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"All Were Thematically Revolting". My Lit Professor's take on the Endings. (UPDATED)


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#2376
KitaSaturnyne

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Well, some of it sounds interesting, but it's hard to say whether or not any of it will assist in "clarifying" the end.

That said, I had a random fanficcy idea about the Crucible and Shepard's sacrifice. It's just an idea I had in the shower, but I just wanted to share it.

Once the Crucible is jacked into the Citadel, Shepard boards as per normal, buts finds out that the Catalyst wasn't the Citadel. The Citadel simply acts as a signal booster of sorts. In truth, the Catalyst is Shepard. He steps into a Crucible contraption of some kind and becomes David Archer II. Basically, his brain and body are hooked up to this Crucible/ Citadel (Crucidel?) hybrid, and he can control it.

He finds out that the Crucible is basically a huge flame for the moths that are the Reapers. He sends out a signal, using the Mass Relays to boost and send it to other systems, which attracts many thousands (millions?) of Reapers to Sol. Instead of attacking however, they begin to attach themselves to the Crucible and Citadel's superstructures. The Crucible's signal is basically a giant Reaper magnet. Once the Crucible and Citadel are covered with Reapers, like a tree swarmed by cicadas, the Crucible uses the Mass Relays to quickly leave the galaxy where it explodes, taking the Reapers with it. Or, if you've speculated as far as Control goes, Shepard/ Crucible/ Citadel flies off into a sun, again taking the Reapers with it.

Afterwards, the Normandy recieves a last, short audio message from Shepard, "thank you, my friends".

Cue the stuff that shows the consequences of your actions, including any babies you may have been able to make.

Like I said, it's a young idea, but I thought I'd express it just to get it out there. I thought it really brought out the idea of a sacrifice, moreso than the current endings, anyway. The idea of Shepard's last action being a sacrifice seems like something the devs wanted to bring out in the end, but they didn't really do that. It was just "Shepard makes a choice and drags the universe along with him".

I've also named my Shepard/ Crucible/ Citadel hybrid the "ShepCruciDel".

EDIT: Dammit people, stop letting me start off new pages!

Modifié par KitaSaturnyne, 18 mai 2012 - 08:30 .


#2377
Seijin8

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I prefer "Citable" for its multi entendre

#2378
edisnooM

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Could be interesting. Really any change where Shepard can proactively do something, sacrifice, challenge, what have you, instead of just shuffling slowly into one of the Catalyst's contraptions would be nice.

#2379
KitaSaturnyne

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edisnooM wrote...

Could be interesting. Really any change where Shepard can proactively do something, sacrifice, challenge, what have you, instead of just shuffling slowly into one of the Catalyst's contraptions would be nice.

That reasoning is a 35 cent cab ride away from a Shepard striptease ending.

And I'm not sure I'm against that.

#2380
Seijin8

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My Shep is male, and I am not into that. Now if it were Tali... I'd pay for DLC featuring my favorite quarian's badonk. *That* is a proper "ending" :P

#2381
KitaSaturnyne

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Hehe "Mass Effect 3, now with Control, Destroy, Synthesis AND Stripper endings!"

#2382
Seijin8

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[opts out of the obvious "extended" references]

#2383
edisnooM

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Wow, that took a weird turn. :-)

#2384
Seijin8

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Haha, okay. Returning to something resembling the OP: KitaSaturnyne's idea of the Reaper magnet is actually decent and interesting. I am kind of torn when it comes to this kind of discussion, because I always envisioned ME1 as an homage to 80s sci-fi, and while ME2 was different, it reflected the grittier "grimdark" trend in sci-fi that followed the glitz of the 80s, so in its own meta-creative way, it fit in well.

It doesn't bother me that the endings were not in any way original, because I never really expected them to be. The magnet is (as far as I know) original... and yet... that wouldn't fit for me, personally. Better than what we got by a lot, but... loses some of the "tribute" feel, if you will.

EDIT:  And following this idea, most of the really strikingly good man vs. tech singularity stuff I have read was late 90s to mid 2000s, so maybe there is a trend in narrative style there.  If so, I think they forgot that 80s and aughts are actually different generations...

Modifié par Seijin8, 18 mai 2012 - 09:02 .


#2385
CulturalGeekGirl

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I'm cynical, I'm tired, and I've had a bad day today.

Here's my take on things right now: dramatic sacrifice is hard to get right. They've gotten it right in the past; the DA:O quandaries near the end are absolutely the most interesting decisions I have ever had to make in any video game. If you didn't have the DR "out," they'd be harsher... but they'd still make sense and be awesome.

Bioware had their one shot to do a good self-sacrifice ending for ME3. I'd have accepted one gladly, if it were of DA:O quality. They failed, and failed very, very badly.

Right now, I think any self-sacrifice ending that takes place in the starchamber is irrevocably tainted. I'm sorry, you don't get to just iterate on sadness until it is piquant. The memory of the wrong-ness of the original is going to stick with people.

I'd be OK with the sacrifice ending someone suggested much earlier... Shepard on the bridge of the Normandy, driving her kamikaze style straight into Harbringer's big stupid FACE. Some kind of nice "we will all go down together" scene with Garrus and Liara.

But at this point... I've been very careful not to use the word "owe." At this point the only thing I could see really cleansing my palate would be a freaking happy ending. No, I'm not someone who wouldn't have accepted a sad or bittersweet ending if they would have gotten it right the first time. In my second favorite RPG of all time, the hero's love interest dies in the canonical ending, leaving him a hollowed-out husk of a man with no reason to live, unable to let himself die because it would dishonor her sacrifice. The game is set in a gothic horror world, though, so that makes sense. It feels right.

You can hit that chord right you can fail. And if you fail this badly, try another tune.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 18 mai 2012 - 09:09 .


#2386
KitaSaturnyne

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Well like I said, it's just something I wanted to put out there.

I took another look at Walters' "LOTS OF SPECULATION" page tonight. Nothing really new came up, but I thought it interesting that the page was split up into two sections: "Shepard Alive" and "Shepard's Death".

The "Shepard Alive" section takes up about 2/3 of the page, and goes into all sorts of different ideas centering around the idea of "a brave new world". It even mentions the idea of the Crucible being a bomb, which requires Shepard to sacrifice himself.

The "Shepard's Death" part of the page? Simply, "Boy: Why did (Shepard) have to die", followed by the speculation line. That's it. It just comes off to me like there was this idea that was really strong (Alive) being overruled by another idea where the purpose wasn't so much to close the narrative as much as it was to have people talking about it.

I'm probably reading it wrong, though. It is 3AM, after all.

#2387
Seijin8

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Nah, that may well be it. Its an underpants gnome gameplan. Like Walters/Hudson thought:

1. Crucible, Starboy, Harby beam whackamole
2: ???
3. Profound and artistic self-sacrifice

#2388
Sable Phoenix

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KitaSaturnyne wrote...

Well, some of it sounds interesting, but it's hard to say whether or not any of it will assist in "clarifying" the end.

That said, I had a random fanficcy idea about the Crucible and Shepard's sacrifice. It's just an idea I had in the shower, but I just wanted to share it.

Once the Crucible is jacked into the Citadel, Shepard boards as per normal, buts finds out that the Catalyst wasn't the Citadel. The Citadel simply acts as a signal booster of sorts. In truth, the Catalyst is Shepard. He steps into a Crucible contraption of some kind and becomes David Archer II. Basically, his brain and body are hooked up to this Crucible/ Citadel (Crucidel?) hybrid, and he can control it.

He finds out that the Crucible is basically a huge flame for the moths that are the Reapers. He sends out a signal, using the Mass Relays to boost and send it to other systems, which attracts many thousands (millions?) of Reapers to Sol. Instead of attacking however, they begin to attach themselves to the Crucible and Citadel's superstructures. The Crucible's signal is basically a giant Reaper magnet. Once the Crucible and Citadel are covered with Reapers, like a tree swarmed by cicadas, the Crucible uses the Mass Relays to quickly leave the galaxy where it explodes, taking the Reapers with it. Or, if you've speculated as far as Control goes, Shepard/ Crucible/ Citadel flies off into a sun, again taking the Reapers with it.

Afterwards, the Normandy recieves a last, short audio message from Shepard, "thank you, my friends".

Cue the stuff that shows the consequences of your actions, including any babies you may have been able to make.

Like I said, it's a young idea, but I thought I'd express it just to get it out there. I thought it really brought out the idea of a sacrifice, moreso than the current endings, anyway. The idea of Shepard's last action being a sacrifice seems like something the devs wanted to bring out in the end, but they didn't really do that. It was just "Shepard makes a choice and drags the universe along with him".

I've also named my Shepard/ Crucible/ Citadel hybrid the "ShepCruciDel".

EDIT: Dammit people, stop letting me start off new pages!


This is somewhat similar to a fanficcy idea I during the interregnum between Mass Effects 2 and 3, which was something of an attempt to make the Lazarus Project actually matter.  Basically, because the Lazarus Project, and all its myriad universe-altering and character-altering implications, were totally ignored during the second game, I anticipated it playing a critically significant role in the third, and had decided that it would in fact be what was responsible for allowing Shepard to defeat the Reapers (of course this would have required that Hack Walters understand the concept of Chekhov's Gun, which he obviously does not).

My idea was that Cerberus would have brought Shepard "back" using a quantum blue-box technology they had based upon some kind of captured Collector/Reaper technology combined with Prothean technology like the beacons, if not the beacons themselves.  This would tie it neatly back to the beginning of Mass Effect 1 and explain why Lazarus had to be done with Shepard, since she was the only human who had actually interfaced with Prothean technology and had their Cipher in her mind.  Lazarus Project would not have been, first and foremost, about bringing Shepard back from the dead; it would have been about converting her to something like an actual physical Cipher.

Turns out I actually anticipated the "control" angle on the Illusive Man's obsession with the Reapers; as you can no doubt imagine, I was pretty stoked on my first playthrough that my guess seemed to be validated once the Illusive Man started going on about controlling them; and, as you can also no doubt imagine, I was monstrously disappointed on Cronos station when not only was Shepard revealed to not be an AI that thought it was Shepard (my personal pet explanation for resurrection from the dead in a universe that had never seen it before), but that the entire possibility was specifically dismissed by those damned Cronos video logs.

It would also have played obliquely into the what turned into the Indoctrination Theory (and this is eerie, as I look at it now, how much better everything would have worked had I been right, and how it seems that Hack Walters took time specifically to stomp on each one of my ideas): in the final confrontation Shepard faced in the game, she would be facing Harbinger itself in an attempt to control the Reapers, only the work that Cerberus did to rebuild her would actually have made her successfully able to interface with Reaper tech.  The Illusive Man wouldn't have been reduced to some crazed half-Husk, he would have remained (or, given his largely impotent role in Mass Effect 2, finally reached the level of) a Magnificent Bastard, and Shepard herself would have been his Xanatos Gambit.

Shepard would have somehow boarded Harbinger, interfaced with it, and battled it inside its "mind" (in the final boss battle that, as we now know, would have been "too video-gamey").  She would take it over and use it as the weapon against its own fellow Reapers, cutting her way through their fleet in a deadly blossom of molten-tungsten particle beams, attaching to the Citadel (becoming a poetic, metaphorical mirror-image of Sovereign), firing up the Mass Relays and... doing something.  What she would do, exactly, I wasn't sure, but I knew it just had to involve the Relays, it just had to use Dark Energy (a la Haestrom), and I had faith BioWare would make it really cool, something I just couldn't anticipate.

I also expected there to be some nasty choices and sacrifices all coming to a head at this point, since you would, somehow, risk giving the Illusive Man exactly what he wants.  Again, I didn't have details worked out in my mind, but I was willing to leave that to BioWare and let them wow me.

We all know how that turned out, of course.

Little did I realize I was phantom-menacing my own screenplay for Mass Effect 3 ahead of time.  What is that, then... a quantum-menace screenplay?

Modifié par Sable Phoenix, 18 mai 2012 - 09:35 .


#2389
CulturalGeekGirl

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@KitaSaturnyne

Heh, I hope you didn't take that as me ranting about your particular idea, which is perfectly fine. And far be it for me to say you shouldn't do rewrites that preserve imperfect parts of the ending... I've been doing that forever now. It was just a sudden whim that captured me, not a judgment on your particular brand of sacrifice.

I just want to experience something that conveys cheer, and soon.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 18 mai 2012 - 09:36 .


#2390
Seijin8

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@Sable Phoenix:

Wow, great concept, and really, wouldn't be impossible to alter existing narrative/gameplay to make it happen. Change a few dialog sequences, make the Crucible into something that amplifies Shepard's mental/interface abilities to the point where this is possible. Bonus EMS (or related whatevertheheck) points for having done the Geth Collective and project Overlord.

Depending on narrative structure, TIM, EDI and Legion could have all played key roles in making this happen, directly through their actions or indirectly in a way that Shepard recollects and builds on. Each trial that the interface (intrusion countermeasures) threw forward to disallow control was an obstacle that some key decision or moment from before could help to overcome. Simultaneously, it would be Shepard's life flashing before his/her eyes, and a reminder of the great journey that got us this far.

Beautiful idea, Sable Phoenix!

#2391
Sable Phoenix

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Seijin8 wrote...

@Sable Phoenix:

Wow, great concept, and really, wouldn't be impossible to alter existing narrative/gameplay to make it happen. Change a few dialog sequences, make the Crucible into something that amplifies Shepard's mental/interface abilities to the point where this is possible. Bonus EMS (or related whatevertheheck) points for having done the Geth Collective and project Overlord.

Depending on narrative structure, TIM, EDI and Legion could have all played key roles in making this happen, directly through their actions or indirectly in a way that Shepard recollects and builds on. Each trial that the interface (intrusion countermeasures) threw forward to disallow control was an obstacle that some key decision or moment from before could help to overcome. Simultaneously, it would be Shepard's life flashing before his/her eyes, and a reminder of the great journey that got us this far.

Beautiful idea, Sable Phoenix!


Nonsense.  You are expanding on it in a way that I didn't anticipate.  My ideas were just narratively symmetrical.  You are making them beautiful.  Fighting through a travelogue of the characters and situations we'd already experienced in order to control Harbinger's mind?  What an endgame sequence that would have been!

#2392
Seijin8

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Sorry, Sable Phoenix, I guess I am so used to headcanonizing and *speculating* now that it seemed to just flow naturally from your idea.

Could also re-add the lost convo with Ashley about the afterlife, giving a hazy impression of returning with things undone (Zaeed: Rage is a hell of an anethetic). Take it a step farther with Legion "having a soul", that this *synthetic* Shepard was - soul and all - the original Shepard, come to finish this war with the Reapers, driven not just by the tech machinations of TIM, but by a sense of purpose, infused by the squadmates and experiences.

Could be an avenging angel here to set things right, fueled by the power of the squadmate's relationships and love, or just as easily, an O'Barr style Crow (nod to CCGirl) whose singular motivation is to make the Reapers pay - as *this* cycle's avatar of vengeance.

*shrug* Seems to flow naturally enough to me.

EDIT:  On reflection, the soul bit may be too far over the line for some.  If we are confronting the idea of Shepard actualy being an AI, then we have to address the nature of what that means.  Ashley's scene (that was cut-out) would have been the place for this, and maybe only available on some throughlines.

Modifié par Seijin8, 18 mai 2012 - 11:16 .


#2393
3DandBeyond

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I am not as well versed as the rest of you, but would like to point something out that may be worthy of discussion.

Of course there's rumor out there about the "Rebellion" DLC for multiplayer (supposedly). Some descriptions of it have listed new characters for MP, one of specific interest, a Phoenix. To my knowledge other than a star system, Phoenix isn't anywhere in the game. But we all know what a Phoenix is-a mythical bird that arises from the ashes to live again. What does that sound like?

All of this is of course predicated on rumor and something that's been denied, but the original rumor seemed to come from a substantial source.

#2394
Grotaiche

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The Phoenix thing seems fishy, honestly. I have read about the rumors and all, and I wonder about the actual credibility of the original article. Plus, introducing a new race at this point would only mess things a bit more (as if we needed this), in my opinion. Especially in Multiplayer.

EDIT : anyway, Chris Priestly mentions that we will probably know more about it "before the end of the month", so we'll know soon enough :)

Modifié par Grotaiche, 18 mai 2012 - 01:54 .


#2395
3DandBeyond

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Grotaiche wrote...

The Phoenix thing seems fishy, honestly. I have read about the rumors and all, and I wonder about the actual credibility of the original article. Plus, introducing a new race at this point would only mess things a bit more (as if we needed this), in my opinion. Especially in Multiplayer.

EDIT : anyway, Chris Priestly mentions that we will probably know more about it "before the end of the month", so we'll know soon enough :)


Good info-I've not really delved deeply into it, but agree that often these things are like someone lit a match and they just take off, being reported as if fact.  I will read the original from your post.  Left feeling mythical applies but to the whole story and not one character.

#2396
drayfish

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Aw maaaaaannnnn...  I missed it when things got weird. So you guys ordered a stripper for this party and it was Tali? I mean, sure, I can see that, but have you considered: a knock on the door, the music fades, there's excited giggling, and – hey, whose this? Why it's Wrex in an ill-fitting cop outfit and neckerchief, slathered in baby oil and carrying a portable stereo. Bucka-bucka-bow-bow... 'Shepard.'
 
Oh, yeah...
 
 
...And that was when my BSN account got banned.
 
 
Anyway, after all that it looks like I also missed out on things getting deep. In fact, how is it that everyone seems to be able to describe these exceptional endings that so effortlessly eclipse the current offerings? KitaSaturnyne's awesome Armageddon bug-zapper; CulturalGeekGirl's blaze out, not fade away suicide run; Sable Phoenix's you-want-to-invade-my-mind-Harby-well-how-'bout-a-little-taste-back confrontation:
 

Sable Phoenix wrote...
Shepard would have somehow boarded Harbinger, interfaced with it, and battled it inside its "mind" (in the final boss battle that, as we now know, would have been "too video-gamey").

This is a very cool idea, and I would rather have had a scene like this get too videogamey – hell, even culminate in a pixilated game of Space Invaders, with columns of Harbingers slowly descending down the screen (in their synchronised side to side motion) and Shepard (two dimensional, natch) blasting up at them – than the apathetic shuffle toward our choice we have at present. As edisnooM said, it's that pick-an-atrocity lack of agency that really claws at me. 
 
But I am really just amazed that people have the capacity to think through these better conclusions. I've genuinely tried, but haven't been able to do any of that. You all saw my one attempt literally stall with Shepard standing motionless, carnage all around her, radiant but frozen – like a film reel catching and burning up in a projector.
 
It's like I'm suffering some form of Narrative Post-Traumatic Stress. No, that sounds too dignified for my self-indulgences. Okay: it's like one of those fainting goats that collapses when it receives a fright. I'm standing in a field, chewing a mouthful of cud, thinking through the endings.  I recall the Crucible (sure, its shamelessly symbolic, maybe a little on the nose, but come on: it's a light in the darkness to banish the monsters, we gotta fire it up); I play out the scenes with Anderson and The Illusive Man (I'm not entirely buying the full-blown indoctrination of Mr. Man – it seems a little hurried, but I like the premise: a call back to all the crazed zealots who've lost their way throughout the series, so that's in too); I love the passion of Shepard, bleeding out but still scrambling for the control panel, still fighting on, tenacious, even as her world fades to black...  And then, suddenly, there's a shiny elevator, my little goat legs go weak, and I'm lying face-first in thistle.
 
When it's over I see Joker emerge from the downed Normandy (alongside Javik who clearly ran off and left me to die; although frankly I can believe it of him), and I watch him lift his head to the horizon with a weary smile. I'm stunned. Not simply because in my playthrough I would have imagined him to be a little more broken up by the loss of his love, but because he is bathed in the glow of a universe that I no longer recognise and can't reconcile, one that, as both character and player, I can participate in no further.
 
Perhaps that's why I'm so desperately clutching that last flickering ember of hope for the Indoctrination Theory, because, at least for now, I lack the capacity to overwrite those endings. Head-cannon all I want, I saw some stuff, and my imagination is so shell shocked I can't even muster a reply.
 
Thank you all for letting me mooch off your far more fertile visions.
 
 
p.s. – also, I seem to remember some really minor (but emotional) exchanges between Shepard and the Cerberus engineers Gabby and Ken that were said to be cut from development but still on the disc. Apparently it was intended for the point of their recruitment, instead of the Spectre screen. If Gabby died in ME2 Ken is pretty cut up about it.
 


#2397
Seijin8

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My bet is that Phoenix refers to ex-Cerberus agents. The two listed classes were Adepts and Vanguards, so these could be former Phantoms, which would make for some interesting gameplay.

The other possibility ***shudder with lore angst*** is that the Phoenix characters are protheans. I only mention this because people on the MP forum are constantly asking (begging on their knees, really) to play protheans... and the only prothean we have seen is indeed biotic.

So far with ME3, multiplayer has been my refuge. My little quarian infiltrator happily tralala-ing as she swings her M-98 from one (now headless) victim toward another... if I might happen to gaze upon a prothean teammate in such a thermal-clip induced trance... well... that would pretty well ruin the entirety of ME3 for me; the final bit of evidence that they had completely lost touch with their own game world.

But really, my bet is ex-Cerbs. Cerberus and Phoenix are both Greek mythological creatures related to death. Rebirth (out from under Cerberus) could very well be a "phoenix". Also, humans are generally underpowered in MP, so having some that were higher-end characters would be cool, and the foreshadowing with last week's Operation Silencer mentioned information from ex-Cerberus agents, right along with Vorcha, who are also rumored to be incoming with that next DLC.

#2398
Sable Phoenix

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To be fair, drayfish, I had headcannoned all of the above months before Mass Effect 3 came out.  I found the Lazarus Project so dissatisfying, so perfunctory, so dismissive of the universe’s lore and themes, that I had to try and do what the entirety of Mass Effect 2 didn’t and somehow reconcile it to what we had seen before, somehow give it value beyond a giant reset button meant to largely invalidate the preceding game.

What amazes me about the themes and plotlines I teased out of that mess and extrapolated ahead was not how close I got to what we were finally presented with (obviously I didn’t), but rather how those ideas seem to have been specifically targeted for a kick from the Invalidation Boot.  This tells me that these extrapolations were obvious enough (and frankly, that doesn’t surprise me, what I did wasn’t that hard -- if you read extensively, or watch any kind of entertainment media, you’ve seen dozens of variations on that kind of storyline) that somebody felt Mass Effect 3 could not simply ignore them, and had to actively dismiss them.

It also made my opinion of a certain lead writer dip even lower than it had been after Mass Effect 2, if possible.  I’ve said elsewhere that Mac Walters may be a dab hand at characterization (didn’t he write Wrex in Mass Effect 1?), a strength which was obvious in Mass Effect 2’s picaresque character-portrait focus, but he couldn’t plot his way out of a wet paper bag with a road map and a machete.  Patrick Weekes has repeatedly demonstrated a far greater grasp of the universe and the genuine emotion behind it, and although I have no evidence, I’m convinced that the reason a second-rate comic-book author was tapped for lead position over someone like him was internecine politics.  But that’s a discussion that risks derailing the thread, so I’ll leave it there.

Modifié par Sable Phoenix, 18 mai 2012 - 03:32 .


#2399
KitaSaturnyne

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CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

@KitaSaturnyne

Heh, I hope you didn't take that as me ranting about your particular idea, which is perfectly fine. And far be it for me to say you shouldn't do rewrites that preserve imperfect parts of the ending... I've been doing that forever now. It was just a sudden whim that captured me, not a judgment on your particular brand of sacrifice.

I just want to experience something that conveys cheer, and soon.

Nah, it's all good. Like I said, just some thoughts in the shower I thought I'd put out there.

On a personal note, it speaks to my frustration with a story I'm trying to get going. Give me someone else's work, like ME3, and I can tack on scenes that hopefully have more meaning and tie in better than what's there. I try to construct my own world from the ground up, however, and I can't even think of an opening scene.

@Seijin8

I didn't know the MP had to follow the lore. I figured it was just "log on, shoot people, get a secret club ending, log off" sort of thing. Is it really that tied to the universe? I mean, there aren't many Justicars, yet people can play as those all they want.

@drayfish

Thanks for your compilments. I have the feeling you'd be a great story lead for any large-scale project.

#2400
KitaSaturnyne

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A young thread that touches upon a lot of what we've discussed here.