been  expressed through biotics and Shepherd himself serves as an example of somebody transcending death. These seem to  set up precedents for the idea that people are somehow trapped inside the form of the reapers, and not just as some sort of goo.

All this fits within the existing structure and I'd say was even contemplated - as evidenced by the copies of the Hyperion Cantos on one of the devs's desks. (can't remember which doco I saw that in) In Hyperion, the fate of humanity under the cruciform was very similar to the suffering in ME, as they were being turned into a form of processing power for the malevolent AI's.

I imagine a scene of the destruction of the reapers, watching them collapse and fall apart -knowing that their downfall also brings an end to the suffering of their victims. For me this would have made the ending very moving and allowed some measure of catharsis even if Shepherd had to die. He would have been releasing countless souls as part of winning the war, rather than averting some future singularity catastrophe.

No need for star child either. The catalyst could simply have been the the blueprint for holding the tormented within their reaper hosts, and thus the key to allowing their release. 

Apologies for the ill formed ideas and poor language. Have been enjoying this thread so much I just had to try and contribute.

EDIT for some of the worst spelling

EDIT  I've often found myself only making one good comment or joke at a party, which I hold onto as validation for the invite. In this case, I feel like a gatecrasher who hopes to be noticed in a good way. Did bring some salty snacks and Tasmanian beer if that helps. 

@frypan

I'm amongst the crowd that didn't want a choice at the end. I just wanted to see my 100hrs worth of decisions play out for better or worse.

That said, this is beautiful and (working with CGGirl's contribution) would have been a terrific way to incorporate something approximating the choices we got in game. The idea of a rogue VI, enslaving the minds of billions, and having the opportunity to release them or coopt them would have been a powerful ending.

[edisnooM]

helloween7 wrote...

KitaSaturnyne wrote...
The "sour yellow note" refers to the Protheans forcing the Rachni to do their bidding as proxy soldiers.

The "oily shadows" remark is misinterpreted, especially in terms of Indoctrination Theory. The remark refers to the anger and violence permeating the Rachni Wars, and don't have anything to do with Shepard's dreams or indoctrination.

I still haven't gotten to Noveria in my current playthrough (and it'll be a while before I encounter the Rachni emissary on Illium in Mass Effect 2) so I might be misremembering, but I got the distinct impression that some external forces were at play during the Rachni Wars (and that's a very, very long time after the Protheans went out of the picture, at any rate).  

Edit: Beat by 7 minutes, thats what I get for not refreshing before posting.

Also if you spare the Queen then on Illium the Asari messenger makes a strong indication that it was the Reapers that pushed the Rachni into war. And I thought there were similar insinuations when you met the Queen again in ME3.

Modifié par edisnooM, 09 mai 2012 - 09:26 .

[KitaSaturnyne]

I believe I was hasty in interpreting the "sour yellow note" line. My apologies.

"A tone from space hushed one voice after another. It forced the singers to resonate with its own sour yellow note"

This certainly points to the Rachni being forced to serve another being. The Rachni Queen we meet was an unborn egg during the Rachni Wars, which tells us that this coercion into servitude happened during the period surrounding the that particular war.

Perhaps the Citadel races also saw potential proxy soldiers and the Rachni rebelled, having already been used by the Protheans? Then again, given the toxicity of the Rachni homeworld, it's more probably the Citadel races would have passed them by. The Rachni, having been influenced by the Protheans to become more war-like, may have reacted like the Citadel races were invading their territory and attacked. The main problem with these is that they're speculation (Damn you, Mac Walters!) since we don't know what exactly occurred during first contact with the Rachni, nor what exactly started the Rachni Wars.

Maybe they're meant more to paralell the Geth and the Morning War, narratively?

There is still no indication of Reaper interference, nor is there any reason to believe Sovereign came along, indoctrinated everybody, then peaced out.

[Hawk227]

KitaSaturnyne wrote...

helloween7 wrote...

That doesn't explain the "sour yellow note" nor the "oily shadows", though.

The "sour yellow note" refers to the Protheans forcing the Rachni to do their bidding as proxy soldiers.

The "oily shadows" remark is misinterpreted, especially in terms of Indoctrination Theory. The remark refers to the anger and violence permeating the Rachni Wars, and don't have anything to do with Shepard's dreams or indoctrination.

Both the "sour yellow note" and "the oily shadows" are mentioned in the context of the Rachni War, which took place 48,000 years after the Protheans were obliterated by the Reapers. The "oily shadows" comment is ambiquous. The queen says that all she heard was "songs the color of oily shadows". If that was all the info we got, then yeah it could just be about anger and violence permeating the Rachni Wars. Add in the Asari on Illium and we learn that she thinks the Rachni were forced into war. "Something soured the voices of her people.... which is something like mind control". In that context the "oily shadows" takes on an aura of indoctrination.

EDIT: Just saw your post about the sour yellow note and the Rachni War. Watch the Asari on Illium clip from above. Doesn't say explicitly that it was Reapers, but pretty much.

Modifié par Hawk227, 09 mai 2012 - 09:33 .

[KitaSaturnyne]

Hawk227 wrote...

As for the Rachni, the Asari you meet on illium if you freed the queen makes it pretty clear they were indoctrinated. Or at least that the queen thought they were indoctrinated. I think the signal to the keepers came and went, and sovereign knew he needed to retake the Citadel himself. He needed a fleet to provide cover, and potentially an operative on the inside to open/close the arms. The Rachni were his first choice, but that didn't work out. Knowing the importance of the sneak attack, he bided his time until he found an appropriate replacement (Saren and the Geth). The Reapers operate on a 50,000 year cycle, 2,000 years is not a lot of time for them.

The Rachni were isolated in that their relay was turned off until just before the Citadel races made first contact. Why would Sovereign choose the Rachni, who weren't part of the galactic community before (or after) the Rachni Wars? Why not someone (or some people) who was part of the galactic community, and actually working on the Citadel?

[edisnooM]

KitaSaturnyne wrote...

Hawk227 wrote...

As for the Rachni, the Asari you meet on illium if you freed the queen makes it pretty clear they were indoctrinated. Or at least that the queen thought they were indoctrinated. I think the signal to the keepers came and went, and sovereign knew he needed to retake the Citadel himself. He needed a fleet to provide cover, and potentially an operative on the inside to open/close the arms. The Rachni were his first choice, but that didn't work out. Knowing the importance of the sneak attack, he bided his time until he found an appropriate replacement (Saren and the Geth). The Reapers operate on a 50,000 year cycle, 2,000 years is not a lot of time for them.

The Rachni were isolated in that their relay was turned off until just before the Citadel races made first contact. Why would Sovereign choose the Rachni, who weren't part of the galactic community before (or after) the Rachni Wars? Why not someone (or some people) who was part of the galactic community, and actually working on the Citadel?

Possibly for the same reason the Catalyst didn't help Sovereign, and Sovereign didn't alert the Reapers in dark space (I mean he could've flown there himself in what, a decade?). I'm beginning to think it probably isn't a good idea to look too closely at Mass Effect, down that path lies madness.

Modifié par edisnooM, 09 mai 2012 - 09:42 .

[TheMarshal]

KitaSaturnyne wrote...

The Rachni were isolated in that their relay was turned off until just before the Citadel races made first contact. Why would Sovereign choose the Rachni, who weren't part of the galactic community before (or after) the Rachni Wars? Why not someone (or some people) who was part of the galactic community, and actually working on the Citadel?

I imagine it has to do with the hive-mind factor which made them particularly succeptible to indoctrination.  Same reason the geth were so easy to coerce.  With an individualistic race, you'd have to indoctrinate them one at a time.  Granted it's not like an indoctrination factory, where you only can work on warping one mind before moving onto the next, but you've gotta imagine that a hive-mind would make indoctrination take hold much more quickly.

[Hawk227]

KitaSaturnyne wrote...

Hawk227 wrote...

As for the Rachni, the Asari you meet on illium if you freed the queen makes it pretty clear they were indoctrinated. Or at least that the queen thought they were indoctrinated. I think the signal to the keepers came and went, and sovereign knew he needed to retake the Citadel himself. He needed a fleet to provide cover, and potentially an operative on the inside to open/close the arms. The Rachni were his first choice, but that didn't work out. Knowing the importance of the sneak attack, he bided his time until he found an appropriate replacement (Saren and the Geth). The Reapers operate on a 50,000 year cycle, 2,000 years is not a lot of time for them.

The Rachni were isolated in that their relay was turned off until just before the Citadel races made first contact. Why would Sovereign choose the Rachni, who weren't part of the galactic community before (or after) the Rachni Wars? Why not someone (or some people) who was part of the galactic community, and actually working on the Citadel?

Because they were not part of the galactic community (Note: Neither were the Geth) and had no stake in it? More importantly, the Rachni have a sort of hivemind and as such are susceptible to mass indoctrination, they work extremely well in cooperation and are fierce warriors (hence needing the Krogan to fend them off). Sovereign didn't just need an inside man, he needed a formidable fleet to provide cover against the Citadel Fleet. We can certainly debate the why, but I think ME2 makes it pretty clear that Sovereign (presumably him/it anyway) did just this.

EDIT: beat by less than a minute

Modifié par Hawk227, 09 mai 2012 - 09:44 .

[KitaSaturnyne]

edisnooM wrote...

Possibly for the same reason the Catalyst didn't help Sovereign, and Sovereign didn't alert the Reapers in dark space (I mean he could've flown there himself in what, a decade?). I'm beginning to think it probably isn't a good idea to look too closely at Mass Effect, down that path lies madness.

Hah, you're right. I'm willing to see it as more of a plothole than anything else. So far, I've got this in my little Rachni timeline

More than 50 000 years ago: The Rachni were enslaved by the Protheans, their mentality changed to become cunning warriors.

50 000 years ago: The Prothean extinction begins.

Little less than 50 000 years ago: The Protheans are gone. The Rachni, despite having been uplifted, are apparently considered too young to exterminate as well. It's possible it sets the precedence for Rachni survivability, where one egg is left overlooked by Reaper forces, but it's speculative (dammit) at best.

2 200 years ago (rounding up): The Citadel races switch on the mass relay that leads to the Rachni home planet. Hilarity ensues.

Mass Effect 1: We meet the last surviving Queen and have the chance to kill her or set her free so the Rachni can live again.

I guess what we really need is more information regarding the events that led to the Rachni War, especially from the perspective of the Rachni. There's just not enough information to go either way.

[Hawk227]

KitaSaturnyne wrote...

I guess what we really need is more information regarding the events that led to the Rachni War, especially from the perspective of the Rachni. There's just not enough information to go either way.

"A tone from space hushed one voice after another. It forced the singers to resonate with its own sour yellow note."

"That the first Rachni war was a mistake. Something soured the voices of her people. In Rachni Psychology, that would be like mind control, I think... it doesn't really translate. Anyway, she believes you are fighting the ones who did that.... She was certain her ancestors were forced into war against their will.

Modifié par Hawk227, 09 mai 2012 - 10:04 .

[KitaSaturnyne]

TheMarshal wrote...

I imagine it has to do with the hive-mind factor which made them particularly succeptible to indoctrination.  Same reason the geth were so easy to coerce.  With an individualistic race, you'd have to indoctrinate them one at a time.  Granted it's not like an indoctrination factory, where you only can work on warping one mind before moving onto the next, but you've gotta imagine that a hive-mind would make indoctrination take hold much more quickly.

That's true, I'd forgotten about the hive mind aspect of the Rachni. It still doesn't make sense to choose them to attack the Citadel though. Choosing and indoctrinating a high level Citadel worker would be a lot easier to execute, and would allow Sovereign to remain a lot more inconspicuous.

Once it has its little inside guy ready to close the ward arms, Sovereign would have but to rush the Citadel, catching its patrolling fleets with their pants down, and thereby not encountering even half the resistance it did at the end of ME1. It wouldn't need an entire fleet to cover its flanks.

[delta_vee]

Hawk227 wrote...

The significance of the Citadel wasn't that it was a door back into the Milky Way, but a hugely important tactical tool to "cut the head off the snake", if you will. The Citadel is always the seat of government, and by returning directly there, the Reapers can effectively end any organized resistance before the rest of the Galaxy knows what happened. By the time of Sovereign's attack at the end of ME1 Shepard and Saren were the only ones that even acknowledged the Reapers were real, the trap was still set. When that failed, the sneak attack was lost and they had to do it the old fashioned way, but we see in ME3 (where the Reapers lose quite a few ships) that the old fashioned way against an organized opposition is not as effective. So the backdoor through the Citadel was worth waiting for.

You see, I read it as having exactly the opposite priorities. I got the distinct impression the Citadel was primarily there for transport into and out of dark space and controlling the relay network, with the tendency for organics to use the Citadel as a seat of government (with the attendant concentration of leadership and  a useful secondary benefit. Likewise, the value of a sneak attack seems to fall into the "nice, but not strictly necessary" category, seeing as how the Reapers in ME3 don't hit the Citadel right away.

KitaSaturnyne wrote...

Hawk227 wrote...

As for the Rachni, the Asari you meet on illium if you freed the queen makes it pretty clear they were indoctrinated. Or at least that the queen thought they were indoctrinated. I think the signal to the keepers came and went, and sovereign knew he needed to retake the Citadel himself. He needed a fleet to provide cover, and potentially an operative on the inside to open/close the arms. The Rachni were his first choice, but that didn't work out. Knowing the importance of the sneak attack, he bided his time until he found an appropriate replacement (Saren and the Geth). The Reapers operate on a 50,000 year cycle, 2,000 years is not a lot of time for them.

The Rachni were isolated in that their relay was turned off until just before the Citadel races made first contact. Why would Sovereign choose the Rachni, who weren't part of the galactic community before (or after) the Rachni Wars? Why not someone (or some people) who was part of the galactic community, and actually working on the Citadel?

 
Agreed. Plus, the Rachni Wars seemed to be more about straight-up territory and conquest, not the kind of skulduggery Sovereign used Saren and the geth for.