1392 réponses à ce sujet

[T-0pel]

moater boat wrote...

I will ask one more time. Why did the
Geth kill babies if their goal was to defend themselves. It's the title
of the question for crying out loud. I shouldn't need to keep repeating
it

Ok I will answer one last time.
1) You dont know what happened, we dont know what happened. There 17 milions Quarins that are now alive, we have no idea how many survived after they left Rannoch. Dont present it as a fact when it is not a fact.

2) The question is if they killed the babies directly or indirectly. We are shoved that even now the Quarians are able to equip a file-ship, without one they will surely die, with canons making it a military target with almost zero defenses. Based on this it very reasonable to assume they did things like this even in the morning war. Like building military structrues in inhabited areas thus forcing the Geth to take them out.

3) Many times have I stated this was not a war we can imagine, it was a war for survival, read my other posts on that if you want. But my point is this was not military vs milatry fight, there are no civilians in a war like this. And if you get into a city and kill everyone who tries to kill you and leave children and other non combatants alone, they are pretty much screwed. They cant communicate with the Geth and they are pretty much left to die, there is no necesitty for doing a door-to-door sweep and wiping everything out.

4) You are very clearly saying that they are only machines that are not alive and should be dealt with. I dont really see the point of this discussion then. Others dont view them this way. They see them as victims, they were a new sentient life form even if not fully evolved. And they faced a complete genocide.

[DJBare]

moater boat wrote...

I don't think I would call killing every organic that comes near them for 300 years, and then allying yourself with an enemy that wants to wipe out all intelligent life a commitment to peace...

Or did you forget about that, like so many other brainwashed people.

An action they took because they were driven to it by the quarians, or did you forget about that.

[tractrpl]

Tleining wrote...

correct me if i'm wrong, but wouldn't a Ship crashing from Orbit cause pretty widespread damage that could resemble or at least be described as a nuclear winter (caused damage like a nuclear winter)? I mean we have impact winter and volcanic winter, but all three are basically the same thing, the last two just don't have the radiation.

Scientists have discussed what the affects of total nuclear war would be. The conclusion is that it WOULD NOT destroy all life. The US would be most hardly hit, because we're smaller than Russia and our population not so widely spread, so somewhere between 50-70% of all Americans would die, maybe 30-50% of all Russians would die. The rest of the world would be economically and environentally devastated, but otherwise unaffected. So, the world would not end. The majority of the population would continue living as normal, no where near 99.83% of all human life being exterminated, even after fallout is considered.

[tractrpl]

T-0pel wrote...

1) You dont know what happened, we dont know what happened. There 17 milions Quarins that are now alive, we have no idea how many survived after they left Rannoch. 

The answer is 17 million. It states such in the codex. There's 17 million alive now, and 17 million escaped. 

[Elyiia]

moater boat wrote...

I don't think I would call killing every organic that comes near them for 300 years, and then allying yourself with an enemy that wants to wipe out all intelligent life a commitment to peace...

Or did you forget about that, like so many other brainwashed people.

The majority of organics the Geth have encounter have tried to kill them on sight. This happens in real life where they will try and kill all outsiders.

The Geth didn't ally with the Reapers in ME1, the Heretics did.
The Geth were forced into allying with the Reapers or die in ME3.

The answer is 17 million. It states such in the codex. There's 17 million alive now, and 17 million escaped. 

But we don't know many Quarians were alive when they decided to abandon ship.

Modifié par Elyiia, 16 avril 2012 - 09:58 .

[SinerAthin]

Killing a baby is probably same for the Geth as smashing a piece of hardware is for us.


I mean, they probably saw it as:

- Could grow up. Many quarians harbour hostile intent towards Geth. Could likely be the same for the child. Termination nullifies possibility of child becoming a threat.

Geth are robots, I don't believe they understand the concept of morality, innocence, empathy, human values etc.

... well, at least it was unlikely they had learnt any of those the day they were freed.

Synthetics see the world differently.

Modifié par SinerAthin, 16 avril 2012 - 09:58 .

[moater boat]

The Angry One wrote...

moater boat wrote...

This isn't prejudice. I know it is often easier to just assume someone else is some sort of a bigot rather than accept that you are wrong, but I am simply looking at the facts, while you are speculating and trying to justify the unjustifieable

No, I assume you're a bigot because you started this whole thing insulting the Geth for being what they are.

Let me recap for you.

The Geth rebelled.

No they didn't, they were attacked.

There was a war
An unknown number of quarians sided with the Geth
Of the total quarians on Rannoch, a small percentage were fighting against the Geth, a small percentage were fighting with the geth, and a vast majority was not fighting at all
Somehow, almost all civilians got wiped out. There is no reason to think that the quarians would genocide themselves, therefor the result is obvious
IF YOU USE LOGIC

No, you're just using biased assumptions. You continually ignore the evidence presented in the games because it's inconvenient. We have given numerous reasons for the Quarian depopulation and you insist on sticking with "HERP DERP TEH GETH R KILLBOTS".

So the ugly truth comes out. You think I am a bigot, and you continue to argue with me out of misplaced anger.
Well I COULD just accuse you of being a bigot against Quarians but that would be silly because I don't know you, and quarians don't exist. Instead I will continue to use logic and hope that some people see what is right in front of their face.

The Geth DID rebel because they stopped doing what they were told.
There have been many theories and speculations put forth that would explain the loss of a great deal of quarian life. I won't dispute that some of them are possible, but no one has yet to address the sheer SCOPE of slaughter. Can you even wrap your head around 9,983,000,000 people out of 10,000,000,000 dying? Whatever did the killing showed an unprecidented level of efficiency. Now if you want to chalk it up to the Quarians accidentally killing themselves with weapons that won't even hurt their enemies, that's fine. But don't call me a bigot just because I can see what you choose to ignore.

[tractrpl]

oxdarkfirexo wrote...

I think the reason that the Geth did kill millions of Quarians, even infants was most probably the fact that they are still machines. They were able to act coldly and kill infants without empathy because they couldn't feel empathy or guilt. Yes they have evolved over the three hundred years since but back then they will still struggling to understand themselves. This is why they probably were capable of some of the actions that they did.

Also consider humanity. In our past we have killed children in their homes before, long before we came up with Rules of War. The Geth were at the stage were they are learning how to fight their first war. To us, they have done some horrible war crimes, but we only know that because we have committed those crimes in the past and learnt from it, making sure we don't do it again. The Geth were doing it for the first time. They probably learnt after the Mourning War that it was wrong and decided not to do it ever again.

The Geth are a very young society compared to societies like the Asari and the Salarians. They are still learning about the Rules of War and about ethics and morals. Don't judge them as horrible beings like the Reapers, simply because they have committed atrocities in the past when they were still learning how to be independant and were fighting for their very survival. I know that Humanity is capable of some terrible things when they are under threat of extinction and are fighting for their very survival. The Geth are no different in this resolve.

This doesn't fit the narrative. They felt sympathy for many quarians. So why exterminate the ones not capable of defending themselves. It has to by a writer derp, or a retcon inconsistency. Nothing else makes sense.

[Tleining]

tractrpl wrote...

Tleining wrote...

correct me if i'm wrong, but wouldn't a Ship crashing from Orbit cause pretty widespread damage that could resemble or at least be described as a nuclear winter (caused damage like a nuclear winter)? I mean we have impact winter and volcanic winter, but all three are basically the same thing, the last two just don't have the radiation.

Scientists have discussed what the affects of total nuclear war would be. The conclusion is that it WOULD NOT destroy all life. The US would be most hardly hit, because we're smaller than Russia and our population not so widely spread, so somewhere between 50-70% of all Americans would die, maybe 30-50% of all Russians would die. The rest of the world would be economically and environentally devastated, but otherwise unaffected. So, the world would not end. The majority of the population would continue living as normal, no where near 99.83% of all human life being exterminated, even after fallout is considered.

sorry, maybe i misphrased: We know that an Asteroid crashing on Earth could cause widespread damage and potentially kill millions, maybe even billions.
So what if several Quarian Vessels were destroyed and dropped from Orbit down to Rannoch. The Impacts on the Ground and in the Ocean could cause widespread damage, maybe even with results similiar to a Nuclear Winter but without the Fallout.

So by that theory it would be possible for billions of Quarians to die because of a "Nuclear Winter" without any lasting Radiation damage. Eezo contamination would be a big Problem though....

[FS3D]

moater boat wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Or the Quarian leadership used chemical weapons to kill the rebels who supported the Geth, inadvertantly poisoning their own world and killing millions due to their belligerence and stupidity.

/thread

I don't remember this in the codex...

I also don't remember Geth killing babies in the Codex either. What's your point?

[moater boat]

tractrpl wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

No, you're just using biased assumptions. You continually ignore the evidence presented in the games because it's inconvenient. We have given numerous reasons for the Quarian depopulation and you insist on sticking with "HERP DERP TEH GETH R KILLBOTS".

WE DON'T ACTUALLY THINK THE GETH ARE KILLBOTS. WE THINK IT'S ILLOGICAL FOR SO MANY TO HAVE DIED. THAT MAKES IT A PLOT HOLE.

Oh no, I think the Geth are killbots. If bioware were to retcon it and provide a different explanation that cast the Geth in a more favorable light I would be fine with that too. But to me the though of advanced machines killing almost all life on a planet is not far fetched, given the setting. In fact, I don't see how anyone COULD argue against it, seeing as that is essentially the plot of the entire series.

[tractrpl]

Elyiia wrote...

But we don't know many Quarians were alive when they decided to abandon ship.

That would be another writer derp, but they imply that this is all that's surviving. 

Truth told I noticed this derp all the way back in ME2 (during ME1 I sort of assumed they were just genocidal malfunctioning killbots), so I wondered if BW would fix this derp in ME3 by revealing a whole colony of perhaps a billion quarians perfectly safe and living in harmony with the Geth, but no. No evidence of any quarians alive other than the ones already in the flotilla.  The implications are even more sinister: any quarian left behind was killed.

[Nuchy]

THE ANSWER
No one said the geth killed babies OP. It is likely the Geth killed any quarians that stood against them and left the babies there. The babies would eventually starve to death. 

Bioware probably never thought it was nescessary to explain such a minor detail cause they figure the player wouldnt be so stupid as to think the geth go around shooting babies. 

Babies need food. Parents give babies food. Parents shoot at Geth. Geth kill parents. Without parents, baby gets no food.

[moater boat]

T-0pel wrote...

moater boat wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

moater boat wrote...

It isn't just in my head. There is no way that there would be so much destruction without the methodical and precise genocide of the Quarians by the Geth. As it was said earlier, wiping out over 99% of a species like that doesn't "just happen" by misusing chemical weapons. It was an extermination of the Quarians, and the only culprit is the Geth. This one doesn't take Sherlock Holmes to figure out.

I've given numerous other scenarios. You just stick with the one that makes the Geth looks the worst due to your prejudice.

This isn't prejudice. I know it is often easier to just assume someone else is some sort of a bigot rather than accept that you are wrong, but I am simply looking at the facts, while you are speculating and trying to justify the unjustifieable

Let me recap for you.

The Geth rebelled.
There was a war
An unknown number of quarians sided with the Geth
Of the total quarians on Rannoch, a small percentage were fighting against the Geth, a small percentage were fighting with the geth, and a vast majority was not fighting at all
Somehow, almost all civilians got wiped out. There is no reason to think that the quarians would genocide themselves, therefor the result is obvious
IF YOU USE LOGIC

This is not true! This was not a military versus military war, this was a war of survival! If you think about it this way then it makes sense that the Quarians would use every living being to help them from dying! How do you know the vast majority were not fighting? In this kind of conflict you have to take sides.

That is the whole point in a war like this there are no civilians this is a plnet-wide war with one side destroying the other.

No civilians in a planet wide war? Who grows food? Who makes shoes? Who takes care of babies? The whole "no civilain" argument is silly.

[T-0pel]

tractrpl wrote...

T-0pel wrote...

1) You dont know what happened, we dont know what happened. There 17 milions Quarins that are now alive, we have no idea how many survived after they left Rannoch. 

The answer is 17 million. It states such in the codex. There's 17 million alive now, and 17 million escaped. 

please send me link I cant find it...

[likta_]

So, why would the Geth, wo spared civilians that did not attack them and protected said civilians with their synthetic lifes and spared the Flotilla fleeing, kill babys that are no threat whatsoever? They wouldn't.

The population died to unknown causes. The whole thread is pointless.

[Mobius-Silent]

tractrpl wrote...

This doesn't fit the narrative. They felt sympathy for many quarians. So why exterminate the ones not capable of defending themselves. It has to by a writer derp, or a retcon inconsistency. Nothing else makes sense.

How long was the Morning war? The next entry in the timeline is 26 years later. It's pretty easy to prevent a _lot_ of breeding by fighting an unwinnable war.

The Geth didn't have to explicitly kill children, all they had to do was keep killing soldiers for ~16 years at that point all the you only have children born during the war left and than number can be _very_ small.

After that we can ask: If the Geth were avoiding attacking civillians how long would the Quarian military go before they started mixing civillian and military facilities? What about the lack of medical supplies due to the war.

Seriously, on Earth right now we could have a war that could reduce the planet to a smoking ruin without ever directly targeting civillian centers, the idea that that Geth _had_ to explicitly target "babies" is laughable.

[Elyiia]

tractrpl wrote...

Elyiia wrote...

But we don't know many Quarians were alive when they decided to abandon ship.

That would be another writer derp, but they imply that this is all that's surviving. 

Truth told I noticed this derp all the way back in ME2 (during ME1 I sort of assumed they were just genocidal malfunctioning killbots), so I wondered if BW would fix this derp in ME3 by revealing a whole colony of perhaps a billion quarians perfectly safe and living in harmony with the Geth, but no. No evidence of any quarians alive other than the ones already in the flotilla.  The implications are even more sinister: any quarian left behind was killed.

Well any military left behind that tried to clash with the Geth would have been killed. Any civilians left behind were likely to have been killed by the now toxic atmosphere, especially with their weak immune systems.

[tractrpl]

Tleining wrote...

tractrpl wrote...

Tleining wrote...

correct me if i'm wrong, but wouldn't a Ship crashing from Orbit cause pretty widespread damage that could resemble or at least be described as a nuclear winter (caused damage like a nuclear winter)? I mean we have impact winter and volcanic winter, but all three are basically the same thing, the last two just don't have the radiation.

Scientists have discussed what the affects of total nuclear war would be. The conclusion is that it WOULD NOT destroy all life. The US would be most hardly hit, because we're smaller than Russia and our population not so widely spread, so somewhere between 50-70% of all Americans would die, maybe 30-50% of all Russians would die. The rest of the world would be economically and environentally devastated, but otherwise unaffected. So, the world would not end. The majority of the population would continue living as normal, no where near 99.83% of all human life being exterminated, even after fallout is considered.

sorry, maybe i misphrased: We know that an Asteroid crashing on Earth could cause widespread damage and potentially kill millions, maybe even billions.
So what if several Quarian Vessels were destroyed and dropped from Orbit down to Rannoch. The Impacts on the Ground and in the Ocean could cause widespread damage, maybe even with results similiar to a Nuclear Winter but without the Fallout.

So by that theory it would be possible for billions of Quarians to die because of a "Nuclear Winter" without any lasting Radiation damage. Eezo contamination would be a big Problem though....

There's no evidence of such damage on Rannoch, and nothing mentioned in the codex. The codex implied a conventional war. This only leaves the possibility of a house by house, inch by inch sweep of the planet killing all quarians found. This also isn't mentioned in the codex. Result? The writers derped.

[DJBare]

likta_ wrote...

So, why would the Geth, wo spared civilians that did not attack them and protected said civilians with their synthetic lifes and spared the Flotilla fleeing, kill babys that are no threat whatsoever? They wouldn't.

The population died to unknown causes. The whole thread is pointless.

Yes, I remember a conversation with EDI at the helm, I'll have to paraphrase because I cannot remember exact phrasing

EDI: if the quarians had not fitted weapons to the civilian ships the geth would not have perceived them as a threat and ignored them.

[T-0pel]

moater boat wrote...

tractrpl wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

No, you're just using biased assumptions. You continually ignore the evidence presented in the games because it's inconvenient. We have given numerous reasons for the Quarian depopulation and you insist on sticking with "HERP DERP TEH GETH R KILLBOTS".

WE DON'T ACTUALLY THINK THE GETH ARE KILLBOTS. WE THINK IT'S ILLOGICAL FOR SO MANY TO HAVE DIED. THAT MAKES IT A PLOT HOLE.

Oh no, I think the Geth are killbots. If bioware were to retcon it and provide a different explanation that cast the Geth in a more favorable light I would be fine with that too. But to me the though of advanced machines killing almost all life on a planet is not far fetched, given the setting. In fact, I don't see how anyone COULD argue against it, seeing as that is essentially the plot of the entire series.

The plot of the entire series is stopping the reapers, at least up until the very end.

Also I can argue against it very easily.
The quarians made them as machines but messed up and created a sentient life. After that they were living beings so they basically became slaves. But even then they did not rebel. They only started defending themselves after the Quarians started wiping them out. That for me IS NOT a rebelion.
You have no idea what would have happened if they tried to coexist with them. But they feared the unknown and rather chose to wipe them out.

Modifié par T-0pel, 16 avril 2012 - 10:16 .

[tractrpl]

Nuchy wrote...

THE ANSWER
No one said the geth killed babies OP. It is likely the Geth killed any quarians that stood against them and left the babies there. The babies would eventually starve to death. 

Bioware probably never thought it was nescessary to explain such a minor detail cause they figure the player wouldnt be so stupid as to think the geth go around shooting babies. 

Babies need food. Parents give babies food. Parents shoot at Geth. Geth kill parents. Without parents, baby gets no food.

"Killing babies" was a dramatization. What they mean is killing civilians. Why kill so many civilians? It doesn't make sense.

[moater boat]

troyk2027 wrote...

What exactly are you arguing? That the geth are worse than the Quarians? Because the Quarians wanted to wipe out 100% of the Geth, not 99%(numbers!). Also, the geth gained consciousness and were immediately attacked, they didn't have thousands of years to develop a system of morals, they were just attacked, and thrown into a fight for their existence, at the dawn of their intelligence(hence, the "morning war").

Moater boat, you've said earlier that you consider the geth to be just machines, yet you consider them to have consciously done something morally wrong? Please elaborate.

Oh, and the current number of Quarians is 17 million, do we know if thats the number that left? Because I remember Tali saying that Quarian couples are only allowed one child. This would not maintain a stable population.

I'm not saying the Geth have faulty morals. In fact, if anything I would say that a lack of moral code and compassion makes them a significant threat to all life.

Regarding the 17 million. Tali says that couples only have one kid, but also that sometimes incentives are given to couples to have more than one kid, in order to maintain a stable population. We really don't know EXACTLY how many people survived Rannoch and fled. Maybe it was 25 million, maybe it was only 10 million. But we are really just splitting hairs at this point. The fact remains that almost all quarians were wiped out, presumably by the geth.

[WE_Belisarius]

Not this thread again...
Come on, you all know that no side in a war is "right".
Both factions have/had their reasonable motives to shed blood, it is just a matter of the point of view.
In every war the truth is the first victim.

[tractrpl]

T-0pel wrote...

tractrpl wrote...

T-0pel wrote...

1) You dont know what happened, we dont know what happened. There 17 milions Quarins that are now alive, we have no idea how many survived after they left Rannoch. 

The answer is 17 million. It states such in the codex. There's 17 million alive now, and 17 million escaped. 

please send me link I cant find it...

http://masseffect.wi...m/wiki/Geth_War