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dialogue choices: I want to be able to decide Motivation, not just tone


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#101
In Exile

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Zexiv wrote...
I was thinking of DAO options when talking with companions in camp when I wrote that there were dialog choices there were some what ambigous yet could lead to different reactions.  Or times the more nice dialog options could lead to a negative re-actions or a romance etc.  While navigating those dialogs I don't nessarily want to see icons  I'd rather read the options see which I liked the most and then think about the companions responce and decide if that's the path I want to go down conversation wise. During DA2 it felt like choose heart for romance choose broken heart to end romance choose crossed swords to lower companion score.


The problem with DA2 isn't the icon. It's that for the romances there was only 1 line of romance dialogue, unlike DA:O where you had several. It's not the icon that's the problem, but the writing.

Take it easy


I'm sorry? I didn't mean to offend you.

#102
the_one_54321

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In Exile wrote...

Take it easy

I'm sorry? I didn't mean to offend you.

That's how he ends all his posts. It's like "have a good day." 

#103
nightscrawl

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Korusus wrote...

The problem with DA2's icon system is it was 99% of the time an ABC choice of Diplomatic/Sarcastic/Aggressive. That's predictable and boring. And unless you're playing a scizophrenic character, you as a player are likely to always pick the Diplomatic/Sarcastic/Aggressive choice (the same way in Mass Effect you always pick the Paragon/Renegade). It's the same problem with SWTOR in that if you want to maximize your light/dark points you're always going to select the icon you want, ignoring what line is actually delivered regardless of the paraphrase. SWTOR makes it an option to turn off the alignment gain icons. The problem with DA2 and ME is that you always know, regardless of the icons, which choice you want (Top is Diplo, Middle is Sarc, Bottom is Aggro).  It's a problem only made worse by the pavlovian response of "See correct icon, choose that option".

Really DA2's dialogue system doesn't even need the paraphrasing. They were wildly misleading anyway, and I think most players always stuck with the same tone throughout for whatever character they were playing.

I usually try to pick the response that best fits the situation, the person I'm talking to, or the views I have imagined my Hawke to have in any given play. I am positive toward Fenris; harsh with Anders and Merrill; funny with Varric and Isabela; supportive with Aveline, Bethany, Sebastian, and my mother; and so on.

This seems perfectly natural to me: you don't speak in the same way to your enemy that you do to your mother, as you do to your girl/boyfriend, or to your girl/guy pals; those relationships will vary in degrees of formality, seriousness, and intimacy. On the other hand, you may speak harshly to a child who is going to put their hand on a hot stove, or a friend who is about to walk into traffic while not paying attention. I also tend to vary my tone as the game progresses, the various situations having gotten more dire as time goes on. I only do this when I'm more concerned about the way scenes will play out, rather than having my PC develop in a certain way.

Unfortunately, DA2's system of dominant personality being chosen by the number of times you pick a certain icon -- especially near the beginning of an Act -- means that even if you don't want to, you need to keep selecting the same tonal pattern or else you will slip out of it and veer off into another. As an example of this, I'm in the middle of my first Aggressive Hawke playthough. I generally prefer the direct/gavel response over the aggressive fist if I am going to choose a red choice, especially because the fist can come across as way too harsh, when I would only prefer to be serious. My only alternative in that situation is to pick another icon. It's easier with some quests than in others to stay with the same tone.

Of course, by now I have the advantage of having played DA2 several times, so I know how things are going to turn out most of the time. In any given play, 75-85% of the dialogue choices are the same ones I always pick -- I usually play a charming/diplomatic Hawke, with various aggressive responses as the situation calls for it -- unless I am changing Hawke's personality around intentionally.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 21 avril 2012 - 09:02 .


#104
RussianSpy27

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Allan Schumacher wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

With a follow up: Are there any alternatives that you could suggest the provide greater context so that the player doesn't end up doing anything that is grossly unexpected (like suddenly romancing a character or other aspects like that)?


Yes. The Dues Ex system that I posted on the first page.


I actually enjoy the Deus Ex system (the responses themselves remind me a lot of Alpha Protocol as well, which is probably my favourite conversation system in any game.  (I also like the usage of the conversation system as a type of confrontation too).

Although the Deus Ex conversations where very directed with a specific goal (in the excellent confrontations), or just sort of standard with often binary responses (in the general conversations).


Why not just make the NPCs the focus where some NPC can only be persuaded by one tone (e.g.some dwarwen crime lord would only succomb to a threat) vs the others who could more easily be persuaded by diplomacy (a polotician, etc)?