5087 réponses à ce sujet

[frypan]

edisnooM wrote...

I will confess I have not read any of the works you mentioned (This thread is beginning to make me feel very inadequate in my literary pursuits), but I would think that Mass Effect 2 was meant to fill the role you suggest, even going so far as to pass through Hades and return (tip-toeing past Cerberus even).

There was much in ME2 that was buidling to the Dark Energy storyline that was eventually discarded, and it is possible that the Catalyst was then used to fill the expositionary role. Though I believe it could have been done better than the last 10 minutes of the game.

Edited with your update post. Also I like the pun. 

I Wouldnt feel too bad about the literary pursuits - "tip toeing past Cerberus"  is a classical allusion there I had completely missed! Not only that, but the image of Cerberus fits in other ways.

The Illusive man stood as self appointed watchdog for humanity, with a nightmare future in mind if he'd got his way. Sanctuary, while well done,  was one of those places in the game I thought could have brought the idea home a little stronger. 

If only they'd worked Cerberus into the story as more than a reference to the structure of the organisation, classicists could have had a field day.

I tend to feel overwhelmed with the  qualifications of folks on this thread too, but thats why its so great. I feel there's so much to learn from people's posts. While folks like CultureGeekGIrl sometimes feel like the heart, and Drayfish the mind of this thread, everybody seems to fit into those roles as well, making it more than the sum of its individual posts. Wonderful stuff. 

[Seijin8]

@MrAtomica: Nothing convoluted about that rant. It was heartfelt and utterly true on all its points. Thanks for adding to the discussion.

[KitaSaturnyne]

@osbornep

Thank you for your sentiments. The only way I'd wish I never knew you is if you were one of my managers at work. It amazes me how people with an IQ that doesn't even rival a cinderblock can become higher-ups at a retail franchise. I'll have to buy a book on particle physics or something so my nights will be a lot more restful.

On another note, I absolutely loved the myriad worlds we could explore in ME2. But since ME3 begins with the Reapers attacking Earth, how would one be able to balance taking extra time to tour the galaxy with getting back to Earth ASAP? There would be a point after all where even eager galaxy explorers would go "Okay, I've been at this for quite a while, aren't people still back on Earth dying?"

@drayfish

I meant to say earlier that I love your Elcor bathroom imagery. It made me realize that the only bathroom on the entire Normandy is in Shepard's cabin, a mere 20 or so feet from his sexnest. I mean, bed.

"Oh, don't mind me, Shepard. I'm just here to drop some brown bombs in between calibrations. You continue your little away mission on Cortez over there."

[delta_vee]

@drayfish:

Truly, thank you. An excellent piece.

Once that uniting premise is torn – once the thematic bonds that have fuelled the entire journey have been altered, and the family through which these themes were interrogated is irreparably ruptured – then gaping holes in the plot open up for inspection that risk exposing the tale as wanting.

More than merely plot holes, but that's what happened to me. It took a little while to fully sink in, but the Ten Minutes shattered my connection to Mass Effect. The insufferable critical homunculus perched on my shoulder hadn't shut up since the kid in the beginning, but suddenly I had nothing with which to offer it in rejoinder.

Quite frankly, I'm now more interested in ME as a critical object than a work to be experienced.

@frypan:

If I can pick up on the classical/trek allusions raised above, does anybody think we had an equivalent to the journey to the Underworld common in epic? A place, as in the Aeneid, where the Universal themes are enunciated to the central character.

If we're to take the series as a whole, I'd say it was the entirety of ME2. If we're restricting ourselves to ME3, I would say it was the mission to Sanctuary that would fit the Underworld role best (lacking somewhat as it was).

Modifié par delta_vee, 11 mai 2012 - 03:53 .

[Seijin8]

KitaSaturnyne wrote...

I meant to say earlier that I love your Elcor bathroom imagery. It made me realize that the only bathroom on the entire Normandy is in Shepard's cabin, a mere 20 or so feet from his sexnest. I mean, bed.

LOL, but there are bathrooms on the crew deck.  It always amused me that you can only go into the one for whatever gender you play.  I'm captain of this ship, and I can check the "maintenance logs" of both bathrooms if I want!

[delta_vee]

@MrAtomica:

Your usage of commas is in line with my own. You needn't apologize, or I would be compelled to as well. I...wouldn't want that.

And a fine rant to boot, by the by.

[edisnooM]

MrAtomica wrote...

[Snipped reluctantly for size]

Excellent post and very true. Also I had never seen the Loyalty missions and dialogue with our squad in ME2 as substitutes for the open world exploration of ME1, a very good point.

[jbauck]

osbornep wrote...
I found this to be an interesting yet potentially disturbing thought, because if true, it helps bring into relief how insulting the final message is ("Shepard has become a legend by ending the Reaper threat."). There doesn't seem to be anything legendary about ceding one's agency to the enemy at the most critical hour.

So, I snipped out this quote, because I loved it - especially "ceding one's agency to the enemy at the most critical hour."

But that reminds me - did anyone else feel like Shepard's death was the exact opposite of a Heroic Sacrifice, to the point where they are confused by people talking about how their Shepard made this great heroic sacrifice at the end?

Seems to me that Shepard was killed by a Reaper Trick (or maybe just Faulty Catalyst Wiring) rather than making a great sacrifice.  Compare to DA:O, where the Warden has to decide - twice - that dying for the cause is the right thing to do.  In that game, I specifically made what I call "Fereldan Patriot Warden" to stick to her metaphorical guns and take one for the team, steadfastly refusing every opportunity to avoid death ... but Shepard just ... kind of ... dies ...

[KitaSaturnyne]

Seijin8 wrote...

LOL, but there are bathrooms on the crew deck.  It always amused me that you can only go into the one for whatever gender you play.  I'm captain of this ship, and I can check the "maintenance logs" of both bathrooms if I want!

Oh yeah, I forgot about those. Probably because I never check them, hehe. My routine once back aboard the Normandy was to exit the War Room, check in with Joker and EDI, then head up to the Cabin, hit the fish feeder, see the hamster, then flush the toilet.

The latter two give the fish time to go through their little eating animations so I don't have to come back from a mission to a tank of dead fish knowing that I had pressed that damned feed button. Also, I wanted to spend my cash on the Spectre weapons, not the fish feeder VI. I mean, 25 grand? Seriously?

[jbauck]

I totally bought the fish feeder VI Liara + BioticShepard = I Don't Need Guns.

[Seijin8]

KitaSaturnyne wrote...

Also, I wanted to spend my cash on the Spectre weapons, not the fish feeder VI. I mean, 25 grand? Seriously?

Well, the VI is only 1500 credits, but the shackles that keep it in line are 23500 credits.  You can get the cheapo version (probably in Omega DLC), but right after waking up from a starkid nightmare, your fish tank may float out from the wall like a Borg cube as husked fish attempt to attack you.

On a (slightly) more serious note, fishtank VI for my starship cabin seems like such a ludicrous luxury item that I think the 25K pricetag is reasonable.  I mean, who is buying these things?

[edisnooM]

osbornep wrote...


I found this to be an interesting yet potentially disturbing thought, because if true, it helps bring into relief how insulting the final message is ("Shepard has become a legend by ending the Reaper threat."). There doesn't seem to be anything legendary about ceding one's agency to the enemy at the most critical hour. I don't think it was the developers' intent (although probably you don't mean to imply this), as I can't help but feel that everything about the ending is a mish-mash of ideas that don't translate into execution. The equivalent would be writing a scene about what you think will be the tragic death of a beloved character, only to find out that audiences despised the character and rejoiced in his death. I think that the developers most likely conceived of the final decision as an epic moment along the lines of the Deus Ex endings, where Shepard gets to make a choice that will shape the course of galactic events forever. But it certainly doesn't feel that way, and the name of the catalyst, as you point out, only emphasizes this.

I'm starting to wonder if there might be a disconnect between BioWare and its fans actually. I just finished going through the Final Hours app (after delta_vee informed me I could get it for PC), and some of the things they say leads me to believe they truly may have misunderstood what it was fans wanted from the endgame.

Also on the topic of Deus Ex that part actually kind of annoys me, and I can't believe there hasn't been more controversy around the fact that the ending choices were seemingly appropriated entirely from Deus Ex.

Modifié par edisnooM, 11 mai 2012 - 04:16 .

[KitaSaturnyne]

Hehe good points to both of you, jbauck and Seijin. I just wonder if EDI could have fit it into her busy schedule. She always seemed to have the processing power to spare - "at 15:00 every day, feed Shepard's fish".

[frypan]

MrAtomica wrote...

snip (RELUCTANTLY, there is so  much good stuff here)

In this game, the wonderment from both previous games is...simply gone. The pioneering spirit that carried us forward to do battle with Saren and the Collectors has vanished, replaced by the gunmetal grey of war, replete with all the violently chaotic rushing about to save the galaxy. Illium, Virmire, and Omega have been cut down to the Citadel, the lone "hub" we are allowed to explore unmolested. In nearly every location we find ourselves, desloation and desperation hang overhead like a black cloud.

Even on the gorgeous landscapes of Sur'Kesh and Tuchanka (the old city), Reapers loom in the background. We are rarely given a moment to catch our breath. Those long pauses, where we would stand back and look up at stars, simply have no place in this game. We are always running toward the "ultimate goal", always pushing forward to the inevitable confrontation with the Reapers. There was no time for us to take a step back and simply look, not in the way that this arc of the story was presented. That pains me a great deal.

This pretty much captures my feelings as well. You're among fellow souls here and have encapsulated the essence of what bothers so many of us. 

I just visited Therum from ME1 last night, the planet where the marines were killed by a Thresher maw. While the Mako was a nightmare to fight in, when I topped a rise and caught the sun through a haze of dust and falling meteors, I was transfixed.

There was also a ruined vehicle half buried in the sand over a nearby ridge. No reason for it to be there, no loot to be gained, but it struck me for the feelings it evoked. Who were the crew? Why did they abandon the vehicle and did they make it home?

In all probably it was just some unfinished content, but it really had an effect on me.

I never felt that way in ME3 which was such a shame, even if I could understand the loss of content for pacing reasons. Such a shame.

[delta_vee]

edisnooM wrote...

I'm starting to wonder if there might be a disconnect between BioWare and its fans actually. I just finished going through the Final Hours app (after delta_vee informed me I could get it for PC), and some of the things they say leads me to believe they truly may have misunderstood what it was fans wanted from the endgame.

Also on the topic of Deus Ex that actually kind of annoys me, and I can't believe there hasn't been more controversy around the fact that the ending choices were seemingly appropriated entirely from Deus Ex.

The most bitterly ironic thing about the DX comparison is how both DX and DXHR spent their entire respective games leading up to their end choices. **** as one might about the Ending-O-Matic-9000 device as a gameplay mechanism, the choices on offer were presaged early and often in both games, supported both by the characters' dialogue throughout and by the multitude of smaller moral decisions made along the way.

Oh, and the kicker? Deus Ex: Human Revolution had the fourth choice we all wish ME3 had: the option to tell the powers that be go go fsck themselves and bring down the temple around our head like Samson.

[edisnooM]

frypan wrote...


This pretty much captures my feelings as well. You're among fellow souls here and have encapsulated the essence of what bothers so many of us. 

I just visited Therum from ME1 last night, the planet where the marines were killed by a Thresher maw. While the Mako was a nightmare to fight in, when I topped a rise and caught the sun through a haze of dust and falling meteors, I was transfixed.

There was also a ruined vehicle half buried in the sand over a nearby ridge. No reason for it to be there, no loot to be gained, but it struck me for the feelings it evoked. Who were the crew? Why did they abandon the vehicle and did they make it home?

In all probably it was just some unfinished content, but it really had an effect on me.

I never felt that way in ME3 which was such a shame, even if I could understand the loss of content for pacing reasons. Such a shame.

Sorry I'm going to be really nitpicky here and point out that Therum is where you meet Liara, while Edolus is where you find the missing marines. 

[edisnooM]

delta_vee wrote...

edisnooM wrote...

I'm starting to wonder if there might be a disconnect between BioWare and its fans actually. I just finished going through the Final Hours app (after delta_vee informed me I could get it for PC), and some of the things they say leads me to believe they truly may have misunderstood what it was fans wanted from the endgame.

Also on the topic of Deus Ex that actually kind of annoys me, and I can't believe there hasn't been more controversy around the fact that the ending choices were seemingly appropriated entirely from Deus Ex.

The most bitterly ironic thing about the DX comparison is how both DX and DXHR spent their entire respective games leading up to their end choices. **** as one might about the Ending-O-Matic-9000 device as a gameplay mechanism, the choices on offer were presaged early and often in both games, supported both by the characters' dialogue throughout and by the multitude of smaller moral decisions made along the way.

Oh, and the kicker? Deus Ex: Human Revolution had the fourth choice we all wish ME3 had: the option to tell the powers that be go go fsck themselves and bring down the temple around our head like Samson.

Aw, that would be awesome. Shepard pulls out a LAM Frag Grenade. "Let me show you my solution." Cue 80's action movie music and explosion.

[drayfish]

@ MrAtomica:
 
Firstly, what a wonderful post – marvellously described. And I would in no way call that a 'convoluted rant'.  Rants don't contain such eloquence as this:
 

MrAtomica wrote...
The pioneering spirit that carried us forward to do battle with Saren and the Collectors has vanished, replaced by the gunmetal grey of war, replete with all the violently chaotic rushing about to save the galaxy. Illium, Virmire, and Omega have been cut down to the Citadel, the lone "hub" we are allowed to explore unmolested. In nearly every location we find ourselves, desloation and desperation hang overhead like a black cloud.

Even on the gorgeous landscapes of Sur'Kesh and Tuchanka (the old city), Reapers loom in the background. We are rarely given a moment to catch our breath. Those long pauses, where we would stand back and look up at stars, simply have no place in this game. We are always running toward the "ultimate goal", always pushing forward to the inevitable confrontation with the Reapers. There was no time for us to take a step back and simply look, not in the way that this arc of the story was presented. That pains me a great deal.

I know precisely what you mean. Obviously the central premise of this game is the chaotic, desperate scramble toward preparing a response to an unstoppable force – and it's impossible not to be stunned by the grandeur and terror of those Reapers dispassionately slicing through civilisation at moments like the fall of Palaven – but I do, much like you, miss some of the quieter scenes. There are glimmers of character interaction between all the carnage (Liara's gift is particularly beautiful), but the (arguably necessary) breakneck pace can throttle some of those lovely, lengthier moments of dialogue and colour that would break up the previous games.
 
I have always been a mad planet-reader in Mass Effects 1 and 2. I would cover every square inch of every landscape in the Mako and read each scanner history, marvelling at the rich tapesty of this universe; but reading your post just then I realised that I didn't really do that at all in Mass Effect 3. A product of that sense of expediency, no doubt, but still a bit of a shame.
 

p.s. – Also, Seijin8, the scene you described may just be the most disturbing thing I've ever read... Brilliant.

Modifié par drayfish, 11 mai 2012 - 04:32 .

[frypan]

edisnooM wrote...

I'm starting to wonder if there might be a disconnect between BioWare and its fans actually. I just finished going through the Final Hours app (after delta_vee informed me I could get it for PC), and some of the things they say leads me to believe they truly may have misunderstood what it was fans wanted from the endgame.

Also on the topic of Deus Ex that part actually kind of annoys me, and I can't believe there hasn't been more controversy around the fact that the ending choices were seemingly appropriated entirely from Deus Ex.

The ending of Deus Ex 3 Human Revolution is very pertinent, and while many have drawn a parallel, there is another issue. While the original Deus Ex had three endings, Human Revolution, if my memory is correct had four. There are the three consoles, but if you reject these, there is a corridor that can be followed to the fourth - the one I chose.  

Interestingly the fourth option effectlvely tells the various factions to go to hell and lets humanity choose its own future.

Just hoping to clarify that my memory is correct here - if anyone else has played the recent iteration. If I am right, Bioware should have paid attention to choice no 4 as while it had a price, I deemed it my choice and  much better than submission to another's agenda.

EDIT: Thanks Delta Vee, you beat me to that .Glad to see my memory was correct.

Modifié par frypan, 11 mai 2012 - 04:29 .

[KitaSaturnyne]

edisnooM wrote...

Also on the topic of Deus Ex that part actually kind of annoys me, and I can't believe there hasn't been more controversy around the fact that the ending choices were seemingly appropriated entirely from Deus Ex.

First, I hope you're not saying anything bad about Deus Ex. I love those games, even Invisible War.

I think Deus Ex did a better job with these sorts of endings. The world-shaking consequences of these choices was explored, and were not left until the VERY end of the overall narrative. Mass Effect 3 just brings the entire galactic stage tumbling to the ground, tells you a story just happened*, then says Shepard is a legend.

I asked a co-worker how she felt about completely new characters being introduced in the final scenes in a story. She said, as simply an avid reader, that it could be done, but it would have to be done right. She said it was okay to introduce characters that late in the story, but only if they were going to be explored in a future narrative. I then amended my question: What if no continuation in the narrative is intended (like the ending to Mass Effect 3)? Her response was,

"Ha, ha, ha. No."

*Is that the point of the Stargazer scene? To tell you that a story just happened? I kind of clued into that when I booted up the game. Am I missing something here?

[Jorji Costava]

edisnooM wrote. . .

Also on the topic of Deus Ex that actually kind of annoys me, and I
can't believe there hasn't been more controversy around the fact that
the ending choices were seemingly appropriated entirely from Deus Ex.

Completely agree with this. The degree of similarity was such as to be immersion-breaking for me. I've always thought this was a knockdown-rebuttal to the whole "artistic integrity" argument.

[delta_vee]

edisnooM wrote...

Aw, that would be awesome. Shepard pulls out a LAM Frag Grenade. "Let me show you my solution." Cue 80's action movie music and explosion.

Despite the raw appeal of that, the fourth option in DXHR was...quieter. More deliberate. Suggested, unbidden, by the AI who has proven herself to be your ally. A fade to black accompanied by the sounds of pressure hulls imploding, and an almost-whispered "it was an honor".

I think it was the truest ending.

[frypan]

edisnooM wrote...

Sorry I'm going to be really nitpicky here and point out that Therum is where you meet Liara, while Edolus is where you find the missing marines. 

Oops, that'd be my shoddy referencing yet again. Had Therum weighing heavily on my mind while there - getting ready for that tough boss fight with the Krogan by scouring the lesser planets for loot and XP.

Or, I shoud say, for the fine views and sense of atmosphere

[edisnooM]

KitaSaturnyne wrote...

edisnooM wrote...

Also on the topic of Deus Ex that part actually kind of annoys me, and I can't believe there hasn't been more controversy around the fact that the ending choices were seemingly appropriated entirely from Deus Ex.

First, I hope you're not saying anything bad about Deus Ex. I love those games, even Invisible War.

I think Deus Ex did a better job with these sorts of endings. The world-shaking consequences of these choices was explored, and were not left until the VERY end of the overall narrative. Mass Effect 3 just brings the entire galactic stage tumbling to the ground, tells you a story just happened*, then says Shepard is a legend.

I asked a co-worker how she felt about completely new characters being introduced in the final scenes in a story. She said, as simply an avid reader, that it could be done, but it would have to be done right. She said it was okay to introduce characters that late in the story, but only if they were going to be explored in a future narrative. I then amended my question: What if no continuation in the narrative is intended (like the ending to Mass Effect 3)? Her response was,

"Ha, ha, ha. No."

*Is that the point of the Stargazer scene? To tell you that a story just happened? I kind of clued into that when I booted up the game. Am I missing something here?

To clarify in case I gave the wrong impression, I was not saying anything bad against Deus Ex, merely stating that BioWare seemingly took the ending choices entirely from the first game which I found a bit annoying.

As to the Stargazer scene in the Final Hours app Casey Hudson said and I quote:

"Everyone is going to have a different ending to some degree based on their choices and their galactic readiness, so it was important for me to have one final scene where everyone has the exact same experience." 

 Right.

Modifié par edisnooM, 11 mai 2012 - 04:41 .

[delta_vee]

KitaSaturnyne wrote...
I love those games, even Invisible War.

What game are you referring to? I remember no such thing. There are two Deus Ex games, not three!