1392 réponses à ce sujet

[The Angry One]

tractrpl wrote...

The Angry One wrote...


Failing to consider how many would die from subsequent radiation poisoning.
Also failing to consider that the Quarians have acted utterly suicidal in virtually every encounter we've had with them, they clearly don't place the same protective value on civilian life as we do.

Except the fact that quarian life seems to behave the same as human life. They had civilians and military personnel. This means you had non-combatants. When the geth militarily wiped out a city's military garrison, what happened to the citizens? Did they all go to the guns like zombies? Given Tali's nature, this doesn't seem likely. They didn't all kill Legion in the flotilla. This means that the civilians had no way of protecting themselves yet they were exterminated anyway. The Geth killing civilians doesn't fit the narrative of the story. The quarians bombing their own population centers also doesn't fit the narrative. Therefore, the writers derped. Q.E.D.

The Quarians have distinctions between military and civilians, but they still take civilians to war. They still outfit civilian ships with heavy cannons and throw them at the enemy. They still had civilian ships perform military missions.
So yeah, it's not the same.

Modifié par The Angry One, 16 avril 2012 - 09:35 .

[DJBare]

Hey, we construct nukes, quarians construct AI's

[tractrpl]

Jassu1979 wrote...

moater boat wrote...

How do I know they killed quarian babies? After the Morning war there were only 17 million quarians left alive. I don't know how many there were to begin with, but it stands to reason that there were at least several billion. That means that only a fraction of a percent of all the Quarians survived. The only possible explanation is that the Geth killed millions of Quarian infants.

Now can we all get over our irrational love affair with these psychopathic, xenophobic, backstabbing robots.


Edit: I didn't expect all these responses, I am having trouble responding to all of them. I didn't realize how many people were brainwashed...

The geth were heavily retconned between Me1 and ME2:

they started out as ME's equivalent of the cylons: synthetics bent on destroying their creators altogether, following some inscrutable path and venerating the Reapers as godlike beings. (Remember that one scene in the first game, where they're practically shown praying to that sphere of light?)

Novels that were written at this time still described how the geth had exterminated most of the quarians in a massive genocide, and only a small number of survivors was left to travel through space as homeless vagabonds.

Then, ME2 came along, and the whole concept was hauled over:
the genocidal Reaper-allies were retconned to be but a small, heretical minority, and it was established that the main body of the geth had only driven the creators out in an act of self-defense, bearing them no genuine malice and just wanting to be left alone, building their dyson sphere.

What you experience is the cognitive dissonance between the original version of the geth, and the retconned version that was implemented from the second game onwards.

Precisely! We have a retcon! So the narratives don't match!!  Yay!!! Someone gets it!

[troyk2027]

tractrpl wrote...

troyk2027 wrote...

What exactly are you arguing? That the geth are worse than the Quarians? Because the Quarians wanted to wipe out 100% of the Geth, not 99%(numbers!). Also, the geth gained consciousness and were immediately attacked, they didn't have thousands of years to develop a system of morals, they were just attacked, and thrown into a fight for their existence, at the dawn of their intelligence(hence, the "morning war").

Moater boat, you've said earlier that you consider the geth to be just machines, yet you consider them to have consciously done something morally wrong? Please elaborate.

Oh, and the current number of Quarians is 17 million, do we know if thats the number that left? Because I remember Tali saying that Quarian couples are only allowed one child. This would not maintain a stable population.

You're confusing the context. There were 10 billion quarians living prior to the morning war. At the end, there were 17 million. That means that during the course of the war, 99.83% of all Quarians died.

I've only read that there are 17 million during ME3. Is there a qoute saying 17 million is the number that escaped?

Because that would mean that the Quarians kept a stable population for 300 years while only having one baby per couple, defying math.

[CroGamer002]

DJBare wrote...

Hey, we construct nukes, quarians construct AI's

All species created nukes and A.I.'s.


OK, Krogans and Drell didn't created A.I.'s.

[moater boat]

Gogzilla wrote...

moater boat wrote...

It isn't just in my head. There is no way that there would be so much destruction without the methodical and precise genocide of the Quarians by the Geth. As it was said earlier, wiping out over 99% of a species like that doesn't "just happen" by misusing chemical weapons. It was an extermination of the Quarians, and the only culprit is the Geth. This one doesn't take Sherlock Holmes to figure out.

Is it more justified to kill the geth , then it is to to kill quarians.
     Yes, of course. They weren't truly alive until ME3. also. than not then

How many programs did the Geth loose in the war ?

     Doesn't matter. See above
How many times did the quarians attempt genocide on the Geth ?
     Not genocide, see above

If it was 99% and not a 100% , then that was no accident .
     the geth saw no logical reason to chase them. This is irreverent

They fought the mouning war for their survival.
     Survival implies being alive. See above

The fact that they let the quarians go at all is proof that genocide was not their aim.
      So they would have stopped at 17 million even if the Geth didn't flee? Speculation, and stupid speculation at       that

What ever consequences of war forced the Geth to exterminate the quarian population in that fashion. They did so to ensure their survival not their creators destruction.
     I will ask one more time. Why did the Geth kill babies if their goal was to defend themselves. It's the title of the question for crying out loud. I shouldn't need to keep repeating it

There was the Quarian resolution to destroy and the Geth resoultion to survive.
      this again?

Why they did, what they did, was probably done after they were left with no other choice.
       what about the "do what you're told like a good machine" choice?

I think they realiesed the Quarians would never stop fighting, never stop trying to detroy them. Given all the data
they had they did what they needed to do.

Nothing more , nothing less.

[T-0pel]

The Angry One wrote...

tractrpl wrote...

The Angry One wrote...


Failing to consider how many would die from subsequent radiation poisoning.
Also failing to consider that the Quarians have acted utterly suicidal in virtually every encounter we've had with them, they clearly don't place the same protective value on civilian life as we do.

Except the fact that quarian life seems to behave the same as human life. They had civilians and military personnel. This means you had non-combatants. When the geth militarily wiped out a city's military garrison, what happened to the citizens? Did they all go to the guns like zombies? Given Tali's nature, this doesn't seem likely. They didn't all kill Legion in the flotilla. This means that the civilians had no way of protecting themselves yet they were exterminated anyway. The Geth killing civilians doesn't fit the narrative of the story. The quarians bombing their own population centers also doesn't fit the narrative. Therefore, the writers derped. Q.E.D.

The Quarians have distinctions between military and civilians, but they still take civilians to war. They still outfit civilian ships with heavy cannons and throw them at the enemy. They still had civilian ships perform military missions.
So yeah, it's not the same.

Yeah I agree with angry one. That life-ship outfitted with canonns. Does that also not fit the Quarins backstory?

[tractrpl]

The Angry One wrote...

tractrpl wrote...

The Angry One wrote...


Failing to consider how many would die from subsequent radiation poisoning.
Also failing to consider that the Quarians have acted utterly suicidal in virtually every encounter we've had with them, they clearly don't place the same protective value on civilian life as we do.

Except the fact that quarian life seems to behave the same as human life. They had civilians and military personnel. This means you had non-combatants. When the geth militarily wiped out a city's military garrison, what happened to the citizens? Did they all go to the guns like zombies? Given Tali's nature, this doesn't seem likely. They didn't all kill Legion in the flotilla. This means that the civilians had no way of protecting themselves yet they were exterminated anyway. The Geth killing civilians doesn't fit the narrative of the story. The quarians bombing their own population centers also doesn't fit the narrative. Therefore, the writers derped. Q.E.D.

The Quarians have distinctions between military and civilians, but they still take civilians to war. They still outfit civilian ships with heavy cannons and throw them at the enemy. They still had civilian ships perform military missions.
So yeah, it's not the same.

Your equating the dire situation the quarians were in during ME3 with the situation on Rannoch during the morning war. Starships are like submarines: floating coffins. But cities are not. With a cities defenses eliminated, there's no way for the civilian population to even defend themselves. What would they do, beat their arm on them? No. This scenario was not thought of by the writers.

I'll say it again so you'll understand. The thought of geth going house by house exterminating quarians doesn't fit the narrative. The thought of quarians nuclear bombing their own population centers also doesn't fit the narrative. In order to kill 99.83% of all quarians, one or both scenarios has to happen. Since neither did, the only logical conclusion is that the writers derped. Q.E.D.

[Lwyn]

So much assumptions, can't handle it all...
Where is it stated that 99.83% of quarian population died in the hands of the geth, or even during the Morning War? The population could have easily dwindled after the exile and later stabilized to 17 million aboard the flotilla.
Also, nuclear winter is caused by the ash raised by the explosions that then gathers in the atmosphere blocking sunlight and cooling the planet. Radiation is different issue entirely.

[tractrpl]

troyk2027 wrote...

tractrpl wrote...

troyk2027 wrote...

What exactly are you arguing? That the geth are worse than the Quarians? Because the Quarians wanted to wipe out 100% of the Geth, not 99%(numbers!). Also, the geth gained consciousness and were immediately attacked, they didn't have thousands of years to develop a system of morals, they were just attacked, and thrown into a fight for their existence, at the dawn of their intelligence(hence, the "morning war").

Moater boat, you've said earlier that you consider the geth to be just machines, yet you consider them to have consciously done something morally wrong? Please elaborate.

Oh, and the current number of Quarians is 17 million, do we know if thats the number that left? Because I remember Tali saying that Quarian couples are only allowed one child. This would not maintain a stable population.

You're confusing the context. There were 10 billion quarians living prior to the morning war. At the end, there were 17 million. That means that during the course of the war, 99.83% of all Quarians died.

I've only read that there are 17 million during ME3. Is there a qoute saying 17 million is the number that escaped?

Because that would mean that the Quarians kept a stable population for 300 years while only having one baby per couple, defying math.

It's in the codex. The quarians have neither increased nor decreased their population. They're like the keepers.

[troyk2027]

moater boat wrote...

Gogzilla wrote...

moater boat wrote...

It isn't just in my head. There is no way that there would be so much destruction without the methodical and precise genocide of the Quarians by the Geth. As it was said earlier, wiping out over 99% of a species like that doesn't "just happen" by misusing chemical weapons. It was an extermination of the Quarians, and the only culprit is the Geth. This one doesn't take Sherlock Holmes to figure out.

Is it more justified to kill the geth , then it is to to kill quarians.
     Yes, of course. They weren't truly alive until ME3. also. than not then

How many programs did the Geth loose in the war ?

     Doesn't matter. See above
How many times did the quarians attempt genocide on the Geth ?
     Not genocide, see above

If it was 99% and not a 100% , then that was no accident .
     the geth saw no logical reason to chase them. This is irreverent

They fought the mouning war for their survival.
     Survival implies being alive. See above

The fact that they let the quarians go at all is proof that genocide was not their aim.
      So they would have stopped at 17 million even if the Geth didn't flee? Speculation, and stupid speculation at       that

What ever consequences of war forced the Geth to exterminate the quarian population in that fashion. They did so to ensure their survival not their creators destruction.
     I will ask one more time. Why did the Geth kill babies if their goal was to defend themselves. It's the title of the question for crying out loud. I shouldn't need to keep repeating it

There was the Quarian resolution to destroy and the Geth resoultion to survive.
      this again?

Why they did, what they did, was probably done after they were left with no other choice.
       what about the "do what you're told like a good machine" choice?

I think they realiesed the Quarians would never stop fighting, never stop trying to detroy them. Given all the data
they had they did what they needed to do.

Nothing more , nothing less.

They weren't individuals until ME3, they were sentient.

And if we're at the point where we're argueing about whether or not they're alive, we aren't going to come to any morally relevent conclusions on this matter.

[tractrpl]

Lwyn wrote...

So much assumptions, can't handle it all...
Where is it stated that 99.83% of quarian population died in the hands of the geth, or even during the Morning War? The population could have easily dwindled after the exile and later stabilized to 17 million aboard the flotilla.
Also, nuclear winter is caused by the ash raised by the explosions that then gathers in the atmosphere blocking sunlight and cooling the planet. Radiation is different issue entirely.

It's stated that 10 billion quarians were alive at the beginning of the morning war. 17 million divided by 10 billion equals 0.0017, so 1-0.0017 is 0.9983 so 99.83%.

[moater boat]

Tony208 wrote...

moater boat wrote...

The Angry One wrote...


Oh my god.

THEY
WOULD
USE
CHEMICAL
WEAPONS
AGAINST
OTHER
QUARIANS

YOU
STILL
HAVE
NO
PROOF

And where's your proof that Geth killed babies? 

If they didn't who did?
Quarian 1 "Hey, that baby looks like he might grow up to be a Geth sympathist."
Quarian 2 "Hmm, you're right, we better just take him down now before he get's old enough to be a problem"

Now you can say bombs or give other collateral damage explanations, but none of these would account for such a high number of deaths. The only explanation is intentional extermination.

[Elyiia]

tractrpl wrote...

You're confusing the context. There were 10 billion quarians living prior to the morning war. At the end, there were 17 million. That means that during the course of the war, 99.83% of all Quarians died.

There were 10 billion and 17 million managed to escape, that's all we know.

We don't know that all Quarians managed to escape. All Quarians left behind, if they managed to avoid the Geth, would have died to the toxic atmosphere.

[troyk2027]

tractrpl wrote...

troyk2027 wrote...

tractrpl wrote...

troyk2027 wrote...

What exactly are you arguing? That the geth are worse than the Quarians? Because the Quarians wanted to wipe out 100% of the Geth, not 99%(numbers!). Also, the geth gained consciousness and were immediately attacked, they didn't have thousands of years to develop a system of morals, they were just attacked, and thrown into a fight for their existence, at the dawn of their intelligence(hence, the "morning war").

Moater boat, you've said earlier that you consider the geth to be just machines, yet you consider them to have consciously done something morally wrong? Please elaborate.

Oh, and the current number of Quarians is 17 million, do we know if thats the number that left? Because I remember Tali saying that Quarian couples are only allowed one child. This would not maintain a stable population.

You're confusing the context. There were 10 billion quarians living prior to the morning war. At the end, there were 17 million. That means that during the course of the war, 99.83% of all Quarians died.

I've only read that there are 17 million during ME3. Is there a qoute saying 17 million is the number that escaped?

Because that would mean that the Quarians kept a stable population for 300 years while only having one baby per couple, defying math.

It's in the codex. The quarians have neither increased nor decreased their population. They're like the keepers.

Alright, I'll admit I was wrong on that point, I thought it might of been stated somewhere, but I wanted to be sure.

My other points stand, however.

[Tleining]

tractrpl wrote...

No, it wouldn't. Chernobyl is still unsafe, and that's only one incident. Imagine billions of Chernobyls. It would take thousands of years to eliminate the nuclear materials floating in the atmosphere. Besides, even a nuclear war is unlikely to kill 99.83% of all quarians. Even if all the nuclear weapons that ever existed in all of our arsenals were to be detonated, it would be millions of times less devastating than the Chixilub event that wiped out the dinosaurs. Many scientists doubt that even such an even could even wipe out humans, I mean, we're more numerous than rats at this point. 

So even a nuclear war couldn't kill 99.83% of all quarians, perhaps killing, at best 50% or even 70%. This still means that the geth would have to go house to house, crevice by crevice, cave by cave, hunting down every quarian that moved.

correct me if i'm wrong, but wouldn't a Ship crashing from Orbit cause pretty widespread damage that could resemble or at least be described as a nuclear winter (caused damage like a nuclear winter)? I mean we have impact winter and volcanic winter, but all three are basically the same thing, the last two just don't have the radiation.

[tractrpl]

Lwyn wrote...

So much assumptions, can't handle it all...
Where is it stated that 99.83% of quarian population died in the hands of the geth, or even during the Morning War? The population could have easily dwindled after the exile and later stabilized to 17 million aboard the flotilla.
Also, nuclear winter is caused by the ash raised by the explosions that then gathers in the atmosphere blocking sunlight and cooling the planet. Radiation is different issue entirely.

Also, that's the problem. It doesn't precisely state HOW 99.83% of all quarians died. It only states that only 17 million survived. But if you think about it deeply, either they were killed by target strikes, perhaps nuclear strikes, which doens't fit the narrative, by extermination, which doesn't fit the narrative, or the quarians killed themselves, which doesn't fit the narrative. Since nothing fits the narrative then the writers derped. Q.E.D.

[DJBare]

troyk2027 wrote...
And if we're at the point where we're argueing about whether or not they're alive, we aren't going to come to any morally relevent conclusions on this matter.

I think there is one moral relevance, uncertainty

[moater boat]

Meltemph wrote...

moater boat wrote...

T-0pel wrote...

How manby babies do you think the Krogan killed?

I don't know, but you don't see a majority of people on these forums condemning all Salarians, Turains, and Asari to death for what they did to the Krogan. People see that situation in a fairly unbiased way. The same can't be said for the Geth/Quarian conflict.

Probably has something to do with the fact that the Quarians created their own problem. That kinda colors the water a bit, dont ya think?

Did you miss the whole "uplifted Krogan" storyline?

[linkrulesx10]

I feel sorry for the geth and admire their ability to forgive even if thats not what it really is.

I do feel there is something off with the 99.83%, I doubt it was caused by the geth unless:
There was some sort of civil war, possible WMD *evidence by concensus mission*
Some eezo or other issue poisoning the planet *poisoning evidence legion convo ME2*
Every quarian took up guns and when the parents died, no one was left to take care of crying babies *evidence in how the flotilla acts to war... send in ALL the ships, even the civilian ones!*
hell, it could be a combo of all three.


Retcon could be another explaining factor but I prefer IC explanations. Keep in mind that only the quarians were around to tell the story till legion showed up in ME2 so anything in ME1 would be highly slanted to the quarians personal beliefs, so it may not be as much of a retcon, more the universe just didn't know the truth.

[Flextt]

"Did the Geth exterminate a vast amount of Quarian babies?"
"Does EDI's body have a vagina? She is a fully functional infiltration unit. Can she be infiltrated?"

Guys, I don't think this is the stuff writers think about when they make up background stories. But for the sake of arguing, my thoughts are:
- The Quarians created the Geth. The possible consequences of a networked intelligence are forseeable, if its accessable processing power constantly rises (which can be paraphrased as: building more Geth)
- When the Geth were at the brink of achieving sentience, the Quarians started an all-out genocide against the Geth who were barely children psychologically and probably under a high amount of stress due to their sentience.
- The Quarians continued their war and remained aggressive as long as they were confident to be victorious. Once the tides changed, they were pressured to flee from Rannoch after inflichting horrendous losses of life among both sides. (I think we are forgetting Geth losses)
- As far as I know, there is no accurate number of how many Quarians boarded the Migrant Fleet at the very beginning. Probably there were a lot of additional casulties caused by ununified escape, lack of resources and health problems (immune system collapsing).
- I still think an extermination rate of 90% is very likely, which is obviously monstrous, but on the other hand... the Quarians created the Geth. When their labor force achieved sentience, they went all-out on them and continued to do until almost extinct. The moment they ceased hostilities however, peace was possible... I still think the Quarians are at fault, both morally and historically.

[Meltemph]

moater boat wrote...

Meltemph wrote...

moater boat wrote...

T-0pel wrote...

How manby babies do you think the Krogan killed?

I don't know, but you don't see a majority of people on these forums condemning all Salarians, Turains, and Asari to death for what they did to the Krogan. People see that situation in a fairly unbiased way. The same can't be said for the Geth/Quarian conflict.

Probably has something to do with the fact that the Quarians created their own problem. That kinda colors the water a bit, dont ya think?

Did you miss the whole "uplifted Krogan" storyline?

Did you miss this bug infestation wreaking havok on the galaxy?

[oxdarkfirexo]

I think the reason that the Geth did kill millions of Quarians, even infants was most probably the fact that they are still machines. They were able to act coldly and kill infants without empathy because they couldn't feel empathy or guilt. Yes they have evolved over the three hundred years since but back then they will still struggling to understand themselves. This is why they probably were capable of some of the actions that they did.

Also consider humanity. In our past we have killed children in their homes before, long before we came up with Rules of War. The Geth were at the stage were they are learning how to fight their first war. To us, they have done some horrible war crimes, but we only know that because we have committed those crimes in the past and learnt from it, making sure we don't do it again. The Geth were doing it for the first time. They probably learnt after the Mourning War that it was wrong and decided not to do it ever again.

The Geth are a very young society compared to societies like the Asari and the Salarians. They are still learning about the Rules of War and about ethics and morals. Don't judge them as horrible beings like the Reapers, simply because they have committed atrocities in the past when they were still learning how to be independant and were fighting for their very survival. I know that Humanity is capable of some terrible things when they are under threat of extinction and are fighting for their very survival. The Geth are no different in this resolve.

[Tleining]

troyk2027 wrote...

I've only read that there are 17 million during ME3. Is there a qoute saying 17 million is the number that escaped?

Because that would mean that the Quarians kept a stable population for 300 years while only having one baby per couple, defying math.

Tali explains that in ME1. They a one baby per couple rule, but everytime the population starts to decrease the "ban" on more children is lifted. Once the Numbers have stabilized it's implemented again. Micromanaging, but when you live on a Ship, it shouldn't be that hard.

[moater boat]

The Angry One wrote...

moater boat wrote...

T-0pel wrote...

How manby babies do you think the Krogan killed?

I don't know, but you don't see a majority of people on these forums condemning all Salarians, Turains, and Asari to death for what they did to the Krogan. People see that situation in a fairly unbiased way. The same can't be said for the Geth/Quarian conflict.

Maybe because the Geth have actively demonstrated a commitment to peace, a desire to co-exist with the Quarians, no desire for revenge despite all the crimes committed against them and, oh yeah, the Quarian leadership are a bunch of idiots.

I don't think I would call killing every organic that comes near them for 300 years, and then allying yourself with an enemy that wants to wipe out all intelligent life a commitment to peace...

Or did you forget about that, like so many other brainwashed people.