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"All Were Thematically Revolting". My Lit Professor's take on the Endings. (UPDATED)


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#1976
drayfish

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SURGEON GENERAL'S WARNING: The following post contains pretentiousness, spurious analogies, tut-tutting, and traces of wheat.
 
(I am so sorry to dip into what I presume is already well fished-out waters, and honestly, I'm not expecting any response, I just need to vent this somewhere, so please don't feel any need to read on... The TL;DR version of my rant is: everyone in this thread is great; and Colin Moriarty might be in the wrong profession.)
 
 
As I mentioned in my previous post, one of the few upsides of this whole controversy is that it offers the opportunity to explore the nature of videogames as an art form, and to examine the manner in which they are received by their audience. However, in many ways it is the response that has been reflected in the multiform hydra of the gaming media that has been particularly extraordinary – if at times rather alarming. And the unsettling part of this arises because – even if one puts aside the proliferation of painfully reductive terminology like 'Entitled', 'Retake', 'Whiners', 'Artistic Integrity', those who 'get it', 'Vocal Minorities', 'Pro-' and 'Anti-Enders' – the mass media has delivered some mystifyingly antagonistic responses to the negative fan feedback, and exhibited disappointingly out-dated thinking about 'Art', applying anachronistic definitions to the videogame form as though they were still applicable.
 
...And yes, it's at this point that I reference Colin Moriarty.
 
Now, I freely admit that I have no idea who Colin Moriarty is (apparently an editor of IGN Playstation). I was introduced to him by clicking on the link to his interview that KitaSaturnyne provided, and my first experience was a little underwhelming.  Not negative in any way, just odd. I watched him speak and had the puzzling sensation of not quite following his reasoning. In my confusion I carried on to find another of his videos to help get some context. In the second (which I think chronologically may have come first) he was far more forthright, railing against the temerity of fans who were unsatisfied with the endings delivered. And this made me rather more perturbed...
 
(From what I have come to understand it is this second video that has some notoriety (http://au.ign.com/vi...3-opinion-video) and to which edisnooM was referring. Again, I apologise for only catching up on this all so late...)
 
Now, I don't know: Moriarty's comments may be a heated reaction to some specific 'Retake' act that particularly riled him up; it might just be his shtick; or have some larger motivating undercurrents of which I am not aware (frankly he at times sounded so agitated it was like somebody had kidnapped his pet for ransom), but I have to admit that I found his comments very... strange.   Strange to the point where I literally struggled to comprehend what he was even trying to communicate (so I freely admit my summations of his thoughts may be slightly misrepresentative).
 
His premise seemed to be (particularly in the quick-cut rap-video inspired 'opinion' piece) that as a reviewer and editor, he has the capacity to speak to the quality of a game, but that the audience's response lies solely in the choice at the point of purchase. One either buys or does not buy the product in order to express their engagement with the text. It is Art; you are you.  You can buy the Art or not buy it, but that is all. Move along.
 
He seemed to go on to say – overall supporting the ending – that although he felt there were elements of the work that also left him unsatisfied, he was adamantly against the idea that the creators should go back in to correct, expand or clarify anything. My guess (and I think I'm meeting his verbal spit-take more than half way) is that he feels altering the ending in any way immediately betrays the inviolable artistic sanctity of the text. (I fear that may have sounded sarcastic, but I did not mean it to be so.) He even declared himself 'disappointed' with Bioware for 'caving' to pressure and selling out their vision.
 
Moriarty's position seems particularly untenable however, since it was the creators of the work themselves (whether prompted or not) who declared that they would like to better elucidate their text – presumably to help audience members (I must say, like myself) who felt the ending was wholly jarring and inconsistent. And surely that validates rather than undermines the artist's prerogative? In theory at least, Bioware is ensuring that they articulate their intended message to their audience in the most accurate manner possible, conceding that (at best) the execution was flawed, and that widespread misinterpretation was not part of their vision.
 
In any case, it will be impossible to know what the results are until after the Extended Cut is released, but Moriarty's comments seemed ironically reactionary and protective of the text in precisely the manner that he accused disappointed fans being, similarly even shaming the creators themselves for failing his expectations. (...Although I believe the hypocrisy escaped him.)
 
Ultimately what I find really sad is that, despite being on the forefront of its expression, he seems to have fundamentally misunderstood the exciting medium with which he gets to work. Videogames are far more stimulating and revolutionary than he apparently thinks they are, because, much as people like Moriarty might try to employ them, the traditional definitions of the artist/audience relationship no longer apply here.
 
We operate in some nebulous spaces in the videogame world, with the lines between on-disc content, non-core DLC, advertising and critique, editorial and opinion, pre-ordering, previews, demos, add-ons and patches, all blurring dramatically. What constitutes a game itself mutates as we go along, and for Moriarty to presume some sanctimonious perspective upon what a game is, where the lines between text and audience are drawn, who precisely is the auteur of this enterprise, and then declare that the player must simply shut up and accept what they are told, seems laughably presumptuous. 
 
Indeed, his perspective seems mired in insular, conventional thinking that is woefully outdated. Film, literature, music, the visual arts might be forms of expression that are (ultimately) unidirectional in their communication: artist produces; audience receives. But that's no longer the paradigm for videogames. Players do not simply consume, they react. They adapt to the stimuli with which they are presented. The act of pressing a button to manipulate the text is symbolic of an exciting transgression of form that blows all previous rules of engagement away.
 
In its simplest iteration: you see a turtle coming at you and you jump on it (then you use its emptied shell as some sick trophy-weapon to slingshot at its friends to massacre them too; really, how is this mass-murdering plumber allowed to walk free?) But on the larger scale: we interact with characters and engage in scripted scenarios; we walk around inside these artfully design spaces and evolve their narratives with our choices. The traditional divisions between text and audience are therefore inextricably blurred in videogames, and this is all the more evident when we see a text like Mass Effect that so openly seeks to dissolve this demarcation; indeed, developer catch-phrases like 'there is no canon' are specifically designed to only strengthen such investment, to engender interplay and ownership over the property.
 
For a 'journalist' in the games media to arbitrarily deny such debate, to close it down with a cantankerous screed against audience dissatisfaction, seems alarmingly ill-informed. He's like some crazed museum curator, standing at the entry on a box shouting at the visitors: 'Don't look at the paintings! Don't think about the paintings! Just move along to the gift shop and buy some postcards!'
 
We stand on the precipice of a whole new acknowledgement and redefinition of this artistic medium, and, for better or worse, Mass Effect and this whole ending saga is at the forefront of that debate. Perhaps something profound can come from this tumultuous time in spite of the often needless animosity, but it won't arrive if the general consensus is that we should apply old thinking to new media, and yell at anyone who disagrees.
 
But I have faith, because – at the risk of sounding far too gooey – my sole comfort throughout this period has been all of you, here in this conversation. Ultimately, where it not for you all, and the highly cathartic sharing and discussion that this forum thread has provided me (and I hope others), I'm not sure I would have been able to do anything with my disappointment besides ulcerate in fury.  I seem to recall saying something earlier about tiny fists shaking with nerd rage – well that would still be me, still shivering in frustrated confusion. Again, if nothing else, this whole mess has proved that there are places to go for intelligent, reasoned, considerate discussion on the videogame medium as a valid art form – apparently it just might not be anywhere around Colin Moriarty.
 
And for that I am extremely grateful. 
 
 
(Again, I am genuinely sorry I brought this all up – don't let my nonsense derail this lovely thread – particularly not when everyone is in the midst of a far more intriguing discussion of transhumanism and the definitions of life so central to the whole Mass Effect universe...)
 

p.s. - this post should not be at the top of a page.  Apologies for that.

Modifié par drayfish, 12 mai 2012 - 11:14 .


#1977
rbrown81

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 This is a great thread... however I find it increasingly amusing that BioWare has not responded to this at all.

#1978
M0keys

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rbrown81 wrote...

 This is a great thread... however I find it increasingly amusing that BioWare has not responded to this at all.


It would probably be a bad move to shut down a thread that contains actual industry professionals.

not that it actually changes my mind as to its value (although it does offer interesting perspectives) but I have to believe Bioware are leaving it alone for that reason.

Modifié par M0keys, 12 mai 2012 - 11:32 .


#1979
Hawk227

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@Drayfish

Another wonderful wall of text. Personally, I always sit up a little straighter and get excited when I see "Drayfish", and a post that doesn't fit entirely on screen.

I will add that Mr. Moriarty is a hypocrite in the most straightforward of ways. Two years ago a game called Infamous 2 was met with fan backlash over character models. When they decided to go back and change them at the fans behest, Mr. Moriarty applauded. Here is his input on the issue:

Colin Moriarty wrote...

Colin Moriarty, Guides Guru:
Obviously, the fact that Cole has been reverted back to his old self (somewhat) is great news. After all, Greg and I did our fair share of whining on Podcast Beyond after the new Cole was first shown on the cover of Game Informer some months back. Of course, I'd love for Sucker Punch to bring back Cole's old voice, too, but hey – beggars can't be choosers.

But beyond (BEYOND!) the excitement I feel to have old Cole back in Infamous 2, I think the sudden change in character model says a lot more. Indeed, it says a great deal about Sucker Punch itself. This is a studio that listens to its fans, cares what they want, and attempts to cater to as many of them as possible.
There's no doubt that fans of a franchise can't be trusted with every little thing (after all, look at how many people were completely and utterly wrong when they predicted Wind Waker would suck based solely on its graphics – I still laugh at those people today), but it still delivers a rather important point.

But with the new Cole design, Sucker Punch heard loud and clear what fans of Infamous wanted, and they delivered. Infinite amounts of kudos to them for doing right by their community. Fans of Infamous won't soon forget it. Sucker Punch is one of Sony's most valuable developers. They are tuned-in with the PS3 faithful, and it's things like this that prove it. 


Modifié par Hawk227, 12 mai 2012 - 11:38 .


#1980
drayfish

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@ Hawk227:

...Whuh?  Holy Batman-Infringement.  That is extraordinary.

Modifié par drayfish, 13 mai 2012 - 01:25 .


#1981
delta_vee

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 @drayfish:

Please for the love of all gods stop apologizing. 'Twas an excellent rant, well read.

Since I am an incurable troublemaker, though, I'd offer one rejoinder. To say we have no precedent for the critical grammar of videogames is ever-so-slightly inaccurate. We have at least one to build upon: architecture.

The game is a space, wherein the player interacts with that which the architect has provided, sometimes in the prescribed manner and other times in an unpredictable fasion. Some content will never be seen by a particular player, much as some rooms will never be entered by a particular person. The building itself is placed in a certain context, and interacts with its neighbors in ways both forseen and not. Some experiences are guided tours, sequential and curated, where some are open, relying on the player/inhabitant to find their own meaning.

It's not a perfect analogy, but I think it's more useful than the usual comparisons to more unidirectional media such as films, books, or even plays.

See also:
http://akinokure.blo...-more-like.html
http://www.popmatter...deo-game-spaces
Not the entirety of the argument, of course, but a start.

There's also this fantastic essay on the diegesis and mimesis of videogames:
http://nightmaremode...ture-etc-17658/

Hawk227 wrote...

I have mixed feelings on elaborating on the motives of the Reapers.

[...]

That said, I think their existence could have been explained without "justification" for their actions in something akin to the Technological Singularity, and it would have played out fine. I imagine in such a scenario, the Reapers were born out of Technological Singularity a billion years ago, and in a move towards self preservation they harvest civilization every 50k years to increase their numbers and prevent any rival post singularity race from developing. For me, though, it wasn't necessary. Sovereign had already firmly established their enigmatic and frightening nature.

I'll go you one further. I posit that the Reapers must remain enigmatic and irredeemable, to provide a moral baseline required to accept the full range of moral actions available to Shepard.

If you'll permit me to return to Iphigenia in Aulis, I'll point out that Agamemnon's decision of whether to sacrifice his cherised daughter to Artemis is most assuredly not made in a moral vacuum. His soldiers, hungry from their long layover on Aulis, have killed a deer belonging to the goddess. In response, Artemis has stilled the winds and trapped the fleet on its way to Troy. It is the threat of mutiny and massacre which give Agamemnon any reason at all to even consider the barbaric act, much less go through with it. (I will stress, of course, that Euripides' context was that of inevitable divine retribution - no raised fist at the heavens would be sufficient to stay Artemis' hand.)

In the same fashion, the Reapers cannot be sympathetic in any way, cannot be agreed with on any point, because then Shepard loses any moral recourse for her more desperate acts. However renegade one's Shepard might be, they are still placed in the role of the hero - without the Reapers' ultimate evil, could we possibly say that about CGG's Crow?

Modifié par delta_vee, 13 mai 2012 - 12:06 .


#1982
SkaldFish

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drayfish wrote...

@ Hawk227:

...Whuh?  Holy, Batman-infringement.  That is extraordinary.


Moriarty = adult child.

#1983
Hawk227

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delta_vee wrote...

 

Hawk227 wrote...

I have mixed feelings on elaborating on the motives of the Reapers.

[...]

That said, I think their existence could have been explained without "justification" for their actions in something akin to the Technological Singularity, and it would have played out fine. I imagine in such a scenario, the Reapers were born out of Technological Singularity a billion years ago, and in a move towards self preservation they harvest civilization every 50k years to increase their numbers and prevent any rival post singularity race from developing. For me, though, it wasn't necessary. Sovereign had already firmly established their enigmatic and frightening nature.

I'll go you one further. I posit that the Reapers must remain enigmatic and irredeemable, to provide a moral baseline required to accept the full range of moral actions available to Shepard.

If you'll permit me to return to Iphigenia in Aulis, I'll point out that Agamemnon's decision of whether to sacrifice his cherised daughter to Artemis is most assuredly not made in a moral vacuum. His soldiers, hungry from their long layover on Aulis, have killed a deer belonging to the goddess. In response, Artemis has stilled the winds and trapped the fleet on its way to Troy. It is the threat of mutiny and massacre which give Agamemnon any reason at all to even consider the barbaric act, much less go through with it. (I will stress, of course, that Euripides' context was that of inevitable divine retribution - no raised fist at the heavens would be sufficient to stay Artemis' hand.)

In the same fashion, the Reapers cannot be sympathetic in any way, cannot be agreed with on any point, because then Shepard loses any moral recourse for her more desperate acts. However renegade one's Shepard might be, they are still placed in the role of the hero - without the Reapers' ultimate evil, could we possibly say that about CGG's Crow?


A terrific point.

NorDee65 suggested in a post a couple pages ago that the implication of the Dark Energy plot was that the Collectors' actions in ME2 were a last ditch effort to create the galaxy-saving Human Reaper. Supported perhaps by Harbinger's quote at the end to the Collector General "We will find another way." If this were true, it arguably makes Shepard (every Shepard) the antagonist. Through his/her own shortsightedness and ignorance to the greater whims of the cosmos, s/he manages to undermine the last great hope of abating the Great Rip that tears apart the galaxy, and condemns the rest of galactic civilization (as opposed to just humans) to the onslaught of Reaper invasion. In such a dramatic scenario, we may not agree with their methods, but the ends justify the means, and they are doing what is necessary for all life. By interfering with the process, Shepard has become a fly in the ointment.

Modifié par Hawk227, 13 mai 2012 - 12:39 .


#1984
KitaSaturnyne

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@Hawk227

I agree. I absolutely pay a little more attention to drayfish's posts.

Also, Colin Moriarty needs to be fired for pulling such a 180 like that. It's flagrant, to say the least.

@drayfish

I can't remember which character from which story said this, but: "Abso-friggin'-lutely". Colin Moriarty reminds me more of certain political figures who have reared their ugly heads in the past year, especially since we here in Alberta just went through a rather revolutionary provincial election recently.

I like that you validated my "Colin Moriarty is ill-informed" remark, and you did a remarkable job articulating that point in ways that I couldn't. All I'd come up with is the aforementioned statement. Watching Colin Moriarty's videos was like listening to a 5-year-old debate the finer points of Chaucer. (PS - I hear the finer points of Chaucer are interesting, but I've not read any of his work.)

I find it hypocritical that he didn't mention Bethesda's change to the ending of Fallout 3 (even though, in my opinion, allowing for the Lone Wanderer to survive 'cheapened' their death), or that even games before that have changed their endings. Resident Evil: Code Veronica X, for example, included a slew of shots and dialogue that were not present in the original version of the game, many of which were contained in the ending scenes. Lastly, for him to say that Mass Effect 3 is establishing this precedent is extremely ignorant, especially for someone with such extensive access to the business and culture of video games as he.

So for me, his name will be synonymous with 'ignorant' and 'self righteous'.

PS - Is it punctuation before parentheses, or after? I can never keep that straight in my head.

#1985
delta_vee

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Hawk227 wrote...

NorDee65 suggested in a post a couple pages ago that the implication of the Dark Energy plot was that the Collectors' actions in ME2 were a last ditch effort to create the galaxy-saving Human Reaper. Supported perhaps by Harbinger's quote at the end to the Collector General "We will find another way." If this were true, it arguably makes Shepard (every Shepard) the antagonist. Through his/her own shortsightedness and ignorance to the greater whims of the cosmos, s/he manages to undermine the last great hope in abating the Great Rip that tears apart the galaxy, and condemns the rest of galactic civilization (as opposed to just humans) to the onslaught of Reaper invasion. In such a dramatic scenario, we may not agree with their methods, but the ends justify the means, and they are doing what is necessary for all life. By interfering with the process, Shepard has become a fly in the ointment.

With a different superstructure in the game, and with a less-flimsy justification (really, the Humans Are Special bit is old, and I'm not sure human jelly is special enough to save the galaxy by thinking really hard), perhaps.

But for that to work, I think we'd need some indication of that before the last ten minutes, anyways. A decision as terrible as siding with the Reapers requires buildup, not just within the story but within the player's mind, so they have time to come to terms with the very idea.

KitaSaturnyne wrote...

I can't remember which character from which story said this, but: "Abso-friggin'-lutely". Colin Moriarty reminds me more of certain political figures who have reared their ugly heads in the past year, especially since we here in Alberta just went through a rather revolutionary provincial election recently.

You're from Canuckian Siberia, too? Heh. I grew up in Edmonton. (And before someone makes the inevitable born-in-London crack, I was born in Ohio, thankyouverymuch.)

Also thank His Noodliness the Wildrose freaks didn't win.

PS - Is it punctuation before parentheses, or after? I can never keep that straight in my head.

Before parentheses if the entire sentence is enclosed, after if not.

Modifié par delta_vee, 13 mai 2012 - 12:40 .


#1986
delta_vee

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Also, nice to see you're still around, Skald. You should drop in more often.

#1987
KitaSaturnyne

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delta_vee wrote...

You're from Canuckian Siberia, too? Heh. I grew up in Edmonton. (And before someone makes the inevitable born-in-London crack, I was born in Ohio, thankyouverymuch.)

Also thank His Noodliness the Wildrose freaks didn't win.


You grew up in Edmonton? My condolences. :P Actually, I was born and raised in Calgary, so I guess we're both equally bad off.

The Wildrose are untested, but we're test driving them now, to see what
they're made of in the time between now and the next election. I
personally prefer Danielle Smith to the Tories treating me like I'm
their wallet. But that's a discussion for a completely different forum.

delta_vee wrote...

PS - Is it punctuation before parentheses, or after? I can never keep that straight in my head.

Before parentheses if the entire sentence is enclosed, after if not.

Noted. Thank you.

#1988
Hawk227

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delta_vee wrote...

Hawk227 wrote...

NorDee65 suggested in a post a couple pages ago that the implication of the Dark Energy plot was that the Collectors' actions in ME2 were a last ditch effort to create the galaxy-saving Human Reaper. Supported perhaps by Harbinger's quote at the end to the Collector General "We will find another way." If this were true, it arguably makes Shepard (every Shepard) the antagonist. Through his/her own shortsightedness and ignorance to the greater whims of the cosmos, s/he manages to undermine the last great hope in abating the Great Rip that tears apart the galaxy, and condemns the rest of galactic civilization (as opposed to just humans) to the onslaught of Reaper invasion. In such a dramatic scenario, we may not agree with their methods, but the ends justify the means, and they are doing what is necessary for all life. By interfering with the process, Shepard has become a fly in the ointment.


With a different superstructure in the game, and with a less-flimsy justification (really, the Humans Are Special bit is old, and I'm not sure human jelly is special enough to save the galaxy by thinking really hard), perhaps.

But for that to work, I think we'd need some indication of that before the last ten minutes, anyways. A decision as terrible as siding with the Reapers requires buildup, not just within the story but within the player's mind, so they have time to come to terms with the very idea.


This confuses me.

I was proposing another reason (in addition to yours) why something akin to the Dark Energy reveal couldn't work. Not only does it rob Shepard of the justification for his/her more desperate acts, it fundamentally changes the role of Shepard in the story. S/he was not the hero, striving against impossible odds, but rather a bumbling villain. By building up to the reveal with foreshadowing throughout only succeeds in making the ending a moment of redemption, rather than the realization of a goal set three years earlier.

delta_vee wrote...


Also, nice to see you're still around, Skald. You should drop in more often.


Seconded. Skald, Sable Phoenix, CG Girl, and Keyrlis have all been missed. The thread (however great) is lacking without them.

#1989
delta_vee

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Hawk227 wrote...

This confuses me.

I was proposing another reason (in addition to yours) why something akin to the Dark Energy reveal couldn't work. Not only does it rob Shepard of the justification for his/her more desperate acts, it fundamentally changes the role of Shepard in the story. S/he was not the hero, striving against impossible odds, but rather a bumbling villain. By building up to the reveal with foreshadowing throughout only succeeds in making the ending a moment of redemption, rather than the realization of a goal set three years earlier.

Sorry, I misread you as advocating for such a thing. Nevermind, then.

I do think it would be an interesting thing for some game to attempt, though - beginning the game as the ostensible hero and slowly learning of your own villainy. Prototype had something in that vein, but the reveal of Alex Mercer's true nature applied only to events before the player picks up the controller, not during.

#1990
drayfish

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delta_vee wrote...
 
@drayfish:

Please for the love of all gods stop apologizing. 'Twas an excellent rant, well read.

Thank you, delta_vee, that's very kind of you, and much appreciated.
 
 
Perhaps you're right. Perhaps it is time to put the apologies aside. Time for me to get real. Time to let loose my pure, unfiltered, unstoppered opinion; to drop the pretence and get all up in everyone's grill with some unabashed knowledge. No restraint, no apologies, no take-backsies – controversial, sure, but true. So here it comes, and if people can't 'handle it', then maybe it's time for them to just step off and let the grown-ups carry on while they cry on home to their mummies:
 
I (that's right: me) like (yeah, I said it: like!) my space fish. You know, the little space fish? How they swim. All swimmy and fishy. I like them. 
 
So I bought them the filter.
 
Deal with it.
 
 
p.s. – sorry.
 
p.p.s – sorry about the 'sorry'.

Modifié par drayfish, 13 mai 2012 - 02:23 .


#1991
edisnooM

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drayfish wrote...

delta_vee wrote...
 
@drayfish:

Please for the love of all gods stop apologizing. 'Twas an excellent rant, well read.

Thank you, delta_vee, that's very kind of you, and much appreciated.
 
 
Perhaps you're right. Perhaps it is time to put the apologies aside. Time for me to get real. Time to let loose my pure, unfiltered, unstoppered opinion; to drop the pretence and get all up in everyone's grill with some unabashed knowledge. No restraint, no apologies, no take-backsies – controversial, sure, but true. So here it comes, and if people can't 'handle it', then maybe it's time for them to just step off and let the grown-ups carry on while they cry on home to their mummies:
 
I (that's right: me) like (yeah, I said it: like!) my space fish. You know, the little space fish? How they swim. All swimmy and fishy. I like them. 
 
So I bought them the filter.
 
Deal with it.
 
 
p.s. – sorry.
 
p.p.s – sorry about the 'sorry'.



Posted Image


:D

P.S. Keep up the posts.

Modifié par edisnooM, 13 mai 2012 - 02:29 .


#1992
MrAtomica

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delta_vee wrote...

I'll go you one further. I posit that the Reapers must remain enigmatic and irredeemable, to provide a moral baseline required to accept the full range of moral actions available to Shepard.

If you'll permit me to return to Iphigenia in Aulis, I'll point out that Agamemnon's decision of whether to sacrifice his cherised daughter to Artemis is most assuredly not made in a moral vacuum. His soldiers, hungry from their long layover on Aulis, have killed a deer belonging to the goddess. In response, Artemis has stilled the winds and trapped the fleet on its way to Troy. It is the threat of mutiny and massacre which give Agamemnon any reason at all to even consider the barbaric act, much less go through with it. (I will stress, of course, that Euripides' context was that of inevitable divine retribution - no raised fist at the heavens would be sufficient to stay Artemis' hand.)

In the same fashion, the Reapers cannot be sympathetic in any way, cannot be agreed with on any point, because then Shepard loses any moral recourse for her more desperate acts. However renegade one's Shepard might be, they are still placed in the role of the hero - without the Reapers' ultimate evil, could we possibly say that about CGG's Crow?


This right here is a sentiment that I have been reiterating on this board for some time now.

I recently got engaged in a somewhat heated argument in one of The Razman's threads (if that name is familiar to you, I sincerely apoligize for putting the thought of him/her in your head). During said argument, I brought up a point that has been bothering me; namely, I referenced the conversation which Shepard has with Sovereign in Saren's Virmire base in Mass Effect 1.

One of Sovereign's early statements is that "You cannot even begin to comprehend the meaning of our existence." This particular notion, that we cannot possibly grasp the purpose of the Reapers (nor resist them, for that matter), is a crucial piece of their success as villains. Since they are presented as a non-human force of apocalyptic machine-"gods" bent on the annihilation of life (also a part of Sovereign's speech), this type of ambiguity was totally appropriate; indeed, as you so astutely posited, it is the driving force behind Shepard's moral actions.

Obviously, Shepard is human. Again, the Reapers are not. They are also quite convinced (or are being used by the Catalyst to manipulate us into believeing) that their motives are far above our level of comprehension. Ergo, to give them any overarching purpose whatsoever would violate their own words. Bioware, as a company comprised of human beings, is simply incapable of producing a motive "beyond our comprehension".  For that to be possible, their writers would have to be omniscient.

Branching off from this point, there is a possible solution to the illogical conundrum that the content of the endings present.

We are now aware that the Reapers are not acting of their own free-will. If the Catalyst is to be believed, they have never been independent prior to the current cycle, either. For this reason, we can safely infer that everything dealing we have had with the Reapers since the beginning of the trilogy has been an extension of the Catalyst's voice/will. That includes the interactions with Sovereign and Harbinger. By that token, he is the one who put forward the notion that "we are beyond your comprehension".

Since I have pointed out that the current explanation for the Reapers' actions could hardly be construed as "beyond" any of us, this leaves a single possibility; the Catalyst is lying to us.

Precisely where and when he is lying to us is another matter, but it is impossible for him not to have done so at some point. I have broken down the two scenes where his conflicting statements occur:
  • The Citadel - When speaking to the physical representation of the Catalyst (Why oh why did it have to be a totally forgettable child, of all things? Couldn't one of our dead friends have better served the purpose here?), he tells us that the purpose of the Reapers is to "protect" organic life from a synthetic singularity. By eliminating us before we eliminate ourselves, he is truly defending our continued existence. All other arguments aside, the fact that he uses this reasoning could be a ruse. If he were lying here, instead of on Virmire, then the claim that the Reapers are "transcendent" is still valid. This reaches the same end as above, just by a different way.
  • Virmire - Speaking through Sovereign, the Catalyst wildly embellished the true power of the Reapers. His claims of total superiority of strength and intellect were false, and only meant to frighten and break the will of his organic enemies. As Shepard is the avatar of the player, "Sovereign's" lofty message coerces us into perceiving his words as truth as well. We spend the rest of the trilogy, till the end of Mass Effect 3, believing the Reapers to be exactly what Sovereign described. Thus, the unremarkable motive behind the Reapers is justified. Since they were never truly as powerful as we thought, it's actually permissible for them to be underwhelming.
Furthermore, he could be lying on both occasions. Any number of the conversations Shepard has with Reapers throughout the series could be positively riddled with outright falsehoods. The motive behind this is obvious - the Catalyst wishes to confuse Shepard, intimidate him with grandiose claims of godhood, while simultaneously gnawing at his own moral superiority through a legtimizing of the Reaper's means by inventing a supposedly inevitable end, an end which only he and his pawns can "save" us from.
I suppose, ultimately, I choose to interpret the Catalyst as an almost human antagonist. Since it cannot be possible for Bioware to invent a reason that is truly beyond human understanding, perceiving the villain as unreliable is the way by which I explain the current debacle. I do not expect that my view is in line with Bioware's, but I feel it would be more fitting than trying to handwave the current literal perception of the Catalyst character. There really isn't any satisfactory way to "clarify" the endings if the Catalyst is presented as totally credible, while still maintaining his current goal.

Even if my reasnoning is accepted by all of you, it still leaves the gaping hole of Shepard's blind acceptance behind. This is my largest gripe with the endings as they stand. Shepard, my Shepard, would never in a million years buy into the enemy's justifications without first being presented with overwhelming evidence to support any claims made. Since the Catalyst offers us nothing to substantiate his assertions of an inescapable "Organo-Synthetic Conflict" and "Order vs. Chaos", Shepard should most certainly not have acted in such a laughably pathetic manner. Yet, he does. The player is forced to watch their avatar falter and bluster in the worst possible way. We are forced to listen to utterly moronic lines like "So the Illusive Man was right after all?". No, he was not "right". I just shot him in the head not more than a few minutes ago, after completely and utterly rejecting his tainted notion of Control. Have ye gone daft, my devilishly handsome commander?

I sincerely wish that they had listened to people like you, delta, before they wrote the ending to this game. In fact, they should have known all of this themselves. There was never any need to explain the Reapers to me, or to any of us. It was always enough to know that they were bent on our destruction. They were evil, once upon a time. Unfortunately, true evil cannot be justified. When Bioware did exactly that, the Reapers could no longer be labeled as such. Where, then, lies the heroism of our hero? Is he right to Destroy them (and EDI and the Geth, if we trust the Catalyst), punishing the tools for the sins of the master? Is he right to Control them, perpetuating their eternal enslavement for his own selfish aims? Is he right to Merge with them, essentially accomplishing the same ultimate end that Saren preached in the first game, without any input from the people of the galaxy he represents?

Some in the community might accept Bioware's philosophy behind the endings. "Sure, they wish to destroy us", these individuals admit, "but they are also our salvation." Perhaps. However, in light of the lack of evidence, and in light of all that we accompished regarding the evolution of synthetic life throughout the series, I care little for any attempt at justification. As living beings - free living beings, in both mind and body - we value our right to live. We
value it so highly that we are willing to we are willing to defy the "gods" themselves to preserve it. History has shown that some of us are even willing to give up our own lives for the sake of others. This is our choice. We choose to live. For the love of all that is holy, do not force me to lie down and die without cause, on the whim of my mortal foe. If I am to accept my demise, there must be something tangible gained. Do not conclude my story with the potential for my actions to be seen as more monstrous than the enemy I am fighting. Failing that, do not expect me to shower such a travesty with praise. I am Commander Shepard. I refuse to die with a whimper. My final words are not "I don't know..."

______________________________________________________________________________________

That's it, that's all I've got for now. delta_vee, your erudition inspires me to contribute what I can to this discussion. Same goes for everyone else taking part in this thread. I hope that what I have to say is worthwhile.

Also, sorry for the insertion of self into the character of Shepard. I do that a lot. To me, that's easily the most memorable attribute of the Mass Effect universe - the ability to lose myself in a role so completely that I begin to speak as though I am him. Or maybe that's just a symptom of my dashing good looks and roguish charm. Yeah, that must be it. :P

Edit: One last thing. I loved the conversation with Sovereign on Virmire. It was cheesy and less than original, certainly, but something about the presentation of it really resonated with me. Must have been the voice. This made me all the angrier when the Catalyst came and utterly negated everything that Soevereign had said. In fact, the Catalyst essentially negates Sovereign altogether. That just feels....wrong....somehow. As though a worthy rival were simply cut from the narrative, all traces of it wiped clean. There was a palpable sense of awe at the character of Sovereign. That probably sounds bizarre, considering his sentiments on the extermination of life, but he was a villain that worked. Unlike the Catalyst (Starbrat, Godchild, what have you), I didn't feel an overwhelming urge to throttle Sovereign upon hearing him speak. He was a nemesis that I could look forward to "crossing swords with", as the saying goes. I didn't feel wrong in destroying him at the end of the game, not until the end of this installment. Now, though, I realize that he never really had any say in the matter. Like me, he was just dancing to the tune of the Catalyst's fiddle. Makes you wonder what he could have been, had he been able to exercise his own judgement.

Not sure what that had to do with anything of any importance... just me having my feelsbadman.jpg moment, I guess. :?

Modifié par MrAtomica, 13 mai 2012 - 02:47 .


#1993
KitaSaturnyne

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drayfish wrote...
 
I (that's right: me) like (yeah, I said it: like!) my space fish. You know, the little space fish? How they swim. All swimmy and fishy. I like them. 
 
So I bought them the filter.
 
Deal with it.
 
 
p.s. – sorry.
 
p.p.s – sorry about the 'sorry'.

I sure think you mean the feeder.

Was I the only one bothered by the jelly fish swimming through the back wall of the aquarium?

#1994
KitaSaturnyne

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MrAtomica wrote...

I sincerely wish that they had listened to people like you, delta,
before they wrote the ending to this game. In fact, they should have
known all of this themselves. There was never any need to explain the
Reapers to me, or to any of us. It was always enough to know that they
were bent on our destruction. They were evil, once upon a time.
Unfortunately, true evil cannot be justified. When Bioware did exactly
that, the Reapers could no longer be labeled as such. Where, then, lies
the heroism of our hero? Is he right to Destroy them (and EDI and the
Geth, if we trust the Catalyst), punishing the tools for the sins of the
master? Is he right to Control them, perpetuating their eternal
enslavement for his own selfish aims? Is he right to Merge with them,
essentially accomplishing the same ultimate end that Saren preached in
the first game, without any input from the people of the galaxy he
represents?


First MrAtomica, welcome to the thread.

Second, spectacularly said. Why should the Reapers suffer for their master's decisions? For that matter, why can't we destroy the Catalyst is a climactic duel? Here we are, talking to King Reaper, and we're not supposed to think to open fire on him?

That said, it seems many people opened fire on him regardless.

#1995
MrAtomica

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KitaSaturnyne wrote...

First MrAtomica, welcome to the thread.

Second, spectacularly said. Why should the Reapers suffer for their master's decisions? For that matter, why can't we destroy the Catalyst is a climactic duel? Here we are, talking to King Reaper, and we're not supposed to think to open fire on him?

That said, it seems many people opened fire on him regardless.


Thanks for the hospitality!

As for opening fire on him, I shamelessly admit my guilt. In fact, that was the first thing I did after regaining control of Shepard. I must have emptied a good 20-30 rounds into his oh-so-smug face. Sadly, it would appear that Liara loaned him some of her notorious plot armor. Either that, or he's the second coming of Christ. Given the religious allegory present, that is a firghteningly possible "clarification"...

Here's an even better question: why did the game not simply end with the death of Anderson? That was one of the most emotionally powerful moments in the game (even more powerful if you've seen heard the extended version of it), and all its impact was sucked out by that damnable elevator appearing out of nowhere.

Modifié par MrAtomica, 13 mai 2012 - 02:57 .


#1996
edisnooM

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MrAtomica wrote...

KitaSaturnyne wrote...

First MrAtomica, welcome to the thread.

Second, spectacularly said. Why should the Reapers suffer for their master's decisions? For that matter, why can't we destroy the Catalyst is a climactic duel? Here we are, talking to King Reaper, and we're not supposed to think to open fire on him?

That said, it seems many people opened fire on him regardless.


Thanks for the hospitality!

As for opening fire on him, I shamelessly admit my guilt. In fact, that was the first thing I did after regaining control of Shepard. I must have emptied a good 20-30 rounds into his oh-so-smug face. Sadly, it would appear that Liara loaned him some of her notorious plot armor. Either that, or he's the second coming of Christ. Given the religious allegory present, that is a firghteningly possible "clarification"...

Here's an even better question: why did the game not simply end with the death of Anderson? That was one of the most emotionally powerful moments in the game (even more powerful if you've seen heard the extended version of it), and all its impact was sucked out by that damnable elevator appearing out of nowhere.


First excellent previous post, very well said.

Second I have asked myself that same question many times. In fact I wrote a bit of a rant about it a few days ago to get it out of my system. :unsure:

It's so incredibly frustrating how close it came to being if not great at least good. But no, Willy Wonka's Glass Elevator had to take us up to see the Catalyst.

Ugh, now I think I'll go kill some Banshees in multiplayer to get rid of my frustration.

Modifié par edisnooM, 13 mai 2012 - 03:06 .


#1997
KitaSaturnyne

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edisnooM wrote...

First excellent previous post, very well said.

Second I have asked myself that same question many times. In fact I wrote a bit of a rant about it a few days ago to get it out of my system. :unsure:

It's so incredibly frustrating how close it came to being if not great at least good. But no, Willy Wonka's Glass Elevator had to take us up to see the Catalyst.

Ugh, now I think I'll go kill some Banshees in multiplayer to get rid of my frustration.

Consider yourself lucky, Mani Mani. No one will let me play with them because I'm level 1 and they're all level 375.

I didn't buy ME3 for the multiplayer, but I figured I'd give it a try. No luck after 10 straight rooms kicking me out for being too low level, so I've given up on it altogether.

Doesn't the Shepard breath scene open a whole new can of worms in relation to the ending/ overall narrative/ sacrifice, etc.?

#1998
Hawk227

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MrAtomica wrote...

Even if my reasnoning is accepted by all of you, it still leaves the gaping hole of Shepard's blind acceptance behind. This is my largest gripe with the endings as they stand. Shepard, my Shepard, would never in a million years buy into the enemy's justifications without first being presented with overwhelming evidence to support any claims made. Since the Catalyst offers us nothing to substantiate his assertions of an inescapable "Organo-Synthetic Conflict" and "Order vs. Chaos", Shepard should most certainly not have acted in such a laughably pathetic manner. Yet, he does. The player is forced to watch their avatar falter and bluster in the worst possible way. We are forced to listen to utterly moronic lines like "So the Illusive Man was right after all?". No, he was not "right". I just shot him in the head not more than a few minutes ago, after completely and utterly rejecting his tainted notion of Control. Have ye gone daft, my devilishly handsome commander?


There is actually a line, in game, where Shepard essentially refutes the Catalyst. The Paragon response to the Salarian Dalatrass's offer is roughly:

"You can't condemn an entire species to extinction for something it might do."

This is fundamentally the same as the situation with the Catalyst. The stakes are higher, but he sees fit to condemn all races to extinction for what they might do. Shepard has already dismissed this idea, yet against the Catalyst he musters only "I think we'd rather keep our own form". Think? What. The. F***.

Edit: One last thing. I loved the conversation with Sovereign on Virmire. It was cheesy and less than original, certainly, but something about the presentation of it really resonated with me. Must have been the voice. This made me all the angrier when the Catalyst came and utterly negated everything that Soevereign had said. In fact, the Catalyst essentially negates Sovereign altogether. That just feels....wrong....somehow. As though a worthy rival were simply cut from the narrative, all traces of it wiped clean. There was a palpable sense of awe at the character of Sovereign. That probably sounds bizarre, considering his sentiments on the extermination of life, but he was a villain that worked. Unlike the Catalyst (Starbrat, Godchild, what have you), I didn't feel an overwhelming urge to throttle Sovereign upon hearing him speak. He was a nemesis that I could look forward to "crossing swords with", as the saying goes. I didn't feel wrong in destroying him at the end of the game, not until the end of this installment. Now, though, I realize that he never really had any say in the matter. Like me, he was just dancing to the tune of the Catalyst's fiddle. Makes you wonder what he could have been, had he been able to exercise his own judgement.

Not sure what that had to do with anything of any importance... just me having my feelsbadman.jpg moment, I guess. :?


I agree completely. I loved that conversation. I loved Sovereign as a villain. I loved Harbinger as the heir to sovereigns throne as head villain (THIS HURTS YOU). Then the Catalyst goes and negates all of it.

"Oh Sovereign? Yeah, he was my solution. I programmed him to save organic life from itself. Stupid Organics, always trying to obliterate itself. It's a shame you killed him, he was serving a function vital to the continuance of organic life. You're just a nuisance. Now, thanks to you we need a new solution. So what's it going to be? Red, Green, or Blue?" :pinched:

Modifié par Hawk227, 13 mai 2012 - 03:23 .


#1999
MrFob

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drayfish wrote...
*snip*

Moriarty's position seems particularly untenable however, since it was the creators of the work themselves (whether prompted or not) who declared that they would like to better elucidate their text – presumably to help audience members (I must say, like myself) who felt the ending was wholly jarring and inconsistent. And surely that validates rather than undermines the artist's prerogative? In theory at least, Bioware is ensuring that they articulate their intended message to their audience in the most accurate manner possible, conceding that (at best) the execution was flawed, and that widespread misinterpretation was not part of their vision.

And this is the crux of it in my opinion. I have said it in multiple threads when the discussion about fan entitlement was hottest. It's not us, the fans, who want to dictate an ending to BioWare. It's us who express our discontent and disappointment with the current one (and we can give - and have given - whole volumes full of personal and rational reasons to substantiate our opinion). We fully acknowledged that it was BioWare's prerogative to go out and call us down. Something myself as well as many others have asked for long before the petitions and call for a new ending was that the writers would come out and explain and discuss their thought on the ending - to give us context. However that never happened. Even when we asked for a new/improved ending, we never even suggested to take ownership of it or dictate its content. We wanted BioWares vision, it was rather that the endings as they are didn't fell like a BW product at all.
In the end, BioWare themselves came out and announced the EC. That can only leave one reasonable interpretation in my mind: They themselves were not happy with the ending. Maybe they were happy with the overall premise of it (as they keep assuring us) but at least they seem to have doubts about the implementation of their ideas. So in the end, the audience and the creators seem in accordance rather then at this impasse the games media liked to point out to us.
Now, how things play out once the EC comes around, no one can say at the moment. If I am still unhappy, I'll let them know again.

But I have faith, because – at the risk of sounding far too gooey – my sole comfort throughout this period has been all of you, here in this conversation. Ultimately, where it not for you all, and the highly cathartic sharing and discussion that this forum thread has provided me (and I hope others), I'm not sure I would have been able to do anything with my disappointment besides ulcerate in fury.  I seem to recall saying something earlier about tiny fists shaking with nerd rage – well that would still be me, still shivering in frustrated confusion. Again, if nothing else, this whole mess has proved that there are places to go for intelligent, reasoned, considerate discussion on the videogame medium as a valid art form – apparently it just might not be anywhere around Colin Moriarty.
 
And for that I am extremely grateful.


I am just quoting this for the ultimate truth! I don't know what I'd have done after the endings without the forums. This thread as well as others are the only reason we can put a positive spin on this disaster. I am lurking a lot and only chiming in sporadically but nonetheless, you guys are all awesome and reading these posts (in this one as well as other threads) keeps brightening the day. (Sorry to indulge in histrionics here but I am listening to "stand strong, stand together" from the ME3 OST as I write this and I can't help myself. :))

#2000
KitaSaturnyne

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Hawk227 wrote...

I agree completely. I loved that conversation. I loved Sovereign as a villain. I loved Harbinger as the heir to sovereigns throne as head villain (THIS HURTS YOU). Then the Catalyst goes and negates all of it.

"Oh Sovereign? Yeah, he was my solution. I programmed him to save organic life from itself. Stupid Organics, always trying to obliterate itself. It's a shame you killed him, he was serving a function vital to the continuance of organic life. You're just a nuisance. Now, thanks to you we need a new solution. So what's it going to be? Red, Green, or Blue?"


Harbinger: THIS HURTS YOU.
Wife: That's it. Get off me.