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[delta_vee]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Alien is a film I deeply respect in the speculations department. I am terrified of the Xenomorph because I cannot see it. I am also terrified of it because I cannot comprehend it.

The Xenomorph hit the absolute sweet spot in terms of monster. It was the demon, the succubus, and the artifact all rolled into one. It will seek to kill you, always. It draws you in and uses you for its own purposes. And it remains a fascination, a perpetually-tempting source of power. We didn't need to know where and how it came to be. It simply was, and we had to deal with it.

The Reapers had all three of those, too, before their (lame, nonsensical) purpose was revealed.

If I knew there was Whiskey in this thread I would have been here earlier.

There is always whiskey.

3DandBeyond wrote...

Since in my mind's eye I don't view saving it as the same thing as saving Maelon's data, because there's way too much room for bad things to happen, I don't see that as a good thing, and then it's one reason I don't see Control as a good thing.  Unfortunately, I can't fully embrace Destroy either, and Synthesis was never a consideration.

Establishing the possibility of Control outside TIM's ramblings should have been done long before the Ten Minutes if they wanted us to seriously consider it. Perhaps they were trying to do so on Horizon, amongst the horrors inflicted, and it simply failed?

For me, saving the Collector base was a matter of trading off the potential value (similar to the tech advances we got from Sovereign's remains) with the risk of indoctrination in its study (as happened to the team aboard the derelict Reaper). Even then, however, I wasn't thinking it'd lead to controling the Reapers - I thought it would go the other route, finding some manner in which to innoculate against indoc or something.

I am still hung up on the thought that Shepard cannot and would not believe anything the kid says given that he has always been in control of the uglies that want to kill everyone.

You and a lot of other people. The reveal was so...oddly timed. (Drink, Kita, no matter what your liver says.)

Modifié par delta_vee, 17 mai 2012 - 01:39 .

[CulturalGeekGirl]

delta_vee wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

If they wanted Control to seem like a valid option, you would need a lot of your highly-trustworthy technically-minded folks endorsing its plasibility during construction, because we have never heard anything other than "that is a bad idea." If they wanted Synthesis to seem valid, they'd have to have similar conversations with people about the idea of eventually incorporating tech into themselves. Remember, Shep and Garrus are already moderately cybered to start with.

Why didn't we get this, again? It's not even like we weren't checking up on the Crucible as it was getting built. Was it a matter of wanting to keep the end-choice under wraps or something?

Oh, wait, Mr Exceptionally Odd. (Drink.)

Serious question, though, if anyone has a stab at an answer.

I would guess that they had not themselves decided what the Crucible would be until the very end, or how important it would be to the plot. It is very possible, with the way the game is structured and all crucible updates after Mars being delivered by the same 2-4 characters, that the entire crucible concept was inserted into the game in the last third of the writing process. Or, if not straight-out-inserted, at least bummped up from bit-part-sidequest-thing to star player.

Look at Palaven, Tuchanka and Rannoc. Three of the major planets, and there is nothing about the Crucible here. It's all about bringing the Galaxy together for what seems like a conventional military action. They're alliance-building that feels pretty... I'm going to be honest... irrelevant given how the rest of the story plays out. If I recall correctly, you don't get references to the Crucible in any of the dialogue during pretty much any mission other than Mars and Thessia, it's all delivered to you afterwards by everybody's favorite exposition fairy, Admiral Hacket. Sometimes you'll get Shepard mumbling "this'll help the crucible" as she picks up some random found object.

Now I'm guessing what happened was this: each person was given a planet and told to "write a story here that you think would be something that'll help the war, we'll leave you to it." It seems like Bioware writers may largely "own" their own chapters of a story, leaving them to fairly autonomously tell the best story they can, without really worrying about how it links into the greater narrative. (I wrote a whole essay about how ME2 would be even better if some of the sidemissions related more closely to the main narrative, and how easily that could be done.)

The thing is, you get the Krogan to help on Palaven and... what does that do exactly? I still don't know. Frees up some fleets, maybe? But Palaven is still pretty heavily under fire, so... I dunno.

What Bioware seems to need is a mid-level employee who is sort of a story geenie, a "keeper of the books," a "wrangler of the primary plotline and guide to the subplots." This guy would make sure that they have at least a decent ending idea when they start, and would keep all the writers writing independently informed of any shifts in that ending and plot.

[delta_vee]

That sounds...depressingly plausible. (Also, shouldn't that be Mac's job? (Drink.))

I'd like to see that essay sometime, too.

[delta_vee]

[Double-post gremlins.]

Modifié par delta_vee, 17 mai 2012 - 01:52 .

[edisnooM]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

delta_vee wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

If they wanted Control to seem like a valid option, you would need a lot of your highly-trustworthy technically-minded folks endorsing its plasibility during construction, because we have never heard anything other than "that is a bad idea." If they wanted Synthesis to seem valid, they'd have to have similar conversations with people about the idea of eventually incorporating tech into themselves. Remember, Shep and Garrus are already moderately cybered to start with.

Why didn't we get this, again? It's not even like we weren't checking up on the Crucible as it was getting built. Was it a matter of wanting to keep the end-choice under wraps or something?

Oh, wait, Mr Exceptionally Odd. (Drink.)

Serious question, though, if anyone has a stab at an answer.

I would guess that they had not themselves decided what the Crucible would be until the very end, or how important it would be to the plot. It is very possible, with the way the game is structured and all crucible updates after Mars being delivered by the same 2-4 characters, that the entire crucible concept was inserted into the game in the last third of the writing process. Or, if not straight-out-inserted, at least bummped up from bit-part-sidequest-thing to star player.

Look at Palaven, Tuchanka and Rannoc. Three of the major planets, and there is nothing about the Crucible here. It's all about bringing the Galaxy together for what seems like a conventional military action. They're alliance-building that feels pretty... I'm going to be honest... irrelevant given how the rest of the story plays out. If I recall correctly, you don't get references to the Crucible in any of the dialogue during pretty much any mission other than Mars and Thessia, it's all delivered to you afterwards by everybody's favorite exposition fairy, Admiral Hacket. Sometimes you'll get Shepard mumbling "this'll help the crucible" as she picks up some random found object.

Now I'm guessing what happened was this: each person was given a planet and told to "write a story here that you think would be something that'll help the war, we'll leave you to it." It seems like Bioware writers may largely "own" their own chapters of a story, leaving them to fairly autonomously tell the best story they can, without really worrying about how it links into the greater narrative. (I wrote a whole essay about how ME2 would be even better if some of the sidemissions related more closely to the main narrative, and how easily that could be done.)

The thing is, you get the Krogan to help on Palaven and... what does that do exactly? I still don't know. Frees up some fleets, maybe? But Palaven is still pretty heavily under fire, so... I dunno.

What Bioware seems to need is a mid-level employee who is sort of a story geenie, a "keeper of the books," a "wrangler of the primary plotline and guide to the subplots." This guy would make sure that they have at least a decent ending idea when they start, and would keep all the writers writing independently informed of any shifts in that ending and plot.

I had actually wondered about this, do you think that all the writers involved knew about the endgame and the fact that it would come down to "Synthetics vs Organics"? I was wondering if that's why it feels so weird and out of nowhere, that if as you say they were operating independently things might have got disconnected. Maybe whoever was responsible for Rannoch didn't get the memo that the Geth are supposed to be the bane of all organic existence.

As for Palaven I don't know really, it always struck me as weird that the whole point was to get Krogan boots on the ground but all they did was slow the Reapers down. And then they were supposed to help on Earth but they didn't until the endgame, and by then Garrus advised the Primarch to commit to the Crucible instead of defending Palevan anyway so that was weird too. It all seems so jumbled when you look at it.

[edisnooM]

As a side-note I came across this thread from two months ago that is...interesting to say the least:

http://social.biowar...5/index/9993946

It definitely made me raise my eyebrows a tad.

[drayfish]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

What Bioware seems to need is a mid-level employee who is sort of a story geenie, a "keeper of the books," a "wrangler of the primary plotline and guide to the subplots." This guy would make sure that they have at least a decent ending idea when they start, and would keep all the writers writing independently informed of any shifts in that ending and plot.

Everyone's thinking it, but I'll say it: I vote you.

If you can make me almost buy the Catalyst - you may actually have magic powers.

Modifié par drayfish, 17 mai 2012 - 02:06 .

[frypan]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Alien is a film I deeply respect in the speculations department. I am terrified of the Xenomorph because I cannot see it. I am also terrified of it because I cannot comprehend it.

If I knew there was Whiskey in this thread I would have been here earlier.

Welcome Taboo-XX, have enjoyed your threads elsewhere and its good to see you joining in. Settlle in, but ration that whiskey if you intend to catch up on previous posts. I can strongly recommend it all, but there is a lot!

Some of your optimism regarding the EC will be welcome, as will insights from the film industry.

[delta_vee]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

What Bioware seems to need is a mid-level employee who is sort of a story geenie, a "keeper of the books," a "wrangler of the primary plotline and guide to the subplots." This guy would make sure that they have at least a decent ending idea when they start, and would keep all the writers writing independently informed of any shifts in that ending and plot.

Wasn't that very thing suggested by someone somewhere far upthread? Sable, maybe? (Oh gods, the alliteration. I'm sorry.)

And you say mid-level - do you mean someone acting as a clearinghouse and coordinator, then? I'd have thought the high-level integration of story components would be the lead writer's job, since it's ostensibly their responsibility?

[KitaSaturnyne]

delta_vee wrote...

Establishing the possibility of Control outside TIM's ramblings should have been done long before the Ten Minutes if they wanted us to seriously consider it. Perhaps they were trying to do so on Horizon, amongst the horrors inflicted, and it simply failed?

Horizon? Do you perhaps mean Sanctuary?

You and a lot of other people. The reveal was so...oddly timed. (Drink, Kita, no matter what your liver says.)

I'm going to die and it's all your fault.

[edisnooM]

KitaSaturnyne wrote...

delta_vee wrote...

Establishing the possibility of Control outside TIM's ramblings should have been done long before the Ten Minutes if they wanted us to seriously consider it. Perhaps they were trying to do so on Horizon, amongst the horrors inflicted, and it simply failed?

Horizon? Do you perhaps mean Sanctuary?

Actually Sanctuary was on Horizon.

[delta_vee]

KitaSaturnyne wrote...

Horizon? Do you perhaps mean Sanctuary?

Sanctuary was the facility on Horizon. Not that it had any real connection to previous events there - I'm pretty sure it was just to be familiar.

I'm going to die and it's all your fault.

You will end because Mac demands it.

[KitaSaturnyne]

Huh. Didn't know that. I remember Sanctuary being billed as a planet, not a settlement.

Seriously. F**k Mac Walters.

Modifié par KitaSaturnyne, 17 mai 2012 - 02:50 .

[Deltakarma]

edisnooM wrote...

As a side-note I came across this thread from two months ago that is...interesting to say the least:

http://social.biowar...5/index/9993946

It definitely made me raise my eyebrows a tad.

Im tearing from my laughter! This is fricken brilliant! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

CANT STOP LAUGHING! YOU HURT ME! 

*wipes his tears away*

Time to go bump...

Edit: I AM LAUGHING AT THE **** THAT HAS BEEN PUT ON US!

Modifié par Deltakarma, 17 mai 2012 - 02:54 .

[Seijin8]

Folks, let's tone down the "F Mac Walters" stuff. No need to get thread locked over something juvenile.

[G Kevin]

Seijin8 wrote...

Folks, let's tone down the "F Mac Walters" stuff. No need to get thread locked over something juvenile.

I've been lurking on here and I agree.

Keep it civil people.

Modifié par G Kevin, 17 mai 2012 - 03:12 .

[Seijin8]

@CulturalGeekGirl...

delta_vee wrote...

I'd like to see that essay sometime, too.

Seconded!

[CulturalGeekGirl]

delta_vee wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

What Bioware seems to need is a mid-level employee who is sort of a story geenie, a "keeper of the books," a "wrangler of the primary plotline and guide to the subplots." This guy would make sure that they have at least a decent ending idea when they start, and would keep all the writers writing independently informed of any shifts in that ending and plot.

Wasn't that very thing suggested by someone somewhere far upthread? Sable, maybe? (Oh gods, the alliteration. I'm sorry.)

And you say mid-level - do you mean someone acting as a clearinghouse and coordinator, then? I'd have thought the high-level integration of story components would be the lead writer's job, since it's ostensibly their responsibility?

Yes and no. 

What the title "Lead Writer" means varies a lot across the industry.

In a lot of studios, the lead writer's job is to come up with cool characters and crazy ideas, worldbuild and plotline, but there's often some form of producer "managing" him (even if he technically outranks that producer); making sure that things hold together and everything goes smoothly and he doesn't cut the part about the rat-men after art has spent a month on the rat-men model. This producer, (or assistant producer, or "assprod" as we sometimes call them) usually doesn't actually write much, but rather stands over the writer, clearing their throat loudly and pointing at milestone dates. In some cases this producer is sort of a manager for all the writers. Their efficacy (as far as keeping the narrative on track goes) is predicated on A: their ability to actually stand up to the leads and B. their facility with story.

In smaller studios, there is sometimes a position called "narrative designer." This guy's job is to be the coordinator between the design and writing teams, and do some supplementary writing. He speaks both design and writing, and he serves as a kind of emissary between the teams, as well as checking in on all the writers and managing docs. This job is thankless, but he's often a sort of second-in-command on the writing team.

Sometimes yeah, it is the Lead Writer's job to do all this stuff, but I'd say that's less common than you think.

Think of it this way: there are five things someone needs to do to get the story finished. They are: writing, scheduling, editing, managing, and documentation.

Often a Lead Writer's job is a mix of writing and managing. Scheduling, documentation, editing, and some surplus managing fall to other people. If they don't have the right people in place to do these surplus writing/managerial tasks, everything can kind of go kablooie.

This varies a lot from company to company. Sometimes the lead writer is actually more of a management, editing, and scheduling guy. Sometimes he does absolutely nothing but write and everyone else figures out the details. Sometimes he gets handed the story by the design team and told "put jokes in this."

So blaming just one person is probably not accurate at all.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 17 mai 2012 - 04:00 .

[KitaSaturnyne]

Aww, my fun's been ruined. Well, not really. The Catalyst is fair game still, isn't it?

Anyway, I've been wondering lately what kind of DLC would have to be released (after the EC) that would be able to patch up the narrative we've got, rather than having to rewrite it from the ground up for it make sense. Is it really just the ending that needs that much fixing? I personally think the whole game could use a rewrite at this point, no matter who the lead was.

[delta_vee]

@ CG Girl:

Ah. Good breakdown. Thanks.

And yes, it does seem like ME3 needed someone in that position.

@ Kita:

At this point, addressing all the major narrative problems is beyond the scope of DLC and more in line with a full do-over - which is neither possible at this stage, nor profitable if done, nor necessary for the majority, I think. For all its faults, I was still devouring the game until the Ten Minutes, and only then was I given sufficient cause to go looking for problems.

Modifié par delta_vee, 17 mai 2012 - 03:55 .

[3DandBeyond]

delta_vee wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

Since in my mind's eye I don't view saving it as the same thing as saving Maelon's data, because there's way too much room for bad things to happen, I don't see that as a good thing, and then it's one reason I don't see Control as a good thing.  Unfortunately, I can't fully embrace Destroy either, and Synthesis was never a consideration.

Establishing the possibility of Control outside TIM's ramblings should have been done long before the Ten Minutes if they wanted us to seriously consider it. Perhaps they were trying to do so on Horizon, amongst the horrors inflicted, and it simply failed?

For me, saving the Collector base was a matter of trading off the potential value (similar to the tech advances we got from Sovereign's remains) with the risk of indoctrination in its study (as happened to the team aboard the derelict Reaper). Even then, however, I wasn't thinking it'd lead to controling the Reapers - I thought it would go the other route, finding some manner in which to innoculate against indoc or something.

I am still hung up on the thought that Shepard cannot and would not believe anything the kid says given that he has always been in control of the uglies that want to kill everyone.

You and a lot of other people. The reveal was so...oddly timed. (Drink, Kita, no matter what your liver says.)

My problem with saving the collector base was who I'd be turning it over to-at that point in the game I'd already formed my opinion of TIM and disliked him immensely.

I worried about indoctrination, too of course.  And the thing is, as far as TIM was concerned I felt justified in destroying it once I'd learned in ME3 that he was already trying to create his own reaper hybrids.  So the collector base should have meant far more than it did to ME3. 

[CulturalGeekGirl]

delta_vee wrote...

@ CG Girl:

Ah. Good breakdown. Thanks.

And yes, it does seem like ME3 needed someone in that position.

@ Kita:

At this point, addressing all the major narrative problems is beyond the scope of DLC and more in line with a full do-over - which is neither possible at this stage, nor profitable if done, nor necessary for the majority, I think. For all its faults, I was still devouring the game until the Ten Minutes, and only then was I given sufficient cause to go looking for problems.

I'm going to engage in some super speculation now. Note: I have zero insider information, this is just my way of plausibly explaining what might have happened to what was formerly a very-well-oiled storytelling machine in a way that would put the fault on pretty-much-nobody.

The Bioware teams have had a writing system that has always worked in the past, so they've stuck to it. Sometime in the last X years, though, some producer who has been working with the story teams forever quit, or moved to another department, or took a job somewhere that isn't an oilfield in the middle of nowhere. The thing is, this fictional producer who left had the gift of the "evil eye," the power to stare someone a pay-grade higher than you down and make them get a thing done. Whoever replaced this mystery producer is an OK sort, but they don't have the eye man, the eye. Without the eye, nobody knows why their old system doesn't work anymore, but somehow things just aren't getting done the same way.

In conclusion: producers are gorram magic.

As for what's needed to fix ME, honestly it doesn't need a full rewrite. The best way to fix it would be to add a "No, screw you!" option to the Catalyst conversation and allow for a conventional victory with losses heavy enough to be sad, but light enough to not be soul-crushing. I think about 90% of people would be satisfied with this, and sure... practically nobody would ever pick any of the other endings, but meh... that's how it goes. Heck, you could make it so that you only have this option if you're importing a character from ME2. Or go even further and require it to be a ME1 character played all the way through in order to get this ending (except on PS3, naturally). This would ensure the longevity of the series, since any time someone said "I want to play Mass Effect," their friends would say "Dude, you HAVE to start at ME1. TRUST ME."

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 17 mai 2012 - 04:09 .

[Seijin8]

@CulturalGeekGirl: Thanks for the detailed description. Sometimes teams just don't gel, despite the fact that they have all the needed components. Like they are on the wrong frequency or something. ME's team has always shifted as writers and designers have moved on to other projects. Perhaps there isn't anything intrinsically foul about Hudson/Walters, but the current team didn't play well together. Criticism is an extraordinarily powerful tool. So is a jackhammer. Either one, misapplied, can be dangerous and harmful. We may never understand what went on in the writing process that caused the disconnect that we saw, and as future careers are in jeopardy, it may not be in anyone's best interests to blurt it out.

Right now Hudson and Walters have a lot of scorn thrown at them, but I have largely enjoyed their work in the past. Everyone has a bad day, and perhaps the pressure of trying to find a satisfactory close to ME caused the "final decision" to get pushed back to a point where nothing good could have been done.

@KitaSaturnyne: Honestly, if BW/EA took a page from CD Projekt and next year we got "Mass Effect 3 Enhanced Edition", I'd be tickled, but it isn't going to happen. I doubt any DLC will do more than add elements to the story. What I would love to see, and may actually be possible via the EC, would be that our war assets make an appearance, possibly even affect some Priority: Earth missions, and that each DLC after the EC adds an additional asset or two with functional cutscenes/appearances in missions to constantly (and residually) expand Priority: Earth.

[edisnooM]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

delta_vee wrote...

@ CG Girl:

Ah. Good breakdown. Thanks.

And yes, it does seem like ME3 needed someone in that position.

@ Kita:

At this point, addressing all the major narrative problems is beyond the scope of DLC and more in line with a full do-over - which is neither possible at this stage, nor profitable if done, nor necessary for the majority, I think. For all its faults, I was still devouring the game until the Ten Minutes, and only then was I given sufficient cause to go looking for problems.

I'm going to engage in some super speculation now. Note: I have zero insider information, this is just my way of plausibly explaining what might have happened to what was formerly a very-well-oiled storytelling machine.

The Bioware teams have had a writing system that has always worked in the past, so they've stuck to it. Sometime in the last X years, though, some producer who has been working with the story teams forever quit, or moved to another department, or took a job somewhere that isn't an oilfield in the middle of nowhere. The thing is, this fictional producer who left had the gift of the "evil eye," the power to stare someone a pay-grade higher than you down and make them get a thing done. Whoever replaced this mystery producer is an OK sort, but they don't have the eye man, the eye. Without the eye, nobody knows why their old system doesn't work anymore, but somehow things just aren't getting done the same way.

In conclusion: producers are gorram magic.

As for what's needed to fix ME, honestly it doesn't need a full rewrite. The best way to fix it would be to add a "No, screw you!" option to the Catalyst conversation and allow for a conventional victory with losses heavy enough to be sad, but light enough to not be soul-crushing. I think about 90% of people would be satisfied with this, and sure... practically nobody would ever pick any of the other endings, but meh... that's how it goes. Heck, you could make it so that you only have this option if you're importing a character from ME2. Or go even further and require it to be a ME1 character played all the way through in order to get this ending (except on PS3, naturally). This would ensure the longevity of the series, since any time someone said "I want to play Mass Effect," their friends would say "Dude, you HAVE to start at ME1. TRUST ME."

I'm learning so much about behind the scenes in the game industry. 

BTW is it weird that when you talk about the producer using the "evil eye" I picture the "Lazy Eye" from Fievel Goes West? www.youtube.com/watch

I had thought it would be cool if they included something maybe a extra achievement for people who had played a character all the way from ME1 - ME3, if it was a "Jog On"(www.youtube.com/watch) to the Catalyst that would be fantastic.

[delta_vee]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

...somewhere that isn't an oilfield in the middle of nowhere.

Hey! That's my oilfield in the middle of the steppes (er, prairies) you're talkin' about there! I...oh, wait, I moved somewhere else too. (And it's less of an oilfield and more of a lot of roads and big box stores. And brown snow piles beside the roads in winter, because they use sand instead of salt.)

The river valley in summer is quite nice, though.

The thing is, this fictional producer who left had the gift of the "evil eye," the power to stare someone a pay-grade higher than you down and make them get a thing done. Whoever replaced this mystery producer is an OK sort, but they don't have the eye man, the eye. Without the eye, nobody knows why their old system doesn't work anymore, but somehow things just aren't getting done the same way.

Where do I sign up for this dream job?