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"All Were Thematically Revolting". My Lit Professor's take on the Endings. (UPDATED)


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#1851
Kushan101

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Hawk227 wrote...

Seijin8 wrote...

@Hawk227: .... I just wrote 2 wordpad pages creating parallels between levels and themes in ME1 and ME2 to show how interconnected those were. As I revved up my closing argument, I found that many similar parallels could be drawn to some of the missions in ME3. I think the overall weight of "evidence" slews in my favor, but I am no longer as confident in it, and will instead admit that you are probably could possibly be right.


In all fairness, I believe that you could tear the trilogy apart and find a lot of deviations between ME3 and the others. I was mostly just responding on how I felt while playing. Which I think is important. 

As I played, I noticed that the Journal was awful, the Crucible was unearned, that there was a bunch of fetch quests*, the reliance on auto-dialogue, and that N7 missions were few and not very good. I was bummed that so many beloved ME2 squaddies had bit parts, but it was largely justified within the narrative (Jack's new role was a wonderful surprise!). Aside from those complaints, I felt like I was playing a Mass Effect game. I thought ME3 was funnier (EDI is hilarious, Shepard even has a few good zingers here and there), I thought ME3 evoked emotion better than the predecessors (Even besides the deaths. I got chills stepping on Rannoch for the first time). I felt that ME3 had finally figured out the combat mechanics (though ME2 was pretty good). I thought the art design was largely better. Rannoch was gorgeous and the half retro-fitted Normandy felt like a ship taken mid-renovation. I still felt like Shepard and the Normandy were the lone hope for the galaxy. I even liked Vega!

I noticed those previously mentioned weak points and attributed them to EA, and kept on playing in satisfaction all the way up until that stupid magical elevator.

*Was anyone else super dissapointed that rescuing the Elcor on Dekuuna consisted of orbiting the planet, reading its description and going back to the Citadel? I would have gladly traded 3 N7 missions for the chance to race down in envirosuits to ward off ravagers as elcor hobbled onto the normandy. Talking to them in the shuttle bay like Kirrahe after Virmire. Actually, this is what the N7 missions should have been. Quick little rescue missions to different homeworlds, pulling Hanar and Drell off of Kahje, Volus off of Irune, that sort of thing.


Definitely: the rescue missions - as well as all the fetch quests we got fobbed off with - were incredibly lazy. They were incredibly boring on their own, but you combine them with a journal system that doesn't tell you which system to go to, WHEN you can go to it, or if you already have the item you're looking for: and it becomes torturous. I should not be REQUIRED to look up where I have to go on the ME wiki. I really shouldn't.

#1852
KitaSaturnyne

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Hawk227 wrote...

*Was anyone else super dissapointed that rescuing the Elcor on Dekuuna consisted of orbiting the planet, reading its description and going back to the Citadel? I would have gladly traded 3 N7 missions for the chance to race down in envirosuits to ward off ravagers as elcor hobbled onto the normandy. Talking to them in the shuttle bay like Kirrahe after Virmire. Actually, this is what the N7 missions should have been. Quick little rescue missions to different homeworlds, pulling Hanar and Drell off of Kahje, Volus off of Irune, that sort of thing.

I personally would love to have all the instances of "shoot a probe, get something" be turned into full on missions.

#1853
drayfish

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Hawk227 wrote...
*Was anyone else super dissapointed that rescuing the Elcor on Dekuuna consisted of orbiting the planet, reading its description and going back to the Citadel? I would have gladly traded 3 N7 missions for the chance to race down in envirosuits to ward off ravagers as elcor hobbled onto the normandy. Talking to them in the shuttle bay like Kirrahe after Virmire. Actually, this is what the N7 missions should have been. Quick little rescue missions to different homeworlds, pulling Hanar and Drell off of Kahje, Volus off of Irune, that sort of thing.

Yes! Yes, absolutely! I had the exact same experience! The Elcor asked for help and I bolted to the Normandy, thinking we'd finally get to glimpse that high gravity landscape: Elcor shuffling majest-awkwardly toward rescue. I would have loved that!  Three games and I never saw one of those guys move.
 

And on the journey back, we'd have some Elcor milling around on the ship, maybe in the cargo bay or Thane's old room:
 
Elcor: 'With-Increasing-Shame-and-Horror: Shepard, the Normandy's bathrooms are not equipped for the Elcor digestive system.'
 
Shepard: '...Uh, okay. Garrus, can you get a hose?'

#1854
edisnooM

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drayfish wrote...

Hawk227 wrote...
*Was anyone else super dissapointed that rescuing the Elcor on Dekuuna consisted of orbiting the planet, reading its description and going back to the Citadel? I would have gladly traded 3 N7 missions for the chance to race down in envirosuits to ward off ravagers as elcor hobbled onto the normandy. Talking to them in the shuttle bay like Kirrahe after Virmire. Actually, this is what the N7 missions should have been. Quick little rescue missions to different homeworlds, pulling Hanar and Drell off of Kahje, Volus off of Irune, that sort of thing.

Yes! Yes, absolutely! I had the exact same experience! The Elcor asked for help and I bolted to the Normandy, thinking we'd finally get to glimpse that high gravity landscape: Elcor shuffling majest-awkwardly toward rescue. I would have loved that!  Three games and I never saw one of those guys move.
 

And on the journey back, we'd have some Elcor milling around on the ship, maybe in the cargo bay or Thane's old room:
 
Elcor: 'With-Increasing-Shame-and-Horror: Shepard, the Normandy's bathrooms are not equipped for the Elcor digestive system.'
 
Shepard: '...Uh, okay. Garrus, can you get a hose?'


Oddly in my game the Elcor ambassador didn't ask for my help until after I'd already scanned Dekuuna, I then had to leave the embassies and come back to turn in the quest.

#1855
RoamerZA

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Hawk227 wrote...

*Was anyone else super dissapointed that rescuing the Elcor on Dekuuna consisted of orbiting the planet, reading its description and going back to the Citadel?


I was disappointed how many of those orbit the planet the missions there were.

The first time I walked around the Citadel, listening in on all of those conversations and gathering quests, I said to myself "This game is  massive", assuming these were all little missions, like when you rescued the Quarian researchers from those wolf type creatures in ME2, only to be disappointed to find out they were simple planet scanning "missions".

#1856
Hawk227

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drayfish wrote...

Yes! Yes, absolutely! I had the exact same experience! The Elcor asked for help and I bolted to the Normandy, thinking we'd finally get to glimpse that high gravity landscape: Elcor shuffling majest-awkwardly toward rescue. I would have loved that!  Three games and I never saw one of those guys move.
 

And on the journey back, we'd have some Elcor milling around on the ship, maybe in the cargo bay or Thane's old room:
 
Elcor: 'With-Increasing-Shame-and-Horror: Shepard, the Normandy's bathrooms are not equipped for the Elcor digestive system.'
 
Shepard: '...Uh, okay. Garrus, can you get a hose?'


Hilarious! Why did we not get this!?

@edinooM

I had the same thing happen, but it didn't occur to me to leave and come back. I headed straight for Dekuuna, fully expecting something like the Gei Hinnom level in ME2 where you rescued the Quarian from the Varren. Only for nothing to happen when I got to Dekuuna. When I returned to the Citadel, the Ambassador said he was grateful for saving his people, and I was confused :huh:

EDIT: Whoops. I see RoamerZA had the exact same thought.

Modifié par Hawk227, 10 mai 2012 - 11:45 .


#1857
frypan

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The Elcor rescue idea brings home another aspect of the game that was required - more images of the Reaper invasion. While the reapers feature in the three most affecting missions (Tuchanka, Rannoch and Thessia) we only realy see the invasion at the start of the game and on Thessia. For myself the sight of those reaper ships descending sent a chill up my spine.

Would have been nice to see a bit more of it during the game. The mini game was simply not enough to hammer home the scale of things.

Imagine that scene mention by Drayfish, but as the Shepherd rushes to speed the rescue and the Elcor slowly lumber aboard, reaper ships descend in the distance. Talk about tension and a feeling of urgency.

#1858
RoamerZA

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Hawk227 wrote...

EDIT: Whoops. I see RoamerZA had the exact same thought.


Great minds think alike ... and you remembered the name of the creatures ;-)

#1859
drayfish

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(Sorry for another long one...)

delta_vee wrote...
 
Setting aside our Could-Have-Been-King and his army of Never-Weres, I have something of a serious question. (Drayfish, RollaWarden, other lurking academics, your professional opinion as well as your personal one would be welcomed.)

When examining a work from a critical perspective, at what point can we fairly penalize said work for its unrealized potential? The audience, of course, is free to do so at any point (and we have, repeatedly), but criticism is generally expected to maintain a level of rigor. The more closely I examine ME3, the more I watch it unravel, but so much of that is believing that for every narrative tradeoff made in service of their story, there were better alternatives available.

I don't know if that's truly...fair...of me.

Hoo... That's a biggun' – and I'm going to say right up front: I have nothing to add to the already fruitful discussionings that this thread has undertaken since this question was posed. 

...Except perhaps the word 'discussionings'. I've got that.
 
Ultimately, as always, I think it depends upon the intent of the original narrative: what the text, for the majority of its expanse, presents itself as being, and how it advances its plot in service of this tonal goal throughout. If the text is a hard sci-fi enactment of technical principles played out to their extremes, then it's completely consistent to end with similarly cold rationality. If a text is propelled by character, and what defines those characters and their experience, then as long as it stays true to those elements then it's easier to overlook the logical inconsistencies and remain emotionally engaged.
 
You referenced Bellisario's Maxim (I love that), and although Bellisario chose a rather extreme, dismissive way of putting it, there is a sense in which we as the audience, in an act of good faith, do allow minor contrivances and inconsistencies if it is for the benefit of the overall story. It's something like an act of love: if a narrative is engaging enough you go with it, the emotional investment manifests itself as a suspension of disbelief that compensates to work around the strict logistical framework; you buy back into the premise. On the other hand, if the whole text's logic begins to eat itself, or if the break with character behaviours are wildly inconsistent, then the audience understandably checks out – it's no longer what you fell in love with and the magic fades.
 
In the case of Mass Effect, for me at least, until things move into the pure-Speculative realm in the final minutes the game was always about the wonder of exploration. This was most evident in Mass Effect 1, but it remained at the core of 2 and 3. It celebrated the human spirit to expand, survey, perceive and react. Indeed, the whole thrust of all three games is discussion and exploration: we meet people in strange new landscapes, we surmise their character and their intent, and having read their perspectives, choose to aid, exploit or ignore them. All the shooter mechanics were really just layered on top of that invitation to investigate new planets and peoples, with the oncoming Reaper horde merely the narrative urgency that gave the journey its revelatory progression. 
 
To steal an analogy that's already been made numerous times, I think of it in much the same way as Star Trek.  We laugh at the pseudo-science babble that they rub on any problem in Star Trek to explain away the narrative leaps, the way they blur established logic of their universe (oh, we're doing warp 10 now?), and scratch too hard at one of their many, many (many!) time travel plotlines and the whole thing dissolves into vapour. But the reason that they can do this is because, although the tapestry of that universe has been laid out and added to over the decades, ultimately it's not a story about the tech or the timeline; the tech is just the wrapper on the real treat which is the characters, and their journey into the emotional and intellectual unknown. Trek taps into that same motif of exploration that Mass Effect does, the human quest for comprehension and expansion into new territories: new landscapes of the physical, the psychological, the ideological. 
 
Both universes Trek and Effect are about making manifest social mores – prejudices, psychological fears, emotions, taboos – so that they can be tested against the questioning eyes of our central characters.  Both the Enterprise and Normandy are really just hive minds made up of a family of characters who together confront the inequities and horrors of life – it's just that in Star Trek you see more unconvincing forehead bumpies. 
 
In Trek we may come across a planet of blob monsters, but those blob monsters are oppressing some other slop monsters, so the whole tale is really about the human impulses toward fascism, racism, sexism, etc. Kirk, Spock and McCoy, as three facets of the human psyche – the instinctual, the intellectual and the emotional – all bring their respective judgement upon the events depicted, and together reason out a solution. Yay! Blob monster and slop monster resolve their differences and can live in harmony (and in the middle there, just to speed it all along, there was some kind of tacheon-pulse-generator-whatsit that helped reveal how arbitrary the divisions between blob and slop really are).  

(...By the way, if this episode ever existed it was terrible.)
 
In Mass Effect Shepard is our central agent of exploration and change, confronting the same social and political issues – slavery, domination, eugenics, the price of survival, warrior caste systems, intellectual freedom – and his/her journey is likewise always coloured by the crew and the emotional and intellectual perspective they bring to these events. To use but one example: as many people have said in this thread, often a choice such as curing the Genophage, although 'intellectually' of galactic importance, is coloured by the emotional investment and trust that characters like Mordin and Wrex evoke. They are part of our emotional hive-mind, and we use their insight to aid our decision-making. Similarly, people might not trust Legion, so he colours their view of the Geth and he, and they, are obliterated. (But really? He's so sweeeeeeet...)
 
As 3DandBeyond so wonderfully put it:
 

3DandBeyond wrote...
ME was always all about the individual and overcoming great odds. It was specifically about one larger than life individual that saw more in others than they saw themselves. Shepard believed in doing things, and that they could be done. A paragon Shepard might see the basic gut level decency in people and appeal to that in order to get them to evolve and seek better things, better ways. A renegade might just run right over them to demand they see things his/her way. But what is there all along is the force and will of Shepard and what is created is a coming together of disparate individuals to face adversity.

Shepard creates growth within others and they do somehow put away (not put aside) old grievances and seek to work together.

Lovely.
 
That's probably why the ending – even aside from Reaper-of-the-Corn – is so unsettling and jarring. Even if Shepard is dead, the rest of the Normandy crew are an integral part of that exploratory dynamic – not simply as love interests, or drinking buddies, but as aspects of Shepard's own decision-making and emotional core. To simply strand them on Planet-Random, or to show them fleeing from the soldier that has been the nucleus around which they spin, fundamentally violates that bond upon which the whole exploratory journey is forged. 
 
Once that uniting premise is torn – once the thematic bonds that have fuelled the entire journey have been altered, and the family through which these themes were interrogated is irreparably ruptured – then gaping holes in the plot open up for inspection that risk exposing the tale as wanting. 
 
 
p.s. - I've always thought that there was ample room to break down the tripartite division of Star Trek through the division of the 'Just Soul' posited by Plato in The Republic. Spock as the Head; Kirk as the Appetite; McCoy as the Spirit. Individually they fail, together they regulate their emotions and find innovative new ways to confront the universe and evolve. 
 
Indeed, there are plenty of Greek and Roman references to pad out such a study: Vulcans are just Roman Stoics with pointy ears; Klingons are Spartans. For the real Trek nerds out there: that's why Romulus and Remus are named after the brothers who founded Rome. Did I just blow your mind? No? Not at all? ...Okay, I'll just go sit quietly over there in the corner then. 

Modifié par drayfish, 11 mai 2012 - 01:30 .


#1860
drayfish

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(Although I should add that much of the commentary I have just offered is entirely redundant, because the truth is, if written and enacted convincingly, an audience can follow almost any manipulation of form. I just saw the Avengers, and looked at with cold structural logic none of that film should work. It's a Frankenstein's monster of at least five different genres (spy/sci-fi/gothic horror/action/Shakespearean-melodrama) impossibly welded together, with several principle characters and almost no plot – and yet it is done with such marvellous grace and wit that you sit staring at the screen enthralled, giggling with childish wonder and glee.)

Modifié par drayfish, 11 mai 2012 - 02:51 .


#1861
KitaSaturnyne

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drayfish wrote...

(Although I should add that much of commentary I have just offered is entirely redundant, because the truth is, if written and enacted convincingly, an audience can follow almost any manipulation of form. I just saw the Avengers, and looked at with cold structural logic none of that film should work. It's a Frankenstein's monster of at least five different genres (spy/sci-fi/gothic horror/action/Shakespearean-melodrama) impossibly welded together, with several principle characters and almost no plot – and yet it is done with such marvellous grace and wit that you sit staring at the screen enthralled, giggling with childish wonder and glee.)

Also... uh, um...

Down with StarKid! Boo! Eff 'im and his whole stinky little... Crucible... Citadel... connection thing. Yeah!

Sorry, that's all I've got for today, but I really wanted to contribute something. I haven't been sleeping well which has been playing havoc with my ability to form a coherent thought above a second grade level. So, uh, yeah. Catalyst sucks.

Modifié par KitaSaturnyne, 11 mai 2012 - 01:54 .


#1862
edisnooM

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drayfish wrote...


(Although I should add that much of commentary I have just offered is entirely redundant, because the truth is, if written and enacted convincingly, an audience can follow almost any manipulation of form. I just saw the Avengers, and looked at with cold structural logic none of that film should work. It's a Frankenstein's monster of at least five different genres (spy/sci-fi/gothic horror/action/Shakespearean-melodrama) impossibly welded together, with several principle characters and almost no plot – and yet it is done with such marvellous grace and wit that you sit staring at the screen enthralled, giggling with childish wonder and glee.)


I wanted to concur about the Avengers, it had absolutely every reason to fail, but it magnificently succeeded in making me believe that these disparate individuals from hard science to ancient myth could actual exist and interact within a single universe. 

Also did you see the explosions? Now those were some explosions. :)

#1863
drayfish

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I love 'splosions!

(And I hope you feel better soon, KitaSaturnyne.)

...'Splosions!

Modifié par drayfish, 11 mai 2012 - 02:30 .


#1864
edisnooM

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In looking over some of the recent posts a thought has sprung to mind. 

Over the course of the series we have seen our Shepard as a catalyst. S/he creates action, change, growth, s/he creates new possibilities that would not have otherwise existed. Without Shepard the Feros colonists would not have been saved. Without Shepard Tali is exiled. Without Shepard peace between the Quarian and the Geth is impossible, the Genophage cannot be cured, and the Council saved.

Throughout the story we are given the role to forge paths for others to follow. That is until the end. I wonder if there might be a poignant point in the name given our final foe the Catalyst. Hereto this point that has been our Shepards role, but now at the end it is plucked from us, given to another who perverts it for his own ends. Now we do not forge the path, instead they are forged for us and we must follow them like it or not.

Modifié par edisnooM, 11 mai 2012 - 02:45 .


#1865
edisnooM

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KitaSaturnyne wrote...

Also... uh, um...

Down with StarKid! Boo! Eff 'im and his whole stinky little... Crucible... Citadel... connection thing. Yeah!

Sorry, that's all I've got for today, but I really wanted to contribute something. I haven't been sleeping well which has been playing havoc with my ability to form a coherent thought above a second grade level. So, uh, yeah. Catalyst sucks.


Ugh, I can sympathize with messed up sleep patterns. Supposedly excersise (30 mins a day) and doing things to take your mind off of trying to get to sleep are supposed to help. Staring at a computer screen long enough will make your eyes tired if thats any help.

#1866
Seijin8

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edisnooM wrote...

In looking over some of the recent posts a thought has sprung to mind. 

Over the course of the series we have seen our Shepard as a catalyst. S/he creates action, change, growth, s/he creates new possibilities that would not have otherwise existed. Without Shepard the Feros colonists would not have been saved. Without Shepard Tali is exiled. Without Shepard peace between the Quarian and the Geth is impossible, the Genophage cannot be cured, and the Council saved.

Throughout the story we are given the role to forge paths for others to follow. That is until the end. I wonder if there might be a poignant point in the name given our final foe the Catalyst. Hereto this point that has been our Shepards role, but now at the end it is plucked from us, given to another who perverts it for his own ends. Now we do not forge the path, instead they are forged for us and we must follow them like it or not.


Very good point!  It is an awful lot like the steering wheel has been taken away from us.

I acknowledge that crafting an ending that didn't have some measure of forced direction was probably beyond any reasonable ability to produce, but the *way* it was done was hurtful.  There surely was another option.

#1867
Seijin8

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@drayfish: Your constant (incessant!) discussionings are a joy to read. Thank you!

@KitaSaturnyne: Its no wonder your brain is cooked, your last few days of posts have been both moving and intelligent. Give that gray matter a break!

#1868
KitaSaturnyne

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Thank you, drayfish and Mani Mani hallucination. I shall take that under advisement.

I do agree with your thoughts. Adding the very limited dialogue wheel seems to serve as an emphasis for the idea that your path-forging days are over.

EDIT: Thank you too, Seijin. I appreciate the compliment, and I will follow that advice. Time to pick up and play some Fortune Street!

Modifié par KitaSaturnyne, 11 mai 2012 - 02:52 .


#1869
edisnooM

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(-: inaM inaM roF 1+

Also someone noted in a thread I saw that the layout of the Catalyst chamber viewed from above is very much like that of a dialogue wheel. Food for thought.

#1870
frypan

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If I can pick up on the classical/trek allusions raised above, does anybody think we had an equivalent to the journey to the Underworld common in epic? A place, as in the Aeneid, where the Universal themes are enunciated to the central character.

I suppose we had that at the end of ME3, which was an entirely inappropriate place for it to be raised. That sort of issue is better made much earlier so it can play out through the rest of the story. I cannot think of anything that serves the role adequately even though we had environments like the Collector ships of ME2, and the derelict reaper that would have been great locations.

The exposition heavy ME1 could be argued to fulfill that role, although it was really about filling in the Universe for the player, and why I could understand the third game being lighter in that regards. (Not saying I wanted less conversation though. I would have loved more conversation addressed to the experience of folks living through a cycle - like the story of the PTSD Asari) It may well be that such a thing as the catalyst is simply misplaced in location.

As an aside, Shepherd strikes me more as one of Statius' characters. While Aeneas was a largely passive receipent of the Roman universal plan, Statius had more Shepherd-like heroes. There was Capaneus, who was so fearsome Zeus struck him down with a ligtning bolt, but had a second one ready in case he survived. Or there was Amphiarus, who did not fall as any normal warrior, but who found the ground open so that he rode his chariot straight before the throne of Hades.

For me, if anybody was going to forge their own path through a tale of death and the hereafter, it was Shepherd. If Starchild wanted to enunicate their universal plan, fine.

He'd need more than one lightning bolt to convince my Shepherd.


EDIT: uugh, my grammer is shocking

EDIT 2: No pun intended...

Modifié par frypan, 11 mai 2012 - 03:18 .


#1871
edisnooM

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frypan wrote...

If I can pick up on the classical/trek allusions raised above, does anybody think we had an equivalent to the journey to the Underworld common in epic? A place, as in the Aeneid, where the Universal themes are enunciated to the central character. 

I suppose we had that at the end of ME3, which was an entirely inappropriate place for it to be raised. That sort of issue is better made much earlier so it can play out through the rest of the story. I cannot think of anything that serves the role adequately even though we had environments like the Collector ships of ME2, and the derelict reaper that would have been great locations.

The exposition heavy ME1 could be argued to fulfill that role, although it was really about filling in the Universe for the player, and why I could understand the third game being lighter in that regards. (Not saying I wanted less conversation though. I would have loved more conversation addressed to the experience of folks living through a cycle - like the story of the PTSD Asari) It may well be that such a thing as the catalyst is simply misplaced in location.

As an aside, Shepherd strikes me more as one of Statius' characters. While Aeneas was a largely passive receipent of the Roman universal plan, Statius had more Shepherd-like heroes. There was Capaneus, who was so fearsome Zeus struck him down with a ligtning bolt, but had a second one ready in case he survived. Or there was Amphiarus, who did not fall as any normal warrior, but who found the ground open so that he rode his chariot straight before the throne of Hades. 

For me, if anybody was going to forge their own path through a tale of death and the hereafter, it was Shepherd. If Starchild wanted to enunicate their universal plan, fine. 

He'd need more than one lightning bolt to convince my Shepherd.


EDIT: uugh, my grammer is shocking

EDIT 2: No pun intended...

 

I will confess I have not read any of the works you mentioned (This thread is beginning to make me feel very inadequate in my literary pursuits), but I would think that Mass Effect 2 was meant to fill the role you suggest, even going so far as to pass through Hades and return (tip-toeing past Cerberus even).

There was much in ME2 that was buidling to the Dark Energy storyline that was eventually discarded, and it is possible that the Catalyst was then used to fill the expositionary role. Though I believe it could have been done better than the last 10 minutes of the game.

Edited with your update post. Also I like the pun. :)

Modifié par edisnooM, 11 mai 2012 - 03:26 .


#1872
Seijin8

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drayfish wrote...

Hawk227 wrote...
*Was anyone else super dissapointed that rescuing the Elcor on Dekuuna consisted of orbiting the planet, reading its description and going back to the Citadel? I would have gladly traded 3 N7 missions for the chance to race down in envirosuits to ward off ravagers as elcor hobbled onto the normandy. Talking to them in the shuttle bay like Kirrahe after Virmire. Actually, this is what the N7 missions should have been. Quick little rescue missions to different homeworlds, pulling Hanar and Drell off of Kahje, Volus off of Irune, that sort of thing.

Yes! Yes, absolutely! I had the exact same experience! The Elcor asked for help and I bolted to the Normandy, thinking we'd finally get to glimpse that high gravity landscape: Elcor shuffling majest-awkwardly toward rescue. I would have loved that!  Three games and I never saw one of those guys move.
 

And on the journey back, we'd have some Elcor milling around on the ship, maybe in the cargo bay or Thane's old room:
 
Elcor: 'With-Increasing-Shame-and-Horror: Shepard, the Normandy's bathrooms are not equipped for the Elcor digestive system.'
 
Shepard: '...Uh, okay. Garrus, can you get a hose?'


Scene:  The Deck 4 starboard cargo bay.  Door opens, Shepard leads the way, followed by Tali and Garrus carrying a large footlocker and Liara levitating a bucket.  Javik approaches at a distance.

Shepard:  "Uh, excuse us Ms. Allers... when Zaeed used this room there was some sort of airlock for trash... uh... can we... oh gawd, your bed is right there... uh... "

Allers:  "Shepard, I'm a war correspondednt, I don't scare so eas --- what IS that?!?"

Garrus and Tali haul the footlocker over the threshold.  Suspicious orange runnels flow out from the edges.  Liara has wisely stasised her bucket, using lift to transport it.

Garrus grumbles to Tali:  "At least you've got an environmental suit..."

Allers' camera drone starts to wobble in flight... mutters about unexpected atmospheric conditions....

Garrus:  "I'll say this, Shepard, you've opened my eyes to so many things over the years.... so many things..."

Javik:  "In my cycle --"

Liara:  "-- Shut it, Javik!  Even *I* don't want to know--"

Tali:  "-- Keelah, I think... I can smell it through the suit..."

Allers claps both hands over her face, trying to edge around the group toward the exit.

Liara:  "Don't think about it.  It helps if you... try not to --"

Garrus:  "-- Careful around this turn, my peripheral vision never quite recovered --"

The camera drone smashes into the wall and detonates.

Shepard:  "-- Watch the.. !!"

Tali:  "Bosh'tet!"

Modifié par Seijin8, 11 mai 2012 - 03:29 .


#1873
edisnooM

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Seijin8 wrote...

drayfish wrote...

Hawk227 wrote...
*Was anyone else super dissapointed that rescuing the Elcor on Dekuuna consisted of orbiting the planet, reading its description and going back to the Citadel? I would have gladly traded 3 N7 missions for the chance to race down in envirosuits to ward off ravagers as elcor hobbled onto the normandy. Talking to them in the shuttle bay like Kirrahe after Virmire. Actually, this is what the N7 missions should have been. Quick little rescue missions to different homeworlds, pulling Hanar and Drell off of Kahje, Volus off of Irune, that sort of thing.

Yes! Yes, absolutely! I had the exact same experience! The Elcor asked for help and I bolted to the Normandy, thinking we'd finally get to glimpse that high gravity landscape: Elcor shuffling majest-awkwardly toward rescue. I would have loved that!  Three games and I never saw one of those guys move.
 

And on the journey back, we'd have some Elcor milling around on the ship, maybe in the cargo bay or Thane's old room:
 
Elcor: 'With-Increasing-Shame-and-Horror: Shepard, the Normandy's bathrooms are not equipped for the Elcor digestive system.'
 
Shepard: '...Uh, okay. Garrus, can you get a hose?'


Scene:  The Deck 4 starboard cargo bay.  Door opens, Shepard leads the way, followed by Tali and Garrus carrying a large footlocker and Liara levitating a bucket.  Javik approaches at a distance.

Shepard:  "Uh, excuse us Ms. Allers... when Zaeed used this room there was some sort of airlock for trash... uh... can we... oh gawd, your bed is right there... uh... "

Allers:  "Shepard, I'm a war correspondednt, I don't scare so eas --- what IS that?!?"

Garrus and Tali haul the footlocker over the threshold.  Suspicious orange runnels flow out from the edges.  Liara has wisely stasised her bucket, using lift to transport it.

Garrus grumbles to Tali:  "At least you've got an environmental suit..."

Allers' camera drone starts to wobble in flight... mutters about unexpected atmospheric conditions....

Garrus:  "I'll say this, Shepard, you've opened my eyes to so many things over the years.... so many things..."

Javik:  "In my cycle --"

Liara:  "-- Shut it, Javik!  Even *I* don't want to know--"

Tali:  "-- Keelah, I think... I can smell it through the suit..."

Allers claps both hands over her face, trying to edge around the group toward the exit.

Liara:  "Don't think about it.  It helps if you... try not to --"

Garrus:  "-- Careful around this turn, my peripheral vision never quite recovered --"

The camera drone smashes into the wall and detonates.

Shepard:  "-- Watch the.. !!"

Tali:  "Bosh'tet!"


Well. That is horrifying. Curse my vivid imagination. :mellow:

#1874
Jorji Costava

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Just wanted to start by saying this is an amazing discussion; don't know if I'll have much to contribute, as my grasp of literature isn't so great, but I thought I'd throw in my two cents anyways.

drayfish wrote. . .

p.s. - I've always thought that there was ample room to break down the tripartite division of Star Trek through the division of the 'Just Soul' posited by Plato in The Republic. Spock as the Head; Kirk as the Appetite; McCoy as the Spirit. Individually
they fail, together they regulate their emotions and find innovative
new ways to confront the universe and evolve. 
 
Indeed, there are
plenty of Greek and Roman references to pad out such a study: Vulcans
are just Roman Stoics with pointy ears; Klingons are Spartans. For the
real Trek nerds out there: that's
why Romulus and Remus are named after the brothers who founded
Rome. Did I just blow your mind? No? Not at all? ...Okay, I'll just go
sit quietly over there in the corner then.


Mind=blown. So there actually was a thematic justification for pairing Kirk with all those Green-Skinned Space Babes? (Actually, I'm nerdy enough to know that this never happened in Trek except in the 2009 movie). If anyone here watched Babylon 5, the Grey Council seems to be another good example of airlifting ideas from Plato's Republic.

edisnooM wrote. . .

Throughout the story we are given the role to forge paths for others to
follow. That is until the end. I wonder if there might be a poignant
point in the name given our final foe the Catalyst. Hereto this point
that has been our Shepards role, but now at the end it is plucked from
us, given to another who perverts it for his own ends. Now we do not
forge the path, instead they are forged for us and we must follow them
like it or not.


I found this to be an interesting yet potentially disturbing thought, because if true, it helps bring into relief how insulting the final message is ("Shepard has become a legend by ending the Reaper threat."). There doesn't seem to be anything legendary about ceding one's agency to the enemy at the most critical hour. I don't think it was the developers' intent (although probably you don't mean to imply this), as I can't help but feel that everything about the ending is a mish-mash of ideas that don't translate into execution. The equivalent would be writing a scene about what you think will be the tragic death of a beloved character, only to find out that audiences despised the character and rejoiced in his death. I think that the developers most likely conceived of the final decision as an epic moment along the lines of the Deus Ex endings, where Shepard gets to make a choice that will shape the course of galactic events forever. But it certainly doesn't feel that way, and the name of the catalyst, as you point out, only emphasizes this.

Lastly, let me join the others in wishing KitaSaturnyne a good night's rest. You have no idea who I am (and if you did, you'd probably wish you didn't), but I can always sympathize with sleeping troubles. My usual solution is to read an especially boring book, almost always non-fiction. It's amazing the soporific effect that can have.

#1875
MrAtomica

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Ah yes, Dekuuna. This was easily one of the most underwhelming moments of Mass Effect 3. I feel the need to tell the whole story exactly as it happened, since I was struck by how much of a let down it was.

Prior to speaking to the Elcor Ambassador, I had already scanned all available planets (being the obsessive-compulsive completionist that I am), and thus had already visited Dekuuna. After speaking with him about his planet, I ran back to the Normandy as fast as Shepard's legs could carry him (incidentally, not terribly fast at all).

I traveled back to Dekuuna, and proceeded to ping it with my scan. When that yielded no result, I ran my scanner over every last inch of the planet, desperately looking for the telltale white blip marking the opportunity to finally get a proper look at the Elcor homeworld. Imagine my surprise when I discovered nothing whatsoever. No anomaly, no chance to launch a probe, nothing.

Feeling more than a little deflated, I trudged back to the ambassador. Upon reaching him, I found that I had already completed the supposed rescue on my first fly-over, and was thus done with the "quest". Needless to say, I was annoyed.

Frankly, it is moments like these that have a lasting negative impact on me, perhaps even more so than the endings. With the endings, I now know that Bioware is at least attempting to reconcile their vision of the story with mine. Whether they accomplish that or not, there was an effort made.

With little elements, such as Dekuuna, there is a sense of the issue being glazed over. The inclusion of a real mission here could have added to the waning value of this game. Instead, I remember many of the side-quests as frustratingly limited. There was a sense of having moved backwards, rather than progressing, as a series logically should from one installment to the next.

This fits in well with drayfish's eloquently worded observation on the core of the Mass Effect series. Exploration, or the feeling of wonderment at setting foot on new frontiers, meeting new people and blazing new trails, is what so powerfully drove the original Mass Effect. I was one of the few who actually enjoyed the Mako, to a certain extent (it handled in a similar fashion to a drunk Rhinoceros), for the simple fact that I could land it on so many planets. I lost count of the number of times I stopped to look up and around at the scenery. Despite how often the view was relatively barren, I still felt that sense of awe at being immersed in such a beautiful universe.

Mass Effect 2 managed to capture some of this essence in spite of its paradigm shift from a somewhat "fringe RPG" to a "AAA commercial success". We still landed on planets, we still had a variety of hub worlds to explore and get into trouble on. Even better, DLC expanded upon the original Mako concept, refining it into the Hammerhead (the fact the Hammerhead was made of tissue paper aside, of course); in particular, the planet Aite from Project Overlord was an astonishingly lovely location. However, there was a tangible sense that exploration, in the sense of Mass Effect 1 (planetary exploration), had taken a back-seat to action.

What Mass Effect 2 introduced, at least to me, was a fascinating remedy: instead of allowing us to explore the reaches of the universe, we were invited to delve into the minds of our companions. Our crew in Mass Effect 2  doubled in size. Amazingly, every one of those dozen was given a unqiue story, a unique way of approaching life. We lost the Mako, but we gained a squad. The deep conversations we had with characters like Samara and Thane staved off the bitterness that some of us felt toward the "streamlining" of Mass Effect 2. It didn't matter that we had fewer vistas to run over every inch of, because we were afforded a meaningful alternative. We learned to care about the galaxy not just for the chance to travel its width and set foot on new soil, but also for the lives of the people we came to care about. This was present in Mass Effect 1, certainly, but 2 truly hammered home the importance of "our" characters.

Which leads us to Mass Effect 3.

In this game, the wonderment from both previous games is...simply gone. The pioneering spirit that carried us forward to do battle with Saren and the Collectors has vanished, replaced by the gunmetal grey of war, replete with all the violently chaotic rushing about to save the galaxy. Illium, Virmire, and Omega have been cut down to the Citadel, the lone "hub" we are allowed to explore unmolested. In nearly every location we find ourselves, desloation and desperation hang overhead like a black cloud.

Even on the gorgeous landscapes of Sur'Kesh and Tuchanka (the old city), Reapers loom in the background. We are rarely given a moment to catch our breath. Those long pauses, where we would stand back and look up at stars, simply have no place in this game. We are always running toward the "ultimate goal", always pushing forward to the inevitable confrontation with the Reapers. There was no time for us to take a step back and simply look, not in the way that this arc of the story was presented. That pains me a great deal.

The same unfortunate truth holds for the crew interactions as well. We are given precious few moments with our friends and cohorts, far less than in the previous game. Adding insult to injury, our "conversations" were forced down two extreme paths. We were no longer given the option of stopping to explore our squadmates. Each "talk" felt as though it ended before it had truly begun. They were still emotionally engaging, especially those involving LIs, but many people (myself included) felt the bite of the "Kasumi/Zaeed Effect". We weren't truly getting to know these people anymore, the interaction largely boiled down to a short reprieve from the cloying responsiblity of finding a means to survive. Matters were not improved by the unfitting treatment that many of the Mass Effect cast recieved, both former squadmates and some of the more popular minor characters.

Which I suppose brings me to the end of my rambling. Mass Effect 3 was billed as a game hinged on the goal of saving a galaxy worth saving. It was, but only because of the investment that I carried over from the first two games. This installment tried to get by largely by merit of its action. Most moments in the game were related quite directly to foiling the Reapers. Some of these moments worked, some fell flat. I would suggest that those which did resonate with the community were those which toned down the war rhetoric and built upon the relationships we had forged throughout the trilogy, as well as the planets and peoples connected to those relationships. I cared about Tuchanka because I cared about Wrex, about Mordin, and had a sincere desire to right the wrong of the Genophage. I cared about Rannoch because Tali was my friend, and I wished nothing more than to find a way to end the bitter rift between her people and the Geth, one which could give her the chance to build that house her father promised her.

If I were someone who were just dropped into this universe, without any sense of context of backstory, I would find little reason to care about what happens to everyone. This would just be "another one of those save the world stories and blah, blah, blah. I'll just shoot stuff until nothing shoots back anymore. Oh look, those relays thingies are gone, ah well." Thing is, I can't blame people like this. Mass Effect 3 just does not provide the same level of...investment...or immersion that the other two did. This is why it works as a stand-alone title, and simultaneously fails as part of a trilogy. There simply isn't enough of the universe there to get a real grasp of why you should care about saving it, so new players are hardly surprised or upset by the sheer havoc the endings wreak on "our" galaxy.

Likewise, this betrayal of all that we have come to value makes loyal fans of the whole series rightfully furious. We feel as though we were cast aside to make room for a new crowd of fans. Ironically, those fans are of the notoriously fickle kind, those who rarely form a lasting bond with a story. The endings play out in light of all this, ignoring a fair portion of the previously established narrative foundation from Mass Effect and Mass Effect 2.

In some ways, I feel as though I got another recycled FPS title, complete with the dreadfully nihilistic message of "War is hell". Yes, I understand that. I have seen and heard that mantra repeated oft enough to be capable of hearing it in my sleep. But this story was not only about war in and of itself. Moreover, it was about what comes after the war is over, what the people I saved do with their freedom. That is what I was fighting for, who I was fighting for.

Whew, that was a very long post. Someone mentions Dekuuna, and I take the liberty of tossing out a convoluted rant. Goes to show just how hopelessly attatched to this story I am. Hope you can all make some sense of the jumble of thoughts.

Also, pardon the overuse of commas -- my grammar skills have not sharpened noticably despite the best efforts of my professors. I'm more than slightly self-conscious, considering I am in a thread chock full of academics. :P

Modifié par MrAtomica, 11 mai 2012 - 03:48 .