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[edisnooM]

Hawk227 wrote...

Seijin8 wrote...

Regarding Reaper war strategies, I think a cursory explanation (riddled with holes, but possibly workable) would be that Plan A was to incite perpetual wars and distrust to weaken the Citadel races, then seize the Citadel, shut down the relay network, and commence mop-up operations, striking faster than non-Reaper FTL news could travel....

After the long conversation today about the Rachni, I spent some time trying to figure how a Reaper instigated Rachni War fit into the history. So the following is my guess, and ties in with your quote above:

The Reapers, for all their power are not invincible. Their true advantage lies in their cunning and ruthless tactics. In a normal cycle, they take the Citadel first, destroy the seat of government and cut off all systems from eachother. Within hours of the initial attack, the galaxy is at their mercy. They then spend the next however many years mopping up, cleansing the galaxy system by system.

So how do the Rachni fit in? Perhaps the Reapers also prefer to soften up the opposition by inciting wars that drain resources, allowing the Reapers to come through with the opposition reeling. Perhaps Sovereign indoctrinated the Rachni and forced them into war (The convo with the Asari on Illium pretty much says he did), knowing that the Citadel relay would soon open to Dark space. Except the relay never opened, the Salarians uplifted the Krogan, who defeated the Rachni and Sovereign was left to figure out what went wrong and forge a new plan. The Citadel trap was still set but he needed a proxy to spring it. Considering the advantage it endows the Reapers, it was worth waiting centuries until the pieces were perfectly in place. Enter the Geth and Saren. Saren could open/close the citadel arms himself, but to actually take and hold the Citadel he needed an army and he needed a way of getting them inside. The Conduit was the key, not because it allowed Saren inside (he could do that anyway) but because it allowed the Geth inside.

Shepard ultimately thwarts this plan, and the Reapers turn to plan B: The Alpha Relay, on the edge of Dark Space provides access to every single Relay in the Galaxy. With it the Reapers can attack anywhere and everywhere in one fell swoop, but Shepard thwarts that plan as well. They are left with only one choice, fly in through FTL to the Batarian systems, picking up ground troops in the process and moving on to Earth, Palaven, etc. and engaging in a war they wished to avoid. One that wasn't won in the initial blow.

I always wondered though, Saren already had underlings on the Citadel, and surely as a Spectre he could have found some way to smuggle in Geth (i.e. like on Noveria) or bring in more Krogan. Not to mention that Benezia could probably have easily sneaked in some Asari commandos. So why the elaborate plan to sneak into the Presidium?

Also the Conduit in the Presidium wasn't exactly subtle when it was active, so how did they manage to sneak from there to Citadel control?

Argh, why can't I stop thinking of things to pick at.

Modifié par edisnooM, 10 mai 2012 - 05:39 .

[TheMarshal]

edisnooM wrote...

I always wondered though, Saren already had underlings on the Citadel, and surely as a Spectre he could have found some way to smuggle in Geth (i.e. like on Noveria) or bring in more Krogan. Not to mention that Benezia could probably have easily sneaked in some Asari commandos. So why the elaborate plan to sneak into the Presidium?

Also the Conduit in the Presidium wasn't exactly subtle when it was active, so how did they manage to sneak from there to Citadel control?

Argh, why can't I stop thinking of things to pick at.

He's a wanted man (turian?).  I mean, sure there are security gaps in C-Sec, but the controls to activate the Citadel were on the platform leading to the Council's chambers.  Not exactly something you can cardboard-box-sneak into, Solid Snake-style.

[edisnooM]

TheMarshal wrote...

edisnooM wrote...

I always wondered though, Saren already had underlings on the Citadel, and surely as a Spectre he could have found some way to smuggle in Geth (i.e. like on Noveria) or bring in more Krogan. Not to mention that Benezia could probably have easily sneaked in some Asari commandos. So why the elaborate plan to sneak into the Presidium?

Also the Conduit in the Presidium wasn't exactly subtle when it was active, so how did they manage to sneak from there to Citadel control?

Argh, why can't I stop thinking of things to pick at.

He's a wanted man (turian?).  I mean, sure there are security gaps in C-Sec, but the controls to activate the Citadel were on the platform leading to the Council's chambers.  Not exactly something you can cardboard-box-sneak into, Solid Snake-style.

No I mean before he was wanted. If he went to Eden Prime to find the Conduit to sneak into the Citadel it seems completely overexcessive.

Edit: Saren and the Geth in the MGS cardboard boxes. Awesome.

CSEC Guy: "Hmm, Just a box."

Modifié par edisnooM, 10 mai 2012 - 05:45 .

[Hawk227]

edisnooM wrote...

I always wondered though, Saren already had underlings on the Citadel, and surely as a Spectre he could have found some way to smuggle in Geth (i.e. like on Noveria) or bring in more Krogan. Not to mention that Benezia could probably have easily sneaked in some Asari commandos. So why the elaborate plan to sneak into the Presidium?

Also the Conduit in the Presidium wasn't exactly subtle when it was active, so how did they manage to sneak from there to Citadel control?

Argh, why can't I stop thinking of things to pick at.

Once they were through they didn't have to sneak. They had an army of Geth on the presidium. That was both the hard and important part. The Army was there to take on C-Sec or any other opposition Saren faced. Not to mention that the conduit was 100 yards at most from the elevator to the Citadel Tower.

As for why Geth instead of indoctrinated commandos? I don't know. I'd say artistic license. Something to drive the plot the rest of the way. To allow for the necessity of the conduit and provide a conflict to motivate Shepard across the Galaxy. We needed an excuse to follow Saren to Therum, Feros, Noveria, Virmire, and Ilos. I'm more than willing to allow them that contrivance. It serves a function and can be explained in game without two much mental gymnastics.

But if you're looking for something to pick at.... The conduit is inside the Presidium. That means that to transport through it we were transported across the hull of Citadel. We passed through the Hull like X-rays through skin and popped out the other side.

Modifié par Hawk227, 10 mai 2012 - 05:49 .

[Seijin8]

@Hawk227: Agreed on all points. Of all the narrative inconsistencies unearthed in the ME series, I don't think the fundamentals of the Reaper invasion are among them. One thing we have seen the Reapers are adept at is adapting to changing situations. Their very creation of Banshees, Ravagers, Cannibals, etc. confirms this. They are quick to utilize what they have at hand, and Javik makes it a point to say that this process only continues to get worse.

@edisnooM: Following the above point, innovation doesn't equate to efficient use of resources. Sovereign may not grasp the most effective ways to use his pawns. He also may not take their advice on utilization seriously, even when it is intelligent. We really don't know anything about Reaper intelligence. Do they arrive at decisions rapidly? Doesn't seem to be the case. Do they act quickly once a decision is made? Definitely. It may also be that Reapers prefer the subtle approach, even to their detriment. From our perspective, they may not leverage their military strength as well as they could.

The Reapers may simply know that they can't be stopped, and seem sloppy in their methods because failure carries little lasting consequence for their endeavors.

[Seijin8]

Hawk227 wrote...

But if you're looking for something to pick at.... The conduit is inside the Presidium. That means that to transport through it we were transported across the hull of Citadel. We passed through the Hull like X-rays through skin and popped out the other side.

This may be a special property of the Citadel, or the Prothean's relay, or a known (but uncommented/underutilized) aspect of Mass Effect physics.  Perhaps the Protheans knew of this trick, but the Citadel races have yet to discover it. 

With discussions like these we have to accept that even with the wealth of data we have available through the codex, it is not nearly enough.

[edisnooM]

Hawk227 wrote...

edisnooM wrote...

I always wondered though, Saren already had underlings on the Citadel, and surely as a Spectre he could have found some way to smuggle in Geth (i.e. like on Noveria) or bring in more Krogan. Not to mention that Benezia could probably have easily sneaked in some Asari commandos. So why the elaborate plan to sneak into the Presidium?

Also the Conduit in the Presidium wasn't exactly subtle when it was active, so how did they manage to sneak from there to Citadel control?

Argh, why can't I stop thinking of things to pick at.

Once they were through they didn't have to sneak. They had an army of Geth on the presidium. That was both the hard and important part. The Army was there to take on C-Sec or any other opposition Saren faced. Not to mention that the conduit was 100 yards at most from the elevator to the Citadel Tower.

As for why Geth instead of indoctrinated commandos? I don't know. I'd say artistic license. Something to drive the plot the rest of the way. To allow for the necessity of the conduit and provide a conflict to motivate Shepard across the Galaxy. We needed an excuse to follow Saren to Therum, Feros, Noveria, Virmire, and Ilos. I'm more than willing to allow them that contrivance. It serves a function and can be explained in game without two much mental gymnastics.

But if you're looking for something to pick at.... The conduit is inside the Presidium. That means that to transport through it we were transported across the hull of Citadel. We passed through the Hull like X-rays through skin and popped out the other side.

But that means the Conduit implies, what, a wormhole, teleportation, sub-space?

Edit: I just remembered there are safety systems to prevent plotting a course that collides with a planet etc. And the Cerberus network detailed what happens when a ship collides at FTL speeds.

Modifié par edisnooM, 10 mai 2012 - 05:58 .

[Seijin8]

edisnooM wrote...

But that means the Conduit implies, what, a wormhole, teleportation, sub-space?

Edit: I just remembered there are safety systems to prevent plotting a course that collides with a planet etc. And the Cerberus network detailed what happens when a ship collides at FTL speeds.

Without consulting the codex or wiki for details, properties of mass interactions at FTL speeds doesn't mesh with physics as we understand them.  The answer must simply be "whatever the story needed", and nothing prevents the game designers from simply naming it "edisnooM Phenomenon triggered by the ME particle and eezo interaction".

EDIT:  Also known as "The Star Trek explanation for damn near everything."  Just create the particle physics you need.

EDIT2:  Retconned quote

Modifié par Seijin8, 10 mai 2012 - 06:00 .

[edisnooM]

Seijin8 wrote...

edisnooM wrote...

Thats actually something I've never considered, how does FTL in the Mass Effect universe handle encountering solid objects while at speed. Everything I understood was that it just lowered mass thereby allowing ships to exceed the speed of light, but the Conduit implies, what, a wormhole, teleportation, sub-space?

Without consulting the codex or wiki for details, properties of mass interactions at FTL speeds doesn't mesh with physics as we understand them.  The answer must simply be "whatever the story needed", and nothing prevents the game designers from simply naming it "edisnooM Phenomenon triggered by the ME particle and eezo interaction".

EDIT:  Also known as "The Star Trek explanation for damn near everything."  Just create the particle physics you need.

"Captain, if we used a modified Acme Tachyon Pulse, it could fix all the illogical inconsistencies." 

[Seijin8]

edisnooM wrote...

"Captain, if we used a modified Acme Tachyon Pulse, it could fix all the illogical inconsistencies." 

Make it so

[edisnooM]

I should also state I realize that for purposes of the story certain things are done to improve the narrative, the action, etc. And I still like the Mass Effect series, its just that I'm looking back and seeing things that don't quite add up.
All thanks to BioWare messing with my suspension of disbelief. <_<

Modifié par edisnooM, 10 mai 2012 - 06:08 .

[Seijin8]

Fair enough. As CulturalGeekGirl mentioned, its the breaking of the narrative immersion that causes us to start scratching away at the details. I have dabbled in speculative scifi writing, and found that no matter how I go about it, I have to find answers that don't exist.

This basically leads to two approaches. Star Trek creates a new particle as needed (tetryon, polaron, etc) to produce the effect. Mass Effect goes the opposite (more elegant) route by saying "it all comes from element zero, which we don't fully understand". Personally, I prefer ME's approach, though it does require an outside force to have provided this unknowable knowledge.

EDIT:  Okay, third is the "Highlander option" where all concerned parties understand the methodology/science/magic implicitly.  This works for short-duration narratives with decisive conclusions, but implodes once you have to bend the rules.

Modifié par Seijin8, 10 mai 2012 - 06:13 .

[edisnooM]

Seijin8 wrote...

Fair enough. As CulturalGeekGirl mentioned, its the breaking of the narrative immersion that causes us to start scratching away at the details. I have dabbled in speculative scifi writing, and found that no matter how I go about it, I have to find answers that don't exist.

This basically leads to two approaches. Star Trek creates a new particle as needed (tetryon, polaron, etc) to produce the effect. Mass Effect goes the opposite (more elegant) route by saying "it all comes from element zero, which we don't fully understand". Personally, I prefer ME's approach, though it does require an outside force to have provided this unknowable knowledge.

EDIT:  Okay, third is the "Highlander option" where all concerned parties understand the methodology/science/magic implicitly.  This works for short-duration narratives with decisive conclusions, but implodes once you have to bend the rules.

 

I guess thats true. I'll try and stop myself before I get to the point where I'm saying "Hang on, Element Zero doesn't even exist."

And I have felt for the most part that the Mass Effect universe was pretty solid with all the codex entries and explanations, even if it was pseudo-science, and probably physicists, biologists etc. were screaming "No! No! That doesn't work!", I accepted it and continued chatting with the blue mono-gendered alien.

It's just when they start doing things without really any explanation at all that I go "Wha...?"

Edited with your updated post.

Modifié par edisnooM, 10 mai 2012 - 06:16 .

[MrFob]

edisnooM wrote...

Seijin8 wrote...

edisnooM wrote...

Thats actually something I've never considered, how does FTL in the Mass Effect universe handle encountering solid objects while at speed. Everything I understood was that it just lowered mass thereby allowing ships to exceed the speed of light, but the Conduit implies, what, a wormhole, teleportation, sub-space?

Without consulting the codex or wiki for details, properties of mass interactions at FTL speeds doesn't mesh with physics as we understand them.  The answer must simply be "whatever the story needed", and nothing prevents the game designers from simply naming it "edisnooM Phenomenon triggered by the ME particle and eezo interaction".

EDIT:  Also known as "The Star Trek explanation for damn near everything."  Just create the particle physics you need.

"Captain, if we used a modified Acme Tachyon Pulse, it could fix all the illogical inconsistencies." 

I think you are mistaken, that would be an inverted Acme Tachyon Pulse?

As for solid object and ME FTL, as far as I understand, the FTL drive erects an ME field around the ship that alters the mass of everything within it and thus also altering the speed of light within this bubble. The ship itself then accelerates not to light speed (or anywhere near for that matter) within it's own frame of reference within the ME field but faster then light moves outside the field (hence the blue shift). So, the mass of every particle that enters the field would be changed as well to a degree where kinetic barriers can handle it. If you would fly into a large object like a planet, the ME field would not be big enough to envelop the whole object and you crash.
The general underlying physics of this of course is utter hokum but I always find it surprising how consistent the "ME physics" are internally. Certainly good enough to keep up the suspension of disbelief. That is right up to the point where a green explosion rewrites DNA in machines of course. 

EDIT: As for the beam, I always thought it would be similar to the conduit. Like a mini mass rely that transports people instead of ships. It's true, we usually don't see a beam of light between relays but who knows what fancy tricks the reapers use here. If you look at where the beam hits the clouds you can also see a clear atmospheric distortion effect that might be consistent with a mass free corridor.

Modifié par MrFob, 10 mai 2012 - 06:35 .

[Hawk227]

edisnooM wrote...

But that means the Conduit implies, what, a wormhole, teleportation, sub-space?

Edit: I just remembered there are safety systems to prevent plotting a course that collides with a planet etc. And the Cerberus network detailed what happens when a ship collides at FTL speeds.

Exactly. I've not memorized the codex, but I'm fairly confident that relay travel was specifically not supposed to be wormhole or teleportation. I'm willing to give a lot of leeway in the guise of creative license, but when the start violating their own rules (or themes, in the case of the ending) I get a little miffed. You can handwave all you want, just be faithful to what you already handwaved.

PS: I just want to say, I haven't laughed as much on this site as I have in the last week since you, Seijin8, TheMarshall, and one or two others started posting frequently. Thanks

[edisnooM]

Hawk227 wrote...

edisnooM wrote...

But that means the Conduit implies, what, a wormhole, teleportation, sub-space?

Edit: I just remembered there are safety systems to prevent plotting a course that collides with a planet etc. And the Cerberus network detailed what happens when a ship collides at FTL speeds.

Exactly. I've not memorized the codex, but I'm fairly confident that relay travel was specifically not supposed to be wormhole or teleportation. I'm willing to give a lot of leeway in the guise of creative license, but when the start violating their own rules (or themes, in the case of the ending) I get a little miffed. You can handwave all you want, just be faithful to what you already handwaved.

PS: I just want to say, I haven't laughed as much on this site as I have in the last week since you, Seijin8, TheMarshall, and one or two others started posting frequently. Thanks

Happy to help. Humor helps lessen the pain. 

[Seijin8]

edisnooM wrote...

Happy to help. Humor helps lessen the pain. 

This.

[Seijin8]

MrFob wrote...

Certainly good enough to keep up the suspension of disbelief. That is right up to the point where a green explosion rewrites DNA in machines of course. 

Because I am bored, I will take a stab at this:

What if... eezo is not a true element, but instead a carrier particle (or composed of carrier particles instead of hadrons, etc), whose traits are dictated or modified by some (super-powerful) source?  Trace elements of eezo in any organic could allow for mass effect fields to reorder structures (such as DNA) at the behest of this source.

What if the Citadel's uber-secretive core is that force?  What if the true role of the Catalyst is less about controlling the Reapers and more like making sure their technology works as it is supposed to?  The Catalyst might be able to modify the properties of eezo (and mass effect fields) directly, and propagate such changes via the mass relays.  We know mass effect fields can modify basic properties of matter and energy and we do not know the extent to which it can do this.

(For the record, I am not endorsing this as "how it works", just saying there is enough ambiguity to allow for half-sci explanations that make at least a little more sense.)

[mjh417]

Its been over two months and I have still yet to begin a second play through. By this time after ME2's launch I had beaten it no less than 3 times.

I refuse to support an ending and a game thats final message is in favor of FASCISM. Its that classic fascist sadomasochistic crap of a "god," or "god in the machine" rather, telling the people or "the organics", that you were all made sick but yet now are commanded to be well, or else risk horrific punishment for being the sick things we were made to be instead of being the well we are being cruelly commanded to be.

If there was one thing no Shep ever stood for, it was fascism. The ending is a betrayal.

[MrFob]

Seijin8 wrote...

MrFob wrote...

Certainly good enough to keep up the suspension of disbelief. That is right up to the point where a green explosion rewrites DNA in machines of course. 

Because I am bored, I will take a stab at this:

What if... eezo is not a true element, but instead a carrier particle (or composed of carrier particles instead of hadrons, etc), whose traits are dictated or modified by some (super-powerful) source?  Trace elements of eezo in any organic could allow for mass effect fields to reorder structures (such as DNA) at the behest of this source.

What if the Citadel's uber-secretive core is that force?  What if the true role of the Catalyst is less about controlling the Reapers and more like making sure their technology works as it is supposed to?  The Catalyst might be able to modify the properties of eezo (and mass effect fields) directly, and propagate such changes via the mass relays.  We know mass effect fields can modify basic properties of matter and energy and we do not know the extent to which it can do this.

(For the record, I am not endorsing this as "how it works", just saying there is enough ambiguity to allow for half-sci explanations that make at least a little more sense.)

It's a fascinating theory but I think if that were true it would have some far reaching implications. First of all, you would have to be able to recreate matter on a massive scale in order to somehow merge DNA with the molecular structure of machines. Manipulation on that scale would make everything possible, right? Replicators as we know them from Star Trek? No problem. Transporters? Easy peasy. Resetting the universe to an almost big bang state? Well, not beyond reach.
Of course, we wouldn't know the amount of energy required to do this but given that the crucible was ultimately built by the alliance and allies, it must be manageable somehow.
Also, you would need these trace amounts of eezo literally everywhere. We know that trace amounts of eezo in human nervous systems cause fatalities or biotic abilities so it would have to be a trace of a trace that is somehow not detectable and can be found ubiquitously.
Well, I'd say it's still better than space magic but it needs adjustments to the facts we encountered before that still makes the aforementioned suspension of disbelief difficult. At least for me. :innocent:

EDI: I should probably apologize for derailing a discussion that was more about narrative issues towards technical details. However,that's what being a bored nerd will do to you ... I should probably get back to work now.

Modifié par MrFob, 10 mai 2012 - 07:05 .

[Cyruge]

ShepnTali wrote...

He's an entitled whiner who doesn't get it.

Lol good one.

[Hawk227]

MrFob wrote...

EDI: I should probably apologize for derailing a discussion that was more about narrative issues towards technical details. However,that's what being a bored nerd will do to you ... I should probably get back to work now.

Don't apologize. We spent yesterday afternoon (in North America)  talking about the technical details of how the Rachni War fit within the history of the Mass Effect Universe and whether they were indocrinated, and if so what was the point.

[Hawk227]

Seijin8 wrote...

Because I am bored, I will take a stab at this:

What if... eezo is not a true element, but instead a carrier particle (or composed of carrier particles instead of hadrons, etc), whose traits are dictated or modified by some (super-powerful) source?  Trace elements of eezo in any organic could allow for mass effect fields to reorder structures (such as DNA) at the behest of this source.

To what end?

DNA and it's functionality is highly specific. Humans and Mice share about 85% of their DNA (as in actual nucleotides) in common. Minute differences make tremendous differences. There are a number of serious diseases (like Creutzfeldt-Jakob, Sickle Cell, and Huntington's) that are the result of a mutation of a single nucleotide pair (out of hundreds or thousands in that gene).

Not to mention DNA encodes for organic molecules that serve their own functions, the Cell can not just take an altered DNA and start making microchips and transistors.

Also, eezo is not a true element (even hypothetically). It has no protons, to be an element you must have protons. Though that is largely nitpicking. There is a thing called Neutronium, that is just high density mass of neutrons (like eezo) and the scientist that proposed its existence 90 years ago called it...... Element Zero. No kidding.

[Seijin8]

MrFob wrote...

Well, I'd say it's still better than space magic but it needs adjustments to the facts we encountered before that still makes the aforementioned suspension of disbelief difficult. At least for me.

Fair enough. Its just funny to me that "dark energy" gets passed around as a legit science term (which it is), but "space magic" is silly hokum. Dark energy is an unknown motive force that has (probably) one observable effect, but is otherwise unknown in virtually every way. Pretty much, dark energy *is* space magic.

The destruction of the relays may be seeding the necessary amounts of eezo into everything to enable the desired changes. The concept of synthesis may be as simple (?) as modifying DNA to replicate implants and enabling the nervous system to automatically interface with them, and through those implants, interface with everything else on some basic (empathic?) level.

My whole point is that it *could* be worked into the narrative in a less sketchy way, and for me - as silly as it seems - in a universe as fundamentally silly as ME could sometimes seem, it wasn't *the* breaking moment it was for others. Stupid? Yes. Unnecessary? Definitely. But I was divorced from the narrative prior to that moment, so my reaction to it has been less visceral than others.

And those others' opinions are totally valid, of course. We may not agree on which ingredients ultimately made the ending ... uh... less than ideal, but we can agree it was no good.

There isn't any single part to the ending that broke it. For me, Shepard's grandmastery of debate countering a string of utter insanity with "maybe" was pretty much the death of the narrative. It had been faltering before, but that was *my* moment of final disconnection.

[Hawk227]

Seijin8 wrote...


There isn't any single part to the ending that broke it. For me, Shepard's grandmastery of debate countering a string of utter insanity with "maybe" was pretty much the death of the narrative. It had been faltering before, but that was *my* moment of final disconnection.

I've been trying to think back to when I was divorced from the narrative. It might have been the infamous "maybe", but I think it was the magic elevator. That shot evoked religious undertones and I had a little flashback to the awful ending of Lost.

Alternatively, it might have been the created will always rebel against the creators. I was thinking:

"First, I just united the Geth and Quarians, so you're wrong. Second, you can't condemn an entire race to extinction for something it might do."

It was a line Shep had actually spoken to the Salarian Dalatross, but couldn't muster against the stupid non-catalysty catalyst. The attempt to redeem the absolutely irredeemable was a huge no go for me.

Modifié par Hawk227, 10 mai 2012 - 07:36 .