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"All Were Thematically Revolting". My Lit Professor's take on the Endings. (UPDATED)


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#2251
CulturalGeekGirl

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I'm not sure whether this thread is helping me or hindering me anymore. For a while I was sort of over it, mostly reading this thread but not posting anymore, but I've had... a bit of a relapse. I don't think it's going to be fatal. I think I'm going to be OK.

This story by John Hodgman about trying to cope with the Phantom Menace is an almost painfully accurate description of my own current relationship with Mass Effect. I couldn't stop thinking about it if I wanted to.

It's funny, I mentioned ME3 to my one coworker who completely agrees with me and he just got a look of instant sadness. "Don't talk to me about Mass Effect," he said. That's the other way to do it. But I can't. I've got the ADD brain and the writer brain, and neither of them ever shut up.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 16 mai 2012 - 08:17 .


#2252
MrFob

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Hmmm, to choose synthesis. I can see the next game on the horizon: Mass Effect: Organic ®evolution, where we experience a galactic society buckling under the social pressure that erupts from the possibility to get synthesized. While philosophers and politicians debate the issue, the rage of the more radical pure organics, disadvantaged and no longer competitive on the job market and in social groups translates into violence and terrorism, clamped down hard by outdated governments trying to maintain control in a semi-apocalyptic post-reaper galaxy.
Well, at least no one could say "I never asked for this."

Modifié par MrFob, 16 mai 2012 - 08:23 .


#2253
CulturalGeekGirl

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"I very explicitly asked for this. I had to fill out like, three forms."

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 16 mai 2012 - 08:25 .


#2254
drayfish

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Okay guys, I'm back with a couple more cases and a whole thing of dips. They were out of jerky so I just got a bag of – wait. What's going on? Why's everyone so glum? Is that My Chemical Romance playing on the stereo? 
 
...You weren't talking about Indoctrination Theory, were you? What did I say about that? What did I say?
 
Well, actually I guess I said that it would be awesome. I believe I said something along the lines of it heralding in a new age of artistic expression that would judo-chop Picasso, give James Joyce an atomic wedgie, and tell Orson Welles to stop hitting himself, stop hitting himself...  Because that's how I roll – what with the excessive hyperbolic diatribes. But, as you have all masterfully pointed out, it seems that at present there will be problems in any version of this ending without some kind of miraculous rewrite. In any instance of the game as-is, we are backed into the corner of having to commit a heinous act: obliteration, domination, eugenic purging. 
 
I'm aware of the very real danger of this thread being sidetracked by this discussion, so I'll be (my version of) brief and say that for the time being, I personally have to cling to the (admittedly near atomically-downscaled) hope that Bioware's plan was always to push us into an extreme act, an act for which we could never forgive ourselves, in order to (clumsily) force a kind of empathetic bond with the major villains of the work. In such a case the question would become how much could you/would you, Shepard, be willing to sacrifice to save the Universe – as a prelude to the real conclusion, waking the character from whatever choice was made in DLC and stomping some Reaper ass. Still awkward, still vile, still an utterly unjust violation of the player's agency, but one that intentionally muddies the stark moral delineation between the potential for action of this universe's heroes and 'villains', forcing a hypothetical moral conundrum upon the player that will reverberate even after the uplifting conclusion... (he said, now just shamelessly fantasising with no basis in reality whatsoever). Of course, this presupposes that the Reapers are little more than the rocks upon which our characters dash themselves, and Shepard is compelled to see the choice that confronted all those who pursued these creatures before him/her, hoping to control or thwart them.
 
I guess for me, the Indoctrination Theory is like a scratch on the roof my mouth that I cannot help but keep touching with my tongue. It lingers because although I can ultimately dismiss almost everything else that supports Indoctrination theory under the shortcomings of apathy, rushed design, or happenstance, one doubt remains. Sure, no one looks at the creepy kid as he scrambles onto the ship; fine, because who's looking anywhere but at the giant mutant insect blowing civilisation into powder? Sure, there is absolutely no way that Anderson could have gotten in front of me with pristine clothes and no visible wounds; but he said the walls were moving around and maybe the devs. (somehow) didn't catch that logistical speed bump. And yes, even those goddamn dreams – intrusions into my Shepard's semi-cipher identity that really stick in my craw (it's a thing; a craw can be a thing!); if I squint a little in my mind's eye I can finally dismiss them as purely clumsy, woefully mistimed swings at emotional engagement.
 
But – much as Hawk227 said earlier – that breath scene. Someone has to explain that Shepard breath scene. I have to have it explained. Need it explained: justified, contextualised, even deleted as a fault – anything.  But something needs to be done, because at the moment, from whatever angle I read it, it seems to be saying to the audience: 'Oh, and by the way, gentle player: F**k you. 
 
'...No really. You, drayfish. You. F**k you.'
 
Because that scene has no merit whatsoever besides intentionally, openly trolling the audience. 
 
They know that we're not infants – simply shaking a set of keys in front of our eyes will not delight us to forget everything else we've seen. They may not have known that a healthy portion of the fans would react as vehemently to the principles of the endings.  They may not have foreseen that everyone would (I think entirely justifiably) interpret the Relays exploding as the ruination of all life (although when you pull out to a universe-sized wide-shot that reveals tsunamis of devastation rippling into countless stratospheres, I'm not sure what else they were expecting). But that breath scene is an addition (needless at best) to this salad of gormless iconography. And because it goes nowhere, asking its viewer to believe that Shepard not only survived the Reaper destruct code that was meant to kill him/her, but lived through the structurally devastating Crucible explosion; and then lived through re-entry into Earth's now blighted atmosphere, the premise goes so far beyond the realm of the fantastical that it would be like the creators sat down with a game of Mad-Libs to devise the ending plot:
 
'I was walking through  LONDON  when I found a  GIANT LAZER  that sent me to  SPACE . It was here that I met  CREEPY GHOST  who made me feel  EXISTENTIAL NIHILISTIC ANGST  until I  BLEW UP  the  UNIVERSE  and went home for more  DLC .'
 
If the creators of this franchise really have that little respect for their audience then there is little left to say at all. If the Extended Cut emerges and indeed the breath scene has no relevance except to continue to tantalise with utterly fruitless speculation, then I fear that my investment in this franchise will be truly eroded through – and I desperately do not want that to be so – because it really will mean that a prank was more important to the creators of this universe than thematic cohesion and narrative sense.
 
...Even as I type this, however, I can acknowledge with sorrow that I am in the bargaining stages of having my hopes dashed. It's Christmas Eve, I'm standing in my pyjamas, a teddy bear tucked under one arm on the staircase as I watch my parents stuffing the stockings with gifts from a trash bag, both hushing each other in case they wake me. 'But – But there is still a Santa, right?' I'm murmuring into the dark.
 
Come on, Bioware. Let there be some kind of impossibly fortuitous path through the murky narrative haze. Give me back Santa. You have no idea how much I still want to believe.
 
 
p.s. – I've hated being gone the past few days – of course, life intrudes – but I have delighted in catching up on the (I'm thrilled to see many) pages of wondrous insight. Welcome to some new voices including (but never in any way limited to) Fapmaster5000 and sH0tgUn jUliA. I am – as I always am when returning to this marvellous thread – stunned by the clarity, the insight, the generosity of spirit that dominates throughout. Even when things get heated, or when sorrow threatens to overwhelm, I feel that there is foremost a respect and an affection for each other's points of view that carries us through.
 
And like frypan, I too hope that Hawk227 is still with us. Hawk227 your insight has been invaluable (and I cannot tell you the number of your posts I have wanted to call out as I've read my way up to date). Indeed, the most frustrating part about being kept away from the interwebnets for the past few days is now being unable to speak to all of the fantastic discourse that has already passed me by. 

Modifié par drayfish, 16 mai 2012 - 01:58 .


#2255
3DandBeyond

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MrFob wrote...

Hmmm, to choose synthesis. I can see the next game on the horizon: Mass Effect: Organic ®evolution, where we experience a galactic society buckling under the social pressure that erupts from the possibility to get synthesized. While philosophers and politicians debate the issue, the rage of the more radical pure organics, disadvantaged and no longer competitive on the job market and in social groups translates into violence and terrorism, clamped down hard by outdated governments trying to maintain control in a semi-apocalyptic post-reaper galaxy.
Well, at least no one could say "I never asked for this."


To revisit the abhorrent idea of synthesis one only has to look to 2 really telling pieces within ME2.  One is Project Overlord where the Rogue VI is really discovered to be some warped plan to try and join the consciousness of an Autistic savant with geth programming/synthetics.  Shepard is horrified by this.

The other example (and there really are many throughout these games) is given when Mordin discovers the true nature of the Collectors.  After his Loyalty mission, he discusses his findings. They are of course re-purposed Protheans, but it's worse.  Shepard asks if they can be treated and fixed and Mordin says it's not possible, that everything's been replaced with tech-their souls had been replaced by tech.  He goes on to say what is wrong with that and it really informs you the player or you as Shepard.  There's so much wrong with Synthesis that it's hard to find any positive about it.  Mordin states that it removes adversity as a driving force for advancement.  The wheel and fire and so on, all created due to adversity and the need to do better, be better.

He also says that along with it diminishing the uniqueness of the individual, it can do other damage, much like the too soon advancement of the Krogan.  He says something like it's like giving a child a nuke.  I don't remember the exact statement here.  But suffice to say, Shepard would form his/her own conclusion, but there was a certain respect s/he had for Mordin-he had learned a lot about what changing the nature of a race could do, the damage and all.  He also specifically states many times that what happened with the Krogan was something that was done at first without a lot of thinking (their uplifting), but that later on every response was done for rational reasons, adjusted as things changed.  He'd never see wholesale synthesizing of all organic life, something that is immutable as a solution.  So, neither would Shepard.

All of this and any decision to pick one of the 3 choices is predicated upon Shepard being able to believe the glow boy  in the first place.  This kid has been controlling and sending the reapers to repeatedly kill advanced organics in the galaxy, trillions upon trillions of lives.  Many hundreds of thousands of humans alone have been turned into organic goo or made into husks.  All at the direction of this kid who now wants to be best buds.  Ok, uh, no.  Not if I lived to be a million years old and this kid cleaned my house, paid my bills, paid the student loans back for my niece and nephews and promised me good health and wealth beyond my wildest dreams.  Unh, unh.

#2256
delta_vee

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Ladies, gentlemen, asari, we have become Breatharians: we subsist on naught but a gasp of air.

This liminal space we're trapped in is infuriating. We can't let go; the Extended Cut is coming (sometime, eventually) with its promise of addendum and faint possibility of revision, and that thrice-damned breath scene prevents us from regarding the work as the closed text it was claimed to be. The conclusion we have is so muddled and disjointed, so resistant to coherent analysis, that we cannot find our way through it without headcanon and rank speculations. We can't even fully discuss the implications of either of the two primary readings due to the risk of endless recursion and fruitless loops of argument. We have no way out but waiting, no way through but discarding it for the nonsense it ultimately appears to be. Those of us here are obviously still attached enough to the work that we cannot merely pick up and move on. I can only hope Bioware can give us something one way or the other, either to bask in glory or finally be done with it.

I sincerely hope other developers learn the many, many lessons this debacle provides. And if anyone else tries something along the lines of IT, dear gods please make sure the real conclusion is on the bloody disc beforehand.

PS: drayfish, did you pick up that whiskey for me?

#2257
KitaSaturnyne

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I wonder if in the future, Mass Effect will be remembered as being the breaking point, the work that caused video games and their narratives to change for the better. A catalyst, if you will. (Please don't hit me)

Of course, for that to happen, Mass Effect 3's ending needs to be changed in a massive (again with the puns) way, which is unlikely given the timeframe they have to work on it.

In any case, if I haven't said it before - yes, the three final choices stink. The part that bothers me the most about it though, which is strange I guess, is that when Shepard is firing at the destroy tube, he/ she/ it walks TOWARDS the explodeness. So what, the ReaperBeam wasn't enough? You can't just stand back and shoot the damn thing? Hell, shoot the tube then jump into the synthesis beam if you really want to mess things up.

PS - Welcome back, drayfish. You've been missed.

Modifié par KitaSaturnyne, 16 mai 2012 - 05:51 .


#2258
3DandBeyond

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KitaSaturnyne wrote...

I wonder if in the future, Mass Effect will be remembered as being the breaking point, the work that caused video games and their narratives to change for the better. A catalyst, if you will. (Please don't hit me)

Of course, for that to happen, Mass Effect 3's ending needs to be changed in a massive (again with the puns) way, which is unlikely given the timeframe they have to work on it.

In any case, if I haven't said it before - yes, the three final choices stink. The part that bothers me the most about it though, which is strange I guess, is that when Shepard is firing at the destroy tube, he/ she/ it walks TOWARDS the explodeness. So what, the ReaperBeam wasn't enough? You can't just stand back and shoot the damn thing? Hell, shoot the tube then jump into the synthesis beam if you really want to mess things up.

PS - Welcome back, drayfish. You've been missed.


Ha ha I love this.  Shepard can't stand back and shoot at it because just like in real life the little targeting square isn't there until Shepard gets close enough to be caught in the explosion.  It's always important to walk quickly towards things that blow up when you shoot them, didn't you know that.

I sincerely hope this will be the force for change.  It's been a steady decline in recent years and it's accelerating.  Players are beta testers, are now seen as mere cash cows with micro-transactions.  We're given short SP games in order to support MP for DLC.  We've lost our voice, our consumerist voice.  We saw the emperor was shedding his clothes and basically helped him strip naked.  And then we sat back and stared.  The gaming industry amazes me.  The price of DVDs dropped significantly to where they are now affordable or rentable or videos are streamable, but through it all games just keep at an amazingly similar set price or they creep up with sometimes truly awful collector's edition content.  Wow, I got the green spacesuit with red arrows on it for only $30 more!

I hope this will usher in some change, but honestly given the lovely responses and the perpetuated belief that we, the unhappy are just whiners and self-entitled demanding something for nothing, I have my doubts.  We've been told we're ignorant because we don't "get" true artistic vision and need clarity.  Someone is in denial and I think I know who.

#2259
CulturalGeekGirl

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The main line of thought for destroy seems to be "well, if they knew what was at stake, of course they'd willingly sacrifice themselves... so I can accept having to make that call for them." This isn't just what the reapers want, it's what the reapers are. They are machines built to do one thing and one thing only: kill off entire races for a greater good without telling them about the situation or considering the other options.

Now, sure, a similar argument can be made for the other two choices. We've heard them all before. This is the problem: all three choices can easily be interpreted in a way that suggests you're carrying on the Reaper's legacy, becoming the exact variety of monster they are.

In a vaccum, I like the idea of eventual trashumanism. Ghost in the shell is pretty good, after all. But I'm also open to the concept that overreliance on tech erodes the soul, a la Shadowrun (you should have seen my nerd rage when I learned that it was now beneficial for Adepts to get .9 essence worth of cyber or bioware. I literally lost several nights of sleep over it.) Still, while I trust Mordin's judgment on pretty much everything, I don't see his analysis of the Collectors as being an indictment on the idea of transhumanism itself. Rather it's an indictment of forcible outside interference, of trying to engineer a race for servitude. Its an indictment of the Reapers themselves, of their carelessness and lack of repsect for the things that make life life.

Granted, that's pretty much what Synthesis is now - forcible outside interference so yeah, as currently presented, it's completely untenable. But either 1. present it as one of the options that we devised for ourselves or 2. present it as a new voluntary step that the people of the galaxy can choose to take, and it loses its abominable teeth.

Just like destroy loses its teeth if you don't diabolus ex machina it up. Seriously, if destroy had been "you'll kill 50% of all life in the galaxy," I wouldn't consider it as awful as it is right now, because it wouldn't be so explicitly tuned to appeal to those who have a strong hatred of a single group. Whether or not you like destroy, you've got to admit that the only people who can enjoy it with a completely open heart and guilt-free conscience are bigots who don't consider synthetic life valid. For you it's a sacrifice or whatever, but for them it's complete and total vindication of their worldview with absolutely no downside.

And that's the problem: this isn't a clever device to drive everyone to ask themselves if they would make a serious sacrifice, because the writers have to have known that there would be a significant number of people who would feel absolutely no sense of sacrifice. If "driving people to feel the hit" had been the reason for writing that scenario in that way, it would have been Earth getting destroyed, because weakening humanity in that way would hit every single player where they live, especially renegades.

That they picked the geth rather than earth vindicates bigotry and frees those who embrace hate from any need to cope with the idea of a sacrifice. If the real intent had been to require a horrible scar upon the soul, I believe there are hundred different potential sacrifices that would be more effective and less frustratingly reaperish.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 16 mai 2012 - 08:27 .


#2260
delta_vee

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CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

And that's the problem: this isn't a clever device to drive everyone to ask themselves if they would make a serious sacrifice, because the writers have to have known that there would be a significant number of people who would feel absolutely no sense of sacrifice. If "driving people to feel the hit" had been the reason for writing that scenario in that way, it would have been Earth getting destroyed, because weakening humanity in that way would hit every single play where they live, especially renegades.

That they picked the geth rather than earth vindicates bigotry and frees those who embrace hate from any need to cope with the idea of a sacrifice.

Except that they did use the destruction of Earth as a consequence of Destroy - as a punishment for non-completionism. I've said before that the entire series punished a lack of completion above all else, and this is no exception. Fail to gather enough EMS, and Destroy glasses Earth (and nobody emerges from the Normandy's door in the stupid crash scene, implying your friends are dead).

Unfortunately, I think it's something of a natural outgrowth of the thematic highjacking towards synthetic-organic conflict (senseless though it seems, of course). They felt the need to attach an additional consequence to the red tube of doom, and killing all synthetics instead of merely the Reapers seems at least somewhat fitting. Not that I like it, of course, and not that I don't rail at the perilously sudden change in central conflict. But it does maintain a certain twisted consistency, I have to admit.

Further to your phantom-menacing earlier, it strikes me as exceptionally odd that the revelation of the Crucible's potential came so very late. The first two games delivered the main plot twist somewhere between the 2/3 mark and the 3/4, along the primary plot missions, anyways. We got something of that with Vendetta's dual revelations, but we didn't get the same sense of shaping the final choice as we did in the first two games. The choices at the end of ME1 and ME2 were secondary, opportunistic decisions, coloring the consequences of victory but not entirely defining them.

I like your idea of a friendly character finding the required information, as opposed to last-moment statements from an untrusted enemy, but I think the context and consequences must have time to percolate, so that when the final choice is presented we've already mostly made up our minds.

Modifié par delta_vee, 16 mai 2012 - 08:36 .


#2261
KitaSaturnyne

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delta_vee wrote...

Further to your phantom-menacing earlier, it strikes me as exceptionally odd that the revelation of the Crucible's potential came so very late. The first two games delivered the main plot twist somewhere between the 2/3 mark and the 3/4, along the primary plot missions, anyways. We got something of that with Vendetta's dual revelations, but we didn't get the same sense of shaping the final choice as we did in the first two games. The choices at the end of ME1 and ME2 were secondary, opportunistic decisions, coloring the consequences of victory but not entirely defining them.

Mac Walters. Mac Walters, Mac Walters, Mac Walters.

#2262
drayfish

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Thanks KitaSaturnyne, it's nice to be back – although I must say, ya'll got on pretty damned well without me. The last several pages of this thread have been extraordinary. 
 
Firstly, the acronyms! I loves me an acronym, and everyone was on fire, bandying about IA, EC, IT, DLC, AI, and perhaps my favourite, CGG's NCHC. A passer-by, randomly tumbling into those pages might have thought that Seasame Street was in the midst of some kind of splendid conniption, but I was loving it.
 
And Fapmaster5000:

Fapmaster5000 wrote...
 
'Introspective neo-noir'

Beautiful. 
 
And much as it pains me to say, everyone articulated the difficulty of the Indoctrination Theory extremely convincingly. That's not to say that I don't still hold on to my shrivelled diadem of hope, but I can't deny that there will have to be some serious justification offered in the final version of the game: some SJ in the EC (...okay, that was just sad; that's why it was for the best I didn't get to play with the acronyms too).
 
And finally, how on Earth do you do that thing where you almost manage to sell me on a repugnant premise, CulturalGeekGirl?  Never - I never would have thought I could approach that ending with anything but abject revulsion, and yet your suggestion of building a self-aware AI, helping to sculpt the identity of a burgeoning consciousness so that it could access this previously impenetrable piece of alien tech – that could almost do it. For that matter, as much as it would pain me, it could have even been EDI (sans body, of course) – a synthetic character we have seen grow to self-hood over the course of three games, one who does indeed adapt reaper code into herself. If she had have slowly integrated herself into machine, if she had have gradually interacted with and teased out this dawning knowledge, sharing the horror with us, convincing us of its hateful inevitability, instead of Piggy-from-Lord-of-the-Space-Flies with his patronising double-speak... Then we could have at least processed this final act in the construct of companionship, conversation and revelation – the interactive devices that have carried the entirety of the game. ...Yeah, and then Jar Jar gets sucked into the podracer engine and a fine paste sprays over Jabba's face.  I know, I know... Should-ah, could-ah, would-ah.)
 
 
p.s. – And yep, delta_vee the whiskey is right – Wait, what? ArKay? What the hell?
 

Modifié par drayfish, 16 mai 2012 - 08:52 .


#2263
CulturalGeekGirl

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delta_vee wrote...

I like your idea of a friendly character finding the required information, as opposed to last-moment statements from an untrusted enemy, but I think the context and consequences must have time to percolate, so that when the final choice is presented we've already mostly made up our minds.


I agree with this. In my slightly-more-aggressive mental rewrite, you have people debating what they think the Crucible will do the entire game, based on the tech you're incorporating into it. This way, when the final choice is presented, even if you don't have crewmates there with you, you've talked over these things with your crew beforehand.

If they wanted Control to seem like a valid option, you would need a lot of your highly-trustworthy technically-minded folks endorsing its plasibility during construction, because we have never heard anything other than "that is a bad idea." If they wanted Synthesis to seem valid, they'd have to have similar conversations with people about the idea of eventually incorporating tech into themselves. Remember, Shep and Garrus are already moderately cybered to start with.

Now ideally, you would actually have some of your crew with you at the end, but I know I can't even dream of asking for that.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 16 mai 2012 - 08:58 .


#2264
delta_vee

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@ KitaSaturnyne:

Whenever I say something akin to "exceptionally odd" when referencing ME3's narrative, it's generally a euphemism for "Mac Walters." Consider it a drinking game.

@ drayfish:

Speaking of drinking games, I said bourbon, dammit!

#2265
TheMarshal

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I think the fact that the Crucible was introduced so early in ME3 was a major mistake. It weakened the impact of such a thing and immediately made me suspicious. "Oh, here's the super weapon to defeat the Reapers... In the first mission of the game... Okay, what's wrong with it?" I would have much rather had the majority of ME3 focused on rallying the galaxy behind us, without worrying about building up Crucible engineering staff.

If we had to have a super weapon, it should have been something where we would actually question its use, like perhaps it uses Dark Energy to completely obliterate any Reaper in the system (Cerberus found plans for such a weapon and started building it on their own, perhaps?) Obviously such a weapon could have unforeseen negative consequences, or even foreseen consequences (Haestrom's star being an early test of the weapon?) You can then choose to use the weapon and risk destroying several worlds or go it alone and just hope the combined military might of the galaxy is enough.

I get the appeal of something that you have to build over the course of the game in order to defeat the Reapers - even though the metaphorical building of an army worked just as well for me.  I just felt that the Crucible was pretty weak as far as super-weapons are concerned.

Modifié par TheMarshal, 16 mai 2012 - 09:18 .


#2266
Sable Phoenix

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delta_vee wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

...the implications I have discovered are literally the most horrifyingly sociopathic fictional conceits I've ever encountered. I'm a little shell-shocked.

Don't read any Peter Watts, then. Especially Blindsight. He'll halfway convince you sapience is a bad thing.


Holy crap, I'm slowly catching up through this thread, which has left me in the dust, but I absolutely have to pause and jump ahead to reply to this.

I've never read a novel that made me hit Google in search of advanced concepts I had never heard of as often as Blindsight.  It's diamond hard SF and it reads like it (Watts was a marine biologist), but it's also penned by someone who is incredibly adept at making evocative word pictures that put you in the middle of the action.  Yes it's horrifically depressing, yes it's a complete mindbender, and I don't know if I would ever read it again.  But it's also excellently written, in a way that I've rarely seen excellent writing in any genre, not just science fiction.  In many ways it's a horror story about an encounter with xenomorphic lifeform that puts Alien to shame.  It's much less gory and much more psychological, and thus, in ways, even more terrifying.  But it also forces you to sit back and think about things I guarantee you have never thought about before.

It's also imminently relevant to the whole "Indoctrination Theory", since most of the novel deals with the manipulation of perception via environmental conditions, and calls into question what intelligence and even consciousness actually is.

Recommended?  Hard to say; I doubt it's to everyone's taste.  Unforgettable?  Without a doubt.

#2267
delta_vee

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@ Sable:

I'll tell him you said that. He'd try to talk you out of the Alien comp, though.

The IT relevance does strike me as well, though, now that you mention it. For those who haven't read it yet, he gives a late-story reveal about the nature of the protagonist's perception of events (catalyzed by trauma, of course) which forces you to revise and reconsider every subjective judgement you've made over the course of the novel, and it not only ties in with, but is predicated upon the central themes. And he doesn't explain the ending, either.

Edit: He does it right, though.

Modifié par delta_vee, 16 mai 2012 - 09:17 .


#2268
KitaSaturnyne

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delta_vee wrote...

@ KitaSaturnyne:

Whenever I say something akin to "exceptionally odd" when referencing ME3's narrative, it's generally a euphemism for "Mac Walters." Consider it a drinking game.


Noted. He also needs a better hat.

#2269
Sable Phoenix

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delta_vee wrote...

@ Sable:

I'll tell him you said that. He'd try to talk you out of the Alien comp, though.

The IT relevance does strike me as well, though, now that you mention it. For those who haven't read it yet, he gives a late-story reveal about the nature of the protagonist's perception of events (catalyzed by trauma, of course) which forces you to revise and reconsider every subjective judgement you've made over the course of the novel, and it not only ties in with, but is predicated upon the central themes. And he doesn't explain the ending, either.

Edit: He does it right, though.


I dunno.  The scene where one of the aliens is hanging in midair, literally right in front of the protagonist, and he cannot see it because it is (by pure instinct!) vibrating in place so that its image always falls precisely on the blind spot where the optic nerve connects to the retina?

Tell me that wasn't more viscerally terrifying than any scene in Alien, even the chestburster.  It's even worse than the Weeping Angels from Dr. Who.

Modifié par Sable Phoenix, 16 mai 2012 - 11:49 .


#2270
delta_vee

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Sable Phoenix wrote...

I dunno.  The scene where one of the aliens is hanging in midair, literally right in front of the protagonist, and he cannot see it because it is (by pure instinct!) vibrating in place so that its image always falls precisely on the blind spot where the optic nerve connects to the retina?

Tell me that wasn't more viscerally terrifying than any scene in Alien, even the chestburster.  It's even worse than the Weeping Angels from Dr. Who.

Oh, he'd be flattered, but he holds Alien in pretty high regard.

More viscerally terrifying? I'd say no. Far more psychological in nature. The overall impact, however, I'd agree is greater.

And it wasn't the blind spot. The scrambler was moving during the eyes' saccades, and his brain was rejecting the scrambler even being there.

Modifié par delta_vee, 17 mai 2012 - 12:43 .


#2271
CulturalGeekGirl

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This does sound great, I'll have to check it out.

All of my favorite science fictional ideas come from comedies, though. The "Somebody Else's Problem" field is my all-time favorite. It posits that it is very hard to make something invisible, but very easy to make someone assume it's not their problem and just ignore it.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 17 mai 2012 - 01:00 .


#2272
delta_vee

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CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

If they wanted Control to seem like a valid option, you would need a lot of your highly-trustworthy technically-minded folks endorsing its plasibility during construction, because we have never heard anything other than "that is a bad idea." If they wanted Synthesis to seem valid, they'd have to have similar conversations with people about the idea of eventually incorporating tech into themselves. Remember, Shep and Garrus are already moderately cybered to start with.

Why didn't we get this, again? It's not even like we weren't checking up on the Crucible as it was getting built. Was it a matter of wanting to keep the end-choice under wraps or something?

Oh, wait, Mr Exceptionally Odd. (Drink.)

Serious question, though, if anyone has a stab at an answer.

#2273
Taboo

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Alien is a film I deeply respect in the speculations department. I am terrified of the Xenomorph because I cannot see it. I am also terrified of it because I cannot comprehend it.

If I knew there was Whiskey in this thread I would have been here earlier.

#2274
KitaSaturnyne

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delta_vee wrote...

Why didn't we get this, again? It's not even like we weren't checking up on the Crucible as it was getting built. Was it a matter of wanting to keep the end-choice under wraps or something?

Oh, wait, Mr Exceptionally Odd. (Drink.)

Serious question, though, if anyone has a stab at an answer.

Firstly, I'm going to die of cirrhosis because of you.

Secondly, f**k Mac Walters.

#2275
3DandBeyond

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delta_vee wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

If they wanted Control to seem like a valid option, you would need a lot of your highly-trustworthy technically-minded folks endorsing its plasibility during construction, because we have never heard anything other than "that is a bad idea." If they wanted Synthesis to seem valid, they'd have to have similar conversations with people about the idea of eventually incorporating tech into themselves. Remember, Shep and Garrus are already moderately cybered to start with.

Why didn't we get this, again? It's not even like we weren't checking up on the Crucible as it was getting built. Was it a matter of wanting to keep the end-choice under wraps or something?

Oh, wait, Mr Exceptionally Odd. (Drink.)

Serious question, though, if anyone has a stab at an answer.


What I find as kind of funny is that there's so much emphasis in ME2 on Harbinger and his "assuming control" or "relinquishing control", but then Control is given as some sort of valid option.  Well, here's the thing and it is possibly debatable but there are 2 options that are affected by what you decide to do with the collector's base.  If you destroy it because of the abhorrent abomination it is and logically deny TIM and Cerberus the use of unholy technological secrets contained within, you don't need as high an EMS in ME3 to meet the minimums to get a "good" Destroy ending (not the super dooper breathtastic one, though). 
If however you save it and let TIM reverse engineer it (which should have had more impact in ME3 considering TIM's ideas of control), you don't need as high an EMS to meet the minimum to get a "good" Control ending.


Since in my mind's eye I don't view saving it as the same thing as saving Maelon's data, because there's way too much room for bad things to happen, I don't see that as a good thing, and then it's one reason I don't see Control as a good thing.  Unfortunately, I can't fully embrace Destroy either, and Synthesis was never a consideration.

I am still hung up on the thought that Shepard cannot and would not believe anything the kid says given that he
has always been in control of the uglies that want to kill everyone.

Furthermore, it's somewhat odd that Harbinger also uses almost the exact
same words as the star kid does later on when Shepard decides to
destroy the Collector's base-they will find another solution.