103 réponses à ce sujet

[Piecake]

 I think this has been an occuring problem in recent bioware games.  We, as players, arent able to pick our characters motivation, we are only able to pick his tone.  We do not get to decide WHY he is doing the things he is doing.  We only get to pick whether he is a dbag or a goody goody while he is doing those things (or now crack jokes while doing it as well).  

This, I think, is a problem since I find only being able to pick tone very superficial.  What I mean is, is that you do not get to decide the why, you only get to decide how he acts.  I would like to decide both why and how my character acts.  

Now, all of the dialogue chocies do not have to keep on reiterating your motivation, and tone definitely havs a place (so long as motivation dialogue feels significant).  I also feel like it would give greater weight to tone choices because those choices will reflect your motivation.  Meaning that if you choose your motivation to be revenge, you will most likely not go with a goody goody tone in another dialouge.  You will want to keep it consistent.

The benefit of having motivation as a significant part of the dialogue choices is that it will make your character feel more like your own.  You are deciding its motivation.  You are deciding why your character is doing what he is doing.  Not Bioware.  This, I think, would help alleviate some of the frustraitions people have had with the voiced protaganist and the dialogue wheel.  They dont feel like their character is their own.  I know if I was able to decide my character's motivation, even if the game was fully voiced, had a dialogue wheel, etc, that character would feel more like my own.  More like my own creation, since i am deciding something more fundemental to his character than how he acts around people.  I am deciding why he acts.

I also think that choosing motivation would make those dialogue choices feel more significant than choosing tone, even if those choices do not impact anything in the game world.

Now, I realize that this would probably limit some of the stories you could tell since you would need to create a scenario where at least two different motivations are plausible, but I would definitely like to see it happen since I think it would be an excellent way - while keeping all your current systems (VA, dialogue wheel, etc) - to make the player feel like he is more agency, feel like he has more control over creating his character, or lets him more easily believe he is is character.

Modifié par Piecake, 16 avril 2012 - 07:19 .

[Cultist]

Both are awful. Just make a list like Origins did.
Really, this tones and motivations are like background laughter in sitcoms - so people would know - That is a joke. Laugh here.

[Maria Caliban]

Intent.



I see intent as different from motivation. Intent is what I'm trying to do while motivation is why I'm trying to do it.

[Piecake]

Cultist wrote...

Both are awful. Just make a list like Origins did.
Really, this tones and motivations are like background laughter in sitcoms - so people would know - That is a joke. Laugh here.

I dont think you get my point.  I dont mean tone and motivation icons.  I honestly dont care whether its in a dialogue wheel or completely written out.  What I want is dialogue choices where I can decide my motivation, not just decide how i say things (tone).  If that is written out great, if not, fine

Basically, what they did in BG2 where SPOILERS you get to decide if your main reason is revenge or your main reason is rescue

That is what i want.  I dont only want to decide whether i am an dbag or a nice guy while rescuing some girl, saving the world, etc.  I want to decide why i am doing those things through the dialogue options

Modifié par Piecake, 16 avril 2012 - 07:17 .

[Maria Caliban]

That's not a vs then. You could have both tone icons and moments where you decide what your motivation is.

[Piecake]

Maria Caliban wrote...

That's not a vs then. You could have both tone icons and moments where you decide what your motivation is.

I know, I say that in my first post actually.  Guess the title was a bit confusing.  Changed it so its more clear

Modifié par Piecake, 16 avril 2012 - 07:19 .

[Cultist]

Instead of implementing some new system, or addition to the existing you can just add to the dialogue lines. Like:
- I will help you
- I will help you (lie)
Oh, wait! but that won't work with dialogue wheel's limitations! So you'll hab\\ve to enjoy "yes", "no" and "investigate". Tough luck..

[Piecake]

Cultist wrote...

Instead of implementing some new system, or addition to the existing you can just add to the dialogue lines. Like:
- I will help you
- I will help you (lie)
Oh, wait! but that won't work with dialogue wheel's limitations! So you'll habve to enjoy "yes", "no" and "investigate". Tough luck..

I really dont know what you are talking about.  I dont know where get that I am pro-dialogue wheel.  What i want is not some new system or anything like that.  I just want to decide my characters motivation through the dialogue choices.  If that means we scrap the dialogue wheel and go back to full text, fine.  If they can do that with the dialogue wheel, fine.  If they cant do that with the dialogue wheel, then go back to full text.

Modifié par Piecake, 16 avril 2012 - 07:37 .

[Maria Caliban]

Cultist is just grinding a personal ax.

Personally, I like your idea. It means the NPCs show interest in the PC's thoughts and feelings, and it's a role-playing opportunity. They might even have future dialogue that reacts to your chosen motivation.

The only downside is that some people will have motivations outside of what is offered and might feel constrained. BioWare could add a 'I don't want to talk about this' option for them.

[AkiKishi]

Motivation does not really matter since DA does not track karma only approval.

[Maria Caliban]

Motivation matters when you're trying to define your character. Being able to say, "I want to save Imoen" or "I want to get the bastard that stole my soul!" is nice.

[AkiKishi]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Motivation matters when you're trying to define your character. Being able to say, "I want to save Imoen" or "I want to get the bastard that stole my soul!" is nice.

But you don't need the game to reflect that, it's whatever you feel. The only time you need the game to track motivation is if there is some sort of alignment/karma.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Motivation matters when you're trying to define your character. Being able to say, "I want to save Imoen" or "I want to get the bastard that stole my soul!" is nice.

Oh, yes. This.

A moment that really bugged me at the end of DA2 was the game dictating my intent/motivation instead of allowing my to choose it. Being diplomatic does not always mean 'I agree with what you've done 100%.' Maybe it was a problem with the paraphrase system. I don't know.

[Maria Caliban]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Motivation matters when you're trying to define your character. Being able to say, "I want to save Imoen" or "I want to get the bastard that stole my soul!" is nice.

But you don't need the game to reflect that, it's whatever you feel. The only time you need the game to track motivation is if there is some sort of alignment/karma.

Then it's a good thing I never said they needed to track your motivation.

I said that I'd like for them to do so and for that motivation to come up referenced later on.

[AkiKishi]

Maria Caliban wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Motivation matters when you're trying to define your character. Being able to say, "I want to save Imoen" or "I want to get the bastard that stole my soul!" is nice.

But you don't need the game to reflect that, it's whatever you feel. The only time you need the game to track motivation is if there is some sort of alignment/karma.

Then it's a good thing I never said they needed to track your motivation.

I said that I'd like for them to do so and for that motivation to come up referenced later on.

Which would require some sort of tracking.

[Maria Caliban]

Yes. Tracking your motivations would require tracking.

Like most everything else in the game.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 16 avril 2012 - 09:36 .

[FedericoV]

I agree with Piececake: I would really like that kind of upgrade on the actual system. Even better if motivations had an actual impact on the experience unlike BG2 where as far as I remember choosing revenge over rescue would not change the game a bit.

Btw, I don't know if it's just me but the icons are a poor rapresentation for the dialogue system. I'm not sure why but they are out of place in my opinion. I tried really hard to accept them but at the end anytime I had a dialogue I finished to ask myself "what's doing facebook in my Dragon Age?". It caused a sense of disconnect.

Even if the system has lot more depth than the DA:O's one in many ways, the icon presentation inspired a sense of superficiality and dumbness. In many ways it's the same problem of the combat system: a deep system that feel dumb because of its presentation.

Just use colours instead of icons to rapresent tones or motivations or whatever.

Modifié par FedericoV, 16 avril 2012 - 09:58 .

[Firle Fanz]

I think you have a good point here, it´s something that bothers me too - especially in DA2, but also to some degree in DAO.
I just whish for some dialogue options that give you an opportunity to state why you are doing what you do, I don´t think an internal system that tracks this is required for that (though I certainly wouldn´t complain either).
They could just be neutral options on the wheel that aren´t related to a tone - I do hope everyone is able to remember the motives of their own characters.
There are a few conversations that delve into that direction - Varric asking you what your plans for the future are, for example - but not enough and not related to the main plot.

A game that does this quite well is Fallout New Vegas (spoilers for that game ahead, beware!)

After you get shot in the head in the opening sequence you track the guy responsible for this down.
This is mandatory, but WHY you are doing it is your own decision.
You can strive for revenge or simply treat it as a mystery investigation.
You can do it because something fishy is obviously going on and you want in on it.
Or your whole goal is to get the package back that has been stolen from you to finish the delivery you´ve been charged with.
You can even simply forgive him for shooting you, although I doubt many people chose that option...
It isn´t a huge deal ingame, there are just some dialogue options that allow for this which gives you an opportunity to define your character outside of your own head.

Cultist wrote...

Instead of implementing some new system, or addition to the existing you can just add to the dialogue lines. Like:
- I will help you
- I will help you (lie)
Oh, wait! but that won't work with dialogue wheel's limitations! So you'll habve to enjoy "yes", "no" and "investigate". Tough luck..

This doesn´t relate to the topic, but I still want to point out that what you´ve suggested is perfectly possible with the dialogue wheel, I don´t know why you seem to think it isn´t
There is even a "lie" icon.
It´s only seldom implemented though.

Modifié par Firle Fanz, 16 avril 2012 - 10:47 .

[TheJediSaint]

"Motivation" to me strikes me as something that exists in the realm of the player's imagination. For example, in DA2, I decided from the start that Hawke's primary motivation was the welfare of his family. Therefore, he chose to keep Bethany home while he ventured into the Deep Roads, became active in the Mage Underground after she was forced into the Circle, and chose to save the Mages in the endgame so that he could protect her.

As such, I'm not really that concerned about being able to choose a motivation in-game. I just keep motivations that I've decided for my PC in mind when it's time to make in-game decisions.

[Pasquale1234]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Motivation matters when you're trying to define your character. Being able to say, "I want to save Imoen" or "I want to get the bastard that stole my soul!" is nice.

Oh, yes. This.

A moment that really bugged me at the end of DA2 was the game dictating my intent/motivation instead of allowing my to choose it. Being diplomatic does not always mean 'I agree with what you've done 100%.' Maybe it was a problem with the paraphrase system. I don't know.

It's been awhile, so I don't remember any specific examples offhand, but I felt like there were several times throughout DA2 where the dialogue stated - or at least implied - Hawke's motives for doing something, and it was incongruent with the Hawke I thought I was playing.

I'd love to have opportunities to state motives per the examples given, but frankly, I would settle for not having the dialogue make any assumptions about my character's motives.

[Pzykozis]

TheJediSaint wrote...

"Motivation" to me strikes me as something that exists in the realm of the player's imagination. For example, in DA2, I decided from the start that Hawke's primary motivation was the welfare of his family. Therefore, he chose to keep Bethany home while he ventured into the Deep Roads, became active in the Mage Underground after she was forced into the Circle, and chose to save the Mages in the endgame so that he could protect her.

As such, I'm not really that concerned about being able to choose a motivation in-game. I just keep motivations that I've decided for my PC in mind when it's time to make in-game decisions.

Yeah, I'm with this, making motivations a large part of the dialogue system would probably be worse for me, you can choose an array of tone and still have your own monologue of reasoning, being forced to choose between X amount of reasons and tone then forces your character into X amount of paths instead of only being limited by your imagination / what have you.

Besides I find that my major motivation of "because it will probably be funny" wouldn't really be supported, sad times. Would rather that they steer clear of any motivations at all.

Modifié par Pzykozis, 16 avril 2012 - 01:54 .

[Mmw04014]

Being able to assign my own motivations to my characters allows me to be able to play over and over again and I think if they tried to allow players to express motivation, it would limit that in a lot of ways.

I see the potential gains from it though. It was awkward in Origins when hardly anyone ever asked questions about you. They allowed a little more of that in DA2 but not a whole lot. If they do opt to expand those types of questions, I hope they make sure that we have quite a few options to choose from with an option to not answer if we chose.

[Joseph627]

i personally would like them to get rid off those tone icons, i didnt liked them at all. The voiced protagonist wasnt a problem for me but the tone's to choose from were just, horrible, every tone was over the top. I would be totally fine if they would do it like me2-3 or like origins with voice, but it would also be awesome with the deus ex, dialogue wheel, it was perfect imo, it made me always think twice which line to choose, not like da2's dialogue wheel, it became boring very quickly and you didnt even had to think anymore, i even started picking one tone as the default without even reading it anymore... for example, the romances you just had to click the "hearts" and you were in a relationship, it is just too easy imo,

[AkiKishi]

I like how DX:HR handles it, most of the time just the word is enough. Occasionally in a speech challenge knowing what will be said is very helpful. Should be said this is only the case because you get feedback through technology which would not exist in DA3.

Heart icons are a must as long as there are gay/bi characters. Don't want to be gay ninjamanced thanks.

[Dakota Strider]

Joseph627 wrote...

i personally would like them to get rid off those tone icons, i didnt liked them at all. The voiced protagonist wasnt a problem for me but the tone's to choose from were just, horrible, every tone was over the top. I would be totally fine if they would do it like me2-3 or like origins with voice, but it would also be awesome with the deus ex, dialogue wheel, it was perfect imo, it made me always think twice which line to choose, not like da2's dialogue wheel, it became boring very quickly and you didnt even had to think anymore, i even started picking one tone as the default without even reading it anymore... for example, the romances you just had to click the "hearts" and you were in a relationship, it is just too easy imo,

Exactly.  Those silly roleplay crutches were an insult to rpg players.  It is granted, that in a computer rpg, you are going to have a limited amount of choices (though, the more choices, the better).  But a person should be able to read the choice, to see if it feels most like what he/she wants to say in the situation, and then live with that choice, without some lame player aid pointing them in the appropriate color-coded direction.

----

This topic as a whole....it all comes down to giving the players more choices.  I am always for that.  The devs have to decide how big of a game they are going to make, because with every branch of choices, they have to expand the game to accomodate each choice.  

Ideally for me, the plot path for DA3 would resemble a road trip from New York to Los Angeles.  The start would be close to the same, but very soon the driver has to determine if he is going to take a nothern route, a southern route, or a central route.  Along each route, there would be different locations that you would not see, if you took one of the other two routes.  And there may be smaller choices breaking off each of the main paths.  Now in your route, there would be many things that are the same....afterall, there is usually a MacDonalds or Burger King in most small cities along the route.  And there are always semi-trucks and little old ladies driving on all roads, getting in your way, that would be the same any route you took.   But, when you reach Los Angeles, the experience you had in your travels, would be determined by the choices you made, and each person's experience would seem unique, and not just a cookie cutter train ride.   Now, when these different travellers reach Los Angeles...that is when the master story teller needs to tie the conclusion of the trips together, to get them all to the same event.  And at that event, the results will be determined by the route you took to get there, and should be very different than if you chose a different route.